Bill,

I will continue to challenge you to fly, even if you have the help of the giant 
hand of God.

Anthony

--- On Sat, 15/1/11, Bill! <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:

From: Bill! <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Differences Tao/Chan, which older
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 15 January, 2011, 8:10 AM







 



  


    
      
      
      ED.



I agree.  What I was trying to impress upon Kristy and Anthony, especially 
Anthony, is that beliefs are not something to diparage.  Beliefs are good.  
They're all you have.



I think the problem is when you mix up beliefs and explanations.  Anthony keeps 
bringing up gravity and challenges me to fly.  I believe I walk on the earth 
and cannot soar up into the sky.  An explanation of that obervation/experience 
is gravity, but there could be other explanations - like a giant invisable hand 
of God keeps me earthbound.  Different explanations are more or less useful in 
different circumstancews.



Gravity is just the one that is in vogue right now.



...Bill!



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED" <seacrofter001@...> wrote:

>

> 

> 

> Bill and All,

> 

> All systems, whether philosophical, psychological scientific, religious,

> etc. or mixed rest on basic beliefs,  principles, postulates and

> assumptions.

> 

> In Zen, for instance, some of these premises might be:

> 

> o     Buddha Nature is a reality

> 

> o     Non-rational experiencing is of the essence, and the rational mind

> is a delusion

> 

> o     Realizing Buddha Nature should be the primary goal of one's life

> 

> o     Experiencing kensho-satori is the mark of one's having commenced

> the process of experiencing Buddha Nature

> 

> o     A more ongoing experience of "Just THIS" facilitates the

> occurrence of kensho-satori

> 

> o     Regular and intense Shikantaza practice facilitates the ongoing

> state of "Just THIS"

> 

> o     No blind reliance on religious texts, but blind dependence on the

> guidance of Zen teachers is acceptable

> 

> o     An accredited Roshi is necessary to ascertain one's experience of

> kensho-satori

> 

> o     etc.

> 

> Chan has a few more premises like the existence of Chi, etc.

> 

> --ED

> 

> 

> 

> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote:

> >

> > Kristy,

> >

> > Just THIS is my attempt to communicate direct experience.

> >

> > Whether you believe that or not is up to you.

> >

> > ...Bill!

> 

> 

> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain healthyplay1@ wrote:

> > >

> > > Bill,

> > >

> > > I disagree.  It is your belief about  your experience.

> > >

> > > Kristy

> 

> 

> 

> > > Just THIS is not a belief, it is experience...Bill!

> 

> 

> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain <healthyplay1@>

> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > So is "just this".  k ;)

> 

> 

> > > > Science is a belief system...Bill!

> > > >

> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com

> <mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> , JMJM wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Hello TMSO,

> > > > >

> > > > > I would say both are NOT believe systems.

> > > > >

> > > > > From my limited understanding, Tao is a system, or school well

> > > > > documented. It primarily focuses on attaining immortality. I

> mean with

> > > > > herbs, exercises, etc. etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > Chan is just a nick name for the entire universe for thousands

> of

> > > > > years. I was curious to its origin many years ago. I dug here

> and

> > > > > there and could not find an answer. Even Wikipedia stated, if I

> > > > > remember correctly, "the original of Chan can not be traced."

> > > > >

> > > > > Chan did not have an official teaching order until BodhiDharma

> showed

> > > > > up. But my teacher often pointed out how incomplete are some of

> the

> > > > > Buddhist interpretation.

> > > > >

> > > > > Our school is really about direct, really is direct, experience.

> That's

> > > > > all.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sorry, these are my best answers. JM

> 

> 

> 

> 

> > > > > On 1/12/2011 2:57 PM, taomtnsage1 wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > To Jue Miao Jing Ming- Could you please tell me some of the

> > > > > > differences between Tao and Chan. Also, which belief system

> developed

> > > > > > first. Thanks for your help

>





    
     

    
    


 



  





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