Arg, this just shows to me the futility of words. I was all fine but then
your clarification of precedes etc. leaves me all wanting to argue.
Oh well. How about this for another question:
Is perception something that is related to "doing"? If no doing is
present, can perception be present? Does mere attentive witnessing already
cross your line of experience?
Thanks,
--Chris
ch...@austin-lane.net
+1-301-270-6524
On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 6:56 PM, Bill! <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:
> Chris,
>
> I'm not locked-in to the "preceding" aspect. As I've said on this thread
> I am not so concerned with the 'how' all this happens. I just know it
> happens. Monistic experience and pluralistic perceptions may indeed take
> place at the same time. In fact that does make some sense because these
> perceptions many times obscure monistic experience.
>
> I do believe monistic experience can occur without the arising of
> perception (samadhi/shikantaza); and perceptions (delusions) can arise that
> completely obscure monistic experience ('normal' human condition); and I do
> believe that even when perceptions arise monistic experience (Buddha
> Nature) is still present even though obscured.
>
> ...Bill!
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane <chris@...> wrote:
> >
> > I'm with you 100% except for "preceding." To me it seems to be different
> > categories - what you are calling experiencing is not a step in the
> > process. I can't say what I think it is.
> >
> > Anyways, thanks for your patience.
> >
> > And Edgar, there's no self, never has, regardless of whatever level of
> zen
> > training one has undertaken. It's all just computational substrate,
> right?
> > You can't cut bits out from the whole.
> >
> > --Chris
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > --Chris
> > chris@...
> > +1-301-270-6524
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Bill! <BillSmart@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Chris,
> > >
> > > Again, using your language below which talks about the brain's
> functions
> > > which would not be my choice of analogy...so please don't quote me on
> this
> > > outside of this thread.
> > >
> > > The way I see it experience is one of the most basic and fundamental
> > > functions of the brain of a sentient being. In zen literature it has
> been
> > > called such names as 'Original Mind' and 'Your Face Before Your Mother
> Was
> > > Born'. I am saying experience precedes the processing of any
> experience by
> > > the intellect which in zen literature has been called such names as
> 'Small
> > > Mind' and 'Monkey Mind'. When the intellect arises it creates the
> delusion
> > > of dualism/pluralism. This is the key. The delusion of a separate,
> unique
> > > 'self' is probably one of the first delusions that arises, but is
> quickly
> > > followed by all the other subject/object delusions that Edgar calls
> 'forms'
> > > and some Buddhist sects refer to as 'dharma' (small 'd' - phenomena).
> > >
> > > I don't see experience as "slightly at an angle to..." the arising of
> > > duality and perception, but just preceding it. Experience is
> > > "not-beginning and not-ending", sometimes referred to as 'in the
> moment' or
> > > 'only now'. I do associate experience with what you call "the wonder
> of
> > > presence" which I think I would just call 'awareness' which is
> monisitic -
> > > as contrasted with 'consciousness' which is dualistic.
> > >
> > > Perceiving only is the normal human condition.
> > >
> > > Experiencing only is Buddha Nature.
> > >
> > > Perceiving and experiencing is what I believe many refer to as
> 'awakening'
> > > or 'enlightenment'. What you 'awaken' to is the realization that
> > > perceptions are delusions and only experience is real.
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Bill,
> > > >
> > > > One more question on this:
> > > >
> > > > Do you envision what you are calling experience to be a step in the
> > > brains
> > > > normal functioning of responding to the environment in whatever way
> that
> > > > the brain does that, or something slightly at an angle to the work of
> > > > transforming sensory stimulation into mental stimulation? Something
> of
> > > > which it could be said to be not-beginning and not-ending?
> Something to
> > > > akin to what some people talk about as the wonder of presence? This
> very
> > > > moment. That sort of thing. Right here, right now.
> > > >
> > > > Or perhaps some third thing I'm not seeing, a step in the subjective
> side
> > > > of the brains functioning - something which is not from an eternal
> > > > perspective but is also not intended to be a description of the
> body/mind
> > > > functioning but a description of the way the human notices the
> absolute
> > > > along side the perception?
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or
> are
> > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
