Bill, Yes, it's a good working definition of the two...
Edgar On Sep 11, 2012, at 9:23 PM, Bill! wrote: > ED, > > That may be so. I don't really know. And if they do it might be > psychosomatic, not that that really matters. Pain is of course an indication > that somethings wrong and needs attention. To just alleviate pain without > attending to its source might be prove to be problematic. That's the case > whether it be zazen, religious beliefs or Valium. > > Pain is real. Suffering (in the way the term is used in Buddhism) is not > real. It's a 'mental model' (aka 'illusion') which is the result of > attachments which are in turn dependent upon the creation of the dualistic > concept of 'self'. > > That's IMO anyway... > > ,,,BIll! > > --- In [email protected], "ED" <seacrofter001@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill! and Mike, > > > > Is it not the case that zazen or vipasana can also help alleviate pain? > > > > --ED > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > I am also 66! > > > > > > I'm about to give you some of my definitions of terms and they're > > pretty 'tough-love' definitions so be warned... > > > > > > Pain is NOT suffering. Pain is pain. Suffering is feeling sorry for > > yourself (your self) because perhaps you're in pain and that does not > > meet up with your expectations and disappoints you. > > > > > > You do not have to suffer. > > > > > > The best example I know of this is a 3-legged dog. I'm sure you've > > seen many of them. They aren't suffering because (I presume) they don't > > have a strong 'mental model' of 'self'. They don't feel sorry for > > themselves. They don't compare themselves to other dogs. They just make > > do with what they've got. I've seen dogs with only 2 legs and they don't > > act any differently than those with 4. You could be a little > > condescending and say 'they don't know any better' - when actually you > > should be just saying 'they don't know' - and good for them. > > > > > > Contrast that with a human who has lost a leg. Many such humans will > > suffer. They'll wonder 'why me'? 'What did I do to deserve this?' And be > > envious of full-bodied humans who can do more and have more than they. > > Why? Because they DO have a strong 'mental model' of 'self' and have > > expectations of what life SHOULD be like, and do compare themselves with > > others. Their life is not like others (the majority) and this > > disappoints them so they suffer. > > > > > > Zazen can help... > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > >
