Edgar, I think we're getting very close here to the core of our disagreements, and I think this has to do with your continual use of the word 'Zen' whereas I use 'experience Buddha Nature' Below you wrote: [Edgar] "First you use reason to understand the world of forms. Only then can you experience the true nature of the world of forms. That's Zen..." My question to you was: [Bill!] "What then of all the sentient beings that are not endowed with the ability to reason?" Now here's what maybe the difference-breaker...(I'm getting excited...) Are you saying that only beings that can employ reason can engage in (practice, partake of) Zen? This is NOT a trick question. There will be no 'gotcha's' no matter what you answer...I promise... ...Bill!
--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen wrote: > > What about them? > > Edgar > > > > On May 2, 2013, at 2:26 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > What then of all the sentient beings that are not endowed with the ability to reason? > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: > > > > > > In the history of humanity first things had to be figured out using reason. Only after learning them can they be done via second nature. > > > > > > This is another proof that first we must understand reality. Only then can it be directly experienced as it actually is. > > > > > > Of course we all directly experience reality anyway all the time. But without understanding what we are experiencing is the magician's tricks reality continually plays on us as illusion appears to be reality that we experience as reality. We are fooled into thinking illusion is reality if we have no understanding of the nature of forms. > > > > > > Not using reason to figure out reality is like trying to use water to start a fire. Never hatchy! > > > > > > First you use reason to figure out how to start a fire. Then you start a fire.... > > > > > > First you use reason to understand the world of forms. Only then can you experience the true nature of the world of forms. > > > > > > That's Zen... > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 1, 2013, at 3:25 PM, Email wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > My comment is addressed towards Joe's statement that " > > > > > > > > Our success as a species does not depend on models. It depends instead on real life. > > > > > > > > Much of it is genuine engagement with Nature, in Nature, and luck and spontaneity, and takes no time to "figure out". > > > > > > > > The figure-outers are in the dust, and tend not to pass on their genes. > > > > > > > > They'll argue that their way is the superior one, however. Of course they'll argue! There's little left for them. > > > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 1, 2013, at 2:08 PM, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > >> Gosh, this suggests that reason helps us survive because it accurately models reality! > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> What will Bill say? > > > >> :-) > > > >> > > > >> Edgar > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On May 1, 2013, at 3:06 PM, Email wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Figured out how to kill the Mammoth without being killed. Figured out what was safe to eat without being poisoned. Figured out how to survive. > > > >>> > > > >>> Sent from my iPhone > > > >>> > > > >>> On May 1, 2013, at 1:45 PM, "Joe" desert_woodworker@ wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Hi, William, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> OK, I'll bite. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Figured what out? > > > >>>> > > > >>>> --Joe > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > Email wrote: > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > I disagree. It was the first guy who attacked the Mammoth with a rock who failed to pass on his genes. The fellows who figured it out are our forefathers > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
