I have been dealing with this issue regularly since making the baroque
lute my primary solo instrument. For me, when my hand is rotated more
horizontally into thumb under position, I have a much larger target
zone on the pads of my index fingers from which to get what I at least
consider to be good tone. That Weiss himself may have played with a
tone that today I would consider brittle and harsh is possible, but
ultimately I've got to be content with my own sound and with the
variables of string composition, tension and playing location, there
are just too many variables for this amateur to contend with. Several
teachers have suggested making the transition (Stone, North, Stubbs).
Not sure about your "nearly all our notable baroque luteniststs play
thumb under" comment Ron. Barto started thumb in but now plays thumb
out, as do Richard Stone and Nigel North. I have seen Liddell and
O'Dette play thumb under on baroque lute, which at least helps justify
my own style to me.
Danny
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 2:27 PM, <[1]chriswi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Ron,
Good points. I'm working on exactly this point.
The main issue with true thumb-out is getting a decent and - far
more importantly - _consistent_ sound out of the treble strings.
There clearly was a marked aural difference between the too
positions that the baroquenists admired. How else to explain the
Stammbuch of Stobaeus when he contrasts the "pure, sharp, bright"
tone of thumb-out versus the "rotten and muffled" sound of old
thumb-under. I think most modern baroque lutenists attempt to
re-create the thumb-under sound. They therefore have an
anachronistic conception of tone.
I can't say that I agree with the "rotten and muffled" part, but
for me, there is nothing saying that a brighter sound can't be
expressive. In my experiments, I've found that it is quite possible
to have a wide range of timbral, tonal and dynamic shadings. The
lute just responds differently with the fingers in this position.
Still a work in progress.
The secondary issue is that the true baroque lute technique is
very, very close to modern classical guitar technique. I think this
strikes too close to home for many lutenists for whom thumb-under is
part of the (modern) "identity" of what it means to be a "real" lute
player, as distinct from wannabe classical guitarists who thrash
around on a pear-shaped instrument at ren. fests, etc.
Chris
--- On Tue, 1/19/10, Ron Andrico <[2]praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> From: Ron Andrico <[3]praelu...@hotmail.com>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
> To: [4]chriswi...@yahoo.com, [5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu,
[6]dwinh...@comcast.net
> Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 11:09 AM
> Chris & All:
> The rest stroke for the thumb seems a
> logical means to both produce a
> strong bass and teach the thumb to keep
> track of diapasons, although
> there is no specific referral to this
> technique by name in any written
> historical source I've seen. The
> term 'rest stroke' seems to be a
> classical guitar convention useful in
> adapting to lute technique. The
> thing I find extremely puzzling in the
> 'awful lot of paintings' you
> mention is that, for late 16th and almost
> all 17th century examples,
> there is a nearly uniform depiction of a
> thumb-out technique, which is
> also described clearly in written
> sources. With one exception, nearly
> all our notable baroque lutenists of
> today use a thumb-under
> technique. This even applies to a
> lutenist I've seen in a recent video
> who is described as never having played
> renaissance lute. What gives?
> Why don't baroque lutenists today use
> what is an unquestionably obvious
> historical technique? I admit to
> not having paid much attention to
> this issue in the past.
> Sincerely puzzled,
> Ron Andrico
> [7]www.mignarda.com
> > Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 05:10:57
> -0800
> > To: [8]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu;
> [9]dwinh...@comcast.net
> > From: [10]chriswi...@yahoo.com
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest
> stroke
> >
> > I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated
> rest strokes in the bass,
> sometimes for fairly fast lines that I
> would take with p-i alternating
> (free) strokes. On the other hand, I've
> seen Robert Barto occasionally
> use rest strokes in the treble.
> >
> > There are an awful lot of paintings
> (especially, but not exclusively,
> baroque) in which the players are clearly
> using a rest stroke with the
> fingers a la classical guitar. In most of
> these the player is obviously
> tuning; in some, its not so clear. I know
> of no printed instructions,
> however.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list
> information at
> > [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email
> service. [1]Get it now. --
>
> References
>
> 1. [12]http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/
>
>
To get on or off this list see list information at
[13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:chriswi...@yahoo.com
2. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
3. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
4. mailto:chriswi...@yahoo.com
5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
6. mailto:dwinh...@comcast.net
7. http://www.mignarda.com/
8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
9. mailto:dwinh...@comcast.net
10. mailto:chriswi...@yahoo.com
11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
12. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/
13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
