Edgar, Okay, we're still not in synch.
I agree that Zen is the realization (I call it experience) of Buddha Nature in all things without exception, but I don't consider illusions 'things' - I only consider experience 'things'. I do believe all sentient being have Buddha Nature and that is why I exclude reason as being a prerequisite. I don't think reason excludes a sentient being from experiencing Buddha Nature but it's not necessary. I thought maybe we were going to be able to agree that 'zen' is a singularly human activity, one in which humans experience (you say realize) Buddha Nature, but it looks like that's not the case. You seem to still insist that intellect (reason) is required to 'realize' Buddha Nature. I do not. Thanks for your reply...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > This is another one difficult to put into words exactly so bear with me..... > > First to clear the air what I call Zen is realization of Buddha Nature in ALL > things without exception. Everything is Buddha Nature, whether its original > formlessness or all the forms that manifest it. > > Thus all beings are themselves also empty forms inhabiting the world of > forms, but their essence, like the essence of all things, is Buddha Nature. > > The world of forms is like ripples, waves and currents in an ocean. The have > no substance of their own. They are entirely manifestations of the underlying > water. Likewise the world of forms is all empty forms in the sea of Buddha > Nature. They have no substances of their own. They are all manifestations of > the underlying formless Buddha Nature that is their only substance. > > Reality consists of the ocean of formless Buddha Nature and all the empty > forms that exist within in it. > > All beings are themselves empty forms manifesting like waves in the all > encompassing sea of Buddha Nature. > > Thus all beings are already enlightened because their only substance is that > of the underlying formless Buddha Nature. > > Realized beings are the ones that understand this as opposed to the ones that > don't. > > Everyone, every being, thus experiences Buddha Nature all the time. It is > impossible not to because Buddha Nature IS ALL THAT EXISTS. > > When one realizes this there is instant enlightenment! > > Every being, every one, is already enlightened. Just open your mind's eye... > > WHAM! > > Edgar > > > > On May 2, 2013, at 6:53 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > Edgar, > > > > I think we're getting very close here to the core of our disagreements, and > > I think this has to do with your continual use of the word 'Zen' whereas I > > use 'experience Buddha Nature' > > > > Below you wrote: > > > > [Edgar] "First you use reason to understand the world of forms. Only then > > can you experience the true nature of the world of forms. That's Zen..." > > > > My question to you was: > > > > [Bill!] "What then of all the sentient beings that are not endowed with > > the ability to reason?" > > > > Now here's what maybe the difference-breaker...(I'm getting excited...) > > > > Are you saying that only beings that can employ reason can engage in > > (practice, partake of) Zen? > > > > This is NOT a trick question. There will be no 'gotcha's' no matter what > > you answer...I promise... > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > > > What about them? > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 2, 2013, at 2:26 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > What then of all the sentient beings that are not endowed with the > > > > ability to reason? > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > In the history of humanity first things had to be figured out using > > > > > reason. Only after learning them can they be done via second nature. > > > > > > > > > > This is another proof that first we must understand reality. Only > > > > > then can it be directly experienced as it actually is. > > > > > > > > > > Of course we all directly experience reality anyway all the time. But > > > > > without understanding what we are experiencing is the magician's > > > > > tricks reality continually plays on us as illusion appears to be > > > > > reality that we experience as reality. We are fooled into thinking > > > > > illusion is reality if we have no understanding of the nature of > > > > > forms. > > > > > > > > > > Not using reason to figure out reality is like trying to use water to > > > > > start a fire. Never hatchy! > > > > > > > > > > First you use reason to figure out how to start a fire. Then you > > > > > start a fire.... > > > > > > > > > > First you use reason to understand the world of forms. Only then can > > > > > you experience the true nature of the world of forms. > > > > > > > > > > That's Zen... > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 1, 2013, at 3:25 PM, Email wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My comment is addressed towards Joe's statement that " > > > > > > > > > > > > Our success as a species does not depend on models. It depends > > > > > > instead on real life. > > > > > > > > > > > > Much of it is genuine engagement with Nature, in Nature, and luck > > > > > > and spontaneity, and takes no time to "figure out". > > > > > > > > > > > > The figure-outers are in the dust, and tend not to pass on their > > > > > > genes. > > > > > > > > > > > > They'll argue that their way is the superior one, however. Of > > > > > > course they'll argue! There's little left for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 1, 2013, at 2:08 PM, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Gosh, this suggests that reason helps us survive because it > > > > > >> accurately models reality! > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> What will Bill say? > > > > > >> :-) > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Edgar > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On May 1, 2013, at 3:06 PM, Email wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Figured out how to kill the Mammoth without being killed. Figured > > > > > >>> out what was safe to eat without being poisoned. Figured out how > > > > > >>> to survive. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Sent from my iPhone > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> On May 1, 2013, at 1:45 PM, "Joe" desert_woodworker@ wrote: > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> Hi, William, > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> OK, I'll bite. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> Figured what out? > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> --Joe > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > Email wrote: > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> > I disagree. It was the first guy who attacked the Mammoth with > > > > > >>>> > a rock who failed to pass on his genes. The fellows who > > > > > >>>> > figured it out are our forefathers > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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