Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[xor]

On Wednesday, March 01, 2017 12:06:59 AM Florent Daigniere wrote:
> On Tue, 2017-02-28 at 19:04 +0100, x...@freenetproject.org wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 09:03:07 AM Florent Daigniere wrote:
> > > If you want to be useful, compile a list of *all* the requirements;
> > > that's what we need.
> > 
> > - SSL for the website + downloads.
> 
> SSL from where to where? Which URLs do we want to keep? Right now the
> downloads come from github!

Well if we need a CDN we will likely have to redirect the https connections 
from us to different https connections to the CDN I suppose?
As long as non of the handovers involves a non-SSL connection I'm fine.

With regards to URLs: How about we only keep URLs to documentation the same?

> > - SSL must be compatible with the SSL stuff fred uses for downloading
> > plugins 
> > (and updates?). Same for update.sh / update.cmd / what we provide for
> > MacOS.
> 
> Clarify what you mean by "compatible"; The current certificate will
> expire soon... Even if I find a drop-in replacement it will eventually
> break.

It must at most require only a small amount of work to adapt our existing code 
to the new certs.
And uhm, it must be a simple enough job that we actually have someone willing 
and capable to do it; given that I suppose you don't want to be bothered with 
this?

> > - Dan's implementation of the new site design must actually work on
> > it.
> > - automatic language detection & redirect to the translation. Sounds
> > simple 
> > but IIRC GitHub has issues with it. AFAIK Dan has used a framework
> > which is 
> > suitable for this, so it's may only be a matter of choosing a hoster
> > which 
> > allows that framework. Re-doing the site in another framework would
> > take too 
> > long as our SSL cert expires soon.
> 
> I am not sure what you are alluding to; We can always do it with
> javascript.

I'm merely repeating what someone had once said on IRC - that hosting on 
GitHub wouldn't work with translations, or require manual language selection 
at least - don't remember the precise details. Also don't remember who said 
it, though I actually feel it was you :| 

> > - the devl and support mailing lists must keep working. The others are
> > dead.
> 
> Again; what does "keep working" mean? We are moving away from mailman,
> do we need them to have the same addresses?

I would say I don't care whether they have the same address - we can just send 
a final mail to all existing subscribers telling them where they should send 
mails to from now on.
BUT: Besides the mailing lists I'd consider it as crucial to keep the  
developer mail address forwards working - so if we already have mail forwards, 
it should be possible to keep devl having the same address by just forwarding 
it to the new location?

It would be very good if we could import the set of existing subscribers, 
otherwise we may lose many lurkers.

The new service should allow new users to sign up by mail or web interface 
without us having to do anything, we got enough maintenance tasks already. 
That may be an issue with Amazon WorkMail?
http://docs.aws.amazon.com/workmail/latest/userguide/create_distribution_list.html
I'm not sure whether that is the only mailing list feature they have, I've 
never seen their web interface so I can only google blindly.

> Do we need the moderation features?

We don't have enough traffic to require someone to cherry-pick individual 
mails to reduce traffic, so no.

It's enough if:
- non-subscribers cannot mail the list (to avoid spam)
- we can ban subscribers if they start to offend.

> > - bonus, not requirement: subdomains + htaccess redirects or HTML
> > redirects. 
> > Yes, HTML redirs would be ugly but can have the useful effect of
> > showing the 
> > visitor a text before the redirect happens, e.g. "Redirecting you to a
> > read-
> > only copy of our old Wiki. Our new writable Wiki is located at GitHub
> > here:".
> 
> I don't understand what you mean by subdomains.

If we want to keep old links working, we need to be able to keep 
"wiki.freenetproject.org" etc. working and put something there to redirect 
traffic.
 
> There's no way we can fit the above requirements with a single product;
> For the websites we are heading for:
> route53, KMS, ACM, cloudfront, S3 and maybe API-gateway+lambda

Thanks for looking all those up.
Is there anything of the above requirements which you think they cannot 
fulfill?

I suppose given they contain a special DNS service (route53) *and* the ability 
to run code (lambda) we can do redirects as we please to keep old URLs 
working, so the only remaining complex issue is perhaps the mail/mailing list 
stuff?

> For "email" the requirements aren't clear enough; probably
> SES + WorkMail

What needs clarification?

> But we need something else if we keep the mailing lists... which right
> now I am not convinced we should.

Could you be convinced if someone else offered to take over moderation and/or 
administration?

Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Florent Daigniere]

On Tue, 2017-02-28 at 19:04 +0100, x...@freenetproject.org wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 09:03:07 AM Florent Daigniere wrote:
> > > Mailing lists and mail must keep working.
> > 
> > If you want to be useful, compile a list of *all* the requirements;
> > that's what we need.
> 
> - SSL for the website + downloads.

SSL from where to where? Which URLs do we want to keep? Right now the
downloads come from github!

> - SSL must be compatible with the SSL stuff fred uses for downloading
> plugins 
> (and updates?). Same for update.sh / update.cmd / what we provide for
> MacOS.

Clarify what you mean by "compatible"; The current certificate will
expire soon... Even if I find a drop-in replacement it will eventually
break.

> - scales well to high traffic situations in case we get on the news.

That means using a CDN (and is related to the first requirement)

> - Dan's implementation of the new site design must actually work on
> it.
> - automatic language detection & redirect to the translation. Sounds
> simple 
> but IIRC GitHub has issues with it. AFAIK Dan has used a framework
> which is 
> suitable for this, so it's may only be a matter of choosing a hoster
> which 
> allows that framework. Re-doing the site in another framework would
> take too 
> long as our SSL cert expires soon.

I am not sure what you are alluding to; We can always do it with
javascript.

> - the devl and support mailing lists must keep working. The others are
> dead.

Again; what does "keep working" mean? We are moving away from mailman,
do we need them to have the same addresses? Do we need the moderation
features?

> - existing mail forwards must keep working.
> - bonus, not requirement: subdomains + htaccess redirects or HTML
> redirects. 
> Yes, HTML redirs would be ugly but can have the useful effect of
> showing the 
> visitor a text before the redirect happens, e.g. "Redirecting you to a
> read-
> only copy of our old Wiki. Our new writable Wiki is located at GitHub
> here:".
> 

I don't understand what you mean by subdomains.

> > Right now we need "doing", time for debates/arguments is over.
> 
> We had not discussed what to do with the mailing lists / mail
> forwarding yet, 
> have we? We shouldn't just silently shut off major services without 
> discussion.
> 
> Anyway, please just tell us what the Amazon product you want is called
> then people can say whether what it provides is OK with them.

duh? It's called AWS. Which specific product from that suite we use
depends on the requirements.

> Its name would probably be less words than cutting me down once more
> ;)
> 

There's no way we can fit the above requirements with a single product;
For the websites we are heading for:
route53, KMS, ACM, cloudfront, S3 and maybe API-gateway+lambda
For "email" the requirements aren't clear enough; probably
SES + WorkMail
But we need something else if we keep the mailing lists... which right
now I am not convinced we should.

Florent

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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[xor]

On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 09:03:07 AM Florent Daigniere wrote:
> > Mailing lists and mail must keep working.
> 
> If you want to be useful, compile a list of *all* the requirements;
> that's what we need.

- SSL for the website + downloads.
- SSL must be compatible with the SSL stuff fred uses for downloading plugins 
(and updates?). Same for update.sh / update.cmd / what we provide for MacOS.
- scales well to high traffic situations in case we get on the news.
- Dan's implementation of the new site design must actually work on it.
- automatic language detection & redirect to the translation. Sounds simple 
but IIRC GitHub has issues with it. AFAIK Dan has used a framework which is 
suitable for this, so it's may only be a matter of choosing a hoster which 
allows that framework. Re-doing the site in another framework would take too 
long as our SSL cert expires soon.
- the devl and support mailing lists must keep working. The others are dead.
- existing mail forwards must keep working.
- bonus, not requirement: subdomains + htaccess redirects or HTML redirects. 
Yes, HTML redirs would be ugly but can have the useful effect of showing the 
visitor a text before the redirect happens, e.g. "Redirecting you to a read-
only copy of our old Wiki. Our new writable Wiki is located at GitHub here:".

> Right now we need "doing", time for debates/arguments is over.

We had not discussed what to do with the mailing lists / mail forwarding yet, 
have we? We shouldn't just silently shut off major services without 
discussion.

Anyway, please just tell us what the Amazon product you want is called then 
people can say whether what it provides is OK with them.
Its name would probably be less words than cutting me down once more ;)

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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Florent Daigniere]

On Sun, 2017-02-26 at 15:46 +0100, x...@freenetproject.org wrote:
> On Saturday, February 25, 2017 11:16:07 AM Florent Daigniere wrote:
> > [snip.]
> > 
> > > > I'd really like us to use AWS for as much as possible re:
> > > > hosting.  It has a lot of benefits, one of which is powerful
> > > > multi-user
> > > > support.
> > > 
> > > Well I really don't care where we host as long as it provides what
> > > we
> > > need :)
> > > 
> > > I'd like to evaluate that for AWS, but as said to be able to do so
> > > please tell us which package we'd be using. Thanks!
> > 
> > That's not how it's going to work. I don't need you to make more
> > requirements up on the way (like preserving the wiki's links)...
> 
> Sorry, you misunderstood me:
> I don't see requiring link preservation as a requirement.
> I  merely realized that our *other* requirements, namely mailing lists
> and mail, will likely result in having to choose a hoster which will
> support link preservation as a side effect anyway.
> 
> > Explain and formalise the requirements 
> 
> Mailing lists and mail must keep working.
> 


If you want to be useful, compile a list of *all* the requirements;
that's what we need.

> > and let whoever does the sysadmin
> > (currently yours truely) find the right solution; then you can
> > contribute to the process and point out which of the requirements
> > are
> > not fulfilled by the solution picked.
> > Not the other way around.
> > Alternatively, takeover the sysadmin duties over too.
> 
> As you just requested, I would have just asked you as the sysadmin
> whether the 
> product you chose can provide that, but then I realized that whenever
> I ask 
> you for something you remark that you don't want others to impose work
> upon 
> you. Thus I offered to figure it out myself.
> Now that also seems to be not OK with you, you're asking me to take
> over 
> sysadmin duties - which I had also offered in this thread and you
> didn't say 
> anything about it.
> 
> Please leave *some* way for people to participate in this discussion
> in a 
> fruitful way - either tell us whether the Amazon product you want can
> provide 
> mailing lists and mail forwarding and perhaps htaccess files as a side
> effect; 
> or tell us what the product is so we can figure it out on our own.
> Denying both to answer questions and to give information so I can
> answer them 
> to myself won't help any of us, including you.


Heh; I have never asked you for help. It's great that you're proposing
to help but I have the right to decline your offer. Right now we need
"doing", time for debates/arguments is over.

Florent
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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[xor]

On Sunday, February 26, 2017 09:54:27 PM Ian Clarke wrote:
> Interesting, I used mutt for a while back in 1998 or 1999, them were the
> days. Google Inbox these days (which does have some annoying qualities,
> doesn't seem to do so well with formatting quoted replies).

Btw, I would REALLY appreciate if you could fix the quoting :)

Almost every mail of yours has broken quoting, and often your mails mix quoted 
text with your own text without showing *any* indicator that it is a quote.
It usually takes many minutes to figure out what is text of yours, and that 
cost happens for everyone who wants to read it...

Perhaps you actually might want to try a real mail client again? :)

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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[xor]

On Sunday, February 26, 2017 07:02:35 PM Ian Clarke wrote:
> Ok, I'm not making a specific point about any particular decision, I just
> don't want us be paralyzed by needing to accommodate every obscure edge-case
> in anything we do.

:) I also don't want us to be paralyzed by edge cases - which specifically is 
why I am advocating for email:

It is a *standard*, and it has had decades to become solid. So if we go with 
email again there will be few edge cases since the zoo of clients has had 
sufficiently long time to become compliant.

Using a web service instead would cause lots of edge cases because they're not 
standardized in any useful way.

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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Ian Clarke]

On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 3:51 PM, Arne Babenhauserheide arne_...@web.de  wrote:Ian
Clarke  writes:




> On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 9:06 AM, x...@freenetproject.org wrote:Our typical

> developer is using a highly sophisticated terminal mail client 

>

> which has received decades of development.

> Really? Have you conducted a survey? I can't remember the last time I saw

> anyone using a terminal mail client, it was probably 15 years ago.




I do — I use mu4e on Emacs, about half the time via commandline.

I know that this is not a survey, it is just one datapoint.


Interesting, I used mutt for a while back in 1998 or 1999, them were the days.
 Google Inbox these days (which does have some annoying qualities, doesn't seem
to do so well with formatting quoted replies).
Ian.
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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

Ian Clarke  writes:

> On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 9:06 AM, x...@freenetproject.org  wrote:Our typical
> developer is using a highly sophisticated terminal mail client 
>
> which has received decades of development.
> Really? Have you conducted a survey? I can't remember the last time I saw
> anyone using a terminal mail client, it was probably 15 years ago.

I do — I use mu4e on Emacs, about half the time via commandline.
I know that this is not a survey, it is just one datapoint.

I’m writing this mail in mu4e.

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein
ohne es zu merken


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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Ian Clarke]

Ok, I'm not making a specific point about any particular decision, I just
don't want us be paralyzed by needing to accommodate every obscure edge-case in
anything we do.  






On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 12:54 PM, x...@freenetproject.org  wrote:
On Sunday, February 26, 2017 06:39:00 PM Ian Clarke wrote:


On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 9:06 AM, x...@freenetproject.org wrote:



> Our typical developer is using a highly sophisticated terminal mail client



> which has received decades of development.







Really? Have you conducted a survey?



I can't remember the last time I saw



anyone using a terminal mail client, it was probably 15 years ago.





Look at the user agent of the mails of Arne you have replied to in this very 


thread. They're sent by emacs.

There in fact also is a survey - which shows mutt has a *GROWING* user amount:

https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=mutt




Our developer's liking terminals is also a general impression from our daily 


discussions on the IRC team chat over the past years.

Steve uses a terminal IRC client. Florent too as far as I remember.




Also we haven't had a Windows installer for years because from our dozens of 

contributors *nobody* was using Windows to the point of being able to maintain 


an installer.

Yes this is unrelated to mail, but it shows how far our folks are located on 


the "open source spectrum".




So please chose wisely with regards to shiny JavaScript cloud solutions :|




Disclaimer: I use a GUI mail client, this is not self-serving.



Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org
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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[xor]

On Sunday, February 26, 2017 06:39:00 PM Ian Clarke wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 9:06 AM, x...@freenetproject.org  wrote:
> > Our typical developer is using a highly sophisticated terminal mail client
> > which has received decades of development.
>
> Really?  Have you conducted a survey?
> I can't remember the last time I saw
> anyone using a terminal mail client, it was probably 15 years ago.

Look at the user agent of the mails of Arne you have replied to in this very 
thread. They're sent by emacs.
There in fact also is a survey - which shows mutt has a *GROWING* user amount:
https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=mutt

Our developer's liking terminals is also a general impression from our daily 
discussions on the IRC team chat over the past years.
Steve uses a terminal IRC client. Florent too as far as I remember.

Also we haven't had a Windows installer for years because from our dozens of 
contributors *nobody* was using Windows to the point of being able to maintain 
an installer.
Yes this is unrelated to mail, but it shows how far our folks are located on 
the "open source spectrum".

So please chose wisely with regards to shiny JavaScript cloud solutions :|

Disclaimer: I use a GUI mail client, this is not self-serving.

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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Ian Clarke]

On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 9:06 AM, x...@freenetproject.org  wrote:Our typical
developer is using a highly sophisticated terminal mail client 

which has received decades of development.
Really?  Have you conducted a survey?  I can't remember the last time I saw
anyone using a terminal mail client, it was probably 15 years ago.
Ian.
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org
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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[xor]

On Saturday, February 25, 2017 10:27:11 AM Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
> x...@freenetproject.org writes:
> > That is unfortunately something our privacy-focused users will certainly
> > not accept :|
> 
> We could also move more of our discussions to FMS. It’s code has
> nowadays been checked by at least two established users, and most
> interactive development already happens over IRC.

The unwritten social contract of the purpose of our mailing lists IMHO is:
Low frequency discussion of subjects which are *very* important and thus must 
reach even the participants who are too busy to read the high volume daily 
traffic of IRC.

This cannot be provided by FMS:
It requires running and maintaining Freenet and FMS itself, with a very high 
uptime of "run it every day for at least some hours".

That is too much hassle, we cannot expect it from e.g. computer scientists who 
participate in the mailing lists for noticing scientific discussions about the 
network. Those people don't actually always want to *run* Freenet, they're in 
for the science - which happens to be among the most valuable contributions, 
so we must not neglect their desires :|

Also, the "*very* important subjects" aspect means that the lists must work 
even if Freenet is broken due to e.g. an attack - another reason against FMS.

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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[xor]

On Saturday, February 25, 2017 07:50:05 PM Ian Clarke wrote:
> While I'm more familiar with Slack, https://gitter.im/ is an alternative we
> should consider that's used by a few open source projects.
> Slack may have more of a barrier to entry for users, for example the Kotlin
> open source project appears to require an external invite mechanism before
> users can access Slack - http://slack.kotlinlang.org/
> However, Gitter seems to require a Github account, which might be a problem
> for non-developers.

Do those services actually support mailing lists, as in only accessing them 
using a real mail client?
Does this actually work well or is it some cheap buggy gateway? E.g. the mails 
I get from you are always having very broken quoting, is that perhaps because 
you use such a cloud service? :|

Our typical developer is using a highly sophisticated terminal mail client 
which has received decades of development.
Having to use a cheap JavaScript web interface would frustrate those people a 
lot and cripple their productivity.

Also the vendor lock-in would be very problematic:
I currently have 3649 unprocessed mails in my Freenet inbox which I consider 
as TODOs. Some of them date back half a decade, and yes, I want to process all 
of them.
How would I be supposed to resolve them if the typical cloud chat service like 
Gitter / Slack goes bankrupt in much less than this time and takes down our 
data with it? :|

Sorry to annoy you with opposition yet once more. It's just that there are 
people who actually consider the fact that email exists since 1970 as a *good* 
thing - that means that it does actually work :)

> As for complaints about proprietary services, nothing in the goals of our
> project mandates that we only ever use open source tools.

Nothing in the goals of Apple Computer obliges them to not sell 5 inch thick 
black laptops like Lenovo does - yet they keep selling thin white ones.
- We must not forget the interests of a typical Freenet "customer", and free 
software is very likely among that. We'll lose some of them if we choose to 
become too proprietary.


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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[xor]

On Saturday, February 25, 2017 11:16:07 AM Florent Daigniere wrote:
> [snip.]
> 
> > > I'd really like us to use AWS for as much as possible re:
> > > hosting.  It has a lot of benefits, one of which is powerful multi-user
> > > support.
> > 
> > Well I really don't care where we host as long as it provides what we
> > need :)
> > 
> > I'd like to evaluate that for AWS, but as said to be able to do so
> > please tell us which package we'd be using. Thanks!
> 
> That's not how it's going to work. I don't need you to make more
> requirements up on the way (like preserving the wiki's links)...

Sorry, you misunderstood me:
I don't see requiring link preservation as a requirement.
I  merely realized that our *other* requirements, namely mailing lists and 
mail, will likely result in having to choose a hoster which will support link 
preservation as a side effect anyway.

> Explain and formalise the requirements 

Mailing lists and mail must keep working.

> and let whoever does the sysadmin
> (currently yours truely) find the right solution; then you can
> contribute to the process and point out which of the requirements are
> not fulfilled by the solution picked.
> Not the other way around.
> Alternatively, takeover the sysadmin duties over too.

As you just requested, I would have just asked you as the sysadmin whether the 
product you chose can provide that, but then I realized that whenever I ask 
you for something you remark that you don't want others to impose work upon 
you. Thus I offered to figure it out myself.
Now that also seems to be not OK with you, you're asking me to take over 
sysadmin duties - which I had also offered in this thread and you didn't say 
anything about it.

Please leave *some* way for people to participate in this discussion in a 
fruitful way - either tell us whether the Amazon product you want can provide 
mailing lists and mail forwarding and perhaps htaccess files as a side effect; 
or tell us what the product is so we can figure it out on our own.
Denying both to answer questions and to give information so I can answer them 
to myself won't help any of us, including you.


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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

Florent Daigniere  writes:

> @devl is the smallest list we still operate.
>
> freenetproject:/var/backups/mailman# wc -l *members|sort -rg
> 4441 total
> 2581 announce.members
>  452 support.members
>  354 devl.members
>  309 tech.members
>  293 chat.members
>  248 darknet-tools.members
> 64 freemail.members
> 53 cvs.members
> 20 wot.members
> 18 pyfreenet.members
> 16 thaw.members
> 12 rubyfreenet.members
> 11 iansblog.members
> 10 cppfcplib.members
> 0 revver-dev.members
> 0 mailman.members
>
> We are looking at replacing mailman, not just re-hosting @devl here.

So the actual cost is re-connecting all those subscribers? Which means,
we need a solution which works for all of them?

Best wishes,
Arne


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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Ian Clarke]

On Sat, Feb 25, 2017 4:19 AM, Florent Daigniere nextg...@freenetproject.org 
wrote:

Or we could just migrate to slack (like Ian suggested ages ago). It's
not like there has been any meaningful, productive, development-related

discussion on this mailing list in the last few years.


While I'm more familiar with Slack, https://gitter.im/ is an alternative we
should consider that's used by a few open source projects.
Slack may have more of a barrier to entry for users, for example the Kotlin open
source project appears to require an external invite mechanism before users can
access Slack - http://slack.kotlinlang.org/
However, Gitter seems to require a Github account, which might be a problem for
non-developers.
As for complaints about proprietary services, nothing in the goals of our
project mandates that we only ever use open source tools.
Ian.
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org
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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

Florent Daigniere  writes:
> On Sat, 2017-02-25 at 13:18 +0100, Florent Daigniere wrote:
>> Are you seriously suggesting that "having a working fred, working FMS"
>> is an acceptable requirement for accessing what will be our future
>> support mailing list?
>
> Oh, and I forgot the obvious: it can do emails too:
> https://get.slack.help/hc/en-us/articles/206819278-Send-emails-to-Slack
>
> If "open-source" is a requirement, it boils down to finding a reliable
> hoster for one of the many clones...
>
> https://about.mattermost.com/pricing/

If it’s free software and we can access it as email, I don’t mind for devl.

If it’s free software and we can access it as IRC, I don’t mind for
#freenet (though I don’t see that as urgent, since that is not bound to
our infrastructure).

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
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ohne es zu merken


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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Florent Daigniere]

On Sat, 2017-02-25 at 17:44 +0100, Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
> Florent Daigniere  writes:
> 
> > On Sat, 2017-02-25 at 13:02 +0100, Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
> > You are in lalaland if you think that we can do what currently do
> > with
> > our mailing lists over Freenet. Almost two decades in the making,
> > we've
> > failed at building an ecosystem of tools people can use.
> 
> I’m using FMS, as do many other freenet users. People can use this.
> 
> > Are you seriously suggesting that "having a working fred, working
> > FMS"
> > is an acceptable requirement for accessing what will be our future
> > support mailing list?
> 
> I’m talking about our devl-list.
> 
> 

@devl is the smallest list we still operate.

freenetproject:/var/backups/mailman# wc -l *members|sort -rg
 4441 total
 2581 announce.members
  452 support.members
  354 devl.members
  309 tech.members
  293 chat.members
  248 darknet-tools.members
   64 freemail.members
   53 cvs.members
   20 wot.members
   18 pyfreenet.members
   16 thaw.members
   12 rubyfreenet.members
   11 iansblog.members
   10 cppfcplib.members
0 revver-dev.members
0 mailman.members

We are looking at replacing mailman, not just re-hosting @devl here.

Florent

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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

Florent Daigniere  writes:

> On Sat, 2017-02-25 at 13:02 +0100, Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
> You are in lalaland if you think that we can do what currently do with
> our mailing lists over Freenet. Almost two decades in the making, we've
> failed at building an ecosystem of tools people can use.

I’m using FMS, as do many other freenet users. People can use this.

> Are you seriously suggesting that "having a working fred, working FMS"
> is an acceptable requirement for accessing what will be our future
> support mailing list?

I’m talking about our devl-list.

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
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heißt politisch sein
ohne es zu merken


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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Freenet]

+1 to move the support mailing list to mattersmost, with instructions on
our website how to connect via IRC, Email, XMPP, and anonymously (Tor or
Freenet)

+1 to move devl mailing list to FMS.

Florent Daigniere:
> On Sat, 2017-02-25 at 13:18 +0100, Florent Daigniere wrote:
>> On Sat, 2017-02-25 at 13:02 +0100, Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
>>> Florent Daigniere  writes:
>>>
> We could also move more of our discussions to FMS. It’s code has
> nowadays been checked by at least two established users, and
> most
> interactive development already happens over IRC.

 Or we could just migrate to slack (like Ian suggested ages ago).
 It's
 not like there has been any meaningful, productive, development-
 related
 discussion on this mailing list in the last few years.
>>>
>>> How is moving our actively used, freenode-provided IRC to
>>> centralized,
>>
>>
>> Freenode is centralized too; Slack has IRC and XMPP gateways
>> https://get.slack.help/hc/en-us/articles/201727913-Connect-to-Slack-ov
>> er-IRC-and-XMPP
>> if the goal is to increase accessibility, Slack is better than IRC.
>>
>>> proprietary Slack comparable to moving our little used, self-
>>> maintained mailing list
>>
>>
>> We can't afford to run it anymore, that's the point...
>> Slack can be archived (and indexed by search engines) just like our
>> mailing lists
>> http://slackarchive.io/
>>
>>>  to decentralized, pseudonymous, free licensed,
>>> freenet-hosted FMS, which is where our active users already are?
>>>
>>
>>
>> You are in lalaland if you think that we can do what currently do with
>> our mailing lists over Freenet. Almost two decades in the making,
>> we've
>> failed at building an ecosystem of tools people can use.
>>
>> Are you seriously suggesting that "having a working fred, working FMS"
>> is an acceptable requirement for accessing what will be our future
>> support mailing list?
>>
> 
> 
> Oh, and I forgot the obvious: it can do emails too:
> https://get.slack.help/hc/en-us/articles/206819278-Send-emails-to-Slack
> 
> If "open-source" is a requirement, it boils down to finding a reliable
> hoster for one of the many clones...
> 
> https://about.mattermost.com/pricing/
> 
> Florent
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Florent Daigniere]

On Sat, 2017-02-25 at 13:18 +0100, Florent Daigniere wrote:
> On Sat, 2017-02-25 at 13:02 +0100, Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
> > Florent Daigniere  writes:
> > 
> > > > We could also move more of our discussions to FMS. It’s code has
> > > > nowadays been checked by at least two established users, and
> > > > most
> > > > interactive development already happens over IRC.
> > > 
> > > Or we could just migrate to slack (like Ian suggested ages ago).
> > > It's
> > > not like there has been any meaningful, productive, development-
> > > related
> > > discussion on this mailing list in the last few years.
> > 
> > How is moving our actively used, freenode-provided IRC to
> > centralized,
> 
> 
> Freenode is centralized too; Slack has IRC and XMPP gateways
> https://get.slack.help/hc/en-us/articles/201727913-Connect-to-Slack-ov
> er-IRC-and-XMPP
> if the goal is to increase accessibility, Slack is better than IRC.
> 
> > proprietary Slack comparable to moving our little used, self-
> > maintained mailing list
> 
> 
> We can't afford to run it anymore, that's the point...
> Slack can be archived (and indexed by search engines) just like our
> mailing lists
> http://slackarchive.io/
> 
> >  to decentralized, pseudonymous, free licensed,
> > freenet-hosted FMS, which is where our active users already are?
> > 
> 
> 
> You are in lalaland if you think that we can do what currently do with
> our mailing lists over Freenet. Almost two decades in the making,
> we've
> failed at building an ecosystem of tools people can use.
> 
> Are you seriously suggesting that "having a working fred, working FMS"
> is an acceptable requirement for accessing what will be our future
> support mailing list?
> 


Oh, and I forgot the obvious: it can do emails too:
https://get.slack.help/hc/en-us/articles/206819278-Send-emails-to-Slack

If "open-source" is a requirement, it boils down to finding a reliable
hoster for one of the many clones...

https://about.mattermost.com/pricing/

Florent

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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Florent Daigniere]

On Sat, 2017-02-25 at 13:02 +0100, Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
> Florent Daigniere  writes:
> 
> > > We could also move more of our discussions to FMS. It’s code has
> > > nowadays been checked by at least two established users, and most
> > > interactive development already happens over IRC.
> > Or we could just migrate to slack (like Ian suggested ages ago).
> > It's
> > not like there has been any meaningful, productive, development-
> > related
> > discussion on this mailing list in the last few years.
> 
> How is moving our actively used, freenode-provided IRC to centralized,


Freenode is centralized too; Slack has IRC and XMPP gateways
https://get.slack.help/hc/en-us/articles/201727913-Connect-to-Slack-over-IRC-and-XMPP
if the goal is to increase accessibility, Slack is better than IRC.

> proprietary Slack comparable to moving our little used, self-
> maintained mailing list


We can't afford to run it anymore, that's the point...
Slack can be archived (and indexed by search engines) just like our
mailing lists
http://slackarchive.io/

>  to decentralized, pseudonymous, free licensed,
> freenet-hosted FMS, which is where our active users already are?
> 


You are in lalaland if you think that we can do what currently do with
our mailing lists over Freenet. Almost two decades in the making, we've
failed at building an ecosystem of tools people can use.

Are you seriously suggesting that "having a working fred, working FMS"
is an acceptable requirement for accessing what will be our future
support mailing list?

Florent

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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

Florent Daigniere  writes:

>> We could also move more of our discussions to FMS. It’s code has
>> nowadays been checked by at least two established users, and most
>> interactive development already happens over IRC.

> Or we could just migrate to slack (like Ian suggested ages ago). It's
> not like there has been any meaningful, productive, development-related
> discussion on this mailing list in the last few years.

How is moving our actively used, freenode-provided IRC to centralized,
proprietary Slack comparable to moving our little used, self-maintained
mailing list to decentralized, pseudonymous, free licensed,
freenet-hosted FMS, which is where our active users already are?

Best wishes,
Arne


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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Florent Daigniere]

On Sat, 2017-02-25 at 10:27 +0100, Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
> x...@freenetproject.org writes:
> > That is unfortunately something our privacy-focused users will
> > certainly not 
> > accept :|
> 
> We could also move more of our discussions to FMS. It’s code has
> nowadays been checked by at least two established users, and most
> interactive development already happens over IRC.
> 
> Most of the things we discuss in the ML could easily be discussed in
> FMS
> instead.
> 
> The mailing lists are important to allow external people to contact us
> and to provide announcements.
> 
> The main thing missing is reliable automatic archival. We’d have to
> rely
> on something like the FMS archive — and that means we’d need several
> people running that. Also we could not just host such an archive
> publicly (or we’d need to filter it to only include known Freenet
> developers).
> 
> Best wishes,
> Arne
> 

Or we could just migrate to slack (like Ian suggested ages ago). It's
not like there has been any meaningful, productive, development-related
discussion on this mailing list in the last few years.

Florent

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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Florent Daigniere]

[snip.]

> > I'd really like us to use AWS for as much as possible re:
> > hosting.  It has a
I'd really like us to use AWS for as much as possible re:
hosting.  It has a
> > lot of benefits, one of which is powerful multi-user support.
> 
> Well I really don't care where we host as long as it provides what we
> need :)
> 
> I'd like to evaluate that for AWS, but as said to be able to do so
> please tell us which package we'd be using. Thanks!
> 


That's not how it's going to work. I don't need you to make more
requirements up on the way (like preserving the wiki's links)...

Explain and formalise the requirements and let whoever does the sysadmin
(currently yours truely) find the right solution; then you can
contribute to the process and point out which of the requirements are
not fulfilled by the solution picked. Not the other way around.

Alternatively, takeover the sysadmin duties over too.

Florent

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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

x...@freenetproject.org writes:
> That is unfortunately something our privacy-focused users will certainly not 
> accept :|

We could also move more of our discussions to FMS. It’s code has
nowadays been checked by at least two established users, and most
interactive development already happens over IRC.

Most of the things we discuss in the ML could easily be discussed in FMS
instead.

The mailing lists are important to allow external people to contact us
and to provide announcements.

The main thing missing is reliable automatic archival. We’d have to rely
on something like the FMS archive — and that means we’d need several
people running that. Also we could not just host such an archive
publicly (or we’d need to filter it to only include known Freenet
developers).

Best wishes,
Arne


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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[xor]

On Thursday, February 23, 2017 06:59:17 PM Ian Clarke wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 11:19 AM, x...@freenetproject.org  wrote:
> > What about a stupid, plain old htaccess file?
>
> Don't know if that will work with our current plan to host on AWS, but
> hopefully there is some equivalent way to remap URLs that we can use.

As limited as my understanding of AWS is, there are two modes of operation:

- the "classic" one where we register our domain elsewhere and do a DNS 
redirect to their web server. We could then point the DNS of only 
wiki.freenetproject.org to the to our proposed other hoster which supports 
htaccess.
And with regards to mail, the MX DNS records can be used to point it to 
something else than Amazon as well.

- nowadays, it seems you can also register the whole domain at AWS. Then 
whether DNS/MX redirects / htaccess / mail work depends on whether Amazon 
specifically allows it. I'm having difficulty in googling that as I don't know 
what the specific product we would be using at AWS is called, there are 
different ones. Can you clarify which one it'd be please?

> > But we need to find a hoster for the mailing lists and mail forwards
> > anyway, and they usually offer that in a bundle with a domain, webspace,
> > email, etc.
>
> Google Groups?

Their help says that in order to join a group, you need a Google account.

I tried creating a Google account just weeks ago and it is NOT possible 
anymore without validating it by providing a phone number.

That is unfortunately something our privacy-focused users will certainly not 
accept :|

> I'd really like us to use AWS for as much as possible re: hosting.  It has a
> lot of benefits, one of which is powerful multi-user support.

Well I really don't care where we host as long as it provides what we need :)

I'd like to evaluate that for AWS, but as said to be able to do so please tell 
us which package we'd be using. Thanks!


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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Ian Clarke]

On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 11:19 AM, x...@freenetproject.org  wrote:What about a
stupid, plain old htaccess file?




Don't know if that will work with our current plan to host on AWS, but hopefully
there is some equivalent way to remap URLs that we can use.
But we need to find a hoster for the mailing lists and mail forwards anyway,
and they usually offer that in a bundle with a domain, webspace, email, etc.




Google Groups?




So we could get rid of the maintenance of running our own server, keep the 

mail stuff, and the URIs via htaccess.




I agree with the goal, not sure if that specific approach will work but
something along those lines.




At my current hoster I pay 2.94 dollars / month for a domain, 5 GB webspace, 5
GB mailspace AND mailing list & mail forward support.

- that's cheap and sufficient, and I didn't check whether they're the cheapest 

for like 5 years, there may be even cheaper companies nowadays.




I'd really like us to use AWS for as much as possible re: hosting.  It has a lot
of benefits, one of which is powerful multi-user support.




Ian.
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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[xor]

On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 11:11:04 PM Ian Clarke wrote:
> I don't want to break links, but I also don't want that to become a blocker
> for updating to the new website.
> Hopefully there can be some way we can re-map URLs and then those that care
> about breaking links can migrate the important stuff over quickly.
> Ian.

What about a stupid, plain old htaccess file?

Yes, that may require keeping not only the domain, but also some webspace.

But we need to find a hoster for the mailing lists and mail forwards anyway, 
and they usually offer that in a bundle with a domain, webspace, email, etc.
So we could get rid of the maintenance of running our own server, keep the 
mail stuff, and the URIs via htaccess.

At my current hoster I pay 2.94 dollars / month for a domain, 5 GB webspace, 5 
GB mailspace AND mailing list & mail forward support.
- that's cheap and sufficient, and I didn't check whether they're the cheapest 
for like 5 years, there may be even cheaper companies nowadays.


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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Ian Clarke]

I don't want to break links, but I also don't want that to become a blocker
for updating to the new website.
Hopefully there can be some way we can re-map URLs and then those that care
about breaking links can migrate the important stuff over quickly.
Ian.  





On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 3:07 PM, Arne Babenhauserheide arne_...@web.de  wrote:



Florent Daigniere  writes:




> On Tue, 2017-02-21 at 08:54 +0100, Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:

>> Florent just warned again, that the clock on osprey (all our

>> non-standard hosting) is ticking. If we don’t act, this means that all

>> links to the wiki stop working.

>

> This has never been expressed as a requirement until now. I personally

> don't have a problem with the links being broken.

>

> https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/2016-August/039236.html

> 7 months into the plan, it's insane to start changing the requirements.




I always said that we need to preserve links. Not only for the wiki. And

not only starting 2016. That I get ignored is not my fault

here. Breaking existing links and by that breaking the guides from the

times when Freenet was a focus of anti-surveillance culture is dumb.




This is not personal for me, but it is a topic I care about.




It is dumb when companies break links, and it is dumber if we do it.




Best wishes,

Arne

-- 

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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Arne Babenhauserheide]

Florent Daigniere  writes:

> On Tue, 2017-02-21 at 08:54 +0100, Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
>> Florent just warned again, that the clock on osprey (all our
>> non-standard hosting) is ticking. If we don’t act, this means that all
>> links to the wiki stop working.
>
> This has never been expressed as a requirement until now. I personally
> don't have a problem with the links being broken.
>
> https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/2016-August/039236.html
> 7 months into the plan, it's insane to start changing the requirements.

I always said that we need to preserve links. Not only for the wiki. And
not only starting 2016. That I get ignored is not my fault
here. Breaking existing links and by that breaking the guides from the
times when Freenet was a focus of anti-surveillance culture is dumb.

This is not personal for me, but it is a topic I care about.

It is dumb when companies break links, and it is dumber if we do it.

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
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heißt politisch sein
ohne es zu merken


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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[xor]

On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 09:36:59 AM Florent Daigniere wrote:
> On Tue, 2017-02-21 at 14:56 +0100, x...@freenetproject.org wrote:
> > I've read the IRC discussion, and I don't see any reason why our
> > server should 
> > go down except the fact that it looks like Florent isn't in the mood
> > anymore 
> > to maintain it and thus threatens to pull the plug on it when the new
> > site 
> > goes live.
> 
> This has nothing to do with me. Your boss (our project leader) has said
> that this was going to happen. He's asked me to set a date... and me
> being stupid, I left it wide-open...
> https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/2016-August/039236.html
> 
> If anything, it should have happened 6 months ago.

It seems like we misunderstood:
I thought that you just want to shut off the whole server without giving us 
time to migrate all the other services
- but the link you cited merely talks about shutting off the Wiki.

I don't care enough about the Wiki to annoy you with trying to veto your 
decisions :)

I can only say that it would be nice to have an overview of what is migrated 
and what not to ensure we don't forget anything, as described at the end of my 
mail - I might want to help with migrating what's left to migrate, but I have 
no idea how to figure that out.
If you don't want to provide a way for that, I won't get in your way though, I 
just cannot contribute then.

> > There is at least one other person willing to maintain/host it, he
> > should just 
> > ask who wants to deal with it instead of treating it like his personal
> > kingdom 
> > which must go down with him.
> 
> Should I start whining too when you make it personal?

It's of course OK if you tell me that I am getting too personal, sorry.


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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[xor]

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 08:15:36 PM x...@freenetproject.org wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 07:00:48 PM Ian Clarke wrote:
> > It's ok, the project can pay for it if everyone is in agreement, and if
> > someone is willing to handle the migration.
> 
> Thanks! :)
> 
> Steve and I will handle it.
> 
> I'll contact you about setting up an account / payment at the company once I
> have their reply about the user count issue.

Good news everyone:
They will host and migrate us for free!

Ian I've sent you a PM about signup details.

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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Florent Daigniere]

On Tue, 2017-02-21 at 14:56 +0100, x...@freenetproject.org wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 08:54:20 AM Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Florent just warned again, that the clock on osprey (all our
> > non-standard hosting) is ticking. If we don’t act, this means that
> all
> > links to the wiki stop working.
> 
> I've read the IRC discussion, and I don't see any reason why our
> server should 
> go down except the fact that it looks like Florent isn't in the mood
> anymore 
> to maintain it and thus threatens to pull the plug on it when the new
> site 
> goes live.


This has nothing to do with me. Your boss (our project leader) has said
that this was going to happen. He's asked me to set a date... and me
being stupid, I left it wide-open...
https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/2016-August/039236.html

If anything, it should have happened 6 months ago.


> There is at least one other person willing to maintain/host it, he
> should just 
> ask who wants to deal with it instead of treating it like his personal
> kingdom 
> which must go down with him.


Should I start whining too when you make it personal?

Florent

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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Florent Daigniere]

On Tue, 2017-02-21 at 08:54 +0100, Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Florent just warned again, that the clock on osprey (all our
> non-standard hosting) is ticking. If we don’t act, this means that all
> links to the wiki stop working.
> 

This has never been expressed as a requirement until now. I personally
don't have a problem with the links being broken.

https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/2016-August/039236.html
7 months into the plan, it's insane to start changing the requirements.

Florent

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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Steve Dougherty]

Apologies for the top reply; ProtonMail's clients need some work and inline 
replying appears effectively impossible currently, at least on mobile.

Okay, I misinterpreted the primacy of your citing the Google trend. If Mantis 
further decays we may find ourselves reevaluating this decision. I do like that 
GitHub has an API, and agree that something free would be preferable if it met 
our needs, but in the case of GitHub losing field separation in the migration 
wouldn't be great, nor would breaking links.

Ah okay, I misunderstood your point about people switching to GitHub accounts 
to continue participating to mean that users would be expected to migrate their 
own issues.






 Original Message 
On Feb 21, 2017, 11:38 AM, Ian Clarke wrote:



On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 9:51 AM, Steve Dougherty  st...@asksteved.com wrote:



Ian, the thing I find frustrating with your approach is that we'd regularly be 
moving to something new based on what's literally trending.


That's a caricature of what I've said. My main point is that we should not be 
administering our own server when there are good free 3rd-party hosted 
alternatives for everything we need to do.

My secondary point is that Mantis is a dying piece of software, and it has been 
dying for years, but if you are all really that attached to it then we should 
find a reliable and cost-effective 3rd-party hosted solution, which the project 
can pay for.


Unlike GitHub's wiki, I do not see a (semi-)automated way to export GitHub 
issues into another system

Github Issues has a simple and comprehensive API which makes it just as easy to 
export data from it as from anything else, moreso given that it's likely to be 
much better supported than Mantis going forward.


, and I really don't want to put our issues in something we can't later move 
them from. (I do see some extraction scripts using the API but they seem to 
output just HTML; I do suppose that's solvable but would mean additional work.)

You don't even know what future issue tracker we'd want to export to, so it's 
hardly surprising that a script for it doesn't yet exist. I would estimate just 
a few hours of dev work to export from Github Issues to any other reasonable 
issue tracker.


I do agree there's a big backlog of issues that are probably not going to be 
addressed anytime soon, but that's hardly unique for a long-running project. 
Manual migration is not a viable way forward for the bug tracker.

Nobody is advocating that.

Ian.
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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[xor]

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 07:00:48 PM Ian Clarke wrote:
> It's ok, the project can pay for it if everyone is in agreement, and if
> someone is willing to handle the migration.

Thanks! :) 

Steve and I will handle it.

I'll contact you about setting up an account / payment at the company once I 
have their reply about the user count issue.

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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Steve Dougherty]

Okay, xor and I will handle it.






 Original Message 
On Feb 21, 2017, 2:00 PM, Ian Clarke wrote:

It's ok, the project can pay for it if everyone is in agreement, and if
someone is willing to handle the migration.





On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 12:30 PM, x...@freenetproject.org wrote:
On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 01:24:50 PM Steve Dougherty wrote:

> We're at the point where I would repeat myself. For reasons already stated,

> I'd like to continue using Mantis. I am willing to pay the hosting costs.

> There are more than directly financial costs in migrating to a new

> platform.




Great, I'd suggest you then pay only half, and I pay the other half :)




As an only exception I would propose that FPI pays the $200 one-time migration

fee as that is something completely independent of which bugtracker we use.

And $200 being a wage for one person day is appropriate - it will probably be

a week of work to migrate any bugtracker for us being untrained with that, so

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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Ian Clarke]

It's ok, the project can pay for it if everyone is in agreement, and if
someone is willing to handle the migration.  






On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 12:30 PM, x...@freenetproject.org  wrote:
On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 01:24:50 PM Steve Dougherty wrote:


We're at the point where I would repeat myself. For reasons already stated,



I'd like to continue using Mantis. I am willing to pay the hosting costs.



There are more than directly financial costs in migrating to a new



platform.





Great, I'd suggest you then pay only half, and I pay the other half :)




As an only exception I would propose that FPI pays the $200 one-time migration 


fee as that is something completely independent of which bugtracker we use.

And $200 being a wage for one person day is appropriate - it will probably be 

a week of work to migrate any bugtracker for us being untrained with that, so 


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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[xor]

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 01:24:50 PM Steve Dougherty wrote:
> We're at the point where I would repeat myself. For reasons already stated,
> I'd like to continue using Mantis. I am willing to pay the hosting costs.
> There are more than directly financial costs in migrating to a new
> platform.

Great, I'd suggest you then pay only half, and I pay the other half :)

As an only exception I would propose that FPI pays the $200 one-time migration 
fee as that is something completely independent of which bugtracker we use.
And $200 being a wage for one person day is appropriate - it will probably be 
a week of work to migrate any bugtracker for us being untrained with that, so 
a day is cheap.

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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Steve Dougherty]

We're at the point where I would repeat myself. For reasons already stated, I'd 
like to continue using Mantis. I am willing to pay the hosting costs. There are 
more than directly financial costs in migrating to a new platform.






 Original Message 
On Feb 21, 2017, 1:05 PM, Ian Clarke wrote:

$23/month is expensive for what this is (considering that Github is free for
open source projects and does a lot more) :-/
Ian.





On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 11:58 AM, x...@freenetproject.org wrote:
On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 06:02:25 PM x...@freenetproject.org wrote:

> > What company can we use for Mantis hosting?

>

> I will allocate a day for googling all of them ASAP, I'll try to do it

> within a week.




Actually, the decision which company to ask first can be solved pretty

naturally - Mantis has a recommendation linked from the frontpage of their

website, if they recommend it the company ought to work somehow:

https://www.mantisbt.org/hosting.php




They have a $22.92/month plan which would likely suit us if there wasn't the

very low user limit of 15 - we have 1200.

However I've calculated our daily average users to be 0.3!




I've sent them a mail which explains that we're a non-profit and thus have

high user churn with low activity, and asked them nicely to make an exception

& give us an offer.




I'll let you know their answer.



Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org
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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[xor]

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 06:05:57 PM Ian Clarke wrote:
> $23/month is expensive for what this is (considering that Github is free for
> open source projects and does a lot more) :-/

If two boxes of beer a month is the only problem I'm almost willing to suck it 
up and just pay for it myself.

The amount of hours it would cost us to map the Mantis data model to GitHub 
will probably pay for like 10 years of that anyway; and I suppose I will be 
the one who ends up having to do it voluntarily given that I'm a very noisy 
bugtracker admin; so in the end I would pay even more through my hours...

And then we still indirectly pay GitHub by them owning our data because 
they're still proprietary; and they probably will end up having to monetize 
some day anyway.

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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Ian Clarke]

$23/month is expensive for what this is (considering that Github is free for
open source projects and does a lot more) :-/
Ian.  





On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 11:58 AM, x...@freenetproject.org  wrote:
On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 06:02:25 PM x...@freenetproject.org wrote:

> > What company can we use for Mantis hosting?

> 

> I will allocate a day for googling all of them ASAP, I'll try to do it

> within a week.




Actually, the decision which company to ask first can be solved pretty 

naturally - Mantis has a recommendation linked from the frontpage of their 

website, if they recommend it the company ought to work somehow:

https://www.mantisbt.org/hosting.php




They have a $22.92/month plan which would likely suit us if there wasn't the 

very low user limit of 15 - we have 1200.

However I've calculated our daily average users to be 0.3!




I've sent them a mail which explains that we're a non-profit and thus have 

high user churn with low activity, and asked them nicely to make an exception 

& give us an offer.




I'll let you know their answer.



Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org
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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[xor]

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 06:02:25 PM x...@freenetproject.org wrote:
> > What company can we use for Mantis hosting?
> 
> I will allocate a day for googling all of them ASAP, I'll try to do it
> within a week.

Actually, the decision which company to ask first can be solved pretty 
naturally - Mantis has a recommendation linked from the frontpage of their 
website, if they recommend it the company ought to work somehow:
https://www.mantisbt.org/hosting.php

They have a $22.92/month plan which would likely suit us if there wasn't the 
very low user limit of 15 - we have 1200.
However I've calculated our daily average users to be 0.3!

I've sent them a mail which explains that we're a non-profit and thus have 
high user churn with low activity, and asked them nicely to make an exception 
& give us an offer.

I'll let you know their answer.

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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[xor]

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 04:40:38 PM Ian Clarke wrote:
> Your ability to take something that could be said in 3 sentences and turn it
> into a multi-page melodramatic essay never ceases to amaze me.

Sorry, but it's impossible to break down the complexity of our problems into 
the length of mails you prefer :(
We have 350 000 lines of code, 64 subprojects, and 3300 open bugtracker issues 
- we are a complex project.

I always end up spending hours on the mails for you to keep them as short as 
you want them, today it were 3.
But at some point something is just maximally compressed :(

And the worst about this - for yourself! - is that because you then don't read 
the mails you have to thus say the same things again in different threads even 
though I debunked them like 5 times already - just like the statement I 
intentionally moved to the beginning of my last mail because I have answered 
it many times already.
So effectively you're causing more mails to read for yourself because you 
don't read things when they're said the first, second, and third time! :|

> What company can we use for Mantis hosting?

I will allocate a day for googling all of them ASAP, I'll try to do it within 
a week.

Anyway, thanks for allowing us to consider a Mantis hoster! :)

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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Ian Clarke]

Your ability to take something that could be said in 3 sentences and turn it
into a multi-page melodramatic essay never ceases to amaze me.  


What company can we use for Mantis hosting?
Ian.
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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Ian Clarke]

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 9:51 AM, Steve Dougherty st...@asksteved.com  wrote:
Ian, the thing I find frustrating with your approach is that we'd regularly be
moving to something new based on what's literally trending.


That's a caricature of what I've said.  My main point is that we should not be
administering our own server when there are good free 3rd-party hosted
alternatives for everything we need to do.
My secondary point is that Mantis is a dying piece of software, and it has been
dying for years, but if you are all really that attached to it then we should
find a reliable and cost-effective 3rd-party hosted solution, which the project
can pay for.
Unlike GitHub's wiki, I do not see a (semi-)automated way to export GitHub
issues into another system
Github Issues has a simple and comprehensive API which makes it just as easy to
export data from it as from anything else, moreso given that it's likely to be
much better supported than Mantis going forward.
, and I really don't want to put our issues in something we can't later move
them from. (I do see some extraction scripts using the API but they seem to
output just HTML; I do suppose that's solvable but would mean additional work.)

You don't even know what future issue tracker we'd want to export to, so it's
hardly surprising that a script for it doesn't yet exist.  I would estimate just
a few hours of dev work to export from Github Issues to any other reasonable
issue tracker.
I do agree there's a big backlog of issues that are probably not going to be
addressed anytime soon, but that's hardly unique for a long-running project.
Manual migration is not a viable way forward for the bug tracker.

Nobody is advocating that.
Ian.
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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[xor]

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 02:43:26 PM Ian Clarke wrote:
> I'm also curious as to the value of much of the data in Mantis, I mean, are
> most of the issues in there still relevant?  Are they ever likely to be
> fixed or will they just gather dust indefinitely? 

I've moved this quote to the top since I've answered this statement of yours 
like 5 times already and you keep acting as if that never happened, which is 
frankly very thoroughly frustrating.

Thus let please me answer it in a manner which is much more explicitly worded 
than what I have previously said, and to compensate for that also includes 
more numbers:

The data in the bugtracker is so important that if the project really decides 
to delete it as has been suggested sometimes, then I will:

- run a copy of it elsewhere (which may be poor because it'll be from
  archive.org or whatever).

- assume the project has been compromised by an intelligence agency because
  deleting the bugtracker is equal to deleting a random half of the codebase
  as documentation and code belong together - and if a project starts to
  delete its own codebase of 11 years of work, then it is compromised for
  sure.

- fork the project because it is compromised, and also because the code must  
  be in sync with the bugtracker.

- in the name of the fork do a press release which states that the main
  Freenet project has likely been compromised by an intelligence agency and
  people shouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

Given that we're down to a handful of active contributors, a fork is the VERY 
VERY VERY VERY LEAST THING which I want and which we as the project should 
want
- but it needs to be said because you keep repeating the very dangerous 
statement of claiming that a MAJOR part of our codebase is not valuable.
I'm also not the only one who has been thinking that a fork may become 
necessary if the current approach of management continues.

Here's numbers about the quality of the tracker:

- 3571 of the 6899 issues are *closed* already, that is 51%.
  Also, the main issue balance for the past 365 days is negative, i.e. more
  were closed than opened.

  So we DO fix the stuff.

- As a result of your complaints about the tracker's freshness, I have
  recently spent like a dozen hours on searching for outdated issues and  
  closing them, search the IRC logs for "https://bugs.freenetproject.org;.

  I had already been doing this every once in a while for years, I've closed
  1010 issues in total.

  It now usually takes me like 20 minutes to even FIND an issue which is  
  obsolete. So really most of the stuff *is* valid nowadays.

- 56% of the issues have been filed by:
  * toad: 2211 issues
  * me: 1129 issues
  * nextgens: 513 issues.
  Thus:
  * You could realize that if I dealt with over thousand issues you could
finally start putting some trust into what I say about the tracker ;)
  * it is mostly run by developers and thus high quality.

> What is the process by which we prioritize the issues in there and fix them?

There is a "severity" and "priority" field for every issue.
Severity is how much an issue breaks something, priority is how soon it should 
be fixed. You can sort on both in combination.

GitHub doesn't have those fields.

> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 8:15 AM, x...@freenetproject.org wrote:
> > I've looked at GitHub issues for bugtracking, they are not an option:
> > 
> > The most simple issue with it would be that it would require us to ask
> > every pre-existing bug reporter to allow us acccess to their GitHub
> > account so we can link their issues against their account.  We have 1158
> > user accounts, so this isn't going to happen.
>
> We wouldn't have to do that, we could add a note/tag to each issue with the
> original reporter and those that are still active in the project can change
> the ownership of their issues to themselves.

We cannot put the email addresses of 1158 people on the public web, they will 
kill us.

> Also, your argument could be used to prevent us from ever moving away from
> Mantis as our bugtracker.

Yes. And?
Are we going to move away from Java by throwing away all of our 16 years of 
work?
Some things about a project cannot be changed because they are too deeply 
rooted in the system.

And in the case of bugtrackers, the thing to move to hasn't even be invented 
yet [1]:
Distributed bugtracking on top of Git. A distributed system would resolve the 
hosting question for ever.
And it absolutely IS the logical step for bugtracker evoluation to end at: 
Bugs are part of the codebase, they should be stored inside it.

I would be very happy to switch to such a system!
But I would strongly recommend we stay with Mantis until it exists so we only 
have to migrate once and for ever.
Migrating to a proprietary system now will only make this much more difficult 
in the future.

> Looking at Google Trends, Mantis has been
> steadily declining in popularity for at least the last 5 years.

We're developing software, 

Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Steve Dougherty]

Ian, the thing I find frustrating with your approach is that we'd regularly be 
moving to something new based on what's literally trending. I'd be much happier 
with paying for Mantis hosting than spending effort, breaking links, forcing 
users to mess with accounts if they still want to work on issues, and losing 
functionality moving to GitHub's issue tracking. (Issue relationship fields are 
an example of something we use and would lose.) We're in agreement that server 
administration is annoying, and I'd much rather continue using Mantis in a way 
that doesn't put server administration on us. Unlike GitHub's wiki, I do not 
see a (semi-)automated way to export GitHub issues into another system, and I 
really don't want to put our issues in something we can't later move them from. 
(I do see some extraction scripts using the API but they seem to output just 
HTML; I do suppose that's solvable but would mean additional work.)


I'd be fine with moving to GitHub's wiki, provided we also have something in 
place to ensure old links continue working. because Cool URIs Don't Change: 
https://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html We can download and modify it as a 
Git repo, Markdown is better than MediaWiki's markup, and I found a tool for 
semi-automatic conversion: 
https://github.com/philipashlock/mediawiki-to-markdown

I do agree there's a big backlog of issues that are probably not going to be 
addressed anytime soon, but that's hardly unique for a long-running project. 
Manual migration is not a viable way forward for the bug tracker.


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki
Local Time: February 21, 2017 9:43 AM
UTC Time: February 21, 2017 2:43 PM
From: i...@freenetproject.org
To: x...@freenetproject.org
Discussion of development issues <devl@freenetproject.org>

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 8:15 AM, x...@freenetproject.org wrote:
On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 02:01:02 PM Ian Clarke wrote:

> If necessary we can continue to pay for our own server, however I think it

> would be better for everyone if we could migrate over to solutions that

> don't require that we manage our own servers, such as Github Issues for

> bugtracking.




I've looked at GitHub issues for bugtracking, they are not an option:




The most simple issue with it would be that it would require us to ask every

pre-existing bug reporter to allow us acccess to their GitHub account so we

can link their issues against their account. We have 1158 user accounts, so
this isn't going to happen.




We wouldn't have to do that, we could add a note/tag to each issue with the
original reporter and those that are still active in the project can change the
ownership of their issues to themselves.
Also, your argument could be used to prevent us from ever moving away from
Mantis as our bugtracker. Looking at Google Trends, Mantis has been steadily
declining in popularity for at least the last 5 years. Our dependence on it
will become more and more of a headache with time, even if we find a free hosted
solution for it.


Also consider that we're a paranoia focused project, so even our most active
contributors might not grant access.




As mentioned, there is no requirement for anyone to grant anything for us to
migrate our issues to Github or another solution.


As a paranoia-focussed project, the fact that we are maintaining our own server
without the resources to maintain it properly (including security) should be a
much greater concern than it appears to be.


It also is very unlikely that GitHub can provide a 1:1 mapping of the

datamodel of Mantis, so we would lose lots of critical information.




Such as?


Given that us trying to migrate a Wiki resulted in 4 Wikis, we should probably

quit trying to pretend we have the resources to migrate things to different

software and keep using the one we're familiar with.




We should quit trying to pretend we have the resources to manage our own server,
and acknowledge that sooner or later (preferably sooner) we'll be forced to bite
the bullet and switch to a modern hosted bugtracker. It's not a question of
"if", but "when" and "how".


I cannot name a single critical feature which Mantis is lacking for our
purposes anyway, and I am probably the one who currently uses our Mantis the

most.




The most critical feature it's lacking is that someone else administers the
server it runs on. The fact that it has been declining steadily in popularity
for at least 5 years is another serious concern.
The security impact can be lessened by frequent backup (I can offer that as

well) and hosting our actual website + binaries elsewhere, which I am fine

with.




Frequent backups won't help us if the server is compromised.
I have been running my own server with a dozen of services for like a decade,
I'm not new to that. I even wrote a 90 page documentation of its settings :D




Even if you can completely r

Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Ian Clarke]

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 8:15 AM, x...@freenetproject.org  wrote:
On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 02:01:02 PM Ian Clarke wrote:

> If necessary we can continue to pay for our own server, however I think it

> would be better for everyone if we could migrate over to solutions that

> don't require that we manage our own servers, such as Github Issues for

> bugtracking.




I've looked at GitHub issues for bugtracking, they are not an option:




The most simple issue with it would be that it would require us to ask every 

pre-existing bug reporter to allow us acccess to their GitHub account so we 

can link their issues against their account.  We have 1158 user accounts, so
this isn't going to happen.




We wouldn't have to do that, we could add a note/tag to each issue with the
original reporter and those that are still active in the project can change the
ownership of their issues to themselves.
Also, your argument could be used to prevent us from ever moving away from
Mantis as our bugtracker.  Looking at Google Trends, Mantis has been steadily
declining in popularity for at least the last 5 years.  Our dependence on it
will become more and more of a headache with time, even if we find a free hosted
solution for it.


Also consider that we're a paranoia focused project, so even our most active
contributors might not grant access.




As mentioned, there is no requirement for anyone to grant anything for us to
migrate our issues to Github or another solution.


As a paranoia-focussed project, the fact that we are maintaining our own server
without the resources to maintain it properly (including security) should be a
much greater concern than it appears to be.


It also is very unlikely that GitHub can provide a 1:1 mapping of the 

datamodel of Mantis, so we would lose lots of critical information.




Such as?


Given that us trying to migrate a Wiki resulted in 4 Wikis, we should probably 

quit trying to pretend we have the resources to migrate things to different 

software and keep using the one we're familiar with.




We should quit trying to pretend we have the resources to manage our own server,
and acknowledge that sooner or later (preferably sooner) we'll be forced to bite
the bullet and switch to a modern hosted bugtracker.  It's not a question of
"if", but "when" and "how".


I cannot name a single critical feature which Mantis is lacking for our
purposes anyway, and I am probably the one who currently uses our Mantis the 

most.




The most critical feature it's lacking is that someone else administers the
server it runs on.  The fact that it has been declining steadily in popularity
for at least 5 years is another serious concern.
The security impact can be lessened by frequent backup (I can offer that as 

well) and hosting our actual website + binaries elsewhere, which I am fine 

with.




Frequent backups won't help us if the server is compromised.
I have been running my own server with a dozen of services for like a decade,
I'm not new to that. I even wrote a 90 page documentation of its settings :D




Even if you can completely replace what Florent has been doing, being solely
dependent on one person is concerning, particularly when it is entirely
unnecessary for us to manage our own server when everything we do can be handled
by widely-used, hosted, and free third-party services.


> and nor should we need to since there are free and widely used hosted
> services that do almost everything we need to do. Ian.




If you can tell me one which can provide free Mantis hosting or at least a 

full mapping of the Mantis data model I will have a look at it.




That's not the requirement.  Why don't you tell me what specifically Github
Issues cannot do that is important to us.


- Just because something is also called "bugtracker" doesn't mean that 

migrating to it wouldn't cause deleting 80% of the information we have stored 

in Mantis.




Mantis is legacy software that has been steadily declining in popularity for
years.  github Issues is powerful, hosted by a free service we're already using,
has a flexible API, and doesn't require that we manage our own server (which is
expensive, risky, and time consuming).
I doubt we would really need to lose anything important if we migrated to a
solution other than Mantis, but IMHO continuing to maintain our own server
unnecessarily isn't an option any more.
I'm also curious as to the value of much of the data in Mantis, I mean, are most
of the issues in there still relevant?  Are they ever likely to be fixed or will
they just gather dust indefinitely?  What is the process by which we prioritize
the issues in there and fix them?
Ian.
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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[xor]

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 02:01:02 PM Ian Clarke wrote:
> If necessary we can continue to pay for our own server, however I think it
> would be better for everyone if we could migrate over to solutions that
> don't require that we manage our own servers, such as Github Issues for
> bugtracking.

I've looked at GitHub issues for bugtracking, they are not an option:

The most simple issue with it would be that it would require us to ask every 
pre-existing bug reporter to allow us acccess to their GitHub account so we 
can link their issues against their account.
We have 1158 user accounts, so this isn't going to happen.
Also consider that we're a paranoia focused project, so even our most active 
contributors might not grant access.
It also is very unlikely that GitHub can provide a 1:1 mapping of the 
datamodel of Mantis, so we would lose lots of critical information.

There ARE hosting services which specialize on managed hosting of Mantis 
itself, that would be the perfect option IMHO:
Given that us trying to migrate a Wiki resulted in 4 Wikis, we should probably 
quit trying to pretend we have the resources to migrate things to different 
software and keep using the one we're familiar with.

I cannot name a single critical feature which Mantis is lacking for our 
purposes anyway, and I am probably the one who currently uses our Mantis the 
most.

> These servers are a time drain and a security vulnerability.

The security impact can be lessened by frequent backup (I can offer that as 
well) and hosting our actual website + binaries elsewhere, which I am fine 
with.

> If Florent is no-longer willing to do it, we simply don't have anyone with
> the expertise and time to manage a server

Uh, I just offered to maintain it!?

I have been running my own server with a dozen of services for like a decade, 
I'm not new to that. I even wrote a 90 page documentation of its settings :D

> and nor should we need to since there are free and widely used hosted
> services that do almost everything we need to do. Ian.

If you can tell me one which can provide free Mantis hosting or at least a 
full mapping of the Mantis data model I will have a look at it.
- Just because something is also called "bugtracker" doesn't mean that 
migrating to it wouldn't cause deleting 80% of the information we have stored 
in Mantis.

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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[Ian Clarke]

If necessary we can continue to pay for our own server, however I think it
would be better for everyone if we could migrate over to solutions that don't
require that we manage our own servers, such as Github Issues for bugtracking.
 These servers are a time drain and a security vulnerability.
If Florent is no-longer willing to do it, we simply don't have anyone with the
expertise and time to manage a server, and nor should we need to since there are
free and widely used hosted services that do almost everything we need to do.
Ian.  





On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 7:56 AM, x...@freenetproject.org  wrote:
On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 08:54:20 AM Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:

> Hi,

> 

> Florent just warned again, that the clock on osprey (all our

> non-standard hosting) is ticking. If we don’t act, this means that all

> links to the wiki stop working.




I've read the IRC discussion, and I don't see any reason why our server should 

go down except the fact that it looks like Florent isn't in the mood anymore 

to maintain it and thus threatens to pull the plug on it when the new site 

goes live.

There is at least one other person willing to maintain/host it, he should just 

ask who wants to deal with it instead of treating it like his personal kingdom 

which must go down with him.




With regards to the issue of paying it:

I'm even at the point where I am so scared of the potentially happening 

nuclear act of destroying our codebase's maintainability by deleting the 

bugtracker that I would actually consider paying for the a server myself if 

Ian really doesn't want FPI to do so (albeit please be aware that I've 

severely damaged my finances by volunteering for over a year, which was worth 

thousands of dollars, and continuing to do so, so I'd be happy if I don't have 

to, or if at least someone else paid a part).

Hell, the project HAS $25k which we cannot even manage to spend, we could 

probably pay a server for decades...

So money isn't an issue as well.




So anyway, it's completely acceptable for him to not want to volunteer on 

certain things anymore, but he must not take down our infrastructure just 

because he isn't in the mood for dealing with it.

The website isn't the only important thing on it.




I'm willing to have a look at how to maintain the thing if someone gives me 

access to the shell / web interface of the hoster.

Arne, would you be willing to also participate in maintenance?




> To avoid that, I can provide hosting of a static copy of the wiki with

> links at the top of each article to the new github based wiki. I already

> talked about this with Florent, so I’m now taking this here for wider

> discussion.




While this is a kind offer, it will lead us into a trap which we already fell 

into once:

When we migrated from $old_wiki_software to MediaWiki, we put the old one in 

read-only mode.

As a result, nobody knows what has been migrated and what hasn't because 

people cannot delete things right after they migrated them. Thus as migration 

is very difficult now, the old wiki is STILL is running and has been for 

almost a decade:

https://old-wiki.freenetproject.org




Further, we are also running a second MediaWiki instance as the French wiki

- so we now have 4 wikis!




Thus, I would say the proper way to do migration now is:

- Keep hosting the full software of the old Wikis so they can be writeable.

- Ask people to *delete* things they migrated.

- Consider aborting the migration to GitHub given that it has been running for 

months and it seems like nobody wants to finish it. 3 Wikis were enough 

already, we shouldn't start a new one if we cannot even finish the migration 

of the old new ones.




-- 

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https://freenetproject.org___

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Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki

[xor]

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 08:54:20 AM Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Florent just warned again, that the clock on osprey (all our
> non-standard hosting) is ticking. If we don’t act, this means that all
> links to the wiki stop working.

I've read the IRC discussion, and I don't see any reason why our server should 
go down except the fact that it looks like Florent isn't in the mood anymore 
to maintain it and thus threatens to pull the plug on it when the new site 
goes live.
There is at least one other person willing to maintain/host it, he should just 
ask who wants to deal with it instead of treating it like his personal kingdom 
which must go down with him.

With regards to the issue of paying it:
I'm even at the point where I am so scared of the potentially happening 
nuclear act of destroying our codebase's maintainability by deleting the 
bugtracker that I would actually consider paying for the a server myself if 
Ian really doesn't want FPI to do so (albeit please be aware that I've 
severely damaged my finances by volunteering for over a year, which was worth 
thousands of dollars, and continuing to do so, so I'd be happy if I don't have 
to, or if at least someone else paid a part).
Hell, the project HAS $25k which we cannot even manage to spend, we could 
probably pay a server for decades...
So money isn't an issue as well.

So anyway, it's completely acceptable for him to not want to volunteer on 
certain things anymore, but he must not take down our infrastructure just 
because he isn't in the mood for dealing with it.
The website isn't the only important thing on it.

I'm willing to have a look at how to maintain the thing if someone gives me 
access to the shell / web interface of the hoster.
Arne, would you be willing to also participate in maintenance?

> To avoid that, I can provide hosting of a static copy of the wiki with
> links at the top of each article to the new github based wiki. I already
> talked about this with Florent, so I’m now taking this here for wider
> discussion.

While this is a kind offer, it will lead us into a trap which we already fell 
into once:
When we migrated from $old_wiki_software to MediaWiki, we put the old one in 
read-only mode.
As a result, nobody knows what has been migrated and what hasn't because 
people cannot delete things right after they migrated them. Thus as migration 
is very difficult now, the old wiki is STILL is running and has been for 
almost a decade:
https://old-wiki.freenetproject.org

Further, we are also running a second MediaWiki instance as the French wiki
- so we now have 4 wikis!

Thus, I would say the proper way to do migration now is:
- Keep hosting the full software of the old Wikis so they can be writeable.
- Ask people to *delete* things they migrated.
- Consider aborting the migration to GitHub given that it has been running for 
months and it seems like nobody wants to finish it. 3 Wikis were enough 
already, we shouldn't start a new one if we cannot even finish the migration 
of the old new ones.

-- 
Maintainer of the Web of Trust and Freetalk subprojects of Freenet
https://freenetproject.org

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