The Absolute and the Reletive truths are not conditional, it is not about our understanding. they exist, whether we "get it" or not. And we are not seperate from this, never said that. I might say that the "objective of Zen" and human existence on a fundemental level are one and the same, not some enlightened state off in another dimension seperate from others. and if you question my understanding of the self, check my screen name again.......... Wherever i look I can't find me. > > > > The Reletive truth is that things exist here and now in this exact > > moment, not the moment ahead or behind. Form springing up from the > > Universe. It's why the Zen student who stunned his toe exlaimed "I > > will not be fooled again" > > The Absolute truth is that all things, one thing; therefore no > > thing. The Universe springing from form. > > > > Sure, but where did you learn that? Which world do you see without > your eyes? > What truths did you learn without teachers? See, if you truly > understand the > nature of reality, you also realize that thought is both liberation and > cage... > The more one argues for a univberse that springs from form without > individual > identity the more you have refuted the argument that you are trying to put > forth. > One cannot shout for silence and be in harmony.
Dude, I'm not even sure how to respond to this. you start off agreeing with me then attack me, but not the statement. Now you can say whatever you want, don't care. but at least refute the statement while your at it to show me why I"m bullshit. Further,You seem to be caught in extremism. Words and concepts are the way we communicate. If we were face to face, maybe that would be different. Maybe not. But this would be a boring group if no one ever spoke, really wouldn't be a group. So it comes down to this, it is good to be able to clear one's mind and be present, however, real life demands working with others. Thought and words are tools, merely that. It is right understanding of the situation. When I used the word "springs" i used it to illustrate we were talking about one truth and not the other. Emptiness is form, form is emptiness. Absolute is the reletive, the reletive the absolute. It is not my postion the universe springs from us, as this is totally not true. It is not my concept of the universe but the universe itself before me, directly experienced. When I say Universe I do not mean the stars and planets, i mean what they are and all things are. no thing. all is impermenent, what is the nature of form? emptiness. Absolute truth. Form, or reletive truth, is merely "fine particulants" of the universe coming together at a point and time. AKA, Skandhas. Trash heaps. Anatman. Big jade stupa. > > > > > I appreciate what you are saying, but your writing was based on a > supposition, > a construct of "what if?" This allowed me to respond as if the nature of > the problem was > rooted in thought, not in actuality. Fair game. The process would have > been very different > had you expressed the discussion from some specific experience that was > actual...then we > are finitely limited to thoughts and decisions that could in reality have > been taken then, or > things one could do now to make things "better." But, if any of my > students ever pose a > "thought experiment" what-if, I am certainly going to expose the fallacy > of such arguemnts > with the Zen discipline that I used with my response. If a student asked > me, "Zenbob, > what if I were on a boat with only one life preserver, the boat was > sinking, and there were > women and children on board, to whom should I throw the life preserver?" > I would respond with, > "Toss them all life preservers! What kind of cruel person imagines a boat > with only one life preserver > when it has women and children as passengers?" Or I could say, "You only > need to remind them > to fly from the boat, as each of us is actually a beautiful bird." > > That is Zen, folks. I think the process might have been different fi you had of responded initially by saying, "I would have handed him some TP". That would trump my kind words, as I usually don't carry TP around. Guy > > :) > > > > > > > > > > In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Kirbo" <zen2wrk@> wrote: > >> > >> On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 12:34:32 -0800, anatmanwave <anatmanwave@> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > ---If there is no train what just ran over my foot? > >> > > >> > >> Now there is a foot, too? > >> > >> > I answer in the reletive, you come back in the absolute. > >> > >> Not absolutely...I realize that everything is to a degree > > relative, > >> and I did not intend for the comment(s) to sound absolutist, > > but > >> to offer some talking points on the underlying Buddhist > > approach > >> of example via KOANS, since that was the essential topic. > >> > > >> > I fully understand the concept of mental constructs(?). We create > >> > our universe in every moment. But it is the action we take not > > our > >> > understanding of the situation that affects the world around us. > >> > >> Yes, exactly. And I did underscore that principle, and am in > > agreement > >> with this view. > >> > >> > Furthermore good effort does not always mean good results. best > >> > laid plans of mice and men........? > >> > >> Also, no disagreement, as in comment on "sh_t" happens. > > Again, at > >> every layer, > >> as I suggested, we always have some choices to right thought > > and right > >> action... > >> Buddhism and Zen are as close to absolutist on these > > principles. > >> > >> > Just have to go with the flow, > >> > Guy > >> > >> That is the most important final perspective, of course..which > > relates > >> to my > >> comment on ultimate harmony and finding one's own place and > > action in the > >> world... > >> if we keep bumping into things, or thinking that the glass is half > > empty, > >> and then > >> bump into things, that is when rational thinking suggests that we > > might > >> need to alter > >> our thoughts, our habits or our occupation. There can be no doubt > > that > >> the odds of > >> unpleasant results if one is a police officer are likiely much > > higher than > >> if one happens > >> to be a photographer. That does not preclude that a photographer > > is safe > >> from harm, > >> accident or personal tragedy. No one is free from the nature of > > the > >> world. As you say, > >> given that some bad things will happen sometime, it is our > > resulting > >> thoughts and > >> actions in response to these bad things, that most form the next > > layer of > >> our lives. > >> > >> I also try to go with the flow, but realize that at times I am > > responsible > >> for guiding or > >> channeling that flow as smoothly as possible. And believe me, I > > have had > >> my share > >> of recent turbulence to understand the ultimate reality of > > humility about > >> these things! > >> > >> Peace, > >> > >> Zenbob > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: > > http://www.opera.com/mail/ > >> > > > > > > > > > > __________ NOD32 2752 (20071228) Information __________ > > > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > > > > __________ NOD32 2752 (20071228) Information __________ > > > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today! Yahoo! 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