Hanno Schlichting wrote:
[snip explanation of current Zope 2 and Plone plans, thanks]
> So the two main upgrade paths we have are Zope 3.3.2 to ZTK 0.5. And
> then at some point in maybe 12 to 18 months a ZTK 0.5 to ZTK x.y
> upgrade. This also means that an actual ZTK release, that is done
> anywhere before late 2010 is pretty much not usable for Zope 2. If the
> difference between our ZTK 0.5 release and the final version gets too
> large and breaks backwards compatibility, we have another problem.

ZTK 0.5 still contains zope.app.* packages, correct?

Assuming ZTK x.y won't have zope.app packages, this means that those 
upgrading to Zope 2.13 might be helped by a list of working versions of 
those zope.app.* packages (such as the one in zopeapp), or am I wrong? 
Of course I imagine this list is quite short in your case, as you were 
already on ZTK 0.5.

> Grok's release schedule obviously looks very different from this. And
> I have no idea what the schedules of any other potential users of the
> ZTK might look like. Agreeing on the scope and timeframe of the or
> many ZTK releases is going to be quite interesting in itself.

Yes, and agreeing about what transition support we supply seems to be 
even more interesting. :)

>> I missed where you offered this list for more general reuse. If I'd
>> known about it might have been useful for us working for Grok, and as a
>> basis of zopeapp.
>> I'm interested the current zopeapp to support the Grok transition and to
>> help people transition Zope 3 apps. I didn't realize Zope 2 was already
>> that far along having released earlier ZTK versions.
> Well, we did a freeze of our ZTK KGS with our Zope 2.12 beta 2
> release. This happened end of May 2009. At that point Grok was a long
> way from having an actual 1.0 release, which only happened much later
> facilitated by the Neanderthal sprint in September. This whole topic
> wasn't really on your radar at that point. 

Yes, it was too early for Grok.

That said, the ZTK topic has been on my radar from the start, and 
helping to start it we were obviously thinking about upgrading Grok to 
it from the start.

Earlier on, we had quite a big discussion about "What is the ZTK" where 
various people were arguing for starting with a short list and building 
it up, versus starting with the long list and whittling it down. At the 
time we went with the latter. One of the motivations for the long list I 
believe was to help people transition better.

I don't recall the splitting lists idea coming up (one main, one 
backwards compatibility) but that was probably because it was infeasible 
then given the large amount of zope.app dependencies we still had. At 
some point the Zope 2 developers came up with that idea as you evidently 
did it, but the idea didn't flow back into the ZTK at the time.



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