You will see my other posts to Chris and Artie, which partakes of some of this
I think you have it correct, Rumi uses the term Beloved and we could substitute
God, Allah, Void, Absolute, Buddha Nature, as our own exercise in Post Modern
Comparative studies . . . Having said that it has a particular context within
Sufi studies . . . in fact it could have up to 99 meanings (since the Absolute
is expressed as destroyer, compassionate, patient, loving, wrathful, etc -- I
could go on) . . . just like our own reality . . . it does not mean anything
along the lines of Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so, or
something along those lines. Or particularly a loving god, which seems to be
the meaning ascribed by our good zennist friends here.
I realize that many Westerners have a Jesus/Judaic Monotheistic hangover and
then assert emphatically all kinds of things about Zen that perhaps is
unconsciously formed by our western heritage. This stuff is very subtle to say
That's why I asked what "Beloved" meant to those who appeared to give a rote
Zen answer, whether they understood the context. For if they understood the
context, I don't think there is much to say. You just look at it and pass on .
. . there really is nothing to assert of take away from . . . Zen really has
nothing to say about Rumi at all, right? We either enjoy the poem, or we don't
. . . we can't ascribe all kinds of zenny stuff to it . . . and if we have no
interest in comparative studies, well that speaks for itself, what could we
All this is why I don't enter into the Tibetan/Zen/Buddhist this or that
dialogue . . . I don't think we are going be served all that well, other than
to tell others what we are all about. The lineages are not served. It is just
talk . . . which is okay, for we all like to talk or we would not be here at
this moment. I guess what I am saying, is that I try to keep it where I have
tasted, not what appears to be useless to me. I see all the books on Tibetan
Buddhism in the bookstores, see the Dalai Lama, seems like a swell guy to me,
but I don't have any experience with them so I don't contribute. Likewise, I
have a sneaking suspicion that some here don't know anything about Rumi or
Sufism. That's okay, that would, in my estimation, be the time to wait and
watch, another Western impulse, having an opinion about everything. One thing
that I noticed with Sufi teachers and Zen Masters from the East, is that they
did not offer much when they didn't know.
When I went to sit zazen in LA and had an interview with a Zen Master after my
divorce, he asked where I had been. I told him, "I have been the with the
Sufis." He smiled at me and nodded, big long smile . . .
He asked, "how was the journey?"
"Good," I said.
"And recently, " he asked?
"Uh, I been getting divorced."
"About 9 months."
He didn't smile then, he nodded and said, "you are in the middle of it."
I thought about it. "Yes, I guess so."
"Don't reject it . . . accept it."
Then he said, "Welcome home."
Sufism and Zen, in my experience is sort of like that . . . folksy, real, hard,
reality bitten, work, news, bad and otherwise, and it encompasses compassion .
Uh, the Beloved
By the way, Rumi could have been speaking about Shems (Sun) who was his
mystical teacher who took him out of legalism and into higher states of
donkey is never happy
K among the interviewed
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, <billsm...@...> wrote:
> Chris and Artie,
> I assume from the context the Sufi use of the term 'beloved' is equivalent
> to the Zen Buddhist term 'Buddha Nature'.
> What are your thoughts? .Bill!
> From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of roloro1557
> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 7:56 AM
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Rumi -- Jewels of Remembrance
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> novelidea8@ wrote:
> > What is the beloved to you?
> To me "the beloved" is a concept, an idea, and has no meaning at all.
> There is no reality in it. In other words I don't "believe in" a "beloved".
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
> database 5451 (20100914) __________
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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