My comments are embedded below:
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 11:24 PM
Subject: [Zen] Re: Compassion
[Bill!...from a previous post] "If you are `liberated', are not `picking
and choosing', then actions are just actions. It's up to someone else to
decide whether they fit their own particular definition of `compassionate'
or not - and maybe even to measure it."
You say that actions are just actions for the liberated.
If this is so, what is causing the actions to arise if not from the
previous moment of the illusory mental continuum?
[Bill!] No cause, no effect, no previous moment. Just now, Just THIS!
If actions are just actions, then the liberated make no valuations of
anything and are just reactive to the external causes?
[Bill!] No valuations. No causes, no effect (reactions), no external, no
internal. Just THIS!
Does a liberated not pick and choose to have a cup of tea, or decide to eat?
[Bill!] Not picking and choosing, we drink tea, we eat.
Actions are not just actions as different actions have different effects in
the world of illusion. You speak from a view outside the manifest world of
illusion which is contra to the way the illusion functions.
[Bill!] You speak from a view inside the world of illusions. Let them
dissolve into nothingness and then speak.
Compassion like gravity is a measurable thing, not based on mere subjective
[Bill!] What subjective measurement would you put on compassion? What
objective measurement would you put on compassion? What do you have to say
of compassion when the duality of subject and object dissolve?
The world may see it as that, but that does not make it so. Compassion is
necessary a mind that sees others suffering and puts forth effort to free
them from it.
[Bill!] Without self there are no others. Without valuation there is no
suffering. Without enslavement (attachment) there is no freedom. Without
effort all things exist.
Compassion is not a single or collection of compassionate acts, but a
spontaneous mind that these arise from.
[Bill!] Compassion does indeed arise from the mind, but like all products of
the mind, is not spontaneous. Spontaneous is before mind, before self,
before duality, before valuations, before compassion.
This mind is a functioning thing much like a car is a functioning thing, so
just as with a valid mind a liberated person can say the car is not working
because it will not start, so too can a liberated mind say that act is not
[Bill!] A car is used to go from one place to another. When you realize
that one place is no better than any other , attachment to the car
dissolves. The car is still there, parked in the garage. You can use it
when you want, like maybe to design a software system or build a bridge.
When you're done you park it back in the garage. You don't live in your
You make compassion into some illusion within the illusion.
[Bill!] Compassion is an illusion. I'm not sure what 'illusion within the
illusion' refers to, but I did also bring in the concept of attachment to
illusions - like attachment to compassion. Is that what you mean?
A car is an illusion yes, but it is seen and functions as objective
[Bill!] See my response above.
Compassion is no different, but when you say "they fit their own particular
definition of `compassionate' or not" you turn compassion into a subjective
reality which is not so.
[Bill!] Compassion is an illusion. All illusions are subjective in the
sense that they are products of our mind which creates dualisms - such as
the dualistic set object/subject, or self/other, or good/bad, or
Compassion as a subjective reality is an ignorant view that is held by many
[Bill!] I am definitely a worldly being. What are you?
It can be seen and measured in the illusion. From compassion even to the
unliberated arises increased happiness and decreased suffering in the life
and those around the individual.
[Bill!] Happiness and suffering are illusions. They only exist in the
illusory world of self/other, etc.
This can be analyzed and measured.
[Bill!] Please give me an example of how to analyze and measure compassion.
Buddha said compassion and liberation are two different things.
[Bill!] First of all, what Buddha is purported to have said or not said is
of no real value to me if it contradicts my own experiences. Second of all,
what you have reported above that Buddha said 'compassion and liberation are
two different things' is only half the story. Before liberation, this
statement is true. After liberation, compassion and liberation are both
A liberated being who has no valuation on anything of actions and effects ,
yet chooses foods to eat and places to go is a contradiction.
[Bill!] There is indeed a contradiction in your statement above, but it is
not what you think. The contradiction is with 'liberated being' and
[Bill!...from a previous post] With zen practice we can recognize these
illusions as illusions and loose our attachment to them; so in practice what
you call `compassion' reverts to where it's always been, in our first and
Compassion is in our true nature, so too is all illusions. Compassion is an
illusion just as anger however to say that those who become one with their
true nature are compassion or have no need to display it is false.
[Bill!] Those that 'become one with their true nature' have no NEED to
display compassion. This is true.
Compassion is our true illusory appearing nature when all self grasping
ignorance has subsided. When there is even the subtlest self grasping then
our ultimate nature is not appearing correctly in the illusion and views
such as yours arise.
[Bill!] Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Buddha described both, but you maintain what you believe through your own
experience, ignoring the fact that your experience may be faulted.
[Bill!] And you ignore the fact (possibility) that Buddha's experience may
be faulted, or that the account of his experience may be faulted, or that
the translation of the account of his experience may be faulted. Experience
is all we ever have.
A Foe Destroyer who is liberated holds the same Buddha nature view and is
blind to the very subtle self grasping ignorance they are under. They will
never suffer it, but are still ignorant to it.
[Bill!] I don't know what you are saying here. What's a 'Foe Destroyer'?
Is that like a 'Foo Fighter'?
You say in zen you loose attachments by seeing illusions as illusions yet
you are attached to a view of self.
[Bill!] How so?
Another compassionate being also sees illusions as illusions and has no
attachment to them, but from their mind of illusory compassion arises peace
[Bill!] How can this being have compassion for 'others' without first having
the illusion of 'self'?
There is a difference in liberated beings in the world of illusion which is
what is seen by others. When one is free from the illusion there are only
others left as the individual no longer posits a self.
[Bill!] Incorrect! When one is free from the illusion of self there are no
others. There is Just THIS!
It is when this liberated being projects this view of no self onto others
that the flaw arises. It is to these others that a liberated being should do
more than have a cup of tea. If everything is at it is, then why did you
practice zen? What is the purpose?
[Bill!] Zen practice has no purpose, no goal.
To free your individual self? Why put forth effort to free your individual
self then deny the need for effort to free others?
[Bill!] When you drop your attachment to self - all are free in the blink
of an eye!
Sentient beings are numberless, I vow to save them. (By dissolving the self
you dissolve the concept of others, thereby saving them)
Desires are inexhaustible; I vow to put an end to them. (By dissolving the
self you dissolve attachments that are the root of desires)
The dharmas are boundless; I vow to master them. (By dissolving the self
you are dharma)
The Buddha Way is unsurpassable; I vow to obtain it. (By dissolving the
self you are Buddha)
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> My comments are embedded below:
> From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
> Of maitreya003
> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 10:35 AM
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Zen] Re: Compassion
> [Bill!...from a previous post] "The point for this thread is that this
> thinking of, and perhaps acting for
> yourself or others is spontenous and not a result of any hope for reward
> of punishment "
> This is so. There should be no expectation or fear as the cause of
> compassionate actions, but there is a state of being to which compassion
> arises naturally.
> [Bill!] Agreed, but then it is not called compassion.
> [Bill!...from a previous post] "like satisfying an internal goal or
> external rule to be compassionate."
> Correct also no need to follow an external goal, however there are acts of
> compassion and ones that are not of compassion.
> [Bill!] There are no acts of compassion done. There are acts of compassion
> observed by others.
> Acts of compassion are not a rule but they are identifiable.
> [Bill!] Acts of Compassion may be identifiable by others, but if you are
> applying judgment there are no different qualities in one act as opposed
> another act to identify.
> Much like gravity functions, and the laws of physics function and are able
> to be measured and validated, so too compassion is a functioning thing.
> [Bill!] .and Compassion can probably be measured by an observer just as
> gravity can be measured: 'a little compassion', 'a lot of compassion',
> 'don't give a shit'? How would you measure it? Perhaps 'normal' compassion
> could be referred to as just 'C', and then twice as much compassion could
> referred to as '2-C's'. Maybe you could tear compassion apart and find out
> how it works. Then you could quantify it better by measuring it's parts -
> like gravity: 32ft/sec/sec?
> Compassion is not a 'functioning thing'. It's just a label/name we put on
> one of our many illusory discriminations.
> Not all actions are compassion, not all liberated actions are compassion.
> [Bill!] If you're 'picking and choosing' among illusions of the quality of
> actions, then yes - some are compassionate and some are not. If you are
> 'liberated', are not 'picking and choosing', then actions are just
> It's up to someone else to decide whether they fit their own particular
> definition of 'compassionate' or not - and maybe even to measure it.
> I'm now back from Kuala Lumpur.Bill!
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