Also a good reminder this is not obvious to everyone.
KG
On 9/12/2012 6:38 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:
Bill,
Yes, it's a good working definition of the two...
Edgar
On Sep 11, 2012, at 9:23 PM, Bill! wrote:
ED,
That may be so. I don't really know. And if they do it might be
psychosomatic, not that that really matters. Pain is of course an
indication that somethings wrong and needs attention. To just
alleviate pain without attending to its source might be prove to be
problematic. That's the case whether it be zazen, religious beliefs
or Valium.
Pain is real. Suffering (in the way the term is used in Buddhism) is
not real. It's a 'mental model' (aka 'illusion') which is the result
of attachments which are in turn dependent upon the creation of the
dualistic concept of 'self'.
That's IMO anyway...
,,,BIll!
--- In [email protected]
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, "ED" <seacrofter001@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Bill! and Mike,
>
> Is it not the case that zazen or vipasana can also help alleviate pain?
>
> --ED
>
>
> --- In [email protected]
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote:
> >
> > Merle,
> >
> > I am also 66!
> >
> > I'm about to give you some of my definitions of terms and they're
> pretty 'tough-love' definitions so be warned...
> >
> > Pain is NOT suffering. Pain is pain. Suffering is feeling sorry for
> yourself (your self) because perhaps you're in pain and that does not
> meet up with your expectations and disappoints you.
> >
> > You do not have to suffer.
> >
> > The best example I know of this is a 3-legged dog. I'm sure you've
> seen many of them. They aren't suffering because (I presume) they don't
> have a strong 'mental model' of 'self'. They don't feel sorry for
> themselves. They don't compare themselves to other dogs. They just make
> do with what they've got. I've seen dogs with only 2 legs and they
don't
> act any differently than those with 4. You could be a little
> condescending and say 'they don't know any better' - when actually you
> should be just saying 'they don't know' - and good for them.
> >
> > Contrast that with a human who has lost a leg. Many such humans will
> suffer. They'll wonder 'why me'? 'What did I do to deserve this?'
And be
> envious of full-bodied humans who can do more and have more than they.
> Why? Because they DO have a strong 'mental model' of 'self' and have
> expectations of what life SHOULD be like, and do compare themselves
with
> others. Their life is not like others (the majority) and this
> disappoints them so they suffer.
> >
> > Zazen can help...
> >
> > ...Bill!
>
