Bill,

I tend to agree with the thrust of your post, but we need to distinguish between Zen as I think you understand it, as just seeing what actually is, as opposed to the various sects of Japanese Zen considered as sects. True Zen as I believe you use the term is not to be found exclusively in any sect, whether those of Japanese Zen or Chinese Chan (though those can be an aid in realization for some). True Zen is wherever one is right here, right now. It is simply unmediated direct experience of reality.


So really any dispute between Zen and Chan is just a distraction to true Zen (or true Chan if you prefer).

Edgar



On Sep 5, 2008, at 10:17 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

JMJM and AL,

Zen is not a subset of Chan. Chan is a subset of zen.

Chan, at least as JMJM represents it, it a religion, a subset of Buddhism.

JMJM is right when he says zen does not have any spirituality. Spirituality is maya. Karma is maya.

Remember, JUST THIS! Zen's difficulty is it is SO SIMPLE and SO BASIC and SO PURE that it is easy to miss when your rational mind is busy being dualistic.

JMJM is wrong. Zen is not 'just a mind exercise'. Zen is NO-MIND. JUST THIS!

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jue Miao Jing Ming - ????
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 6:25 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Character Building

Hi Al,

I would not say that HPZ is NOT Chan, but a subset of Chan. Besides, we use the term Content instead of Happy in Chan

It is not my position nor mission to academically compare Zen and Chan. This road serves no purpose. I will however explain what Chan is if the readers are interested. Since I brought up the subject however, I will complete it......

I believe Zen could be just a subset of Chan. Zen seems to have all the visible forms -- words, concepts and descriptions of Chan, but not the invisible part of Chan, karma, cause, etc. If so then Zen is incomplete from my understanding of Chan.

Chan deals with everything in the universe, whether it is labeled as supernatural, unscientific, energy, field, maya, samsara. Chan is simple and direct. It is taught without words and formalities. And the gate to enter it is absolute stillness and absolute surrender of ego.

JM

Fitness63 wrote:
From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - > I don't seem to understand your comment on what
I wrote. I don't find them relate to each other.>

OK. You say Chan is about karma and liberation? I agree.

I think that HAPPY PEOPLE ZEN is what is now being taught in many places in America. It is NO KARMA, just HAPPY PEOPLE no matter what. Just zazen and BE
HAPPY.

That is not CHAN. OK?


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