;>)...
--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:
>
> That's not a pea pod. I'm just happy to see you!
> :-)
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On Nov 14, 2012, at 10:35 PM, Bill! wrote:
>
> > Edgar,
> >
> > Your pea pod is protruding again...
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill and Merle,
> > >
> > > But I was speaking of Bill's mind moving and categorizing and judging,
> > > not Merle's..
> > >
> > > Edgar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Nov 14, 2012, at 9:02 PM, Bill! wrote:
> > >
> > > > Merle,
> > > >
> > > > Edgar is right. Your mind is moving and very active.
> > > >
> > > > Of course he and I differ on the significance of that.
> > > >
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Merle,
> > > >>
> > > >> Exactly. There are always tons of things going on. Those who tell us
> > > >> only to shop when we go shopping, or only to eat while we are eating,
> > > >> are just repeating misleading Zen platitudes. Reality is not so simple
> > > >> that only one thing at a time is going on. And the whole concept of
> > > >> quantifying how many things are going on at any particular time is
> > > >> using the mind to categorize and count them. Reality itself has no
> > > >> such separation or counting between things. That's in the eye of an
> > > >> observer whose mind is moving...
> > > >>
> > > >> Edgar
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Nov 14, 2012, at 6:18 AM, Merle Lester wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> billlllllllll............ i have every admiration and respect for you
> > > >>> and your path.... maybe i am confused... you might shop shop when you
> > > >>> shop..so be it.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> .i shop too however i love observing and interacting with people....
> > > >>> endlessly fascinating creatures they are..
> > > >>>
> > > >>> . multi tasking you might add...is that a "zen sin"?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> merle
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Merle,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> There is indeed more to life than shopping, and that you engage it
> > > >>> all kinds of other activities while shopping; but when I am shopping,
> > > >>> I just shop - nothing else. There is an old zen adage to that effect:
> > > >>> "In walking, just walk. In sitting, just sit. Above all, don't
> > > >>> wobble."
> > > >>>
> > > >>> You're doing your pea-pod thing again. Where did you ever get the
> > > >>> idea I was "...obsessed with rules, books and teachers"? You do have
> > > >>> a very vivid imagination, I'll grant you that.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I'm happy you consider yourself your own teacher. I am glad you are
> > > >>> being true to your self, and are following the path you've made for
> > > >>> your self - if that works for you.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> It's probably because I don't consider myself a teacher that my path
> > > >>> is much less ambitious. I'm satisfied with a just trying to put into
> > > >>> practice a little advice from an old teacher of mine: "To study the
> > > >>> Buddha Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the
> > > >>> self. To forget the self is to be enlightened by the ten thousand
> > > >>> things." - Dogen
> > > >>>
> > > >>> ...Bill!
> > > >>>
> > > >>> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Â
> > > >>>> Â billlll you might shop and shop till you drop...there is more to
> > > >>>> life than shopping!
> > > >>>> i said i was my own teacher..you are obsessed with rules, books and
> > > >>>> teachers
> > > >>>> Â be to thy self true... there is no other path than the one you
> > > >>>> make yourself!..merle
> > > >>>> Â
> > > >>>> Merle,
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> You and Edgar are like two peas in a pod...always assuming people
> > > >>>> think something they probably don't and certainly didn't say.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Who on this group said you were a zen teacher? Only Edgar and you as
> > > >>>> far as I can remember.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Who on this group implied they did not believe you were a zen
> > > >>>> teacher? NO ONE to my knowledge.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I read the Zen Forum "...with my eyes wide open, my ears pricked and
> > > >>>> alert...".
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> When I shop, I shop.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> ...Bill!
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> ÃÂ bill..i shop with my eyes wide open, my ears pricked and alert..
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> you'd betold surprised at the amazing conversations i have had with
> > > >>>>> total strangers who suddenly for no reason eagerly tell me their
> > > >>>>> life stories..and i point them to zen!
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> ÃÂ i am a teacher after all which all of you in the group deny to
> > > >>>>> me
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> merle
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> ÃÂ merle
> > > >>>>> ÃÂ
> > > >>>>> Merle,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> When I go to the shopping mall I shop. What do you do?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> ...Bill!
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@>
> > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> edgar.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> .i can understand what you are saying...and that is how i see it
> > > >>>>>> except i cannot explain it like you have..
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> .zen to me is being in the moment alert and forever present...as i
> > > >>>>>> see it we zen through the day..
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> .practising zen to me is not sitting cross legged on "handwoven
> > > >>>>>> mats, Ãâàeyes shut tight, sniffing incense and ÃâÃÂ
> > > >>>>>> listening to gongs."
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> .it's being out there in the real world every minute alert
> > > >>>>>> breathing the breath..."zenning the zen"..so to speak..
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> . as as for those folk on those forum who are going to clap their
> > > >>>>>> hands and shout "horror horror where the hell is she at"? let me
> > > >>>>>> remind them..
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> .it's not me who's struggling with zen understanding
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Ãâàit's those hundreds of folk who we see everyday walking
> > > >>>>>> and talking as if in a shadowland( plato's cave).....ÃâÃÂ
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> next time you go to the shopping mall pay close attention and
> > > >>>>>> you'll very soon understand
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> merle
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> ÃâÃÂ
> > > >>>>>> Edgar,
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> It's good to see you back and well. Unfortunately I can't say the
> > > >>>>>> same about your theories.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> "It's an updated understanding of how mind works that was unknown
> > > >>>>>> when the Zen texts were written."ÃâÃÂ
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Are you saying that prior to this 'breakthru' in neuroscience the
> > > >>>>>> Patriarchs weren't practicing 'real' Zen, but that you now are? Is
> > > >>>>>> this discovery definitive or could there be further "updates"
> > > >>>>>> which would render the Zen you practice now obsolete? Are you in
> > > >>>>>> fact practicing Zen or somethingÃâàdifferent entirely?
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Mike
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> ________________________________
> > > >>>>>> From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>
> > > >>>>>> To: [email protected]
> > > >>>>>> Sent: Monday, 29 October 2012, 22:34
> > > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Is buddha nature coninuous?
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> ÃâÃÂ
> > > >>>>>> Joe,
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> I think you have a mistaken interpretation of what 'mind moving'
> > > >>>>>> actually means...
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Mind is a computational system that continually computes
> > > >>>>>> sensations, actions etc. Thus mind continually moves. There is no
> > > >>>>>> escaping that so long as you are alive. In fact measurements show
> > > >>>>>> that mind is almost as active during sleep as when awake.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> So mind always moves in that sense. Everything you do you do it
> > > >>>>>> precisely because your mind is moving.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> What Zen means by mind not moving is different. It means that mind
> > > >>>>>> moves in sync with reality, not in opposition to it. This 'Zen is
> > > >>>>>> mind not moving' platitude was written centuries ago when the
> > > >>>>>> computational dynamics of mind were not understood. It refers to a
> > > >>>>>> state when you don't consciously think you are deciding to take
> > > >>>>>> particular actions but actions seem to flow spontaneously from an
> > > >>>>>> unconscious inner source. However it is now known that is always
> > > >>>>>> happening anyway. The conscious mind actually very rarely makes
> > > >>>>>> any decisions at all even though it thinks it does. That's the
> > > >>>>>> illusion. The source of almost all decisions and actions is always
> > > >>>>>> the unconscious inner computational system.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> It's an updated understanding of how mind works that was unknown
> > > >>>>>> when the Zen texts were written.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> So Zen is 24/7, whether your mind is moving or not. If there is
> > > >>>>>> realization that is. Zen is a matter of realizing what is actually
> > > >>>>>> happening, not getting rid of all thoughts which is of course
> > > >>>>>> impossible if you want to function in reality and survive through
> > > >>>>>> the day...
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> True mindlessness = lobotomy or more accurately being dead!
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> If you want a reference even Suzuki Roshi agreed with this when I
> > > >>>>>> put it to him...
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Edgar
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> On Oct 29, 2012, at 4:30 PM, Joe wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> ÃâÃÂ
> > > >>>>>>> Edgar,
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Ha, ha.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Yeah, I don't get what motivates your comment.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Let's see if, no matter what mind you are in now, you can follow
> > > >>>>>>> a logical exposition:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> The Zen adept Sumie ink artists who paint big black circles on
> > > >>>>>>> rice paper do so with a mind that does not move: I mean, they do
> > > >>>>>>> it with NO mind (and hence, no mind-motion).
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> I remember our Shif-fu, on retreats, teaching us how to come OUT
> > > >>>>>>> of meditation. He'd say, "MOVE YOUR MIND, first, then move your
> > > >>>>>>> BODY, VERY SLOWLY, and sway your body in ever-widening circles
> > > >>>>>>> from the waist, first in direction, then in the other".
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> That always seemed like un-necessary advice to me, before certain
> > > >>>>>>> developments on retreat...
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> ...After which, I found that it was impossible to move the mind,
> > > >>>>>>> and the body could nonetheless move.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> But the months of life afterwards with the mind not moving at all
> > > >>>>>>> was a continuing marvel and surprise. And yet, life was certainly
> > > >>>>>>> possible, and richer than ever before. "Decisions" and actions
> > > >>>>>>> were the best I have ever done.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> And, Edgar, I found I could not only write, but I could type.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> I had to type.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> I needed to type because my job was to control an advanced
> > > >>>>>>> radio-telescope from a Tektronix terminal at the top of Pupin
> > > >>>>>>> Hall, 120th Street and Broadway. I discovered in these months
> > > >>>>>>> giant filaments of cold molecular gas, constrained and confined
> > > >>>>>>> by magnetic fields, in the Milky Way pouring from high above the
> > > >>>>>>> galactic plane in the Orion-Arm, and down onto the galactic disk,
> > > >>>>>>> where the supersonic impact from the flow stimulated the
> > > >>>>>>> formation of stars in objects like Monoceros R2, and the Rosette
> > > >>>>>>> Nebula. The Great Nebula M42 in Orion is part of this complex.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Decades more of practice and many more retreats and more
> > > >>>>>>> awakenings showed the same nature and character of our empty,
> > > >>>>>>> still, awakened state, in the midst of no-matter-what activity.
> > > >>>>>>> No thoughts: nothing moving. Life is a continuous intuition: the
> > > >>>>>>> only mind is the mind we all share, which is no mind.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> I can say that the currents in the mind, or head, and the feeling
> > > >>>>>>> or sensation that there are thoughts, or ANYTHING moving at all,
> > > >>>>>>> is an illusion that pertains to the un-awakened state, and to
> > > >>>>>>> that state only. These things are illusions and delusions, but
> > > >>>>>>> the awakened state does not deprecate them: they are simply not
> > > >>>>>>> present in the awakened state, however; not present at all.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Surely, in the un-awakened state, there is the sense of something
> > > >>>>>>> moving, and of something that takes TIME to pass before the
> > > >>>>>>> awareness. This appears to indicate that free action of the mind
> > > >>>>>>> is dammed-up, or necked-down, in the un-awakened state, into a
> > > >>>>>>> bottle-neck situation, which is just what we might also expect.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> NOT in the awakened state. Nothing takes time.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Prajna is likened to LIGHTNING, for this reason, BTW.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> See the Dorje lightning-bolt images at Tibetan places?
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Prajna is entirely spontaneous and can not be mulled-over nor
> > > >>>>>>> formulated.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Compassion arises simultaneously with Prajna. Compassion is not
> > > >>>>>>> something that you FEEL, in the awakened state, you simply
> > > >>>>>>> respond naturally.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> And so it is.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> --Joe
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Joe,
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Well obviously your mind was moving when you wrote this... The
> > > >>>>>>>> mind has to move to write...
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> THAT's the experience...
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
------------------------------------
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