Edgar, In your post below you stated: >Causality though does exist and provides the rules which make >our conscious perspectives and material world view cognitive >constructs consistent. Thus causality does govern what happens >in the world of forms.
Why are you so certain that causality does exist and operates according to some kind of rules? What kind of rules could those be? Universal rules? You stated our concept of the material world, the world of forms, is observer dependent and 'simply a cognitive construct of our consciousness'. What is the difference between 'cognitive construct of our consciousness' and illusion? In either case, if our concept of the material world is a construct of our consciousness, why wouldn't you believe our concept of causality is also only construct of our consciousness; and the supposed rules which in fact are the defining factors of causality (along with the concept of time) are, if not completely observer dependent, at best species and perhaps even socially/culturally dependent, and ultimately illusory? This is closer to what I believe...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edgar Owen Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 8:53 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Zen] consciousness Anthony, Not quite. What I'm saying is that consciousness and the material world are identical. Consciousness is observer dependent perspectives on the material world from the POV of particular observers and events. Each of these consciousnesses is all that exists for the particular observer (all is consciousness only). Our concept of a material world is simply a cognitive construct of our consciousness, however that construct seems consistent and sharable thus we may assume it has an independent existence beyond our particular consciousness though we of course can never actually confirm that because we can never step outside of consciousness. Not easy to explain or perhaps understand. To address your questions: Replace Karma with causality. Karma has moral implications that are unsubstantiated. Causality though does exist and provides the rules which make our conscious perspectives and material world view cognitive constructs consistent. Thus causality does govern what happens in the world of forms. As to when we die, the answer is that when you die your consciousness stops and your body decays (my perspective). On the other hand I can never experience death since death is the end of experience. Hope that helps, Edgar On Oct 11, 2008, at 11:00 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: Edgar, Thank you. You seem to say that the world is nothing but universal consciousness. Material objects and all kinds of living beings are just manifestations (contents) of the universal consciousness. Maybe I am wrong, but that is an interesting philosophical discussion. Whether or not it is relevant to zen, I would like to know the practical aspects of your theory: - Does karma work in the universal consciousness, or whatever you call it? - When we die, do we just merge into the universe and lose our individual entities? Regards, Anthony --- On Sun, 12/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Zen] consciousness To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, 12 October, 2008, 7:46 AM Anthony, Well not quite. Personal consciousness is associated with material beings and disappears with the dissolution of the material form. However if you read my paper http://EdgarLOwen. com/HardProblem. pdf you will see that my view is that everything, that is the entire material world, is in fact the same experiential 'stuff' of consciousness that is the same 'stuff' of human consciousness just in a different form particular to the material it is associated with. I.e. a human has human type contents in this consciousness stuff and a molecule has molecule type contents of it. That's probably not very clearly stated but the idea is that the interaction of all matter with other matter amounts to matter's experience of matter which is what the causal process of reality that continually flows through the present moment with clock time is. That same flow is experienced as human consciousness by humans, and mouse consciousness by mice as the details, the contents of consciousness, depend on the different biological and cognitive structures of mice and men while the phenomenon of consciousness itself as opposed to its details is common to both mice and men, and in fact everything in the universe. So the contents of consciousness will be different for each being and the contents are the forms that arise in consciousness itself which are illusion. Whereas consciousness itself, that in which the contents of consciousness arise is the same for everything in the universe. It is simply the physical reality of the present moment. So tuning into the pure consciousness itself, devoid of its contents, is Zen, or satori since the content forms which are the veils of illusion are no longer present and do not distract from consciousness itself. But of course the contents do persist in the material world and so the trick is to continually recognize these contents for what they are, contents of pure consciousness, ripples or disturbances in the field of consciousness itself, so that one doesn't get entangled in the individual forms but always sees them as contents of the underlying pure consciousness itself. The forms themselves have no real substance since they are just ripples or disturbances in what would be the perfect stillness of consciousness itself devoid of any forms or ripples. Hope that makes it a little clearer. As to the OBE, I really haven't felt I had to explain it. It was just something that happened. In my view it is a fundamental mistake to think consciousness is located or centered in the physical body, since everything we see and experience is actually happening in our own head and the idea of an individual 'self' is just a cognitive construct, so that cognitive construct can subjectively locate its concept of observer anywhere it wants, at least temporarily. In that view 'our' consciousness continually pervades everything that we experience to its furtherest boundaries. Since all that is experienced is consciousness, consciousness must then be antecedent to the division between self and not self. Remember the furtherest boundaries of the horizon are simply our retinas inside our eyes, and the whole world exists in the nigredo of our brains (the black obsidian crystal ball which we wish to turn into a perfectly clear crystal ball brain - unconsciousness into consciousness) , but of course that means our eyes are the sky and our consciousness in our brains pervades the entire universe. Thus the Zen adage: "Awaken the mind, while dwelling nowhere." Which means wake up and recognize that consciousness is not centered anywhere but everywhere and transcends the distinction between self and world. Edgar On Oct 11, 2008, at 5:58 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: Hi Edgar, I keep an open mind. In your view, does consciousness just disappear, when we die? You seemed to say you had an OBE in Japan. How do you explain that based on science. Regards, Anthony --- On Sun, 12/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net> wrote: From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net> Subject: Re: [Zen] consciousness To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Date: Sunday, 12 October, 2008, 3:23 AM Thanks Margie, Your comments or questions would be welcome. Much appreciated, Edgar On Oct 11, 2008, at 9:55 AM, roloro1557 wrote: Hi Edgar- I am still reading HardProblem - I'm on page 10. So far it is wonderful! :-) Margie (roloro1557) ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- FROM: Over the hills and far away... . . Don't be an observer of life. Be life. T'ao Shan OldWomansZenChronic les.blogspot. com ________________________________________ Get your preferred Email name! Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail. .com. ________________________________________ Yahoo! Toolbar is now powered with Search Assist. Download it now! __________ NOD32 3510 (20081010) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/