Chris,
I think perceptions certainly could be seen as 'doing', if you as I do consider
'thinking' as doing something. So to follow it there is no doing there would
be no perceptions.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'attentive witnessing' but if it involves
thinking it would not be monisitc experience. For example if it involves it
involves a subject/relationship/object scenario (dualism/pluralism) such as a
witness/observing/something then it would not be a monistic experience and
would in my book involve thinking and perceiving.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane <chris@...> wrote:
>
> Arg, this just shows to me the futility of words. I was all fine but then
> your clarification of precedes etc. leaves me all wanting to argue.
>
> Oh well. How about this for another question:
>
> Is perception something that is related to "doing"? If no doing is
> present, can perception be present? Does mere attentive witnessing already
> cross your line of experience?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Chris
> chris@...
> +1-301-270-6524
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 6:56 PM, Bill! <BillSmart@...> wrote:
>
> > Chris,
> >
> > I'm not locked-in to the "preceding" aspect. As I've said on this thread
> > I am not so concerned with the 'how' all this happens. I just know it
> > happens. Monistic experience and pluralistic perceptions may indeed take
> > place at the same time. In fact that does make some sense because these
> > perceptions many times obscure monistic experience.
> >
> > I do believe monistic experience can occur without the arising of
> > perception (samadhi/shikantaza); and perceptions (delusions) can arise that
> > completely obscure monistic experience ('normal' human condition); and I do
> > believe that even when perceptions arise monistic experience (Buddha
> > Nature) is still present even though obscured.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm with you 100% except for "preceding." To me it seems to be different
> > > categories - what you are calling experiencing is not a step in the
> > > process. I can't say what I think it is.
> > >
> > > Anyways, thanks for your patience.
> > >
> > > And Edgar, there's no self, never has, regardless of whatever level of
> > zen
> > > training one has undertaken. It's all just computational substrate,
> > right?
> > > You can't cut bits out from the whole.
> > >
> > > --Chris
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > --Chris
> > > chris@
> > > +1-301-270-6524
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Chris,
> > > >
> > > > Again, using your language below which talks about the brain's
> > functions
> > > > which would not be my choice of analogy...so please don't quote me on
> > this
> > > > outside of this thread.
> > > >
> > > > The way I see it experience is one of the most basic and fundamental
> > > > functions of the brain of a sentient being. In zen literature it has
> > been
> > > > called such names as 'Original Mind' and 'Your Face Before Your Mother
> > Was
> > > > Born'. I am saying experience precedes the processing of any
> > experience by
> > > > the intellect which in zen literature has been called such names as
> > 'Small
> > > > Mind' and 'Monkey Mind'. When the intellect arises it creates the
> > delusion
> > > > of dualism/pluralism. This is the key. The delusion of a separate,
> > unique
> > > > 'self' is probably one of the first delusions that arises, but is
> > quickly
> > > > followed by all the other subject/object delusions that Edgar calls
> > 'forms'
> > > > and some Buddhist sects refer to as 'dharma' (small 'd' - phenomena).
> > > >
> > > > I don't see experience as "slightly at an angle to..." the arising of
> > > > duality and perception, but just preceding it. Experience is
> > > > "not-beginning and not-ending", sometimes referred to as 'in the
> > moment' or
> > > > 'only now'. I do associate experience with what you call "the wonder
> > of
> > > > presence" which I think I would just call 'awareness' which is
> > monisitic -
> > > > as contrasted with 'consciousness' which is dualistic.
> > > >
> > > > Perceiving only is the normal human condition.
> > > >
> > > > Experiencing only is Buddha Nature.
> > > >
> > > > Perceiving and experiencing is what I believe many refer to as
> > 'awakening'
> > > > or 'enlightenment'. What you 'awaken' to is the realization that
> > > > perceptions are delusions and only experience is real.
> > > >
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill,
> > > > >
> > > > > One more question on this:
> > > > >
> > > > > Do you envision what you are calling experience to be a step in the
> > > > brains
> > > > > normal functioning of responding to the environment in whatever way
> > that
> > > > > the brain does that, or something slightly at an angle to the work of
> > > > > transforming sensory stimulation into mental stimulation? Something
> > of
> > > > > which it could be said to be not-beginning and not-ending?
> > Something to
> > > > > akin to what some people talk about as the wonder of presence? This
> > very
> > > > > moment. That sort of thing. Right here, right now.
> > > > >
> > > > > Or perhaps some third thing I'm not seeing, a step in the subjective
> > side
> > > > > of the brains functioning - something which is not from an eternal
> > > > > perspective but is also not intended to be a description of the
> > body/mind
> > > > > functioning but a description of the way the human notices the
> > absolute
> > > > > along side the perception?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or
> > are
> > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
> > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
------------------------------------
Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com
zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
