"If you are `liberated', are not `picking and choosing', then actions are just 
actions.  It's up to someone else to decide whether they fit their own 
particular definition of `compassionate' or not – and maybe even to measure it."

You say that actions are just actions for the liberated.  If this is so, what 
is causing the actions to arise if not from the previous moment of the illusory 
mental continuum?  If actions are just actions, then the liberated make no 
valuations of anything and are just reactive to the external causes?  Does a 
liberated not pick and choose to have a cup of tea, or decide to eat?  Actions 
are not just actions as different actions have different effects in the world 
of illusion.  You speak from a view outside the manifest world of illusion 
which is contra to the way the illusion functions.  Compassion like gravity is 
a measurable thing, not based on mere subjective interpretation.  The world may 
see it as that, but that does not make it so.  Compassion is necessary a mind 
that sees others suffering and puts forth effort to free them from it.  
Compassion is not a single or collection of compassionate acts, but a 
spontaneous mind that these arise from.  This mind is a functioning thing much 
like a car is a functioning thing, so just as with a valid mind a liberated 
person can say the car is not working because it will not start, so too can a 
liberated mind say that act is not compassion.  You make compassion into some 
illusion within the illusion.  A car is an illusion yes, but it is seen and 
functions as objective reality.  Compassion is no different, but when you say 
"they fit their own particular definition of `compassionate' or not" you turn 
compassion into a subjective reality which is not so.  Compassion as a 
subjective reality is an ignorant view that is held by many worldly beings.  It 
can be seen and measured in the illusion.  From compassion even to the 
unliberated arises increased happiness and decreased suffering in the life and 
those around the individual.  This can be analyzed and measured.  Buddha said 
compassion and liberation are two different things.   A liberated being who has 
no valuation on anything of actions and effects , yet chooses foods to eat and 
places to go is a contradiction.  

With zen practice we can recognize these illusions as illusions and loose our 
attachment to them; so in practice what you call `compassion' reverts to where 
it's always been, in our first and only nature
Compassion is in our true nature, so too is all illusions.  Compassion is an 
illusion just as anger however to say that those who become one with their true 
nature are compassion or have no need to display it is false.  Compassion is 
our true illusory appearing nature when all self grasping ignorance has 
subsided.  When there is even the subtlest self grasping then our ultimate 
nature is not appearing correctly in the illusion and views such as yours 
arise.  Buddha described both, but you maintain what you believe through your 
own experience, ignoring the fact that your experience may be faulted.  A Foe 
Destroyer who is liberated holds the same Buddha nature view and is blind to 
the very subtle self grasping ignorance they are under.  They will never suffer 
it, but are still ignorant to it.  You say in zen you loose attachments by 
seeing illusions as illusions yet you are attached to a view of self.  Another 
compassionate being also sees illusions as illusions and has no attachment to 
them, but from their mind of illusory compassion arises peace for others.  
There is a difference in liberated beings in the world of illusion which is 
what is seen by others.  When one is free from the illusion there are only 
others left as the individual no longer posits a self.  It is when this 
liberated being projects this view of no self onto others that the flaw arises. 
 It is to these others that a liberated being should do more than have a cup of 
tea.  If everything is at it is, then why did you practice zen?  What is the 
purpose?  To free your individual self?  Why put forth effort to free your 
individual self then deny the need for effort to free others?


--- In, <billsm...@...> wrote:
> Maitreya003,
> My comments are embedded below:
> From: [] On Behalf
> Of maitreya003
> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 10:35 AM
> To:
> Subject: [Zen] Re: Compassion
> [Bill!...from a previous post]  "The point for this thread is that this
> thinking of, and perhaps acting for
> yourself or others is spontenous and not a result of any hope for reward or
> fear
> of punishment "
> This is so. There should be no expectation or fear as the cause of
> compassionate actions, but there is a state of being to which compassion
> arises naturally.
> [Bill!]  Agreed, but then it is not called compassion.
> [Bill!...from a previous post]  "like satisfying an internal goal or
> external rule to be compassionate."
> Correct also no need to follow an external goal, however there are acts of
> compassion and ones that are not of compassion.
> [Bill!] There are no acts of compassion done.  There are acts of compassion
> observed by others.
> Acts of compassion are not a rule but they are identifiable.
> [Bill!] Acts of Compassion may be identifiable by others, but if you are not
> applying judgment there are no different qualities in one act as opposed to
> another act to identify.
> Much like gravity functions, and the laws of physics function and are able
> to be measured and validated, so too compassion is a functioning thing.
> [Bill!] .and Compassion can probably be measured by an observer just as
> gravity can be measured: 'a little compassion', 'a lot of compassion',
> 'don't give a shit'?  How would you measure it?  Perhaps 'normal' compassion
> could be referred to as just 'C', and then twice as much compassion could be
> referred to as '2-C's'.  Maybe you could tear compassion apart and find out
> how it works.  Then you could quantify it better by measuring it's parts -
> like gravity: 32ft/sec/sec?
> Compassion is not a 'functioning thing'.  It's just a label/name we put on
> one of our many illusory discriminations.
> Not all actions are compassion, not all liberated actions are compassion. 
> [Bill!] If you're 'picking and choosing' among illusions of the quality of
> actions, then yes - some are compassionate and some are not.  If you are
> 'liberated', are not 'picking and choosing', then actions are just actions.
> It's up to someone else to decide whether they fit their own particular
> definition of 'compassionate' or not - and maybe even to measure it. 
> I'm now back from Kuala Lumpur.Bill!
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
> database 5328 (20100731) __________
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.


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