Edgar, Your pea pod is protruding again...
...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill and Merle, > > But I was speaking of Bill's mind moving and categorizing and judging, not > Merle's.. > > Edgar > > > > On Nov 14, 2012, at 9:02 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > Merle, > > > > Edgar is right. Your mind is moving and very active. > > > > Of course he and I differ on the significance of that. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > >> > >> Merle, > >> > >> Exactly. There are always tons of things going on. Those who tell us only > >> to shop when we go shopping, or only to eat while we are eating, are just > >> repeating misleading Zen platitudes. Reality is not so simple that only > >> one thing at a time is going on. And the whole concept of quantifying how > >> many things are going on at any particular time is using the mind to > >> categorize and count them. Reality itself has no such separation or > >> counting between things. That's in the eye of an observer whose mind is > >> moving... > >> > >> Edgar > >> > >> > >> On Nov 14, 2012, at 6:18 AM, Merle Lester wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> billlllllllll............ i have every admiration and respect for you and > >>> your path.... maybe i am confused... you might shop shop when you > >>> shop..so be it. > >>> > >>> .i shop too however i love observing and interacting with people.... > >>> endlessly fascinating creatures they are.. > >>> > >>> . multi tasking you might add...is that a "zen sin"? > >>> > >>> merle > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Merle, > >>> > >>> There is indeed more to life than shopping, and that you engage it all > >>> kinds of other activities while shopping; but when I am shopping, I just > >>> shop - nothing else. There is an old zen adage to that effect: "In > >>> walking, just walk. In sitting, just sit. Above all, don't wobble." > >>> > >>> You're doing your pea-pod thing again. Where did you ever get the idea I > >>> was "...obsessed with rules, books and teachers"? You do have a very > >>> vivid imagination, I'll grant you that. > >>> > >>> I'm happy you consider yourself your own teacher. I am glad you are being > >>> true to your self, and are following the path you've made for your self - > >>> if that works for you. > >>> > >>> It's probably because I don't consider myself a teacher that my path is > >>> much less ambitious. I'm satisfied with a just trying to put into > >>> practice a little advice from an old teacher of mine: "To study the > >>> Buddha Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. > >>> To forget the self is to be enlightened by the ten thousand things." - > >>> Dogen > >>> > >>> ...Bill! > >>> > >>> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>  > >>>>  billlll you might shop and shop till you drop...there is more to life > >>>> than shopping! > >>>> i said i was my own teacher..you are obsessed with rules, books and > >>>> teachers > >>>>  be to thy self true... there is no other path than the one you make > >>>> yourself!..merle > >>>>  > >>>> Merle, > >>>> > >>>> You and Edgar are like two peas in a pod...always assuming people think > >>>> something they probably don't and certainly didn't say. > >>>> > >>>> Who on this group said you were a zen teacher? Only Edgar and you as far > >>>> as I can remember. > >>>> > >>>> Who on this group implied they did not believe you were a zen teacher? > >>>> NO ONE to my knowledge. > >>>> > >>>> I read the Zen Forum "...with my eyes wide open, my ears pricked and > >>>> alert...". > >>>> > >>>> When I shop, I shop. > >>>> > >>>> ...Bill! > >>>> > >>>> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> àbill..i shop with my eyes wide open, my ears pricked and alert.. > >>>>> > >>>>> you'd betold surprised at the amazing conversations i have had with > >>>>> total strangers who suddenly for no reason eagerly tell me their life > >>>>> stories..and i point them to zen! > >>>>> > >>>>> ài am a teacher after all which all of you in the group deny to me > >>>>> > >>>>> merle > >>>>> > >>>>> àmerle > >>>>> à> >>>>> Merle, > >>>>> > >>>>> When I go to the shopping mall I shop. What do you do? > >>>>> > >>>>> ...Bill! > >>>>> > >>>>> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> edgar. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> .i can understand what you are saying...and that is how i see it > >>>>>> except i cannot explain it like you have.. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> .zen to me is being in the moment alert and forever present...as i see > >>>>>> it we zen through the day.. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> .practising zen to me is not sitting cross legged on "handwoven mats, > >>>>>> Ãâàeyes shut tight, sniffing incense and Ãâàlistening to > >>>>>> gongs." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> .it's being out there in the real world every minute alert breathing > >>>>>> the breath..."zenning the zen"..so to speak.. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> . as as for those folk on those forum who are going to clap their > >>>>>> hands and shout "horror horror where the hell is she at"? let me > >>>>>> remind them.. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> .it's not me who's struggling with zen understanding > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Ãâàit's those hundreds of folk who we see everyday walking and > >>>>>> talking as if in a shadowland( plato's cave).....Ãâà> >>>>>> > >>>>>> next time you go to the shopping mall pay close attention and you'll > >>>>>> very soon understand > >>>>>> > >>>>>> merle > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Ãâà> >>>>>> Edgar, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> It's good to see you back and well. Unfortunately I can't say the same > >>>>>> about your theories. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "It's an updated understanding of how mind works that was unknown when > >>>>>> the Zen texts were written."Ãâà> >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Are you saying that prior to this 'breakthru' in neuroscience the > >>>>>> Patriarchs weren't practicing 'real' Zen, but that you now are? Is > >>>>>> this discovery definitive or could there be further "updates" which > >>>>>> would render the Zen you practice now obsolete? Are you in fact > >>>>>> practicing Zen or somethingÃâàdifferent entirely? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Mike > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>>> From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> > >>>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>>> Sent: Monday, 29 October 2012, 22:34 > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Is buddha nature coninuous? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Ãâà> >>>>>> Joe, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I think you have a mistaken interpretation of what 'mind moving' > >>>>>> actually means... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Mind is a computational system that continually computes sensations, > >>>>>> actions etc. Thus mind continually moves. There is no escaping that so > >>>>>> long as you are alive. In fact measurements show that mind is almost > >>>>>> as active during sleep as when awake. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So mind always moves in that sense. Everything you do you do it > >>>>>> precisely because your mind is moving. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> What Zen means by mind not moving is different. It means that mind > >>>>>> moves in sync with reality, not in opposition to it. This 'Zen is mind > >>>>>> not moving' platitude was written centuries ago when the computational > >>>>>> dynamics of mind were not understood. It refers to a state when you > >>>>>> don't consciously think you are deciding to take particular actions > >>>>>> but actions seem to flow spontaneously from an unconscious inner > >>>>>> source. However it is now known that is always happening anyway. The > >>>>>> conscious mind actually very rarely makes any decisions at all even > >>>>>> though it thinks it does. That's the illusion. The source of almost > >>>>>> all decisions and actions is always the unconscious inner > >>>>>> computational system. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> It's an updated understanding of how mind works that was unknown when > >>>>>> the Zen texts were written. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So Zen is 24/7, whether your mind is moving or not. If there is > >>>>>> realization that is. Zen is a matter of realizing what is actually > >>>>>> happening, not getting rid of all thoughts which is of course > >>>>>> impossible if you want to function in reality and survive through the > >>>>>> day... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> True mindlessness = lobotomy or more accurately being dead! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If you want a reference even Suzuki Roshi agreed with this when I put > >>>>>> it to him... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Edgar > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Oct 29, 2012, at 4:30 PM, Joe wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Ãâà> >>>>>>> Edgar, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Ha, ha. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Yeah, I don't get what motivates your comment. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Let's see if, no matter what mind you are in now, you can follow a > >>>>>>> logical exposition: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The Zen adept Sumie ink artists who paint big black circles on rice > >>>>>>> paper do so with a mind that does not move: I mean, they do it with > >>>>>>> NO mind (and hence, no mind-motion). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I remember our Shif-fu, on retreats, teaching us how to come OUT of > >>>>>>> meditation. He'd say, "MOVE YOUR MIND, first, then move your BODY, > >>>>>>> VERY SLOWLY, and sway your body in ever-widening circles from the > >>>>>>> waist, first in direction, then in the other". > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> That always seemed like un-necessary advice to me, before certain > >>>>>>> developments on retreat... > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ...After which, I found that it was impossible to move the mind, and > >>>>>>> the body could nonetheless move. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> But the months of life afterwards with the mind not moving at all was > >>>>>>> a continuing marvel and surprise. And yet, life was certainly > >>>>>>> possible, and richer than ever before. "Decisions" and actions were > >>>>>>> the best I have ever done. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> And, Edgar, I found I could not only write, but I could type. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I had to type. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I needed to type because my job was to control an advanced > >>>>>>> radio-telescope from a Tektronix terminal at the top of Pupin Hall, > >>>>>>> 120th Street and Broadway. I discovered in these months giant > >>>>>>> filaments of cold molecular gas, constrained and confined by magnetic > >>>>>>> fields, in the Milky Way pouring from high above the galactic plane > >>>>>>> in the Orion-Arm, and down onto the galactic disk, where the > >>>>>>> supersonic impact from the flow stimulated the formation of stars in > >>>>>>> objects like Monoceros R2, and the Rosette Nebula. The Great Nebula > >>>>>>> M42 in Orion is part of this complex. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Decades more of practice and many more retreats and more awakenings > >>>>>>> showed the same nature and character of our empty, still, awakened > >>>>>>> state, in the midst of no-matter-what activity. No thoughts: nothing > >>>>>>> moving. Life is a continuous intuition: the only mind is the mind we > >>>>>>> all share, which is no mind. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I can say that the currents in the mind, or head, and the feeling or > >>>>>>> sensation that there are thoughts, or ANYTHING moving at all, is an > >>>>>>> illusion that pertains to the un-awakened state, and to that state > >>>>>>> only. These things are illusions and delusions, but the awakened > >>>>>>> state does not deprecate them: they are simply not present in the > >>>>>>> awakened state, however; not present at all. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Surely, in the un-awakened state, there is the sense of something > >>>>>>> moving, and of something that takes TIME to pass before the > >>>>>>> awareness. This appears to indicate that free action of the mind is > >>>>>>> dammed-up, or necked-down, in the un-awakened state, into a > >>>>>>> bottle-neck situation, which is just what we might also expect. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> NOT in the awakened state. Nothing takes time. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Prajna is likened to LIGHTNING, for this reason, BTW. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> See the Dorje lightning-bolt images at Tibetan places? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Prajna is entirely spontaneous and can not be mulled-over nor > >>>>>>> formulated. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Compassion arises simultaneously with Prajna. Compassion is not > >>>>>>> something that you FEEL, in the awakened state, you simply respond > >>>>>>> naturally. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> And so it is. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> --Joe > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Joe, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Well obviously your mind was moving when you wrote this... The mind > >>>>>>>> has to move to write... > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> THAT's the experience... > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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