Tres Seaver wrote:
> You need to identify whose ox is being gored here by dropping those
> packages:  I don't see anybody but you arguing for their inclusion.  In
> particular, I don't see anybody who knows *which* zope.app packages they
> need, and has a credible argument for why those pacakges should be
> maintained within the ZTK, rather than by the folks who actually use them.

That's indeed one of the problems.

Fact 1: We have users that use zope.app packages.

Fact 2: We suspect many of those uses are shallow and can be shifted 
over to non zope.app packages.

Fact 3: We don't have good maintainers for most zope.app packages.

Goal 1: We don't want to maintain most zope.app packages.

Goal 2: We want users to use the ZTK instead of the Zope 3.4 KGS.

Goal 3: We as a community have a certain ethic of supplying backwards 

Fact 4: A user can more easily shift a codebase to the ZTK if we make it 
easy for them with a KGS.

Fact 5: A ZTK-based KGS that is a smooth upgrade from the Zope 3.4 KGS 
helps such users to create a working environment based on the ZTK.

Goal 4: We don't want to create a large discontinuity for people using 
existing Zope 3 applications, Grok applications or Zope 2 applications.

Goal 5: We want to maintain a KGS that helps people upgrade.

Goal 6: We want to maintain such a KGS collectively if we can.

Fact 6: We were maintaining such a KGS within the ZTK.

Goal 7: We need a way to stop maintaining such a KGS within the ZTK.

Goal 8: We need a way to stop maintaining such a zopeapp KGS altogether 
(unless individuals step up that want to do so)

The following step was taken to accomplish goal 7 and 8.

Action 1: we removed the packages we don't want to maintain from the ZTK.

That accomplished goal 7 and 8, but conflicts with goal 6, 5, 3 and 2.

Action 2: we move the packages we don't want to maintain from the ZTK 
into zopeapp.

.. fulfills goal 7, and doesn't conflict with goal 6, 5, 3 and 2. It 
doesn't fulfill goal 8 yet, but it will help us, as a community get 
there, by isolating the problem.



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