JMJM and AL,

Zen is not a subset of Chan.  Chan is a subset of zen.

Chan, at least as JMJM represents it, it a religion, a subset of Buddhism.

JMJM is right when he says zen does not have any spirituality.  Spirituality is 
maya.  Karma is maya.

Remember, JUST THIS!  Zen's difficulty is it is SO SIMPLE and SO BASIC and SO 
PURE that it is easy to miss when your rational mind is busy being dualistic.

JMJM is wrong.  Zen is not 'just a mind exercise'.  Zen is NO-MIND.  JUST THIS!

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jue Miao 
Jing Ming - ????
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 6:25 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Character Building

Hi Al,  

I would not say that HPZ is NOT Chan, but a subset of Chan.  Besides, we use 
the term Content instead of Happy in Chan

It is not my position nor mission to academically compare Zen and Chan. This 
road serves no purpose. I will however explain what Chan is if the readers are 
interested.   Since I brought up the subject however, I will complete it...... 

I believe Zen could be just a subset of Chan.  Zen seems to have all the 
visible forms -- words, concepts and descriptions of Chan, but not the 
invisible part of Chan,  karma, cause, etc.  If so then Zen is incomplete from 
my understanding of Chan.  

Chan deals with everything in the universe, whether it is labeled as 
supernatural, unscientific, energy, field, maya, samsara.  Chan is simple and 
direct.  It is taught without words and formalities.  And the gate to enter it 
is absolute stillness and absolute surrender of ego.

JM

Fitness63 wrote: 
From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - > I don't seem to understand your comment on what 
I wrote. I don't find them relate to each other.>

OK. You say Chan is about karma and liberation? I agree.

I think that HAPPY PEOPLE ZEN is what is now being taught in many places in 
America. It is NO KARMA, just HAPPY PEOPLE no matter what. Just zazen and BE 
HAPPY.

That is not CHAN. OK? 
 

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