Bill, You experience illusions. Therefore they are things by your own definition.
Edgar On May 2, 2013, at 8:41 AM, Bill! wrote: > Edgar, > > Okay, we're still not in synch. > > I agree that Zen is the realization (I call it experience) of Buddha Nature > in all things without exception, but I don't consider illusions 'things' - I > only consider experience 'things'. > > I do believe all sentient being have Buddha Nature and that is why I exclude > reason as being a prerequisite. I don't think reason excludes a sentient > being from experiencing Buddha Nature but it's not necessary. > > I thought maybe we were going to be able to agree that 'zen' is a singularly > human activity, one in which humans experience (you say realize) Buddha > Nature, but it looks like that's not the case. > > You seem to still insist that intellect (reason) is required to 'realize' > Buddha Nature. I do not. > > Thanks for your reply...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > > Bill, > > > > This is another one difficult to put into words exactly so bear with me..... > > > > First to clear the air what I call Zen is realization of Buddha Nature in > > ALL things without exception. Everything is Buddha Nature, whether its > > original formlessness or all the forms that manifest it. > > > > Thus all beings are themselves also empty forms inhabiting the world of > > forms, but their essence, like the essence of all things, is Buddha Nature. > > > > The world of forms is like ripples, waves and currents in an ocean. The > > have no substance of their own. They are entirely manifestations of the > > underlying water. Likewise the world of forms is all empty forms in the sea > > of Buddha Nature. They have no substances of their own. They are all > > manifestations of the underlying formless Buddha Nature that is their only > > substance. > > > > Reality consists of the ocean of formless Buddha Nature and all the empty > > forms that exist within in it. > > > > All beings are themselves empty forms manifesting like waves in the all > > encompassing sea of Buddha Nature. > > > > Thus all beings are already enlightened because their only substance is > > that of the underlying formless Buddha Nature. > > > > Realized beings are the ones that understand this as opposed to the ones > > that don't. > > > > Everyone, every being, thus experiences Buddha Nature all the time. It is > > impossible not to because Buddha Nature IS ALL THAT EXISTS. > > > > When one realizes this there is instant enlightenment! > > > > Every being, every one, is already enlightened. Just open your mind's eye... > > > > WHAM! > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On May 2, 2013, at 6:53 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > I think we're getting very close here to the core of our disagreements, > > > and I think this has to do with your continual use of the word 'Zen' > > > whereas I use 'experience Buddha Nature' > > > > > > Below you wrote: > > > > > > [Edgar] "First you use reason to understand the world of forms. Only then > > > can you experience the true nature of the world of forms. That's Zen..." > > > > > > My question to you was: > > > > > > [Bill!] "What then of all the sentient beings that are not endowed with > > > the ability to reason?" > > > > > > Now here's what maybe the difference-breaker...(I'm getting excited...) > > > > > > Are you saying that only beings that can employ reason can engage in > > > (practice, partake of) Zen? > > > > > > This is NOT a trick question. There will be no 'gotcha's' no matter what > > > you answer...I promise... > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > > > > > What about them? > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 2, 2013, at 2:26 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > What then of all the sentient beings that are not endowed with the > > > > > ability to reason? > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > In the history of humanity first things had to be figured out using > > > > > > reason. Only after learning them can they be done via second nature. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is another proof that first we must understand reality. Only > > > > > > then can it be directly experienced as it actually is. > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course we all directly experience reality anyway all the time. > > > > > > But without understanding what we are experiencing is the > > > > > > magician's tricks reality continually plays on us as illusion > > > > > > appears to be reality that we experience as reality. We are fooled > > > > > > into thinking illusion is reality if we have no understanding of > > > > > > the nature of forms. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not using reason to figure out reality is like trying to use water > > > > > > to start a fire. Never hatchy! > > > > > > > > > > > > First you use reason to figure out how to start a fire. Then you > > > > > > start a fire.... > > > > > > > > > > > > First you use reason to understand the world of forms. Only then > > > > > > can you experience the true nature of the world of forms. > > > > > > > > > > > > That's Zen... > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 1, 2013, at 3:25 PM, Email wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My comment is addressed towards Joe's statement that " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Our success as a species does not depend on models. It depends > > > > > > > instead on real life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Much of it is genuine engagement with Nature, in Nature, and luck > > > > > > > and spontaneity, and takes no time to "figure out". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The figure-outers are in the dust, and tend not to pass on their > > > > > > > genes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They'll argue that their way is the superior one, however. Of > > > > > > > course they'll argue! There's little left for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 1, 2013, at 2:08 PM, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Gosh, this suggests that reason helps us survive because it > > > > > > >> accurately models reality! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> What will Bill say? > > > > > > >> :-) > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Edgar > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> On May 1, 2013, at 3:06 PM, Email wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Figured out how to kill the Mammoth without being killed. > > > > > > >>> Figured out what was safe to eat without being poisoned. > > > > > > >>> Figured out how to survive. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> On May 1, 2013, at 1:45 PM, "Joe" desert_woodworker@ wrote: > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> Hi, William, > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> OK, I'll bite. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> Figured what out? > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> --Joe > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> > Email wrote: > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> > I disagree. It was the first guy who attacked the Mammoth > > > > > > >>>> > with a rock who failed to pass on his genes. The fellows who > > > > > > >>>> > figured it out are our forefathers > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
