Bill,
 
You got it wrong. Bodhisatvas advise you put the oxygen mask on other people 
before you have it on yourself. 
 
You have not answer whether you don't think preventing turmoil is necessary.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 25/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 10:06 AM


  



Anthony,

My comments are embedded below:

Bill,

Under your guidance, I lost my ability to commit atrocities. But the whole 
human socieity needs a deterrent to prevent bad elements from committing them. 
Otherwise, the world will be in turmoil. What is your idea about preventing 
turmoil? Or don't you think it unnecessary?
[Bill!] I follow the advice of the kindly bodhisattvas that attend to us when 
we fly. They advise me to 'put on your own oxygen mask before attempting to 
help those around you'. 

BTW, I have a technical problem with your post when reading within mine. For 
example:

In it you used the word ‘we’. I didn’t ask about 
‘we/us’, I asked about YOU. Why do YOU need a deterrent against 
atrocities – to 

That is what I got from your post. Probably some formating commands did not 
work out well.

This is a problem of mine. I create these posts in MS Word. If I forget to 
change the format to TEXT it goes out in HTML format which uses weird 
characters for some items - like apostrophes. I try to remember to send out my 
posts in TEXT (like this one) so that doesn’t happen.

The above line should read: In it you used the word 'we'. I didn't ask about 
'we/us', I asked about YOU. Why do YOU need a deterrent against atrocities 
"to...

Sorry...Bill!

Anthony

--- On Wed, 24/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 12:25 PM

Anthony,

I’m going to be VERY PICKY about your answer to my question.

In it you used the word ‘we’. I didn’t ask about 
‘we/us’, I asked about YOU. Why do YOU need a deterrent against 
atrocities – to prevent you from committing one?

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 4:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

Bill,

Then I answer you as follows:

We need a deterrent to make Hitler and the like gentle lambs, so that they can 
be your companions on the way to heaven.

Anthony

--- On Tue, 23/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 3:12 PM

Anthony,

Hey! That’s not fair! I did answer your question. My answer 
was ‘I don’t know’.

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:10 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

Bill,

So I don't have to answer your question. No, K.Marx did not say that. He or his 
friend quotes that to criticize the vanity of 'bourgeois ideology'.

Anthony

--- On Tue, 23/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 7:47 AM

Anthony,

I do not know who said that. I have heard it before however. 
I’ll guess either Karl Marx or Frederic 
Nietzsche…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:35 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

Bill,

Before I answer your question, please answer the following first:

Who says even if God did not exist, we should create one.

Why did he say that?

Anthony

--- On Mon, 22/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 12:23 PM

Anthony,

In the paragraph below you say ‘…we need a 
deterrent against atrocities…’. Why do YOU (not 
Pol Pot, not Hitler, not Chris, not Bill!) need a deterrent against atrocities?

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 4:03 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

Chris,

If Hitler and Pol Pot were alive, they would not testify whether their 
conscience suffered. On the other hand, Hitler would have continued his 
nightmares without killing 10 million Jews. Like you said regarding the SS, so 
many people went along with him. I don't think all of them had nightmares. If 
so, the war deaths might have been cut in half. So we need a deterrent against 
atrocities, and afterlife retribution and religios hell are effective ones. 
That is why somebody says (do you remember who it is?) that even if God did not 
exist, we should create one.

Anthony
from the Land of the Red Guard

--- On Sun, 21/11/10, ChrisAustinLane <ch...@austin-lane.net> wrote:

From: ChrisAustinLane <ch...@austin-lane.net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: "Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com" <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com" <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, 21 November, 2010, 9:19 AM

Thanks, 
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Nov 20, 2010, at 13:03, Anthony Wu <wu...@yahoo.com.sg> wrote:
Bill,

Chris' theory applies to you and Chris himself, but not to someone like Hitler 
or Pol Pot. They committed atrocities without compunction. No suffering in any 
part of their bodies and minds.

Anthony

That seems like a pretty strong claim. What is the evidence for that theory 
about their lack of suffering? 

I have read at least once that Hitler (Alice Miller, some essay about the roots 
of adult violence in the cruelty
of childhood) suffered nightmares many nights where he relived some childhood 
beating, determined not to cry this time. 

Somewhat at a tangent, part of the horror of the 20th c genocides is that so 
many people in the societies went along with it. The puzzle isn't Hitler so 
much as the SS. 

Anyways, Hitler and Pol Pot are dead and will never be a part of my current 
moment, so I have even less reason to speculate whether my experience is true 
for them than whether it is true for my Gov't representatives. 

Generally, the question of what others should do doesn't come before me, only 
whether I am about to stub my toe or not. 

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