Thank you for your post.  I agree with everything in it.

IN MY OPINION, zen (I spell it with an initial lower case 'z' to 
differentiate it from Zen Buddhism, and to help remind me that it is 
nothing special.  It is not a name of a particular think.  It is not 
a proper noun.) is direct experience of reality.  My shorthand 
version of this is JUST THIS!, or THIS!.  That way I don't have to 
deal with the dualities of direct/non-direct, or explain 
what 'experience' means, or the duality of reality/illusion.  Of 
course even typing 'THIS' leave open the this/non-this duality, but I 
don't know how else to express it in text.  It would be better just 
to slap the floor or remain silent, but that doesn't work too well on 
an internet forum.

I'm not partiularily interested in comparing or contrasting zen and 
Chan, but I am interested in trying to dispel all the misconceptions 
about zen, especially those associated with Zen Buddhism, Buddhism 
and now I guess Chan also.

Thanks for joining the forum.  We've had a lot of participants come 
and go, but you're the first who I think holds almost exactly the 
same opinions about zen and I hold - so far.


--- In, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bill,
> I tend to agree with the thrust of your post, but we need to  
> distinguish between Zen as I think you understand it, as just 
> what actually is, as opposed to the various sects of Japanese Zen  
> considered as sects. True Zen as I believe you use the term is not 
> be found exclusively in any sect, whether those of Japanese Zen or  
> Chinese Chan (though those can be an aid in realization for some).  
> True Zen is wherever one is right here, right now. It is simply  
> unmediated direct experience of reality.
> So really any dispute between Zen and Chan is just a distraction 
> true Zen (or true Chan if you prefer).
> Edgar
> On Sep 5, 2008, at 10:17 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > JMJM and AL,
> >
> > Zen is not a subset of Chan. Chan is a subset of zen.
> >
> > Chan, at least as JMJM represents it, it a religion, a subset of  
> > Buddhism.
> >
> > JMJM is right when he says zen does not have any spirituality.  
> > Spirituality is maya. Karma is maya.
> >
> > Remember, JUST THIS! Zen's difficulty is it is SO SIMPLE and SO  
> > BASIC and SO PURE that it is easy to miss when your rational 
> > is busy being dualistic.
> >
> > JMJM is wrong. Zen is not 'just a mind exercise'. Zen is NO-
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > From: 
> > On Behalf Of Jue Miao Jing Ming - ????
> > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 6:25 AM
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Character Building
> >
> > Hi Al,
> >
> > I would not say that HPZ is NOT Chan, but a subset of Chan.  
> > Besides, we use the term Content instead of Happy in Chan
> >
> > It is not my position nor mission to academically compare Zen 
> > Chan. This road serves no purpose. I will however explain what 
> > is if the readers are interested. Since I brought up the subject  
> > however, I will complete it......
> >
> > I believe Zen could be just a subset of Chan. Zen seems to have 
> > the visible forms -- words, concepts and descriptions of Chan, 
> > not the invisible part of Chan, karma, cause, etc. If so then 
> > is incomplete from my understanding of Chan.
> >
> > Chan deals with everything in the universe, whether it is 
> > as supernatural, unscientific, energy, field, maya, samsara. 
> > is simple and direct. It is taught without words and 
> > And the gate to enter it is absolute stillness and absolute  
> > surrender of ego.
> >
> > JM
> >
> > Fitness63 wrote:
> > From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - > I don't seem to understand your  
> > comment on what
> > I wrote. I don't find them relate to each other.>
> >
> > OK. You say Chan is about karma and liberation? I agree.
> >
> > I think that HAPPY PEOPLE ZEN is what is now being taught in 
> > places in
> > America. It is NO KARMA, just HAPPY PEOPLE no matter what. Just  
> > zazen and BE
> > HAPPY.
> >
> > That is not CHAN. OK?
> >
> >
> > __________ NOD32 3401 (20080829) Information __________
> >
> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> >
> >
> >
> >


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