Danny --- On Tue, 1/19/10, Daniel Shoskes <kidneykut...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Not sure about your "nearly all our > notable baroque luteniststs play > thumb under" comment Ron. Barto started > thumb in but now plays thumb > out, as do Richard Stone and Nigel North. > I have seen Liddell and > O'Dette play thumb under on baroque lute, > which at least helps justify > my own style to me. > Not really. I haven't seen any pros play really thumb out. Most approach the strings with the wrist quite flat and straight as if shaking hands. They simply bring the forearm further up on the body so that the thumb is in front of the fingers. This is very similar to what a modern folk-fingerstyle guitarist does. The paintings and descriptions are quite clear that something else was done. We get things like "hold the thumb out with all the force you can," "as if it were another limb," etc. Paintings also show that the wrist is never flat a la thumb-under, but held out like a modern classical player does. There are even a fair number of paintings in which the pinky is not planted at all(!). You're quite right that its tricky to get a "good" tone with this position. I've found that paying strict attention to the contact point and pushing the string into the soundboard consistently regardless of where the thumb is goes a long way to keep the tone from getting brittle or nasally. Chris > Danny > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 2:27 PM, > <[1]chriswi...@yahoo.com> > wrote: > > Ron, > Good points. I'm working > on exactly this point. > The main issue with true > thumb-out is getting a decent and - far > more importantly - _consistent_ > sound out of the treble strings. > There clearly was a marked aural > difference between the too > positions that the baroquenists > admired. How else to explain the > Stammbuch of Stobaeus when he > contrasts the "pure, sharp, bright" > tone of thumb-out versus the > "rotten and muffled" sound of old > thumb-under. I think most > modern baroque lutenists attempt to > re-create the thumb-under > sound. They therefore have an > anachronistic conception of tone. > I can't say that I agree with > the "rotten and muffled" part, but > for me, there is nothing saying > that a brighter sound can't be > expressive. In my > experiments, I've found that it is quite possible > to have a wide range of timbral, > tonal and dynamic shadings. The > lute just responds differently > with the fingers in this position. > Still a work in progress. > The secondary issue is that the > true baroque lute technique is > very, very close to modern > classical guitar technique. I think this > strikes too close to home for many > lutenists for whom thumb-under is > part of the (modern) "identity" of > what it means to be a "real" lute > player, as distinct from wannabe > classical guitarists who thrash > around on a pear-shaped instrument > at ren. fests, etc. > Chris > --- On Tue, 1/19/10, Ron Andrico > <[2]praelu...@hotmail.com> > wrote: > > From: Ron Andrico <[3]praelu...@hotmail.com> > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest > stroke > > > To: [4]chriswi...@yahoo.com, > [5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu, > [6]dwinh...@comcast.net > > Date: Tuesday, January 19, > 2010, 11:09 AM > > > Chris & All: > > The rest stroke for the > thumb seems a > > logical means to both produce a > > strong bass and teach > the thumb to keep > > track of diapasons, although > > there is no specific > referral to this > > technique by name in any written > > historical source I've > seen. The > > term 'rest stroke' seems to be a > > classical guitar > convention useful in > > > adapting to lute > technique. The > > > thing I find extremely > puzzling in the > > 'awful lot of paintings' you > > mention is that, for > late 16th and almost > > all 17th century examples, > > there is a nearly > uniform depiction of a > > thumb-out technique, which is > > also described clearly > in written > > sources. With one exception, > nearly > > all our notable baroque > lutenists of > > today use a thumb-under > > technique. This > even applies to a > > lutenist I've seen in a recent > video > > who is described as > never having played > > renaissance lute. What gives? > > Why don't baroque > lutenists today use > > what is an unquestionably obvious > > > historical > technique? I admit to > > > not having paid much attention to > > this issue in the > past. > > Sincerely puzzled, > > Ron Andrico > > [7]www.mignarda.com > > > Date: Tue, 19 Jan > 2010 05:10:57 > > -0800 > > > > To: [8]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; > > > [9]dwinh...@comcast.net > > > From: [10]chriswi...@yahoo.com > > > > Subject: [LUTE] > Re: Thumb rest > > stroke > > > > > > > I've seen Paul > O'Dette use repeated > > rest strokes in the bass, > > sometimes for fairly > fast lines that I > > would take with p-i alternating > > (free) strokes. On the > other hand, I've > > seen Robert Barto occasionally > > use rest strokes in the > treble. > > > > > > There are an awful > lot of paintings > > (especially, but not exclusively, > > baroque) in which the > players are clearly > > using a rest stroke with the > > fingers a la classical > guitar. In most of > > these the player is obviously > > tuning; in some, its > not so clear. I know > > of no printed instructions, > > however. > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off > this list see list > > information at > > > [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > > > Hotmail: Free, trusted > and rich email > > service. [1]Get it now. -- > > > > References > > > > 1. [12]http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/ > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list > information at > [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:chriswi...@yahoo.com > 2. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com > 3. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com > 4. mailto:chriswi...@yahoo.com > 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 6. mailto:dwinh...@comcast.net > 7. http://www.mignarda.com/ > 8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 9. mailto:dwinh...@comcast.net > 10. mailto:chriswi...@yahoo.com > 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 12. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/ > 13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
