Edgar, You're correct. I don't, but RAF clearly does. It's the same with all illusion. If you believe it's real it can have real effects on you. Like feeling guilty, or feeling like you sinned.
I just expressed my hope that RAF finds a way to share his thoughts in a way that will make him feel he is avoiding or at least reducing the amount of negative karma he thinks he may be accumulating; or perhaps even start accumulating positive karma if he believes karma comes in those two flavors. I do agree with some of the others' suggestions that RAF's insights into genetic science and/or evolutionary psychology sound like something that would much better received on a forum dedicated specifically to those fields, or at least focused on science. Since he sounds like he's mainly interested in acceptance and definitely looking to avoid any hint of challenge or rejection he might even consider just starting a BLOG in which he could record and publish his insights, perhaps allowing some questions or comments if and when he feels ready for that kind of interaction. If he wants to do that I suggest he check out Wordpress (http://wordpress.org/) for some very practical and user-friendly blog software. Another thing he could consider would be to start his own Yahoo! Group dedicated to his area of focus - whatever that is. Anything to keep the karma wolf from the door... ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > I thought you didn't believe in karma? > > Edgar > > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 10:19 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > RAF (via Edgar), > > > > Although I find your assertion that genetic science and evolutionary > > psychology have anything at all to do with zen besides further muddying the > > waters (remember the moon?) I can assure you that I do not assert that I > > know what is 'morally right and wrong' and do not hold any of my views as > > 'righteous' at all. When I speak assertively, positively and confidently it > > is because they are the results of experience - not thought. I do have to > > express this experience in thought and certainly run into my share of > > problems there, but this is the reason I participate in the Yahoo! Zen > > Forum (and others) - to improve my ability to communicate my experience. > > > > But as both Edgar and even Merle will tell you I am always open to hearing > > other's points of view. That doesn't mean I'll agree and also doesn't mean > > I won't push back or ask difficult questions. > > > > If you wish to participate in the Zen Forum directly or indirectly (via > > Edgar) please do. If you wish to start up private email discussions between > > yourself and our members you're of course welcome to do that also. > > > > However you decide to proceed I certainly hope it helps you with that karma > > problem you seem to think you have. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > You are a persuasive fellow, Edgar, and I am mindful of the negative > > > > karma of hiding the dharma, but remain dubious that any of the lurkers > > > > will be more receptive of my insight than those who post. So, let's do > > > > this: you may post this, and antecedent e-mails to the group with the > > > > following statement. > > > > > > > > Whereas I am grateful for those who gave me a glimpse of the moon, I am > > > > willing to discuss the dharma with those who have an open mind > > > > regarding the insights of genetic science and evolutionary psychology. > > > > Those of you who believe the historic-but-pre-scientific Way of Zen is > > > > already perfect, and, in particular that the current manifestation of > > > > the zen tradition is acceptable, should not waste our time by > > > > contacting me. In particular, those who believe you already know what > > > > is morally right and wrong, in accordance with the dharma, will not be > > > > able to comprehend my view. Those who believe that anything which > > > > happens to agree with your inclinations is 'zen', or who would argue > > > > that promiscuous altruism is righteousness would be wasting their time > > > > to communicate with me. Those of you who believe that emotional states > > > > you may have experienced are self authenticating and have given you > > > > access to 'truth' are probably not ready to understand me. > > > > > > > > I do not absolutely refuse to communicate with Bill, Joe, or even > > > > Chris, Mike or Merle, but unless those of you who agree with the views > > > > they have expressed can abandon the assumption that your views are > > > > congruent with 'righteousness' I don't think I can help you, and I have > > > > no interest in disputation. > > > > > > > > RAF > > > > > > > > From: Edgar Owen <Edgar@> > > > > To: "rafonda@" <rafonda@> > > > > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 7:38 AM > > > > Subject: Re: re > > > > > > > > There are actually several hundred members of the group who likely read > > > > but don't post. Think of all those poor souls starved for the truth! > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 11, 2013, at 9:34 PM, rafonda@ wrote: > > > > > > > >> I appreciate the implication of this, but recall that I eschewed the > > > >> Bodhisattva vows, though of course I didn't know this pack of losers > > > >> then. Still, because I am mindful of the karmic debt I owe to those > > > >> who pointed out the moon to me, I not only imparted my view, but did > > > >> so several times, in spite of rudeness and scorn: obligation > > > >> discharged. I am not attached to teaching or 'saving' these people. In > > > >> the cases of some of them, I actually feel something like > > > >> schadenfreude: it is their karmic burden to have denied others > > > >> whatever assistance I might have provided, by scorning my wisdom, so > > > >> not only are they blundering off in 'darkness', but they have denied > > > >> the light to others. > > > >> > > > >> If I actually thought any of them had ears to hear, I would speak > > > >> again, but they are too full of themselves, and the PC > > > >> semblance-of-zen of this era actually does confirm their rejection of > > > >> my view, so I am content to follow my Way and keep my own counsel: let > > > >> everyone work out their own salvation ;-) > > > >> > > > >> RAF > > > >> > > > >> From: Edgar Owen <Edgar@> > > > >> To: "rafonda@ Fonda" <rafonda@> > > > >> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 12:36 PM > > > >> Subject: re > > > >> > > > >> PS: I really wish you'd post your thoughts to the Zen group as well as > > > >> just me. Would be an excellent counter to all the nonsense there... > > > >> > > > >> Thanks, > > > >> Edgar > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
