In your post below you stated:
>Causality though does exist and provides the rules which make
>our conscious perspectives and material world view cognitive
>constructs consistent. Thus causality does govern what happens
>in the world of forms.

Why are you so certain that causality does exist and operates according to
some kind of rules?  What kind of rules could those be?  Universal rules?

You stated our concept of the material world, the world of forms, is
observer dependent and 'simply a cognitive construct of our consciousness'.
What is the difference between 'cognitive construct of our consciousness'
and illusion?

In either case, if our concept of the material world is a construct of our
consciousness, why wouldn't you believe our concept of causality is also
only construct of our consciousness; and the supposed rules which in fact
are the defining factors of causality (along with the concept of time) are,
if not completely observer dependent, at best species and perhaps even
socially/culturally dependent, and ultimately illusory? 

This is closer to what I believe...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Edgar Owen
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 8:53 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Zen] consciousness


Not quite. What I'm saying is that consciousness and the material world are
identical. Consciousness is observer dependent perspectives on the material
world from the POV of particular observers and events. Each of these
consciousnesses is all that exists for the particular observer (all is
consciousness only). Our concept of a material world is simply a cognitive
construct of our consciousness, however that construct seems consistent and
sharable thus we may assume it has an independent existence beyond our
particular consciousness though we of course can never actually confirm that
because we can never step outside of consciousness.

Not easy to explain or perhaps understand.

To address your questions: Replace Karma with causality. Karma has moral
implications that are unsubstantiated. Causality though does exist and
provides the rules which make our conscious perspectives and material world
view cognitive constructs consistent. Thus causality does govern what
happens in the world of forms.

As to when we die, the answer is that when you die your consciousness stops
and your body decays (my perspective). On the other hand I can never
experience death since death is the end of experience.

Hope that helps,

On Oct 11, 2008, at 11:00 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:

Thank you.
You seem to say that the world is nothing but universal consciousness.
Material objects and all kinds of living beings are just manifestations
(contents) of the universal consciousness. Maybe I am wrong, but that is an
interesting philosophical discussion.
Whether or not it is relevant to zen, I would like to know the practical
aspects of your theory:
-   Does karma work in the universal consciousness, or whatever you call it?
-   When we die, do we just merge into the universe and lose our individual

--- On Sun, 12/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] consciousness
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 12 October, 2008, 7:46 AM

Well not quite. Personal consciousness is associated with material beings
and disappears with the dissolution of the material form. However if you
read my paper http://EdgarLOwen. com/HardProblem. pdf you will see that my
view is that everything, that is the entire material world, is in fact the
same experiential 'stuff' of consciousness that is the same 'stuff' of human
consciousness just in a different form particular to the material it is
associated with. I.e. a human has human type contents in this consciousness
stuff and a molecule has molecule type contents of it. That's probably not
very clearly stated but the idea is that the interaction of all matter with
other matter amounts to matter's experience of matter which is what the
causal process of reality that continually flows through the present moment
with clock time is. That same flow is experienced as human consciousness by
humans, and mouse consciousness by mice as the details, the contents of
consciousness, depend on the different biological and cognitive structures
of mice and men while the phenomenon of consciousness itself as opposed to
its details is common to both mice and men, and in fact everything in the

So the contents of consciousness will be different for each being and the
contents are the forms that arise in consciousness itself which are
illusion. Whereas consciousness itself, that in which the contents of
consciousness arise is the same for everything in the universe. It is simply
the physical reality of the present moment. So tuning into the pure
consciousness itself, devoid of its contents, is Zen, or satori since the
content forms which are the veils of illusion are no longer present and do
not distract from consciousness itself.

But of course the contents do persist in the material world and so the trick
is to continually recognize these contents for what they are, contents of
pure consciousness, ripples or disturbances in the field of consciousness
itself, so that one doesn't get entangled in the individual forms but always
sees them as contents of the underlying pure consciousness itself. The forms
themselves have no real substance since they are just ripples or
disturbances in what would be the perfect stillness of consciousness itself
devoid of any forms or ripples.

Hope that makes it a little clearer.

As to the OBE, I really haven't felt I had to explain it. It was just
something that happened. In my view it is a fundamental mistake to think
consciousness is located or centered in the physical body, since everything
we see and experience is actually happening in our own head and the idea of
an individual 'self' is just a cognitive construct, so that cognitive
construct can subjectively locate its concept of observer anywhere it wants,
at least temporarily. In that view 'our' consciousness continually pervades
everything that we experience to its furtherest boundaries. Since all that
is experienced is consciousness, consciousness must then be antecedent to
the division between self and not self.

Remember the furtherest boundaries of the horizon are simply our retinas
inside our eyes, and the whole world exists in the nigredo of our brains
(the black obsidian crystal ball which we wish to turn into a perfectly
clear crystal ball brain - unconsciousness into consciousness) , but of
course that means our eyes are the sky and our consciousness in our brains
pervades the entire universe.

Thus the Zen adage: "Awaken the mind, while dwelling nowhere." Which means
wake up and recognize that consciousness is not centered anywhere but
everywhere and transcends the distinction between self and world.


On Oct 11, 2008, at 5:58 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:

Hi Edgar,
I keep an open mind. In your view, does consciousness just disappear, when
we die?
You seemed to say you had an OBE in Japan. How do you explain that based on

--- On Sun, 12/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] consciousness
Date: Sunday, 12 October, 2008, 3:23 AM
Thanks Margie,

Your comments or questions would be welcome.

Much appreciated,

On Oct 11, 2008, at 9:55 AM, roloro1557 wrote:

Hi Edgar-

I am still reading HardProblem - I'm on page 10. So far it is
wonderful! :-)

Margie (roloro1557)

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