Edgar,

Creating and superimposing illusory structure on reality is not zen.  Directly 
experiencing reality without applying censorship, augmentation or judgement is 
zen.

...Bill!

--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:
>
> Kristopher and Bill!
> 
> It's amusing to see you two continually verbally deny the obvious reality of 
> the logic of the world of forms which you must conform to every minute of 
> your existence to remain alive and function, as if denying this reality is 
> somehow an indication of having Zen when it's actually the antithesis of 
> Zen....
> 
> Zen is not denying the logical rules of the world of forms or denying the 
> existence of the world of forms; Zen is seeing the world of forms and its 
> intrinsic rules for what they are as manifestations of the underlying Buddha 
> nature, or Tao, or in my terminology ontological energy...
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Aug 29, 2012, at 1:26 PM, Kristopher Grey wrote:
> 
> > 
> > The word choice was not a mistake (and was also a play on your words)
> > 
> > The discrimination of obvious delusions as 'false' and less obvious 
> > delusions as 'true' is a form of binding arbitration.
> > 
> > 'Certainty' certainly applies in the way you say, but only conveys a 
> > half-truth that will appear to make more sense to those who seek to gain 
> > knowledge of 'true' and 'false'.  This is not the truth I speak to.
> > 
> > KG
> > 
> > 
> > On 8/29/2012 9:50 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> >>  
> >> Kristopher,
> >> 
> >> The word 'surety' means a taking of responsibility usually in the form of 
> >> a bond for someone else's financial obligation.
> >> 
> >> Perhaps you meant to say 'certainty'?
> >> 
> >> Contrary to what you imply some things are true and some false.... There 
> >> is a consistent logical structure to reality and what is inconsistent with 
> >> that is false. A delusion is a falsehood still believed in spite of good 
> >> evidence to the contrary. Most beliefs of religions including animistic 
> >> religions such as that of the Aborigines are obvious delusion...
> >> 
> >> Thinking that 'surety' means 'certainty' is a delusion though in your case 
> >> it was likely just a typo as sometimes happens to the best of us....
> >> 
> >> Edgar
> >> 
> >> On Aug 28, 2012, at 11:56 PM, Kristopher Grey wrote:
> >> 
> >> > On 8/28/2012 8:35 PM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> >> >> Sure there are plenty of nature spirit religions. They are ALL 
> >> >> delusions...
> >> >> 
> >> > 
> >> > As is your surety.
> >> > 
> >> > KG
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > ------------------------------------
> >> > 
> >> > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
> >> > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> >
>




------------------------------------

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