Bill and Merle, But I was speaking of Bill's mind moving and categorizing and judging, not Merle's..
Edgar On Nov 14, 2012, at 9:02 PM, Bill! wrote: > Merle, > > Edgar is right. Your mind is moving and very active. > > Of course he and I differ on the significance of that. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: >> >> Merle, >> >> Exactly. There are always tons of things going on. Those who tell us only to >> shop when we go shopping, or only to eat while we are eating, are just >> repeating misleading Zen platitudes. Reality is not so simple that only one >> thing at a time is going on. And the whole concept of quantifying how many >> things are going on at any particular time is using the mind to categorize >> and count them. Reality itself has no such separation or counting between >> things. That's in the eye of an observer whose mind is moving... >> >> Edgar >> >> >> On Nov 14, 2012, at 6:18 AM, Merle Lester wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> billlllllllll............ i have every admiration and respect for you and >>> your path.... maybe i am confused... you might shop shop when you shop..so >>> be it. >>> >>> .i shop too however i love observing and interacting with people.... >>> endlessly fascinating creatures they are.. >>> >>> . multi tasking you might add...is that a "zen sin"? >>> >>> merle >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Merle, >>> >>> There is indeed more to life than shopping, and that you engage it all >>> kinds of other activities while shopping; but when I am shopping, I just >>> shop - nothing else. There is an old zen adage to that effect: "In walking, >>> just walk. In sitting, just sit. Above all, don't wobble." >>> >>> You're doing your pea-pod thing again. Where did you ever get the idea I >>> was "...obsessed with rules, books and teachers"? You do have a very vivid >>> imagination, I'll grant you that. >>> >>> I'm happy you consider yourself your own teacher. I am glad you are being >>> true to your self, and are following the path you've made for your self - >>> if that works for you. >>> >>> It's probably because I don't consider myself a teacher that my path is >>> much less ambitious. I'm satisfied with a just trying to put into practice >>> a little advice from an old teacher of mine: "To study the Buddha Way is to >>> study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self >>> is to be enlightened by the ten thousand things." - Dogen >>> >>> ...Bill! >>> >>> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>  >>>>  billlll you might shop and shop till you drop...there is more to life >>>> than shopping! >>>> i said i was my own teacher..you are obsessed with rules, books and >>>> teachers >>>>  be to thy self true... there is no other path than the one you make >>>> yourself!..merle >>>>  >>>> Merle, >>>> >>>> You and Edgar are like two peas in a pod...always assuming people think >>>> something they probably don't and certainly didn't say. >>>> >>>> Who on this group said you were a zen teacher? Only Edgar and you as far >>>> as I can remember. >>>> >>>> Who on this group implied they did not believe you were a zen teacher? NO >>>> ONE to my knowledge. >>>> >>>> I read the Zen Forum "...with my eyes wide open, my ears pricked and >>>> alert...". >>>> >>>> When I shop, I shop. >>>> >>>> ...Bill! >>>> >>>> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>  bill..i shop with my eyes wide open, my ears pricked and alert.. >>>>> >>>>> you'd betold surprised at the amazing conversations i have had with total >>>>> strangers who suddenly for no reason eagerly tell me their life >>>>> stories..and i point them to zen! >>>>> >>>>>  i am a teacher after all which all of you in the group deny to me >>>>> >>>>> merle >>>>> >>>>>  merle >>>>>  >>>>> Merle, >>>>> >>>>> When I go to the shopping mall I shop. What do you do? >>>>> >>>>> ...Bill! >>>>> >>>>> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> edgar. >>>>>> >>>>>> .i can understand what you are saying...and that is how i see it except >>>>>> i cannot explain it like you have.. >>>>>> >>>>>> .zen to me is being in the moment alert and forever present...as i see >>>>>> it we zen through the day.. >>>>>> >>>>>> .practising zen to me is not sitting cross legged on "handwoven mats, >>>>>>  eyes shut tight, sniffing incense and  listening to >>>>>> gongs." >>>>>> >>>>>> .it's being out there in the real world every minute alert breathing the >>>>>> breath..."zenning the zen"..so to speak.. >>>>>> >>>>>> . as as for those folk on those forum who are going to clap their hands >>>>>> and shout "horror horror where the hell is she at"? let me remind them.. >>>>>> >>>>>> .it's not me who's struggling with zen understanding >>>>>> >>>>>>  it's those hundreds of folk who we see everyday walking and >>>>>> talking as if in a shadowland( plato's cave)..... >>>>>> >>>>>> next time you go to the shopping mall pay close attention and you'll >>>>>> very soon understand >>>>>> >>>>>> merle >>>>>> >>>>>>  >>>>>> Edgar, >>>>>> >>>>>> It's good to see you back and well. Unfortunately I can't say the same >>>>>> about your theories. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> "It's an updated understanding of how mind works that was unknown when >>>>>> the Zen texts were written." >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Are you saying that prior to this 'breakthru' in neuroscience the >>>>>> Patriarchs weren't practicing 'real' Zen, but that you now are? Is this >>>>>> discovery definitive or could there be further "updates" which would >>>>>> render the Zen you practice now obsolete? Are you in fact practicing Zen >>>>>> or something different entirely? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>> From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> >>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>> Sent: Monday, 29 October 2012, 22:34 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Is buddha nature coninuous? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>  >>>>>> Joe, >>>>>> >>>>>> I think you have a mistaken interpretation of what 'mind moving' >>>>>> actually means... >>>>>> >>>>>> Mind is a computational system that continually computes sensations, >>>>>> actions etc. Thus mind continually moves. There is no escaping that so >>>>>> long as you are alive. In fact measurements show that mind is almost as >>>>>> active during sleep as when awake. >>>>>> >>>>>> So mind always moves in that sense. Everything you do you do it >>>>>> precisely because your mind is moving. >>>>>> >>>>>> What Zen means by mind not moving is different. It means that mind moves >>>>>> in sync with reality, not in opposition to it. This 'Zen is mind not >>>>>> moving' platitude was written centuries ago when the computational >>>>>> dynamics of mind were not understood. It refers to a state when you >>>>>> don't consciously think you are deciding to take particular actions but >>>>>> actions seem to flow spontaneously from an unconscious inner source. >>>>>> However it is now known that is always happening anyway. The conscious >>>>>> mind actually very rarely makes any decisions at all even though it >>>>>> thinks it does. That's the illusion. The source of almost all decisions >>>>>> and actions is always the unconscious inner computational system. >>>>>> >>>>>> It's an updated understanding of how mind works that was unknown when >>>>>> the Zen texts were written. >>>>>> >>>>>> So Zen is 24/7, whether your mind is moving or not. If there is >>>>>> realization that is. Zen is a matter of realizing what is actually >>>>>> happening, not getting rid of all thoughts which is of course impossible >>>>>> if you want to function in reality and survive through the day... >>>>>> >>>>>> True mindlessness = lobotomy or more accurately being dead! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If you want a reference even Suzuki Roshi agreed with this when I put it >>>>>> to him... >>>>>> >>>>>> Edgar >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 29, 2012, at 4:30 PM, Joe wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>  >>>>>>> Edgar, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ha, ha. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yeah, I don't get what motivates your comment. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Let's see if, no matter what mind you are in now, you can follow a >>>>>>> logical exposition: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Zen adept Sumie ink artists who paint big black circles on rice >>>>>>> paper do so with a mind that does not move: I mean, they do it with NO >>>>>>> mind (and hence, no mind-motion). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I remember our Shif-fu, on retreats, teaching us how to come OUT of >>>>>>> meditation. He'd say, "MOVE YOUR MIND, first, then move your BODY, VERY >>>>>>> SLOWLY, and sway your body in ever-widening circles from the waist, >>>>>>> first in direction, then in the other". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That always seemed like un-necessary advice to me, before certain >>>>>>> developments on retreat... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ...After which, I found that it was impossible to move the mind, and >>>>>>> the body could nonetheless move. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But the months of life afterwards with the mind not moving at all was a >>>>>>> continuing marvel and surprise. And yet, life was certainly possible, >>>>>>> and richer than ever before. "Decisions" and actions were the best I >>>>>>> have ever done. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And, Edgar, I found I could not only write, but I could type. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I had to type. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I needed to type because my job was to control an advanced >>>>>>> radio-telescope from a Tektronix terminal at the top of Pupin Hall, >>>>>>> 120th Street and Broadway. I discovered in these months giant filaments >>>>>>> of cold molecular gas, constrained and confined by magnetic fields, in >>>>>>> the Milky Way pouring from high above the galactic plane in the >>>>>>> Orion-Arm, and down onto the galactic disk, where the supersonic impact >>>>>>> from the flow stimulated the formation of stars in objects like >>>>>>> Monoceros R2, and the Rosette Nebula. The Great Nebula M42 in Orion is >>>>>>> part of this complex. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Decades more of practice and many more retreats and more awakenings >>>>>>> showed the same nature and character of our empty, still, awakened >>>>>>> state, in the midst of no-matter-what activity. No thoughts: nothing >>>>>>> moving. Life is a continuous intuition: the only mind is the mind we >>>>>>> all share, which is no mind. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I can say that the currents in the mind, or head, and the feeling or >>>>>>> sensation that there are thoughts, or ANYTHING moving at all, is an >>>>>>> illusion that pertains to the un-awakened state, and to that state >>>>>>> only. These things are illusions and delusions, but the awakened state >>>>>>> does not deprecate them: they are simply not present in the awakened >>>>>>> state, however; not present at all. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Surely, in the un-awakened state, there is the sense of something >>>>>>> moving, and of something that takes TIME to pass before the awareness. >>>>>>> This appears to indicate that free action of the mind is dammed-up, or >>>>>>> necked-down, in the un-awakened state, into a bottle-neck situation, >>>>>>> which is just what we might also expect. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> NOT in the awakened state. Nothing takes time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Prajna is likened to LIGHTNING, for this reason, BTW. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> See the Dorje lightning-bolt images at Tibetan places? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Prajna is entirely spontaneous and can not be mulled-over nor >>>>>>> formulated. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Compassion arises simultaneously with Prajna. Compassion is not >>>>>>> something that you FEEL, in the awakened state, you simply respond >>>>>>> naturally. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And so it is. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --Joe >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well obviously your mind was moving when you wrote this... The mind >>>>>>>> has to move to write... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> THAT's the experience... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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