JMJM, My last post was difficult for you to understand because it was an attempt at a joke, and evidently a pretty poor attempt at that.
What it was meant to convey was that I agree with you that it is difficult to talk about zen with words, but also necessary. Sorry for the confusion...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺å¦ç²¾æ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Sorry, Bill. This kind of wording is difficult for me to understand... JM > > Bill Smart wrote: > > > > Oh! Now I get it...NOT! > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum% 40yahoogroups.com>, > > Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺å¦â¢Ã§Â²Â¾Ã¦ËŽ > > <chan.jmjm@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > "just this" connotes some kind of insistence. "as is" connotes > > > acceptance. In our world of forms and delusional minds, acceptance > > > connotes results in less resistance. It is apparent by now that > > zen may > > > have some Buddhist roots. Words are what we called "convenient > > dharma" > > > or "æâ"¹ä¾¿æ³â¢Ã¢â¬Â. :-) > > > > > > Since zen is the naked core of all religion and faith, it can and > > it > > > must be able to explain all religion and faith, as well as > > reversely, > > > utilize all terms from other faith to explain itself. Therefore > > > categorize some of the terms into zen and not zen is not zen. In > > the > > > world of forms, all is partial, relative and incomplete. > > > > > > Just for your reference as is. :-) > > > JM > > > > > > Bill Smart wrote: > > > > > > > > JMJM, > > > > > > > > I really like 'As Is'. It might be better than 'Just THIS!' to > > > > communicate what I'm trying to describe. As Mayka has recently > > > > pointed out 'Just THIS!' has the dualistic connotation that there > > is > > > > a 'THAT! somewhere. Of course 'As Is' could also be thought to > > have > > > > a dualistic connotation that there is a 'Not As Is', but that's > > the > > > > endemic danger of language. Whenever you open you mouth and spread > > > > words around there's always the danger someone will come along and > > > > trip over them. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Zen_Forum% > > 40yahoogroups.com>, > > > > Jue Miao Jing Ming - èæúÃ¥æâ⢠çòþæÃÅ"à ½ > > > > <chan.jmjm@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > My Dear Bill, > > > > > > > > > > Since there is no YOU, there is truly no one to pick on. :-) > > > > > > > > > > In words, everything that you have said is the same as our > > > > school. :-) > > > > > We use "As Is" instead of "Just This". "As Is" in Chinese > > > > is "Ã¥æââ¬Å¡Ã¤Ã¾â⬠ââ∠"ïüà ' > > > > > which is the name of Buddha. Every form has its causes to be > > > > > manifested, therefore, every form is "As Is", meaning complete > > > > > synchronization. The difference between zen and Chan, is in the > > > > > invisible and the unwritten. We emphasize the importance of the > > > > energy > > > > > of "As Is", which zen could mean just on the form. When we say > > > > be "As > > > > > Is", we mean the energy which manifest the form and not the > > > > transient > > > > > form. Only when there is energy, there is life. And therefore > > > > there is > > > > > spirit. > > > > > > > > > > I understand fully why you take so much time to answer each > > post. > > > > You > > > > > Do have my deepest respect. Yet, awakening must come from within > > > > and > > > > > quite difficult to be taught. > > > > > > > > > > Please practice with chi, you shall enter into a different > > realm. > > > > > Everything in this universe is As Is. There is no maya, if we > > > > don't > > > > > think. No matter what teachers or books say. Everything we can > > > > > experience, we must not ignore. When one's heart is open, he > > meets > > > > > Buddha, meaning universal truth. > > > > > > > > > > There is nothing to pick or choose. Everything is As Is. > > > > > JM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill Smart wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > JMJM, > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for your post. I really never thought you > > were 'picking on' > > > > > > me. Many times I thought you were challenging my postings > > which is > > > > > > good for me and good for the forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > I was so in-tune with a couple of your paragraphs below that I > > > > will > > > > > > copy them here: > > > > > > > > > > > > >Chan/zen is the core of all spirituality, because of > > > > > > > its simplicity. It is just a naked connectivity of one's > > spirit > > > > > > with > > > > > > > that of the universe. It is just a formless, formality less, > > > > > > wordless > > > > > > > spirituality. There is no robe, no shaving head, no bible. > > Any > > > > > > > religion can dress it any way they prefer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As long as the practitioner is truly and spiritually in > > touch > > > > his > > > > > > true > > > > > > > self internally and with that of the universe externally, > > > > nothing > > > > > > else > > > > > > > matters. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All labels and descriptions existed for a reason. They are > > all > > > > > > forms. > > > > > > > Forms are all relative and pertinent to that particular > > moment > > > > > > only. We > > > > > > > don't have to compare, accept or reject. These actions in > > the > > > > > > knowledge > > > > > > > domain does not relate to our well being whatsoever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the end, be liberated from all sufferings, be content > > with > > > > every > > > > > > > moment is the only thing matters. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is exactly what I've been trying to say. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll admit that I may be hung up on the rejections of forms. I > > > > know > > > > > > that forms are relative and transitory as you point out, but > > when > > > > I > > > > > > see them posted I feel like I just have to respond: 'That's > > just a > > > > > > form! That's not important! That's just the finger! That's > > not the > > > > > > moon...the moon is Just THIS! > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again for your post...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Zen_Forum% > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, > > > > > > Jue Miao Jing Ming - ÃÆ'èÃâæÃâúÃÆ'ÃÂ¥Ãâæâââ¬Å¾Ã¢ > > ÃÆ'çÃâòÃâþÃÆ'æÃâ¹Ã "Ãâ¦Ã½ > > > > > > <chan.jmjm@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill and Mayka, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I love the sincerity, honesty and warmth of your post. > > Instead > > > > of > > > > > > > picking on Bill, which I am guilty of, I like to share with > > you > > > > my > > > > > > > experience of Chan/zen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Historically, in most of the written words, Chan is a > > Chinese > > > > > > invention > > > > > > > regarding BodhiDharma as the founder or the First > > Patriarch. He > > > > > > came > > > > > > > from the linage of Kasyapa, who were told to teach without > > words > > > > > > and > > > > > > > formalities. So yes, Chan has Buddhism DNA. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gradually however, Taoist influenced Chan. Compare the Shin- > > Shin > > > > > > Ming > > > > > > > by the Third Patriarch of Chan with that of Tao-Te-Chin by > > Lao > > > > Tzu, > > > > > > the > > > > > > > founder of Taoism. They are almost similar in content. In > > other > > > > > > words, > > > > > > > words are useless. Essence is in the synchronization of > > spirit, > > > > or > > > > > > chi > > > > > > > in Chinese. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because the Taoist meditative technique is more effective > > and > > > > > > Buddhist > > > > > > > teaching is more popular, gradually Chan meditative practice > > > > became > > > > > > more > > > > > > > Taoist, such as QiGong, acupuncture, etc., Yet Chan still > > > > utilizes > > > > > > > Buddhist terms for describing spiritual experience. Chan is > > > > quite > > > > > > a hybrid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since the Sixth Patriarch, Chan split into the sudden > > awakening > > > > in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > south and the gradual awakening in the north. I have a huge > > > > > > linage > > > > > > > book given to me by my Teacher. It listed every patriarch > > in the > > > > > > linage > > > > > > > with some of the recent records destroyed by the communist. > > > > > > Northern > > > > > > > Chan was passed to Japan and pronounced zen about 700 years > > > > later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because its 2,000 year history, there are variation in the > > > > > > linages. > > > > > > > Some are more Buddhist and some are more Taoist and some are > > > > > > neutral. > > > > > > > The essence and bulk of Chan, however, are actually quite > > well > > > > > > > maintained in the at-home practices. Through out Chinese > > > > history, > > > > > > most > > > > > > > scholars, court officials practices Chan. Because they are > > the > > > > > > most > > > > > > > suitable candidates. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with Bill, Chan/zen is the core of all spirituality, > > > > > > because of > > > > > > > its simplicity. It is just a naked connectivity of one's > > spirit > > > > > > with > > > > > > > that of the universe. It is just a formless, formality less, > > > > > > wordless > > > > > > > spirituality. There is no robe, no shaving head, no bible. > > Any > > > > > > > religion can dress it any way they prefer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As long as the practitioner is truly and spiritually in > > touch > > > > his > > > > > > true > > > > > > > self internally and with that of the universe externally, > > > > nothing > > > > > > else > > > > > > > matters. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All labels and descriptions existed for a reason. They are > > all > > > > > > forms. > > > > > > > Forms are all relative and pertinent to that particular > > moment > > > > > > only. We > > > > > > > don't have to compare, accept or reject. These actions in > > the > > > > > > knowledge > > > > > > > domain does not relate to our well being whatsoever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the end, be liberated from all sufferings, be content > > with > > > > every > > > > > > > moment is the only thing matters. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A bow to all, > > > > > > > JM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill Smart wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mayka, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your very candid and profound post. I > > appreciate > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > sharing with the forum your admiration for Thich Nhat > > Hanh. > > > > You > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > representing him and his teachings very, very well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please remember that I don't get your posts in my email, > > and I > > > > > > don't > > > > > > > > always check the website. So, if you have a post you want > > to > > > > > > direct > > > > > > > > specifically to me or to assure my awareness of the post, > > > > please > > > > > > > > email it to me directly as you have in the past. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My comments are embedded in your post below: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Zen_Forum% > > > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>, > > > > > > > > "Mayka" <flordeloto@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have no idea if Thich Nhat Hanh is a self proclaimed > > > > Buddhist > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > not. Knowing him a little bit I can not see him doing > > any > > > > > > > > > proclamation about anything for he's a very wise, sweet, > > > > humble > > > > > > > > > profoundly peaceful man. I know about him that he has > > turn > > > > round > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > dharma wheel and created a new way slightly different > > way > > > > > > tradition > > > > > > > > > from the tradition he comes from. This is natural, the > > > > dharma is > > > > > > > > > something alive which comes first from guiding books and > > > > > > education > > > > > > > > > and becames through daily direct experience practice a > > > > living > > > > > > > > dharma. > > > > > > > > > I can say for sure about him that whatever he teaches is > > > > > > something > > > > > > > > > that he has experienced first by himself. He won't ever > > talk > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > > something that he has not experienced first. In fact one > > > > amongst > > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > multi remarkable skills is to reduce to the minimum the > > use > > > > of > > > > > > > > words > > > > > > > > > that can create distraction in the mind and using words > > > > that are > > > > > > > > very > > > > > > > > > simple but a smack to the intelectual mind, > > individualism > > > > and > > > > > > ego. > > > > > > > > A > > > > > > > > > person who is looking for sophisticated discourses and > > candy > > > > > > words > > > > > > > > > would find Thic Nhat Hanh tedious and boring. Or on the > > > > other > > > > > > > > hand, > > > > > > > > > a perosn who can also be intelectual but has reached to > > > > > > conclusion > > > > > > > > > that intelectuality can be a boundary when this is not > > used > > > > in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > appropiate way, then that person, if receptive enough, > > would > > > > > > find > > > > > > > > > Thich Nhat Hanh a very enlightened person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My direct experience about him is that he is a living > > > > Buddha. I > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > sense, touch and see that in all his body language, his > > > > living > > > > > > > > > dharma, his energy, in each action he does.... When he > > pass > > > > on > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > dharma he doesn't pass on just words but also pass on > > his > > > > direct > > > > > > > > > experience about it!. So the words become like something > > > > very > > > > > > > > lively > > > > > > > > > and real in him. He never talks about something that he > > has > > > > not > > > > > > > > > experiencing first by himself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you again for your vivid description of Thich Nhat > > Hanh > > > > and > > > > > > > > your impression of him. He is honored to have you as a > > > > student. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the things you've said above rings especially true > > for > > > > this > > > > > > > > forum: living dharma cannot be expressed by words alone - > > > > > > especially > > > > > > > > in only written text. It's only from face-to-face contact > > with > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > as you describe that you can fully appreciate their total > > > > > > absorption > > > > > > > > in the dharma. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The tradition he teaches I'm not sure but I'm under the > > > > > > impresion > > > > > > > > > that has its roots in Mahayana Buddhism. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zen Buddhism does have it's roots in Mahayana Buddhism. > > Some > > > > > > beleive > > > > > > > > Zen is a type of Mahayana Buddhism, and some beleive Zen > > is > > > > the > > > > > > > > evolution (culmination) of Mahayana Buddhim and is a > > branch > > > > of its > > > > > > > > own. I assum Thich Nhat Hanh being Vietnamese would have > > > > grown up > > > > > > > > under the influence of Theravada Buddhism, but anyway > > > > Theravada is > > > > > > > > not mutually exclusive from Mahayana Buddhsim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you and I both know and have said repeatedly, none of > > these > > > > > > names > > > > > > > > or terms are really important. I usually only bring these > > up > > > > in > > > > > > > > response to someone else's post referring to some specific > > > > type of > > > > > > > > Buddhism. I'm not really overly concerned with Buddhism. > > All > > > > you > > > > > > > > Buddhists can give it what ever names, and divide it up > > into > > > > > > whatever > > > > > > > > categories you want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have never hear before zen without the influence of > > > > buddhism > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > having as buddhism in its root. Interesting also the > > > > simplicity > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > seem to follow your own practice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know what you say is true. Most people (99.9%?) > > inextricably > > > > > > > > assocaiate zen and Buddhism. Some think it is just one of > > the > > > > many > > > > > > > > branches of Buddhism. Some, like the Vispassana Buddhists > > > > here in > > > > > > > > Thailand, think Zen is not a part of Buddhism at all - > > more > > > > like a > > > > > > > > cult, a derranged and impure psuedo-Buddhism. Some think > > of > > > > Zen as > > > > > > > > the culmination of all Buddhism - the most pure form. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think of zen as pre-dating Buddhism, Hinduism, Judiasm, > > > > > > > > Christianity and all other religions. I think of zen as > > the > > > > core > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > most other religions, and these other religions, including > > > > > > Buddhism, > > > > > > > > are zen with a lot of extra crap stuck all over it. In a > > lot > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > religions the extra crap is so thick that the zen core is > > > > totally > > > > > > > > obsucured. I do think that in Zen Buddhism, even with all > > the > > > > crap > > > > > > > > attached, at least the zen core is recognizable and > > > > accessible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I like from it [Bill's zen practice] how direct is and > > > > > > > > > its simplicity. I also like from it how open is to > > > > criticism, > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > the fact that one can talk about positve things and > > negative > > > > > > > > things > > > > > > > > > happening to one in a very open way. In constrast to the > > > > > > profound > > > > > > > > > wisdom from Thich Nhat Hanh I have always found > > difficult to > > > > > > relate > > > > > > > > > myself in the non monastic sanghas due to its kind of > > > > Disneyland > > > > > > > > way > > > > > > > > > of doing. I certainly share with you that as a > > practicioner > > > > I > > > > > > don't > > > > > > > > > like to wave but to deal with what it comes as it comes > > > > alone. > > > > > > > > > Though, I do lack of the mental stability over my > > emotions > > > > and > > > > > > > > > solidity you seem to have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also feel a close connection with you, even though we > > often > > > > > > > > disagree, or at least seem to disagree. I respect your > > > > perspective > > > > > > > > and enjoy your posts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You say that you practice from the perspective "Just > > This". > > > > > > > > But "Just > > > > > > > > > This" can not exist without "Just That". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your statement above is actually true. As soon as you > > > > say 'this', > > > > > > > > you imply there is a 'that'. This is a good example of > > > > dualistic > > > > > > > > thinking, but something that is all but impossible to > > extract > > > > from > > > > > > > > our language. Language ASSUMES and is based on dualism. > > This > > > > is > > > > > > why > > > > > > > > zen masters often refrain from giving language-based > > answers > > > > to > > > > > > > > questions like 'What is Buddha Nature?'. As soon as you > > open > > > > your > > > > > > > > mouth to speak, you're lost. So what do they do? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sometimes they do use language, but in such a non- > > ordinary way > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > the listener cannot take their reponose literaly. > > Examples of > > > > > > these > > > > > > > > are 'mu', or 'the cypress tree in the garden', or 'dried > > shit > > > > on a > > > > > > > > stick'. Sometimes they just yell something that is not a > > word > > > > at > > > > > > > > all, like 'Katz!' or 'Wah!'. Since these are not words > > they > > > > cannot > > > > > > > > be misunderstood. Sometimes they don't speak but just > > slap the > > > > > > > > floor, or turn around and walk away. They do avoid using > > > > ordinary > > > > > > > > langauage if at all possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you and I were face-to-face and your were to ask me > > about > > > > > > Buddha > > > > > > > > Nature I would not say 'Just THIS!'. I would demostrate > > Buddha > > > > > > > > Nature. The best way I figured out how to do this in > > writing > > > > like > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > this forum is to type Just THIS! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > zen or buddhism are not bigger or smaller. They may be > > > > different > > > > > > > > > ways in which the dharma is transmitted and nothing > > else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I say zen is smaller than Buddhism, I mean zen is the > > > > core > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > Buddhism (or Hinduism or Christianity) is the packaging. > > Like > > > > zen > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > the marrow and Buddhsim is the bone which contains but > > hides > > > > the > > > > > > > > marrow, or maybe even Buddhism is the entire body. It's > > hard > > > > to > > > > > > get > > > > > > > > to the marrow if you have to hack through the body and the > > > > bone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm truly happy to see you active in the list. Sorry if > > we > > > > can't > > > > > > > > > help oneselves by letting you lurking. I suppose we all > > > > miss you > > > > > > > > > very much. The zen forum is not the same without you, > > JM, > > > > Mike, > > > > > > > > > Edgar.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A respectuos bow to you > > > > > > > > > Mayka > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > El gusto es mio... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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