By the way, I just realized the subject of this thread is an oxymoron...Bill!
--- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > ;>)... > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > That's not a pea pod. I'm just happy to see you! > > :-) > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On Nov 14, 2012, at 10:35 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > Your pea pod is protruding again... > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill and Merle, > > > > > > > > But I was speaking of Bill's mind moving and categorizing and judging, > > > > not Merle's.. > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 14, 2012, at 9:02 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > Edgar is right. Your mind is moving and very active. > > > > > > > > > > Of course he and I differ on the significance of that. > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> Merle, > > > > >> > > > > >> Exactly. There are always tons of things going on. Those who tell us > > > > >> only to shop when we go shopping, or only to eat while we are > > > > >> eating, are just repeating misleading Zen platitudes. Reality is not > > > > >> so simple that only one thing at a time is going on. And the whole > > > > >> concept of quantifying how many things are going on at any > > > > >> particular time is using the mind to categorize and count them. > > > > >> Reality itself has no such separation or counting between things. > > > > >> That's in the eye of an observer whose mind is moving... > > > > >> > > > > >> Edgar > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On Nov 14, 2012, at 6:18 AM, Merle Lester wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> billlllllllll............ i have every admiration and respect for > > > > >>> you and your path.... maybe i am confused... you might shop shop > > > > >>> when you shop..so be it. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> .i shop too however i love observing and interacting with > > > > >>> people.... endlessly fascinating creatures they are.. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> . multi tasking you might add...is that a "zen sin"? > > > > >>> > > > > >>> merle > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Merle, > > > > >>> > > > > >>> There is indeed more to life than shopping, and that you engage it > > > > >>> all kinds of other activities while shopping; but when I am > > > > >>> shopping, I just shop - nothing else. There is an old zen adage to > > > > >>> that effect: "In walking, just walk. In sitting, just sit. Above > > > > >>> all, don't wobble." > > > > >>> > > > > >>> You're doing your pea-pod thing again. Where did you ever get the > > > > >>> idea I was "...obsessed with rules, books and teachers"? You do > > > > >>> have a very vivid imagination, I'll grant you that. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> I'm happy you consider yourself your own teacher. I am glad you are > > > > >>> being true to your self, and are following the path you've made for > > > > >>> your self - if that works for you. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> It's probably because I don't consider myself a teacher that my > > > > >>> path is much less ambitious. I'm satisfied with a just trying to > > > > >>> put into practice a little advice from an old teacher of mine: "To > > > > >>> study the Buddha Way is to study the self. To study the self is to > > > > >>> forget the self. To forget the self is to be enlightened by the ten > > > > >>> thousand things." - Dogen > > > > >>> > > > > >>> ...Bill! > > > > >>> > > > > >>> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>>  > > > > >>>>  billlll you might shop and shop till you drop...there is more to > > > > >>>> life than shopping! > > > > >>>> i said i was my own teacher..you are obsessed with rules, books > > > > >>>> and teachers > > > > >>>>  be to thy self true... there is no other path than the one you > > > > >>>> make yourself!..merle > > > > >>>>  > > > > >>>> Merle, > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> You and Edgar are like two peas in a pod...always assuming people > > > > >>>> think something they probably don't and certainly didn't say. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Who on this group said you were a zen teacher? Only Edgar and you > > > > >>>> as far as I can remember. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Who on this group implied they did not believe you were a zen > > > > >>>> teacher? NO ONE to my knowledge. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> I read the Zen Forum "...with my eyes wide open, my ears pricked > > > > >>>> and alert...". > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> When I shop, I shop. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> ...Bill! > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > > > >>>> wrote: > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> àbill..i shop with my eyes wide open, my ears pricked and > > > > >>>>> alert.. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> you'd betold surprised at the amazing conversations i have had > > > > >>>>> with total strangers who suddenly for no reason eagerly tell me > > > > >>>>> their life stories..and i point them to zen! > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> ài am a teacher after all which all of you in the group deny > > > > >>>>> to me > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> merle > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> àmerle > > > > >>>>> à> > > > >>>>> Merle, > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> When I go to the shopping mall I shop. What do you do? > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> ...Bill! > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> edgar. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> .i can understand what you are saying...and that is how i see it > > > > >>>>>> except i cannot explain it like you have.. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> .zen to me is being in the moment alert and forever present...as > > > > >>>>>> i see it we zen through the day.. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> .practising zen to me is not sitting cross legged on "handwoven > > > > >>>>>> mats, Ãâàeyes shut tight, sniffing incense and Ãâà> > > > >>>>>> listening to gongs." > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> .it's being out there in the real world every minute alert > > > > >>>>>> breathing the breath..."zenning the zen"..so to speak.. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> . as as for those folk on those forum who are going to clap > > > > >>>>>> their hands and shout "horror horror where the hell is she at"? > > > > >>>>>> let me remind them.. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> .it's not me who's struggling with zen understanding > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Ãâàit's those hundreds of folk who we see everyday walking > > > > >>>>>> and talking as if in a shadowland( plato's cave).....Ãâà> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> next time you go to the shopping mall pay close attention and > > > > >>>>>> you'll very soon understand > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> merle > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Ãâà> > > > >>>>>> Edgar, > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> It's good to see you back and well. Unfortunately I can't say > > > > >>>>>> the same about your theories. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> "It's an updated understanding of how mind works that was > > > > >>>>>> unknown when the Zen texts were written."Ãâà> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Are you saying that prior to this 'breakthru' in neuroscience > > > > >>>>>> the Patriarchs weren't practicing 'real' Zen, but that you now > > > > >>>>>> are? Is this discovery definitive or could there be further > > > > >>>>>> "updates" which would render the Zen you practice now obsolete? > > > > >>>>>> Are you in fact practicing Zen or somethingÃâàdifferent > > > > >>>>>> entirely? > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Mike > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> ________________________________ > > > > >>>>>> From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> > > > > >>>>>> To: [email protected] > > > > >>>>>> Sent: Monday, 29 October 2012, 22:34 > > > > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Is buddha nature coninuous? > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Ãâà> > > > >>>>>> Joe, > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> I think you have a mistaken interpretation of what 'mind moving' > > > > >>>>>> actually means... > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Mind is a computational system that continually computes > > > > >>>>>> sensations, actions etc. Thus mind continually moves. There is > > > > >>>>>> no escaping that so long as you are alive. In fact measurements > > > > >>>>>> show that mind is almost as active during sleep as when awake. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> So mind always moves in that sense. Everything you do you do it > > > > >>>>>> precisely because your mind is moving. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> What Zen means by mind not moving is different. It means that > > > > >>>>>> mind moves in sync with reality, not in opposition to it. This > > > > >>>>>> 'Zen is mind not moving' platitude was written centuries ago > > > > >>>>>> when the computational dynamics of mind were not understood. It > > > > >>>>>> refers to a state when you don't consciously think you are > > > > >>>>>> deciding to take particular actions but actions seem to flow > > > > >>>>>> spontaneously from an unconscious inner source. However it is > > > > >>>>>> now known that is always happening anyway. The conscious mind > > > > >>>>>> actually very rarely makes any decisions at all even though it > > > > >>>>>> thinks it does. That's the illusion. The source of almost all > > > > >>>>>> decisions and actions is always the unconscious inner > > > > >>>>>> computational system. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> It's an updated understanding of how mind works that was unknown > > > > >>>>>> when the Zen texts were written. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> So Zen is 24/7, whether your mind is moving or not. If there is > > > > >>>>>> realization that is. Zen is a matter of realizing what is > > > > >>>>>> actually happening, not getting rid of all thoughts which is of > > > > >>>>>> course impossible if you want to function in reality and survive > > > > >>>>>> through the day... > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> True mindlessness = lobotomy or more accurately being dead! > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> If you want a reference even Suzuki Roshi agreed with this when > > > > >>>>>> I put it to him... > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Edgar > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> On Oct 29, 2012, at 4:30 PM, Joe wrote: > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Ãâà> > > > >>>>>>> Edgar, > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> Ha, ha. > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> Yeah, I don't get what motivates your comment. > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> Let's see if, no matter what mind you are in now, you can > > > > >>>>>>> follow a logical exposition: > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> The Zen adept Sumie ink artists who paint big black circles on > > > > >>>>>>> rice paper do so with a mind that does not move: I mean, they > > > > >>>>>>> do it with NO mind (and hence, no mind-motion). > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> I remember our Shif-fu, on retreats, teaching us how to come > > > > >>>>>>> OUT of meditation. He'd say, "MOVE YOUR MIND, first, then move > > > > >>>>>>> your BODY, VERY SLOWLY, and sway your body in ever-widening > > > > >>>>>>> circles from the waist, first in direction, then in the other". > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> That always seemed like un-necessary advice to me, before > > > > >>>>>>> certain developments on retreat... > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> ...After which, I found that it was impossible to move the > > > > >>>>>>> mind, and the body could nonetheless move. > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> But the months of life afterwards with the mind not moving at > > > > >>>>>>> all was a continuing marvel and surprise. And yet, life was > > > > >>>>>>> certainly possible, and richer than ever before. "Decisions" > > > > >>>>>>> and actions were the best I have ever done. > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> And, Edgar, I found I could not only write, but I could type. > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> I had to type. > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> I needed to type because my job was to control an advanced > > > > >>>>>>> radio-telescope from a Tektronix terminal at the top of Pupin > > > > >>>>>>> Hall, 120th Street and Broadway. I discovered in these months > > > > >>>>>>> giant filaments of cold molecular gas, constrained and confined > > > > >>>>>>> by magnetic fields, in the Milky Way pouring from high above > > > > >>>>>>> the galactic plane in the Orion-Arm, and down onto the galactic > > > > >>>>>>> disk, where the supersonic impact from the flow stimulated the > > > > >>>>>>> formation of stars in objects like Monoceros R2, and the > > > > >>>>>>> Rosette Nebula. The Great Nebula M42 in Orion is part of this > > > > >>>>>>> complex. > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> Decades more of practice and many more retreats and more > > > > >>>>>>> awakenings showed the same nature and character of our empty, > > > > >>>>>>> still, awakened state, in the midst of no-matter-what activity. > > > > >>>>>>> No thoughts: nothing moving. Life is a continuous intuition: > > > > >>>>>>> the only mind is the mind we all share, which is no mind. > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> I can say that the currents in the mind, or head, and the > > > > >>>>>>> feeling or sensation that there are thoughts, or ANYTHING > > > > >>>>>>> moving at all, is an illusion that pertains to the un-awakened > > > > >>>>>>> state, and to that state only. These things are illusions and > > > > >>>>>>> delusions, but the awakened state does not deprecate them: they > > > > >>>>>>> are simply not present in the awakened state, however; not > > > > >>>>>>> present at all. > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> Surely, in the un-awakened state, there is the sense of > > > > >>>>>>> something moving, and of something that takes TIME to pass > > > > >>>>>>> before the awareness. This appears to indicate that free action > > > > >>>>>>> of the mind is dammed-up, or necked-down, in the un-awakened > > > > >>>>>>> state, into a bottle-neck situation, which is just what we > > > > >>>>>>> might also expect. > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> NOT in the awakened state. Nothing takes time. > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> Prajna is likened to LIGHTNING, for this reason, BTW. > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> See the Dorje lightning-bolt images at Tibetan places? > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> Prajna is entirely spontaneous and can not be mulled-over nor > > > > >>>>>>> formulated. > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> Compassion arises simultaneously with Prajna. Compassion is not > > > > >>>>>>> something that you FEEL, in the awakened state, you simply > > > > >>>>>>> respond naturally. > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> And so it is. > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> --Joe > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> Joe, > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> Well obviously your mind was moving when you wrote this... The > > > > >>>>>>>> mind has to move to write... > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> THAT's the experience... > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
