Bill, It has always been a difficult question in Buddhism: if there is no self, who is the receiver of the action of karma? If you don't believe in karma, you don't have to worry about that. However, you have to solve the following problem: the cause and effect of leaping into an abyss physically and death is undeniable. Anthony
________________________________ From: Bill! <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, 13 January 2012, 17:33 Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your friends & family react? Anthony, I don't really mind if my statements about zen don't make sense. That is entirely possible and sometimes unavoidable. However, I think my statements below do make sense. I'll agree with you that karma operates on 'self'. So...what happens to all the karma your 'self' has accumulated when you realize your 'self' is an illusion and it drops away? I'm just saying that when the self drops away so does karma. Or another way for me to say that is that both self and karma are illusions. You already are a Buddha (have Buddha Nature) but perhaps are not aware of that, or not convinced of that, or don't have enough faith yet to 'leap into abyss' of selflessness. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@...> wrote: > > Bill, >  > Your statement does make sense. Karma seems to operate on 'self'. The problem > is when the self can melt away? I do hope my karma can also 'melt away'. Do I > need to become a Buddha for that to happen? >  > Anthony > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, 12 January 2012, 12:57 > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > friends & family react? > > >  > Okay! Now we're getting somewhere... > > So is karma 'you' as in the 'you' that is your illusion of 'self'? > > If your answer is 'yes', then we agree! And when the dualistic illusion of > 'self' melts away, so does karma. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > Bill, > >  > > Karma is you, you, you. > >  > > Anthony > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 January 2012, 10:22 > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > friends & family react? > > > > > >  > > Anthony, > > > > I am still a little confused as how you think of karma. > > > > You say 'karma is inside you'. Is karma seperate from you but inside you, > > or is karma you? > > > > You say 'karma exists by itself'. Does it exist independent of you, or is > > karma you? > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > >  > > > Karma is inside you and functions without an outside agency such as God. > > > It reflects cause and effect. Whether you view it as the same action or > > > two actions, they originate from the same source. Buddhism does not > > > create karma, (much less a God). It exists by itself. > > >  > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Tuesday, 10 January 2012, 16:18 > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > > friends & family react? > > > > > > > > >  > > > Anthony, > > > > > > When I said 'outside agency' I meant 'outside of you' or 'other than > > > you'. When you say 'karma functions by itself' you are implying that > > > karma exists independently of you; like when you say 'not my will but > > > Yours (God's) be done' you are implying that God exists independently of > > > you. You are implying that 'karma' and 'God' are 'outside agencies' - > > > outside of and/or separate from you. > > > > > > I am saying that both the concept of 'karma' and 'God' and all their > > > supposed attributes and associated powers/activites are NOT separate from > > > you. That are created by you - by your discriminating mind. They are > > > illusory. > > > > > > If you kill, there is killing. If you are killed, you die. If you loot, > > > there is looting. If you are looted, you loose property. The killing is > > > not the cause and the dieing the effect. It is the same action viewed or > > > described from two perspectives. It is Just THIS! > > > > > > This is my experience...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > The difference is that karma does not rely on God or any other 'outside > > > > agent'. It functions by itself. On the other hand, if you deny karma, > > > > does that mean whatever you do, whether killing, looting or burning, > > > > does not have any effects? You may say you rely on law to take care of > > > > it. But that is part of karma, at the human level. Nevertheless, it is > > > > more realistic than reliance on God. if all are illusory, killing and > > > > looting will be out of control. In that case, believing in God is > > > > better than believing in nothing. > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 13:00 > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > > > friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > How are they different concepts? > > > > > > > > Both have to do with action/reaction (cause and effect), and both exist > > > > as a concept in your mind. > > > > > > > > Labeling some actions/reactions or cause/effect as good or bad (good > > > > deeds lead to reward or sin leads to punishment; or accumulation of > > > > [bad] karma leads to being re-born as a toad) is just packaging. > > > > Likewise attributng the enforcement of actions/reactions or > > > > cause/effect to an outside agency such as karma or God is also just > > > > packaging. > > > > > > > > It all looks the same to me - illusory, dualistic packaging. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > It is a different message you wrap in the same envelope. > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 9:15 > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > > > > > your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > You definition of karma is well stated, but why do you not think that > > > > > definition could not also be applied to the Christian concept of > > > > > sin/obedience and Hell/Heaven? > > > > > > > > > > For me it's the same message in a different envelope. > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > That is not karma, but reward and punishment by God. Karma is > > > > > > action and reaction by yourself through your own mind (or Buddha > > > > > > nature). > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 8 January 2012, 18:03 > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > > > > > > your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > Christians beleive in 'karma' also: if you're 'good' you go to > > > > > > Heaven and if you're 'bad' you go to Hell...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ItÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ is > > > > > > > not at all surprising that you got a funny reaction from people > > > > > > > surrounding you when you said you were interested in Buddhism. > > > > > > > Try doing the same thing with Moslems, and you get a funnier > > > > > > > response. Even in this forum, which is less hostile to Buddhism, > > > > > > > you find different views on it. > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > The key point in Buddhism is karma. But Hinduism also agrees to > > > > > > > karma. The difference between the two is the former insists that > > > > > > > karma is your own business, nobody else can help you change it. > > > > > > > However, in Hinduism, there are powerful deities who respond to > > > > > > > your requests and assist you. Don't forget we are a zen forum, > > > > > > > and there are a view I term chaotic zen, which denies anything on > > > > > > > karma, or any laws or rules. They say everything is in chaos. On > > > > > > > the other hand, you will also hear all kinds of Buddhist views > > > > > > > here. I hope you have fun here. > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: dan_guzy <dan_guzy@> > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, 7 January 2012, 16:08 > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > > > > > > > your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I seem to be having trouble with this. I'm new to buddhism, just > > > > > > > recently starting reading up on it the past several months, > > > > > > > although technically I've been exposed to it for many years > > > > > > > through a variety of tv shows, movies, etc. My favorite was Kung > > > > > > > Fu: The Legend Continues. Don't know why, but the scenes with the > > > > > > > shoalin temple and buddhist monks were always my favorite. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Although I haven't come right out and said to my family (except > > > > > > > for my sister) that I'm learning about Buddhism, they've seen the > > > > > > > books and notes I leave to myself pertaining to it. So far, it > > > > > > > has not been encouraging. They kind of give a disgusted look or a > > > > > > > groan when they see it that suggests that they are not happy > > > > > > > about it. They are catholics. I'm an atheist (which they've known > > > > > > > for years). When I finally told my sister that I'd like to visit > > > > > > > a temple in town, she got disqusted and said "why? You'll never > > > > > > > go with me to my church, but you'll go to a buddhist church?" I > > > > > > > didn't know what to say, so I told her the truth, that I didn't > > > > > > > feel anything for catholicism anymore, and that it didn't feel > > > > > > > like the right religion for me. She wasn't pleased. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then today I was having a chat with a co-worker and boss at work. > > > > > > > I get along great with both of them, known them for several > > > > > > > years. My co-worker mentioned she and her husband were atheists, > > > > > > > so I told her I was too. We both got a kick out of it realizing > > > > > > > that we never knew that about each other. Then I mentioned to her > > > > > > > that I had been reading up on buddhism lately, and she gave the > > > > > > > same kind of groan I've been hearing from my family. My boss just > > > > > > > sort of gave a look of shock and disbelief, didn't say anything. > > > > > > > I couple of weeks or so before that, I was discussing various > > > > > > > books with another boss that we like to read, and I mentioned one > > > > > > > I'd been reading called the Peaceful Warrior. He asked what it > > > > > > > was about so I told him, and when I mentioned it has a buddhist > > > > > > > theme to it, he gave a funny look. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's funny about all of this is that I've always figured > > > > > > > buddhism to be one of the most revered and highly respected forms > > > > > > > of philosophy and religion on earth. Even growing up I felt that > > > > > > > way. When I go online to Yahoo Answers R&S forum to ask a > > > > > > > question pertaining to it, I haven't had any bad replies over a > > > > > > > single question, and if any of you have ever been on there, you > > > > > > > know they can be harsh sometimes in that section. So it really > > > > > > > threw me for a loop seeing all these crazy reactions from people > > > > > > > I know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did any of you get these same reactions from the people you knew > > > > > > > when you were first learning about buddhism? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
