Edgar, In teaching words, they are the same. Why is there the "shout", the "stick", the robe and the rituals? :-)
Actually, in China, some of the linages have the same issues. As you know, this is the dark age of spirituality. :-( JM Edgar Owen wrote: > > JM, > > > If northern chan was the gradual awakening and Japanese zen comes from > that why does most Japanese Zen emphasize sudden, not gradual awakening? > > Edgar > > > > On Dec 1, 2008, at 9:33 PM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote: > >> Hi Bill and Mayka, >> >> I love the sincerity, honesty and warmth of your post. Instead of >> picking on Bill, which I am guilty of, I like to share with you my >> experience of Chan/zen. >> >> Historically, in most of the written words, Chan is a Chinese invention >> regarding BodhiDharma as the founder or the First Patriarch. He came >> from the linage of Kasyapa, who were told to teach without words and >> formalities. So yes, Chan has Buddhism DNA. >> >> Gradually however, Taoist influenced Chan. Compare the Shin-Shin Ming >> by the Third Patriarch of Chan with that of Tao-Te-Chin by Lao Tzu, the >> founder of Taoism. They are almost similar in content. In other words, >> words are useless. Essence is in the synchronization of spirit, or chi >> in Chinese. >> >> Because the Taoist meditative technique is more effective and Buddhist >> teaching is more popular, gradually Chan meditative practice became more >> Taoist, such as QiGong, acupuncture, etc., Yet Chan still utilizes >> Buddhist terms for describing spiritual experience. Chan is quite a >> hybrid. >> >> Since the Sixth Patriarch, Chan split into the sudden awakening in the >> south and the gradual awakening in the north. I have a huge linage >> book given to me by my Teacher. It listed every patriarch in the linage >> with some of the recent records destroyed by the communist. Northern >> Chan was passed to Japan and pronounced zen about 700 years later. >> >> Because its 2,000 year history, there are variation in the linages. >> Some are more Buddhist and some are more Taoist and some are neutral. >> The essence and bulk of Chan, however, are actually quite well >> maintained in the at-home practices. Through out Chinese history, most >> scholars, court officials practices Chan. Because they are the most >> suitable candidates. >> >> I agree with Bill, Chan/zen is the core of all spirituality, because of >> its simplicity. It is just a naked connectivity of one's spirit with >> that of the universe. It is just a formless, formality less, wordless >> spirituality. There is no robe, no shaving head, no bible. Any >> religion can dress it any way they prefer. >> >> As long as the practitioner is truly and spiritually in touch his true >> self internally and with that of the universe externally, nothing else >> matters. >> >> All labels and descriptions existed for a reason. They are all forms. >> Forms are all relative and pertinent to that particular moment only. We >> don't have to compare, accept or reject. These actions in the knowledge >> domain does not relate to our well being whatsoever. >> >> In the end, be liberated from all sufferings, be content with every >> moment is the only thing matters. >> >> A bow to all, >> JM >> >> Bill Smart wrote: >> > >> > Mayka, >> > >> > Thank you for your very candid and profound post. I appreciate your >> > sharing with the forum your admiration for Thich Nhat Hanh. You are >> > representing him and his teachings very, very well. >> > >> > Please remember that I don't get your posts in my email, and I don't >> > always check the website. So, if you have a post you want to direct >> > specifically to me or to assure my awareness of the post, please >> > email it to me directly as you have in the past. >> > >> > My comments are embedded in your post below: >> > >> > --- In [email protected] >> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, >> > "Mayka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > > >> > > Bill; >> > > >> > > I have no idea if Thich Nhat Hanh is a self proclaimed Buddhist or >> > > not. Knowing him a little bit I can not see him doing any >> > > proclamation about anything for he's a very wise, sweet, humble >> > > profoundly peaceful man. I know about him that he has turn round >> > the >> > > dharma wheel and created a new way slightly different way tradition >> > > from the tradition he comes from. This is natural, the dharma is >> > > something alive which comes first from guiding books and education >> > > and becames through daily direct experience practice a living >> > dharma. >> > > I can say for sure about him that whatever he teaches is something >> > > that he has experienced first by himself. He won't ever talk about >> > > something that he has not experienced first. In fact one amongst >> > his >> > > multi remarkable skills is to reduce to the minimum the use of >> > words >> > > that can create distraction in the mind and using words that are >> > very >> > > simple but a smack to the intelectual mind, individualism and ego. >> > A >> > > person who is looking for sophisticated discourses and candy words >> > > would find Thic Nhat Hanh tedious and boring. Or on the other >> > hand, >> > > a perosn who can also be intelectual but has reached to conclusion >> > > that intelectuality can be a boundary when this is not used in the >> > > appropiate way, then that person, if receptive enough, would find >> > > Thich Nhat Hanh a very enlightened person. >> > > >> > > My direct experience about him is that he is a living Buddha. I >> > can >> > > sense, touch and see that in all his body language, his living >> > > dharma, his energy, in each action he does.... When he pass on his >> > > dharma he doesn't pass on just words but also pass on his direct >> > > experience about it!. So the words become like something very >> > lively >> > > and real in him. He never talks about something that he has not >> > > experiencing first by himself. >> > > >> > >> > Thank you again for your vivid description of Thich Nhat Hanh and >> > your impression of him. He is honored to have you as a student. >> > >> > One of the things you've said above rings especially true for this >> > forum: living dharma cannot be expressed by words alone - especially >> > in only written text. It's only from face-to-face contact with some >> > as you describe that you can fully appreciate their total absorption >> > in the dharma. >> > >> > > The tradition he teaches I'm not sure but I'm under the impresion >> > > that has its roots in Mahayana Buddhism. >> > > >> > >> > Zen Buddhism does have it's roots in Mahayana Buddhism. Some beleive >> > Zen is a type of Mahayana Buddhism, and some beleive Zen is the >> > evolution (culmination) of Mahayana Buddhim and is a branch of its >> > own. I assum Thich Nhat Hanh being Vietnamese would have grown up >> > under the influence of Theravada Buddhism, but anyway Theravada is >> > not mutually exclusive from Mahayana Buddhsim. >> > >> > As you and I both know and have said repeatedly, none of these names >> > or terms are really important. I usually only bring these up in >> > response to someone else's post referring to some specific type of >> > Buddhism. I'm not really overly concerned with Buddhism. All you >> > Buddhists can give it what ever names, and divide it up into whatever >> > categories you want. >> > >> > > I have never hear before zen without the influence of buddhism or >> > > having as buddhism in its root. Interesting also the simplicity you >> > > seem to follow your own practice. >> > > >> > >> > I know what you say is true. Most people (99.9%?) inextricably >> > assocaiate zen and Buddhism. Some think it is just one of the many >> > branches of Buddhism. Some, like the Vispassana Buddhists here in >> > Thailand, think Zen is not a part of Buddhism at all - more like a >> > cult, a derranged and impure psuedo-Buddhism. Some think of Zen as >> > the culmination of all Buddhism - the most pure form. >> > >> > I think of zen as pre-dating Buddhism, Hinduism, Judiasm, >> > Christianity and all other religions. I think of zen as the core of >> > most other religions, and these other religions, including Buddhism, >> > are zen with a lot of extra crap stuck all over it. In a lot of the >> > religions the extra crap is so thick that the zen core is totally >> > obsucured. I do think that in Zen Buddhism, even with all the crap >> > attached, at least the zen core is recognizable and accessible. >> > >> > >I like from it [Bill's zen practice] how direct is and >> > > its simplicity. I also like from it how open is to criticism, and >> > > the fact that one can talk about positve things and negative >> > things >> > > happening to one in a very open way. In constrast to the profound >> > > wisdom from Thich Nhat Hanh I have always found difficult to relate >> > > myself in the non monastic sanghas due to its kind of Disneyland >> > way >> > > of doing. I certainly share with you that as a practicioner I don't >> > > like to wave but to deal with what it comes as it comes alone. >> > > Though, I do lack of the mental stability over my emotions and >> > > solidity you seem to have. >> > > >> > >> > I also feel a close connection with you, even though we often >> > disagree, or at least seem to disagree. I respect your perspective >> > and enjoy your posts. >> > >> > > You say that you practice from the perspective "Just This". >> > But "Just >> > > This" can not exist without "Just That". >> > > >> > >> > Your statement above is actually true. As soon as you say 'this', >> > you imply there is a 'that'. This is a good example of dualistic >> > thinking, but something that is all but impossible to extract from >> > our language. Language ASSUMES and is based on dualism. This is why >> > zen masters often refrain from giving language-based answers to >> > questions like 'What is Buddha Nature?'. As soon as you open your >> > mouth to speak, you're lost. So what do they do? >> > >> > Sometimes they do use language, but in such a non-ordinary way that >> > the listener cannot take their reponose literaly. Examples of these >> > are 'mu', or 'the cypress tree in the garden', or 'dried shit on a >> > stick'. Sometimes they just yell something that is not a word at >> > all, like 'Katz!' or 'Wah!'. Since these are not words they cannot >> > be misunderstood. Sometimes they don't speak but just slap the >> > floor, or turn around and walk away. They do avoid using ordinary >> > langauage if at all possible. >> > >> > If you and I were face-to-face and your were to ask me about Buddha >> > Nature I would not say 'Just THIS!'. I would demostrate Buddha >> > Nature. The best way I figured out how to do this in writing like on >> > this forum is to type Just THIS! >> > >> > > zen or buddhism are not bigger or smaller. They may be different >> > > ways in which the dharma is transmitted and nothing else. >> > > >> > >> > When I say zen is smaller than Buddhism, I mean zen is the core and >> > Buddhism (or Hinduism or Christianity) is the packaging. Like zen is >> > the marrow and Buddhsim is the bone which contains but hides the >> > marrow, or maybe even Buddhism is the entire body. It's hard to get >> > to the marrow if you have to hack through the body and the bone. >> > >> > > I'm truly happy to see you active in the list. Sorry if we can't >> > > help oneselves by letting you lurking. I suppose we all miss you >> > > very much. The zen forum is not the same without you, JM, Mike, >> > > Edgar.... >> > > >> > > A respectuos bow to you >> > > Mayka >> > > >> > >> > El gusto es mio... >> > >> > ...Bill! >> > >> > >> > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
