Anthony, I don't consider myself 'more advanced' than you. In fact if anything I would like to think I am 'less advanced' than you. In the case of zen practice the more you unlearn and the less advanced you are from your Original Nature the better.
I believe the concept of 'cause-and-effect' (like all concepts) is illusory. ONE of the reasons I believe this is because the concept of cause-and-effect is completely dependent upon the belief in a sequencial, serial, uni-directional flow of time. Cause-and-effect requires at least two separate actions, one - the cause- which happens before the other - the effect. There is no sequencial, serial, uni-directional flow of time. There is only an ILLUSION of a sequencial, serial, unidirectional flow of time. There is only Now. The past exists only in our mind - we call this memory. The future exists only in our mind as a logical projection(based on our belief in cause-and-effect) of a concatenation of our illusion of Past and Now. And, to employ the also equally illusory power of logic I can state: since the flow of time itself is illusory any concept based on time must also be illusory. I hope this helps to retard you a little... ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@...> wrote: > > Bill, >  > I agree you are much more advanced than I am, however I hope you will make > your view on cause-and-effect more understandable. >  > Anthony > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Saturday, 14 January 2012, 10:09 > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > friends & family react? > > >  > Anthony, > > You keep returning time after time to this theme. It seems self-destructive > to me and I don't advocate what I'm about to say, but I say it only to > respond to you. > > There have been many intstances of people who have conquered their fear of > pain and death. The first that comes to mind is Jesus, but there have been > many others much less well-known or even known at all. Anyone that has chosen > put his/her life at risk or face certain death could be said to have done > this. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > Bill, > > à> > When can we break the illusion of self so that we don't fear disintegration > > of our bodies? > > à> > However the cause and effect of leaping into an abyss and death still > > exists, whether we are alive or dead. > > à> > Anthony > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Friday, 13 January 2012, 17:28 > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > friends & family react? > > > > > > à> > Anthony, > > > > When we 'break the illusion of self' we break all illusions. We see through > > all dualistic concepts. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > Ãâà> > > Jumping into an abyss is a classical zen allegory. It is a good one for > > > the purpose of breaking illusion of the self. However, it is not for > > > negating cause-and-effect. In the physical world, you don't jump into an > > > abyss, because you don't want your body to disintegrate. In other words, > > > there is an effect to fear. So it is not an illusion. > > > Ãâà> > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Thursday, 12 January 2012, 12:51 > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > > friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > Anthony, > > > > > > Zen stories, perhaps even more than most, are symbolic - many are > > > allegories and should not be taken literally. I say zen stories use this > > > device more than most because much of what zen is about cannot be totally > > > expressed with words - espcially written words. Face-to-face dialog is > > > better, but as you know some zen masters tried to express and communicate > > > their experience of Buddha Nature without words - with just sounds or > > > even just actions. At least that's my opinion. > > > > > > The 'Jumping into the Abyss' phrase/allegory was taken from what you've > > > called the physical world. When we stand at the edge of an abyss and > > > contemplate jumping we will probably be terrified. It would take an act > > > of either extreme desperation or faith to jump. > > > > > > That is the same kind of desparation or faith that is needed to sever all > > > attachements to the illusion of 'self' and rationality and throw yourself > > > into the 'abyss' - Buddha Nature. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > Quote:ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàin zen stories as 'leaping into the abyss' > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > Since the physical world is part of the reality, can you do that > > > > physically? > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 January 2012, 10:19 > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > > > friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > Siska, > > > > > > > > Yes, the concept of cause-and-effect is illusory. > > > > > > > > The belief in cause-and-effect is an attempt by your discriminating > > > > mind to 'understand' reality, to 'make sense'of experience which is > > > > fundamentally chaotic. It is a process of breaking up wholistic > > > > experience (Just THIS!) into pieces, and then to categorize and even > > > > directly associating some pieces with others by assigning a dependent > > > > cause-and-effect relationship to these pairs or sets of pieces. The > > > > establishment of these cause-and-effect relationships are done to fit > > > > your needs at the time. They are not absolute, objective or real. They > > > > are relational, subjective and illusory - this is because they are > > > > dependent upon your dualistic concept of self/other. The illusion of > > > > cause-and-effect helps you feel more comfortable and gives you a > > > > certain sense of control of life. > > > > > > > > The concept of karma is a spritualized version of cause-and-effect > > > > which is usually thought of as purely a physical relationship. > > > > > > > > The letting go of this illusion is sometimes referred to in zen stories > > > > as 'leaping into the abyss', or 'taking a step off the 100-ft > > > > flagpole'. These are teachings telling you that you must let go of your > > > > attachments (espcially to logic and the belief in cause-and-effect), > > > > come out of your fantasy comfort zone, throw away your illusory > > > > security blanket and throw yourself completly into the stark unknown > > > > and unknowable. > > > > > > > > There's no comforting assurance of cause-and-effect there. Just THIS! > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > The killing is not the cause and the dieing the effect. > > > > > Would you then say that cause and effect is illusory? > > > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > > > Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:18:32 > > > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > > > > > your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > When I said 'outside agency' I meant 'outside of you' or 'other than > > > > > you'. When you say 'karma functions by itself' you are implying that > > > > > karma exists independently of you; like when you say 'not my will but > > > > > Yours (God's) be done' you are implying that God exists independently > > > > > of you. You are implying that 'karma' and 'God' are 'outside > > > > > agencies' - outside of and/or separate from you. > > > > > > > > > > I am saying that both the concept of 'karma' and 'God' and all their > > > > > supposed attributes and associated powers/activites are NOT separate > > > > > from you. That are created by you - by your discriminating mind. They > > > > > are illusory. > > > > > > > > > > If you kill, there is killing. If you are killed, you die. If you > > > > > loot, there is looting. If you are looted, you loose property. The > > > > > killing is not the cause and the dieing the effect. It is the same > > > > > action viewed or described from two perspectives. It is Just THIS! > > > > > > > > > > This is my experience...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > The difference is that karma does not rely on God or any other > > > > > > 'outside agent'. It functions by itself. On the other hand, if you > > > > > > deny karma, does that mean whatever you do, whether killing, > > > > > > looting or burning, does not have any effects? You may say you rely > > > > > > on law to take care of it. But that is part of karma, at the human > > > > > > level. Nevertheless, it is more realistic than reliance on God. if > > > > > > all are illusory, killing and looting will be out of control. In > > > > > > that case, believing in God is better than believing in nothing. > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 13:00 > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > > > > > > your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > How are they different concepts? > > > > > > > > > > > > Both have to do with action/reaction (cause and effect), and both > > > > > > exist as a concept in your mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > Labeling some actions/reactions or cause/effect as good or bad > > > > > > (good deeds lead to reward or sin leads to punishment; or > > > > > > accumulation of [bad] karma leads to being re-born as a toad) is > > > > > > just packaging. Likewise attributng the enforcement of > > > > > > actions/reactions or cause/effect to an outside agency such as > > > > > > karma or God is also just packaging. > > > > > > > > > > > > It all looks the same to me - illusory, dualistic packaging. > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > It is a different message you wrap in the same envelope. > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 9:15 > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How > > > > > > > did your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You definition of karma is well stated, but why do you not think > > > > > > > that definition could not also be applied to the Christian > > > > > > > concept of sin/obedience and Hell/Heaven? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For me it's the same message in a different envelope. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is not karma, but reward and punishment by God. Karma is > > > > > > > > action and reaction by yourself through your own mind (or > > > > > > > > Buddha nature). > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 8 January 2012, 18:03 > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How > > > > > > > > did your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Christians beleive in 'karma' also: if you're 'good' you go to > > > > > > > > Heaven and if you're 'bad' you go to Hell...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ItÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàis > > > > > > > > > not at all surprising that you got a funny reaction from > > > > > > > > > people surrounding you when you said you were interested in > > > > > > > > > Buddhism. Try doing the same thing with Moslems, and you get > > > > > > > > > a funnier response. Even in this forum, which is less hostile > > > > > > > > > to Buddhism, you find different views on it. > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > The key point in Buddhism is karma. But Hinduism also agrees > > > > > > > > > to karma. The difference between the two is the former > > > > > > > > > insists that karma is your own business, nobody else can help > > > > > > > > > you change it. However, in Hinduism, there are powerful > > > > > > > > > deities who respond to your requests and assist you. Don't > > > > > > > > > forget we are a zen forum, and there are a view I term > > > > > > > > > chaotic zen, which denies anything on karma, or any laws or > > > > > > > > > rules. They say everything is in chaos. On the other hand, > > > > > > > > > you will also hear all kinds of Buddhist views here. I hope > > > > > > > > > you have fun here. > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > From: dan_guzy <dan_guzy@> > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, 7 January 2012, 16:08 > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How > > > > > > > > > did your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I seem to be having trouble with this. I'm new to buddhism, > > > > > > > > > just recently starting reading up on it the past several > > > > > > > > > months, although technically I've been exposed to it for many > > > > > > > > > years through a variety of tv shows, movies, etc. My favorite > > > > > > > > > was Kung Fu: The Legend Continues. Don't know why, but the > > > > > > > > > scenes with the shoalin temple and buddhist monks were always > > > > > > > > > my favorite. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Although I haven't come right out and said to my family > > > > > > > > > (except for my sister) that I'm learning about Buddhism, > > > > > > > > > they've seen the books and notes I leave to myself pertaining > > > > > > > > > to it. So far, it has not been encouraging. They kind of give > > > > > > > > > a disgusted look or a groan when they see it that suggests > > > > > > > > > that they are not happy about it. They are catholics. I'm an > > > > > > > > > atheist (which they've known for years). When I finally told > > > > > > > > > my sister that I'd like to visit a temple in town, she got > > > > > > > > > disqusted and said "why? You'll never go with me to my > > > > > > > > > church, but you'll go to a buddhist church?" I didn't know > > > > > > > > > what to say, so I told her the truth, that I didn't feel > > > > > > > > > anything for catholicism anymore, and that it didn't feel > > > > > > > > > like the right religion for me. She wasn't pleased. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then today I was having a chat with a co-worker and boss at > > > > > > > > > work. I get along great with both of them, known them for > > > > > > > > > several years. My co-worker mentioned she and her husband > > > > > > > > > were atheists, so I told her I was too. We both got a kick > > > > > > > > > out of it realizing that we never knew that about each other. > > > > > > > > > Then I mentioned to her that I had been reading up on > > > > > > > > > buddhism lately, and she gave the same kind of groan I've > > > > > > > > > been hearing from my family. My boss just sort of gave a look > > > > > > > > > of shock and disbelief, didn't say anything. I couple of > > > > > > > > > weeks or so before that, I was discussing various books with > > > > > > > > > another boss that we like to read, and I mentioned one I'd > > > > > > > > > been reading called the Peaceful Warrior. He asked what it > > > > > > > > > was about so I told him, and when I mentioned it has a > > > > > > > > > buddhist theme to it, he gave a funny look. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's funny about all of this is that I've always figured > > > > > > > > > buddhism to be one of the most revered and highly respected > > > > > > > > > forms of philosophy and religion on earth. Even growing up I > > > > > > > > > felt that way. When I go online to Yahoo Answers R&S forum to > > > > > > > > > ask a question pertaining to it, I haven't had any bad > > > > > > > > > replies over a single question, and if any of you have ever > > > > > > > > > been on there, you know they can be harsh sometimes in that > > > > > > > > > section. So it really threw me for a loop seeing all these > > > > > > > > > crazy reactions from people I know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did any of you get these same reactions from the people you > > > > > > > > > knew when you were first learning about buddhism? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
