In your post below you stated:
>Causality though does exist and provides the rules which make
>our conscious perspectives and material world view cognitive
>constructs consistent. Thus causality does govern what happens
>in the world of forms.
Why are you so certain that causality does exist and operates
some kind of rules? What kind of rules could those be? Universal
You stated our concept of the material world, the world of forms, is
observer dependent and 'simply a cognitive construct of our
What is the difference between 'cognitive construct of our
In either case, if our concept of the material world is a construct
consciousness, why wouldn't you believe our concept of causality is
only construct of our consciousness; and the supposed rules which
are the defining factors of causality (along with the concept of
if not completely observer dependent, at best species and perhaps even
socially/culturally dependent, and ultimately illusory?
This is closer to what I believe...Bill!
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Of Edgar Owen
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Zen] consciousness
Not quite. What I'm saying is that consciousness and the material
identical. Consciousness is observer dependent perspectives on the
world from the POV of particular observers and events. Each of these
consciousnesses is all that exists for the particular observer (all is
consciousness only). Our concept of a material world is simply a
construct of our consciousness, however that construct seems
sharable thus we may assume it has an independent existence beyond our
particular consciousness though we of course can never actually
because we can never step outside of consciousness.
Not easy to explain or perhaps understand.
To address your questions: Replace Karma with causality. Karma has
implications that are unsubstantiated. Causality though does exist and
provides the rules which make our conscious perspectives and
view cognitive constructs consistent. Thus causality does govern what
happens in the world of forms.
As to when we die, the answer is that when you die your
and your body decays (my perspective). On the other hand I can never
experience death since death is the end of experience.
Hope that helps,
On Oct 11, 2008, at 11:00 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:
You seem to say that the world is nothing but universal consciousness.
Material objects and all kinds of living beings are just
(contents) of the universal consciousness. Maybe I am wrong, but
that is an
interesting philosophical discussion.
Whether or not it is relevant to zen, I would like to know the
aspects of your theory:
- Does karma work in the universal consciousness, or whatever you
- When we die, do we just merge into the universe and lose our
--- On Sun, 12/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] consciousness
Date: Sunday, 12 October, 2008, 7:46 AM
Well not quite. Personal consciousness is associated with material
and disappears with the dissolution of the material form. However
read my paper http://EdgarLOwen. com/HardProblem. pdf you will see
view is that everything, that is the entire material world, is in
same experiential 'stuff' of consciousness that is the same 'stuff'
consciousness just in a different form particular to the material
associated with. I.e. a human has human type contents in this
stuff and a molecule has molecule type contents of it. That's
very clearly stated but the idea is that the interaction of all
other matter amounts to matter's experience of matter which is what
causal process of reality that continually flows through the
with clock time is. That same flow is experienced as human
humans, and mouse consciousness by mice as the details, the
consciousness, depend on the different biological and cognitive
of mice and men while the phenomenon of consciousness itself as
its details is common to both mice and men, and in fact everything
So the contents of consciousness will be different for each being
contents are the forms that arise in consciousness itself which are
illusion. Whereas consciousness itself, that in which the contents of
consciousness arise is the same for everything in the universe. It
the physical reality of the present moment. So tuning into the pure
consciousness itself, devoid of its contents, is Zen, or satori
content forms which are the veils of illusion are no longer present
not distract from consciousness itself.
But of course the contents do persist in the material world and so
is to continually recognize these contents for what they are,
pure consciousness, ripples or disturbances in the field of
itself, so that one doesn't get entangled in the individual forms
sees them as contents of the underlying pure consciousness itself.
themselves have no real substance since they are just ripples or
disturbances in what would be the perfect stillness of
devoid of any forms or ripples.
Hope that makes it a little clearer.
As to the OBE, I really haven't felt I had to explain it. It was just
something that happened. In my view it is a fundamental mistake to
consciousness is located or centered in the physical body, since
we see and experience is actually happening in our own head and the
an individual 'self' is just a cognitive construct, so that cognitive
construct can subjectively locate its concept of observer anywhere
at least temporarily. In that view 'our' consciousness continually
everything that we experience to its furtherest boundaries. Since
is experienced is consciousness, consciousness must then be
the division between self and not self.
Remember the furtherest boundaries of the horizon are simply our
inside our eyes, and the whole world exists in the nigredo of our
(the black obsidian crystal ball which we wish to turn into a
clear crystal ball brain - unconsciousness into consciousness) ,
course that means our eyes are the sky and our consciousness in our
pervades the entire universe.
Thus the Zen adage: "Awaken the mind, while dwelling nowhere."
wake up and recognize that consciousness is not centered anywhere but
everywhere and transcends the distinction between self and world.
On Oct 11, 2008, at 5:58 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:
I keep an open mind. In your view, does consciousness just
You seemed to say you had an OBE in Japan. How do you explain that
--- On Sun, 12/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] consciousness
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
Date: Sunday, 12 October, 2008, 3:23 AM
Your comments or questions would be welcome.
On Oct 11, 2008, at 9:55 AM, roloro1557 wrote:
I am still reading HardProblem - I'm on page 10. So far it is
------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
FROM: Over the hills and far away... . .
Don't be an observer of life. Be life. T'ao Shan
OldWomansZenChronic les.blogspot. com
Get your preferred Email name!
Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail. .com.
Yahoo! Toolbar is now powered with Search Assist. Download it now!
__________ NOD32 3510 (20081010) Information __________
This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.