Re: [FRIAM] Downtown Subscription?

[Frank Wimberly]

Much better than I thought.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, May 24, 2024, 6:30 PM CS  wrote:

> Orangutans,   proboscis   monkeys, sun bears, crocs, wild cats, lots of
> birds, elephants
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 25, 2024, at 7:36 AM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>
> 
> What else is there in Borneo?  Snakes?
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Fri, May 24, 2024, 5:29 PM CS  wrote:
>
>> I’m in Borneo. DS is a little far but there’s a cafe here at the eco
>> lodge.
>>
>> Ed
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On May 24, 2024, at 11:30 PM, Stephen Guerin 
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Thanks, Frank! I'll see you at DS
>>
>> 
>> CEO Founder, Simtable.com
>> stephen.gue...@simtable.com
>>
>> Harvard Visualization Research and Teaching Lab
>> stephengue...@fas.harvard.edu
>>
>> mobile: (505)577-5828
>>
>> On Fri, May 24, 2024, 9:15 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>>
>>> I am in the St John's coffee shop.  This building seems to be
>>> abandoned.  Neither the coffee service nor the  dining room are open.  If
>>> people want beverages or snacks we should go somewhere else.
>>>
>>> I'll head to Downtown Subscription.
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail=g>
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail=g>
>>>
>>> 505 670-9918
>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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>>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Downtown Subscription?

[Frank Wimberly]

What else is there in Borneo?  Snakes?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, May 24, 2024, 5:29 PM CS  wrote:

> I’m in Borneo. DS is a little far but there’s a cafe here at the eco lodge.
>
> Ed
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 24, 2024, at 11:30 PM, Stephen Guerin 
> wrote:
>
> 
> Thanks, Frank! I'll see you at DS
>
> 
> CEO Founder, Simtable.com
> stephen.gue...@simtable.com
>
> Harvard Visualization Research and Teaching Lab
> stephengue...@fas.harvard.edu
>
> mobile: (505)577-5828
>
> On Fri, May 24, 2024, 9:15 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>
>> I am in the St John's coffee shop.  This building seems to be abandoned.
>> Neither the coffee service nor the  dining room are open.  If people want
>> beverages or snacks we should go somewhere else.
>>
>> I'll head to Downtown Subscription.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail=g>
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail=g>
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
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[FRIAM] Downtown Subscription?

[Frank Wimberly]

I am in the St John's coffee shop.  This building seems to be abandoned.
Neither the coffee service nor the  dining room are open.  If people want
beverages or snacks we should go somewhere else.

I'll head to Downtown Subscription.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [FRIAM] The Rise of the Maya Civilization

[Frank Wimberly]

In tenth grade I wrote a term paper with the title The Language, Arithmetic
and Astronomy of the Ancient Maya.  I doubt that it was a deep analysis
given that it was ten typewritten pages.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, May 14, 2024, 2:45 PM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> Takeshi Inomata from the University of Arizona does interesting work on
> the rise of the Maya civilization:
>
> Monumental architecture at Aguada Fenix and the rise of Maya civilization,
> Nature 582 (2020) 530-533
>
> https://pasolibre.grecu.mx/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/41586_2020_2343_opt.pdf
>
> -J.
>
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Re: [FRIAM] George on Rossby Waves and Frontogenesis

[Frank Wimberly]

George who?  I'm sorry, I must have missed something.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Apr 30, 2024, 11:28 AM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> *Dear Phellow Phriamers,*
>
>
> *What I love about George is that he speaks what others have in the backs
> of heir minds but seem reluctant to say.  So I have been reading in weather
> books and articles for weeks, trying to work out the chicken/egg relation
> between global-scale and synoptic-scale processes.  None of those sources
> has put the relation so plainly as does George below.  Of course he may be
> absurdly, flagrantly, ridiculously WRONG, but at least he has put it out
> there.  George seems to be good at discovering subtexts.  Think what he
> might do for psycho-analysis.*
>
> *Rossby waves, of course, are not only E-W waves along the polar front,
> they are also up/down waves along the boundary between the Troposphere and
> the Stratosphere, the Tropopause, so that in a Rossby trough, the
> Tropopause is much closer to the ground than in a Rossby ridge.   *
>
>
> *George also believes that Rossby waves often stumble over mountain ranges
> and continental boundaries.  When they stumble, they often break, sending
> Tropospheric air into the Stratosphere, and bringing Stratospheric air into
> the Troposphere, perhaps even as far down as the surface.   You know that
> rush of odd-smelling air you get at the onset of a cold front?  That may be
> stratospheric air.  *
>
>
>1. *Anyway: FWIW, here is George on Rossby Wavess and Frontogenesis.  * *I
>hope to join vFRIAM on Thursday around 11 MDT, in case there are other
>weather nerds on the list who would like to talk about this. *
>
>
>
> *Nick*
>
> *What is the relation between Rossby waves and frontogenesis*
>
> *Rossby waves and frontogenesis are closely related atmospheric phenomena,
> with Rossby waves playing a significant role in the generation and
> maintenance of fronts through the process of frontogenesis. Here's how
> they're connected:*
>
>1.
>
>*Dynamic Instability: Rossby waves are large-scale meanders in the jet
>stream that develop due to the interaction between the Earth's rotation and
>horizontal temperature gradients in the atmosphere. These waves are
>associated with dynamic instability in the atmosphere, leading to the
>amplification and propagation of disturbances along the jet stream.*
>2.
>
>*Formation of Temperature Contrasts: Rossby waves often lead to the
>development of regions with strong horizontal temperature gradients, known
>as baroclinic zones, along their troughs and ridges. These temperature
>contrasts are essential for frontogenesis, as they provide the necessary
>conditions for the formation and intensification of fronts.*
>3.
>
>*Enhanced Vertical Motion: Along the troughs of Rossby waves, there is
>typically enhanced upward motion of air, while along the ridges, there is
>enhanced downward motion. This vertical motion is associated with the
>convergence and divergence of air masses, respectively, which can
>contribute to the formation of fronts through the process of 
> frontogenesis.*
>4.
>
>*Interaction with Baroclinic Zones: Rossby waves interact with
>existing baroclinic zones in the atmosphere, which are regions of strong
>horizontal temperature gradients. These interactions can lead to the
>amplification or deformation of existing fronts and the generation of new
>fronts through frontogenesis.*
>5.
>
>*Development of Cyclogenesis: Rossby waves can also contribute to the
>development of cyclones, particularly in regions where there are strong
>temperature gradients associated with fronts. Cyclogenesis often occurs
>along frontal boundaries, where the convergence of air masses and enhanced
>vertical motion associated with Rossby waves create favorable conditions
>for low-pressure systems to develop.*
>
> *Overall, Rossby waves influence the development and maintenance of fronts
> through the generation of temperature contrasts, enhanced vertical motion,
> and interactions with existing baroclinic zones. Frontogenesis, in turn,
> contributes to the intensification and evolution of cyclones and other
> weather systems associated with the mid-latitude atmosphere.*
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Re: [FRIAM] A hundred words for swindle

[Frank Wimberly]

I suppose it's a bot.  An alleged young woman contacted me and asked me to
promise not to enter into text conversations with any other women.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 6:01 PM Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> Talking with John Zingale at Friam about conniving chatbots, I
> remembered this essay from 2009, https://elf.org/etc/swindle.html, which
> starts from real estate speculators in early US history and gets to the
> deplorable state of the internet.
>
> -- rec --
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Meeting Location

[Frank Wimberly]

Everything is open but it's the way into the building is different.  Walk
clockwise around all the cyclone fencing.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Mar 29, 2024, 8:21 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> Hmm.  The dining room down the hall is usually open and sells coffee etc.
> When I get there at 9:00 I'll send an email if there's a problem.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Fri, Mar 29, 2024, 7:35 AM Don Lemons  wrote:
>
>> Well, I was there at about 7:15 pm last night.  At that time the coffee
>> shop was open but the snack bar was closed.
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 6:56 AM Frank Wimberly 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I reached the on-site security officer at St John's a minute ago.  He
>>> says the coffee shop was open last night.  I will assume we can meet there.
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>
>>> 505 670-9918
>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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Re: [FRIAM] Meeting Location

[Frank Wimberly]

Hmm.  The dining room down the hall is usually open and sells coffee etc.
When I get there at 9:00 I'll send an email if there's a problem.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Mar 29, 2024, 7:35 AM Don Lemons  wrote:

> Well, I was there at about 7:15 pm last night.  At that time the coffee
> shop was open but the snack bar was closed.
>
> On Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 6:56 AM Frank Wimberly 
> wrote:
>
>> I reached the on-site security officer at St John's a minute ago.  He
>> says the coffee shop was open last night.  I will assume we can meet there.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
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[FRIAM] Meeting Location

[Frank Wimberly]

I reached the on-site security officer at St John's a minute ago.  He says
the coffee shop was open last night.  I will assume we can meet there.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity

[Frank Wimberly]

Back in the 70s my father, who was a nuclear engineer, said that if nuclear
energy weren't pursued aggressively there would be energy riots by 2050.


---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 7:42 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

>
> https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/microsoft-hires-erin-henderson-to-head-nuclear-development-acceleration-for-data-centers/
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
> Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2024 6:34 PM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity
>
> Published a paper couple of years back — IT is not Sustainable. One point
> was power consumption: known server-farms at that time used more energy per
> year than the UK. Less than 10% came from renewable sources.
>
> Not included were all the “secret” farms in Russia, China, etc., or
> centers like the NSA facility west of Salt Lake City.
>
> Davew
>
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2024, at 9:08 AM, glen wrote:
> > As we frivolously replace meatspace conversation with obsequious
> > chatbots, the world burns.
> >
> > The industry more damaging to the environment than airlines
> > https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/05/30/silicon-valley-data-gi
> > ants-net-zero-sustainability-risk/
> >
> > https://www.asce.org/publications-and-news/civil-engineering-source/ci
> > vil-engineering-magazine/issues/magazine-issue/article/2024/03/enginee
> > rs-often-need-a-lot-of-water-to-keep-data-centers-cool
> >
> > --
> > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
> >
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>
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[FRIAM] Check this out – Frank Wimberly wearing cowboy gear - Image Creator from Microsoft Designer

[Frank Wimberly]

Generative AI Fail

Frank Wimberly wearing cowboy gear - Image Creator from Microsoft Designer
https://www.bing.com/images/create/frank-wimberly-wearing-cowboy-gear/1-6605a819dcb347688e82f0733270bae3?FORM=GENCRE
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Re: [FRIAM] the inequities of uniquity

[Frank Wimberly]

t;> training items that contribute to fine-tuning loss.
>> >>
>> >> It seems reasonable to worry that ubiquitous GPT systems reduce social
>> entropy by encouraging copying instead of new thinking, but it could also
>> have the reverse effect:  If I am immediately aware that an idea is not
>> novel, I may avoid attractors that agents that wrongly believe they are
>> "independent" will gravitate toward.
>> >>
>> >> -Original Message-
>> >> From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
>> >> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2024 7:49 AM
>> >> To: friam@redfish.com
>> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the inequities of uniquity
>> >>
>> >> A friend of mine constantly reminds me that language is dynamic, not
>> fixed in stone from a billion years ago. So, if you find others
>> consistently using a term in a way that you think is wrong, then *you* are
>> wrong in what you think. The older I get, the more difficult it gets.
>> >>
>> >> But specifically, the technical sense of "unique" is vanishingly rare
>> ... so rare as to be merely an ideal, unverifiable, nowhere, non-existent.
>> So if the "unique" is imaginary, unreal, and doesn't exist, why not co-opt
>> it for a more useful, banal purpose? Nothing is actually unique. So we'll
>> use the token "unique" to mean (relatively) rare.
>> >>
>> >> And "unusual" is even worse. Both tokens require one to describe the
>> context, domain, or universe within which the discussion is happening. If
>> you don't define your context, then the "definitions" you provide for the
>> components of that context are not even wrong; they're nonsense. "Unusual"
>> implies a usual. And a usual implies a perspective ... a mechanism of
>> action for your sampling technique. So "unusual" presents even more of a
>> linguistic *burden* than "unique".
>> >>
>> >> On 3/20/24 13:14, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>> >>> What's wrong with "unusual"?  It avoids the problem.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 1:55 PM Steve Smith > sasm...@swcp.com>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>   I'm hung up on the usage of qualified  "uniqueness"  as well,
>> but in perhaps the opposite sense.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>   I agree with the premise that "unique" in it's purest,
>> simplest form does seem to be inherently singular.  On the other hand, this
>> mal(icious) propensity of qualifying uniqueness (uniqueish?) is so common,
>> that I have to believe there is a concept there which people who use those
>> terms are reaching for.  They are not wrong to reach for it, just annoying
>> in the label they choose?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>   I had a round with GPT4 trying to discuss this, not because I
>> think LLMs are the authority on *anything* but rather because the
>> discussions I have with them can help me brainstorm my way around ideas
>> with the LLM nominally representing "what a lot of people say" (if not
>> think).   Careful prompting seems to be able to help narrow down  *all
>> people* (in the training data) to different/interesting subsets of *lots of
>> people* with certain characteristics.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>   GPT4 definitely wanted to allow for a wide range of gradated,
>> speciated, spectral uses of "unique" and gave me plenty of commonly used
>> examples which validates my position that "for something so
>> obviously/technically incorrect, it sure is used a lot!"
>> >>>>
>> >>>>   We discussed uniqueness in the context of evolutionary biology
>> and cladistics and homology and homoplasy.  We discussed it in terms of
>> cluster analysis.  We discussed the distinction between objective and
>> subjective, absolute and relative.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>   The closest thing to a conclusion I have at the moment is:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>1. Most people do and will continue to treat "uniqueness" as
>> a relative/spectral/subjective qualifier.
>> >>>>2. Many people like Frank and myself (half the time) will
>> have an allergic reaction to this usage.
>> >>>>3. The common (mis)usage might be attributable to conflating
>> "unique" with "distinct"?
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>>
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>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
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>>
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[FRIAM] Reminder

[Frank Wimberly]

Friam at Downtown Subscription tomorrow because of construction at St
John's.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [FRIAM] Sleep trackers

[Frank Wimberly]

Don't remind me, Nick.  About 40(?) years ago I paid $5000 for an Apple II
which served as little more than a terminal that could do some graphics.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 1:19 PM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> Thanks everybody.  All interesting.
>
> As irony would have it, I was felled by a 72 hour virus and have barely
> woken up since posting this inquiry.
>
> By the way, being sick makes me more suceptible to click bait and I
> stumbled into this:
>
> Our 10 Best Laptops Best in the US - March 2024 | BestProductsReviews.com
> 
>
> I don't need a laptop so there is no danger I will buy anything, but Geez,
> am I reading these prices right?
>
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 9:12 PM Nicholas Thompson 
> wrote:
>
>> Everybody I know sleeps badly.  Has any of you had any lu from
>> heartrate?  ck with a sleeptracker.  Did it teach you anything you did not
>> already know?I borrowed a fit bit from my daughter and it tells me my
>> sleep efficiency is lousy, and I don't bet much rem or deep sleep.  Does it
>> know what it is talking about.   Can you get all of that.
>>
>> Any experience to share out there?
>>
>> Nick
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] the inequities of uniquity

[Frank Wimberly]

What's wrong with "unusual"?  It avoids the problem.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 1:55 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

>
> On 3/20/24 12:54 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> Everyday as I am listening to CNN I say, "There are no degrees of
> uniqueness," multiple times.
>
>
> I'm hung up on the usage of qualified  "uniqueness"  as well, but in
> perhaps the opposite sense.
>
> I agree with the premise that "unique" in it's purest, simplest form does
> seem to be inherently singular.  On the other hand, this mal(icious)
> propensity of qualifying uniqueness (uniqueish?) is so common, that I have
> to believe there is a concept there which people who use those terms are
> reaching for.  They are not wrong to reach for it, just annoying in the
> label they choose?
>
> I had a round with GPT4 trying to discuss this, not because I think LLMs
> are the authority on *anything* but rather because the discussions I have
> with them can help me brainstorm my way around ideas with the LLM nominally
> representing "what a lot of people say" (if not think).   Careful prompting
> seems to be able to help narrow down  *all people* (in the training data)
> to different/interesting subsets of *lots of people* with certain
> characteristics.
>
> GPT4 definitely wanted to allow for a wide range of gradated, speciated,
> spectral uses of "unique" and gave me plenty of commonly used examples
> which validates my position that "for something so obviously/technically
> incorrect, it sure is used a lot!"
>
> We discussed uniqueness in the context of evolutionary biology and
> cladistics and homology and homoplasy.  We discussed it in terms of cluster
> analysis.  We discussed the distinction between objective and subjective,
> absolute and relative.
>
> The closest thing to a conclusion I have at the moment is:
>
>1. Most people do and will continue to treat "uniqueness" as a
>relative/spectral/subjective qualifier.
>2. Many people like Frank and myself (half the time) will have an
>allergic reaction to this usage.
>3. The common (mis)usage might be attributable to conflating "unique"
>with "distinct"?
>
> - Steve
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Re: [FRIAM] Walking Thunder one page first pass

[Frank Wimberly]

Thanks, Barry.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 9:58 AM Barry MacKichan 
wrote:

> You might tell him that Jane Goodall does not spell her last name as
> Godall. I always feel like a jerk when I correct somebody like this, but
> perhaps he has a chance to change it.
>
> —Barry
>
> On 19 Mar 2024, at 21:24, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> I met the director of this film.  His enthusiasm was great and he seemed
> very proud of his work.  I told him I would forward this poster to people I
> thought would be interested.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Frank Wimberly 
> Date: Tue, Mar 19, 2024, 3:20 PM
> Subject: Re: Walking Thunder one page first pass
> To: Cyril Christo 
>
>
> Thanks, Cyril.  Will forward.
>
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2024, 10:39 AM Cyril Christo  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> *From:* "ettore spacewow.org" 
>> *Date:* March 18, 2024 at 9:33:14 PM MDT
>> *To:* Cyril Christo 
>> *Subject:* *FW: Walking Thunder one page first pass*
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Walking Thunder one page first pass

[Frank Wimberly]

Everyday as I am listening to CNN I say, "There are no degrees of
uniqueness," multiple times.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 9:58 AM Barry MacKichan 
wrote:

> You might tell him that Jane Goodall does not spell her last name as
> Godall. I always feel like a jerk when I correct somebody like this, but
> perhaps he has a chance to change it.
>
> —Barry
>
> On 19 Mar 2024, at 21:24, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> I met the director of this film.  His enthusiasm was great and he seemed
> very proud of his work.  I told him I would forward this poster to people I
> thought would be interested.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Frank Wimberly 
> Date: Tue, Mar 19, 2024, 3:20 PM
> Subject: Re: Walking Thunder one page first pass
> To: Cyril Christo 
>
>
> Thanks, Cyril.  Will forward.
>
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2024, 10:39 AM Cyril Christo  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> *From:* "ettore spacewow.org" 
>> *Date:* March 18, 2024 at 9:33:14 PM MDT
>> *To:* Cyril Christo 
>> *Subject:* *FW: Walking Thunder one page first pass*
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Sleep trackers

[Frank Wimberly]

I am so sorry, Jochen.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 12:59 AM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> I believe you can track your sleep using an iPhone and an Apple watch (but
> I have neither so I can't tell if it works well)
> https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT211685
>
> Personally I don't sleep well since Sunday when our horse died after a 3h
> colic operation in the clinic. Non-human animals like cats, dogs or horses
> do not cry tears to express emotion, but they express emotions in other
> ways and it was still a terrible experience to see her suffer without being
> to help.
>
> -J.
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Nicholas Thompson 
> Date: 3/20/24 4:13 AM (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>
> Subject: [FRIAM] Sleep trackers
>
> Everybody I know sleeps badly.  Has any of you had any lu from heartrate?
> ck with a sleeptracker.  Did it teach you anything you did not already
> know?I borrowed a fit bit from my daughter and it tells me my sleep
> efficiency is lousy, and I don't bet much rem or deep sleep.  Does it know
> what it is talking about.   Can you get all of that.
>
> Any experience to share out there?
>
> Nick
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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>
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[FRIAM] Fwd: Walking Thunder one page first pass

[Frank Wimberly]

I met the director of this film.  His enthusiasm was great and he seemed
very proud of his work.  I told him I would forward this poster to people I
thought would be interested.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

-- Forwarded message -
From: Frank Wimberly 
Date: Tue, Mar 19, 2024, 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: Walking Thunder one page first pass
To: Cyril Christo 


Thanks, Cyril.  Will forward.


---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Mar 19, 2024, 10:39 AM Cyril Christo  wrote:

>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From:* "ettore spacewow.org" 
> *Date:* March 18, 2024 at 9:33:14 PM MDT
> *To:* Cyril Christo 
> *Subject:* *FW: Walking Thunder one page first pass*
>
> 
>
>
>
>
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[FRIAM] Meeting Place

[Frank Wimberly]

St John's has begun a major remodeling/reconstruction of the Petersen
Center in which we usually meet on Friday mornings.  Today we met at
Downtown Subscription and we will do so again next week and until further
notice.

Frank
-- 
Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

Research:  https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
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[FRIAM] St John's Closed for Renovations

[Frank Wimberly]

Ed and I are headed to Downtown Subscription

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [FRIAM] The problems of interdisciplinary research

[Frank Wimberly]

I didn't read the article but Carnegie Mellon, where I worked for almost 20
years, prides itself on the amount of interdisciplinary research
accomplished there..  Herb Simon had appointments in psychology, computer
science, business and public policy, I believe.  I was a coauthor of papers
in robotics, public policy, computer science and philosophy.

On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 1:54 PM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> Tom Gauld describes most of the problems of interdisciplinary research in
> a single image
>
> https://www.newscientist.com/article/2389834-tom-gauld-on-areas-of-expertise/
>
> -J.
>
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>


-- 
Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

Research:  https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
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Re: [FRIAM] Slow AI

[Frank Wimberly]

>Though these were all experienced and confident men, the average year to
year correlation in their results was 0.01.  The highly rewarded experts of
finance have no real idea what they're doing, they are highly rewarded for
an "illusion of skill"<

One of my father-in-law's best friends was a man named Eli Shapiro who was
the Alfred P Sloan Professor of Economics at MIT.  My FIL asked him some
question about stock investing.  Shapiro said, "Chuck, nobody knows
anything."

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Jan 28, 2024, 3:08 PM Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> From: Roger Critchlow 
> Date: Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 11:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Next Dictator
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>
>
> I keep thinking that the next big dictator isn't new.
>
> Das Kapital is an artificial life form which by a process of natural
> selection pursues its own preservation and growth.  It doesn't care which
> individuals or institutions survive or perish in the process, it just moves
> and grows where the return on investment takes it.  It has no ethics, no
> morality, and no sense of humor.
>
> Daniel Kahneman in
> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/magazine/dont-blink-the-hazards-of-confidence.html
>  mentions
> analyzing 8 years of investment results for 25 successful
> investment advisers.  Though these were all experienced and confident men,
> the average year to year correlation in their results was 0.01.  The highly
> rewarded experts of finance have no real idea what they're doing, they are
> highly rewarded for an "illusion of skill", they play roulette with style
> and their clients buy them expensive clothes to do it in.  The news didn't
> faze them a bit;  that they can do what they do and get rewarded for it is
> all the affirmation they need.
>
> In dealing with Das Kapital, I think we're pretty much all in the same
> boat.  No one knows where the slime mold will choose to extend its
>  pseudopodia, or which of the pseudopodia will thrive or wither, or what
> the novel beneficial or lamentable consequences will be.  Some of us worry
> about the suffering caused by the gold-goo-excrement, others worry about
> not killing the beast that makes the gold-goo, many just fight for the
> largest share they can get, and most of us could care less until the bucket
> of gold-goo-excrement lands in our neighborhood or the gold-goo pseudopod
> feeding our investments dries up.
>
> --rec --
>
> On Sun, Jan 28, 2024 at 2:48 PM Roger Critchlow  wrote:
>
>> Das Kapital is our most successful experiment in artificial life, but
>> it's still feral and no one has the least clue how to domesticate it, and
>> the grey goo we're constructing is a mass of collateralized debt
>> instruments.
>>
>> -- rec --
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 28, 2024 at 11:03 AM Steve Smith  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> https://doctorow.medium.com/solar-is-a-market-for-financial-lemons-ea00699fe0a2
>>>
>>> I suspect the opinions among the members of this list range widely on
>>> Doctorow's work, my general response to him is a guarded positive.
>>>
>>> I offer this article to you nominally about the problems with
>>> rooftop-solar "gaming" but as a reflection on Corporations (and I claim
>>> governments, religions, other institutions) as "slow AI".   Rooftop Solar
>>> is just a contemporary somewhat benign case-study.
>>>
>>> They are both contrived as "rule-based" systems and evolved in the same
>>> mode as Machine Learning Models.
>>>
>>> The 2023 rush of AI/ML into the public's eye and hands might well
>>> overwhelm us with false-paths to individual and collective prosperity.
>>> Opportunities for dead-ends or overshoots abound in the harsh light of 
>>> "reward
>>> hacking" ?
>>>
>>> And then we have the spectre of
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>>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Please join Zoom meeting in progress Virtual Friam

[Frank Wimberly]

Who is "mom"?  The only one I know who is currently called that is Flor.
If we had been as strict with her as she is with her 3 kids a murder would
have occurred.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, 4:23 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> Merle said she was in Santa Fe.  She's very excited about creating a new
> academic field called Peace Engineering.  She mentioned going to Sweden,
> Libya etc and is very involved in thinking about Gaza.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, 4:20 PM Nicholas Thompson 
> wrote:
>
>> That sounds interesting. I am sorry I missed it. How is mom? Where is
>> Merle?
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 4:15 PM Frank Wimberly 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, we missed you.  Jochen joined briefly.  Stephen, Merle, Barry were
>>> also there.
>>>
>>> I'm sorry about the hassle of the dental work.  It'll be worth it.
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>
>>> 505 670-9918
>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, 1:47 PM Nicholas Thompson 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi, Frank,
>>>>
>>>> I was hoping to join you for a bit today but a super long dentist
>>>> appointment intruded. sscrewing and screwing unscrewing and screwing
>>>> unscrewin and screwing. An hour and a half. Exhausting but not painful
>>>> open, open more open bit more. Absent the apocalypse, I should get my new
>>>> teeth bolted in on February 15.
>>>>
>>>> Next week I promise to do look in on thuam
>>>>
>>>> All the best
>>>>
>>>> N
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my Dumb Phone
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 25, 2024, at 9:08 AM, Frank Wimberly 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> Join Zoom Meeting
>>>> https://us02web.zoom.us/j/255049879
>>>>
>>>> Meeting ID:  255 049 879
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>>
>>>> One tap mobile
>>>> +17193594580,,255049879# US
>>>> +12532050468,,255049879# US
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>>
>>>> Dial by your location
>>>> • +1 719 359 4580 US
>>>> • +1 253 205 0468 US
>>>> • +1 253 215 8782 US (Tacoma)
>>>> • +1 346 248 7799 US (Houston)
>>>> • +1 669 444 9171 US
>>>> • +1 669 900 6833 US (San Jose)
>>>> • +1 360 209 5623 US
>>>> • +1 386 347 5053 US
>>>> • +1 507 473 4847 US
>>>> • +1 564 217 2000 US
>>>> • +1 646 558 8656 US (New York)
>>>> • +1 646 931 3860 US
>>>> • +1 689 278 1000 US
>>>> • +1 301 715 8592 US (Washington DC)
>>>> • +1 305 224 1968 US
>>>> • +1 309 205 3325 US
>>>> • +1 312 626 6799 US (Chicago)
>>>>
>>>> Meeting ID:  255 049 879
>>>>
>>>> Find your local number: https://us02web.zoom.us/u/kd88R99Oxz
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
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>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>>>
>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. 

Re: [FRIAM] Please join Zoom meeting in progress Virtual Friam

[Frank Wimberly]

Merle said she was in Santa Fe.  She's very excited about creating a new
academic field called Peace Engineering.  She mentioned going to Sweden,
Libya etc and is very involved in thinking about Gaza.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, 4:20 PM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> That sounds interesting. I am sorry I missed it. How is mom? Where is
> Merle?
>
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 4:15 PM Frank Wimberly 
> wrote:
>
>> Yes, we missed you.  Jochen joined briefly.  Stephen, Merle, Barry were
>> also there.
>>
>> I'm sorry about the hassle of the dental work.  It'll be worth it.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, 1:47 PM Nicholas Thompson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi, Frank,
>>>
>>> I was hoping to join you for a bit today but a super long dentist
>>> appointment intruded. sscrewing and screwing unscrewing and screwing
>>> unscrewin and screwing. An hour and a half. Exhausting but not painful
>>> open, open more open bit more. Absent the apocalypse, I should get my new
>>> teeth bolted in on February 15.
>>>
>>> Next week I promise to do look in on thuam
>>>
>>> All the best
>>>
>>> N
>>>
>>> Sent from my Dumb Phone
>>>
>>> On Jan 25, 2024, at 9:08 AM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> Join Zoom Meeting
>>> https://us02web.zoom.us/j/255049879
>>>
>>> Meeting ID:  255 049 879
>>>
>>> ---
>>>
>>> One tap mobile
>>> +17193594580,,255049879# US
>>> +12532050468,,255049879# US
>>>
>>> ---
>>>
>>> Dial by your location
>>> • +1 719 359 4580 US
>>> • +1 253 205 0468 US
>>> • +1 253 215 8782 US (Tacoma)
>>> • +1 346 248 7799 US (Houston)
>>> • +1 669 444 9171 US
>>> • +1 669 900 6833 US (San Jose)
>>> • +1 360 209 5623 US
>>> • +1 386 347 5053 US
>>> • +1 507 473 4847 US
>>> • +1 564 217 2000 US
>>> • +1 646 558 8656 US (New York)
>>> • +1 646 931 3860 US
>>> • +1 689 278 1000 US
>>> • +1 301 715 8592 US (Washington DC)
>>> • +1 305 224 1968 US
>>> • +1 309 205 3325 US
>>> • +1 312 626 6799 US (Chicago)
>>>
>>> Meeting ID:  255 049 879
>>>
>>> Find your local number: https://us02web.zoom.us/u/kd88R99Oxz
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
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>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>>
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
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>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Breaking Bad and Free Will

[Frank Wimberly]

GNU Debugger?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, 4:11 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> Walter White was drawn into that life as sure as water runs downhill.
>  Watching him go deeper and deeper was like repeating “step” in GDB.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 25, 2024 1:34 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* [FRIAM] Breaking Bad and Free Will
>
>
>
> Since one of you mentioned today that free will is a recurring FRIAM topic
> I was thinking about it and found this SCIAM article that argues that human
> beings do have the power to make conscious choices.
>
> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/free-will-is-only-an-illusion-if-you-are-too/
>
> On the other hand the drug addicts in Breaking Bad and elsewhere clearly
> demonstrate that drug addiction inevitably takes away our free will and
> replaces it by a strong compulsion to get and consume the drug, no matter
> how devastating the consequences are.
>
>
>
> Robert McKee says in his book "Story: Substance, Structure, Style and the
> Principles of Screenwriting" that true character is revealed in the choices
> a human being makes under pressure. Could you say that a strong character
> or personality reduce our free will too, because they restrict our choices
> and decisions?
>
>
>
> -J.
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Please join Zoom meeting in progress Virtual Friam

[Frank Wimberly]

Yes, we missed you.  Jochen joined briefly.  Stephen, Merle, Barry were
also there.

I'm sorry about the hassle of the dental work.  It'll be worth it.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, 1:47 PM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> Hi, Frank,
>
> I was hoping to join you for a bit today but a super long dentist
> appointment intruded. sscrewing and screwing unscrewing and screwing
> unscrewin and screwing. An hour and a half. Exhausting but not painful
> open, open more open bit more. Absent the apocalypse, I should get my new
> teeth bolted in on February 15.
>
> Next week I promise to do look in on thuam
>
> All the best
>
> N
>
> Sent from my Dumb Phone
>
> On Jan 25, 2024, at 9:08 AM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>
> 
> Join Zoom Meeting
> https://us02web.zoom.us/j/255049879
>
> Meeting ID:  255 049 879
>
> ---
>
> One tap mobile
> +17193594580,,255049879# US
> +12532050468,,255049879# US
>
> ---
>
> Dial by your location
> • +1 719 359 4580 US
> • +1 253 205 0468 US
> • +1 253 215 8782 US (Tacoma)
> • +1 346 248 7799 US (Houston)
> • +1 669 444 9171 US
> • +1 669 900 6833 US (San Jose)
> • +1 360 209 5623 US
> • +1 386 347 5053 US
> • +1 507 473 4847 US
> • +1 564 217 2000 US
> • +1 646 558 8656 US (New York)
> • +1 646 931 3860 US
> • +1 689 278 1000 US
> • +1 301 715 8592 US (Washington DC)
> • +1 305 224 1968 US
> • +1 309 205 3325 US
> • +1 312 626 6799 US (Chicago)
>
> Meeting ID:  255 049 879
>
> Find your local number: https://us02web.zoom.us/u/kd88R99Oxz
>
>
>
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[FRIAM] Please join Zoom meeting in progress Virtual Friam

[Frank Wimberly]

Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/255049879

Meeting ID:  255 049 879

---

One tap mobile
+17193594580,,255049879# US
+12532050468,,255049879# US

---

Dial by your location
• +1 719 359 4580 US
• +1 253 205 0468 US
• +1 253 215 8782 US (Tacoma)
• +1 346 248 7799 US (Houston)
• +1 669 444 9171 US
• +1 669 900 6833 US (San Jose)
• +1 360 209 5623 US
• +1 386 347 5053 US
• +1 507 473 4847 US
• +1 564 217 2000 US
• +1 646 558 8656 US (New York)
• +1 646 931 3860 US
• +1 689 278 1000 US
• +1 301 715 8592 US (Washington DC)
• +1 305 224 1968 US
• +1 309 205 3325 US
• +1 312 626 6799 US (Chicago)

Meeting ID:  255 049 879

Find your local number: https://us02web.zoom.us/u/kd88R99Oxz
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Re: [FRIAM] Breaking Bad

[Frank Wimberly]

Jochen,

Now you know what the countryside looks like around here.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Jan 15, 2024, 10:46 AM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> The TV series Breaking Bad was created 10 years ago, but I only recently
> was able to watch it on Netflix. As you know it is about the question how a
> good man turns bad. The story starts with a tragedy, a lung cancer
> diagnosis for the main character Walt(er) White. Life has not been kind to
> the underpaid and overqualified chemistry teacher who has a disabled son
> and a pregnant wife. The cancer diagnosis pushes him over the edge and
> after it he seems to driven by the question "if life has been so bad to me
> why should I be good?". The episodes that follow describe how he "breaks
> bad" and turns toward crime.
>
> What do you think, did you like the TV series created in Albuquerque? Is
> the story accurate from a psychological perspective, i.e. can good people
> turn into bad ones if life refuses to be kind to them? In a way this story
> of a person who turns into a villain is the opposite of Joseph Campbell's
> classic story of a person who turns into a hero, isn't it?
>
> -J.
>
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Re: [FRIAM] sui generis

[Frank Wimberly]

Frank Zappa!  Now that was a long time ago.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Jan 9, 2024, 10:35 AM glen  wrote:

> I agree almost completely. Where I may disagree goes back to a
> conversation we (I've forgotten who was "there", though) had on vFriAM
> awhile back. There is something to uniqueness. An expression from the Very
> Weird is different from expressions from the less weird. I tend to think of
> it in terms of non-convex space and strictures in the manifold. If you've
> got a pathologically malformed space and "we" are all meandering around in
> that space, then some proportion of us will end up in little niches with
> few (or zero) neighbors. The puffs of "content" expressed by those weirdos
> will be more unique than the puffs from those with many neighbors.
>
> Of course, if you have zero neighbors, then your puffs may not be
> "remembered" at all by anyone. (I prefer "recognized" to "remembered". But
> to each her own.) So, there's some λ parameter for weirdness. Personally,
> although I appreciate, say, Frank Zappa's expressions, I don't enjoy many
> of them. Similarly, I don't appreciate or enjoy the expressions of Taylor
> Swift. But without such large pockets of convex space, where would our
> little white holes of weirdness be? We'd have no safe harbor at all.
>
> On 1/9/24 08:47, Prof David West wrote:
> > Ancient Greek notions of "creativity" lacked any sense of egocentric
> novelty. To 'create' was to 'remember'. This was grounded in the more
> general philosophy that denied the possibility of "something-from-nothing."
> >
> > In my Design Thinking book, there is a large section about this and
> about who "creation" is akin to midwifery, assisting something to express
> itself.
> >
> > Just as a midwife lacks "authorship" of a baby, so too do all
> "intellectuals" lack authorship of novel, innovative, or creative work—
> despite the boilerplate prefacing every Ph.D. thesis.
> >
> > davew
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 9, 2024, at 10:28 AM, glen wrote:
> >>
> https://www.science.org/content/article/billionaire-launches-plagiarism-detection-effort-against-mit-president-and-all-its
> >>
> >>
> https://thehill.com/policy/technology/4392624-new-york-times-chatgpt-lawsuit-poses-new-legal-threats-to-artificial-intelligence/
> >>
> >> I just can't help but analogize between Intelligent Design and these
> >> arguments of ownership/novelty of [ahem] "content". It all feels like
> >> the argument from design to me. For a paywalled for-profit like the NYT
> >> to go after a for-profit like OpenAI and a rapacious
> >> <
> https://www.thenation.com/article/society/william-ackman-harvard-donor/>
> >> billionaire to go after prestige-mongering elite institutions seems
> >> like a clear instance of elite overproduction
> >> . And to have it
> >> all leveraged on the fantasy fulcrum of novelty and ownership is making
> >> my head spin.
> >>
> >> But deep down, there's something to be said about intuitionism. At our
> >> last salon, someone asked how much ontological status we might give to
> >> stories about the Astral Plane. My answer derives entirely from what
> >> little I know about intersubjectivity and cross-species mind reading.
> >> If there is a commonality to nootropic or psychonaut experience, it
> >> derives from our common *structure*, including whatever deeply
> >> historical things like genetic memory that may (not) exist.
> >>
> >> It's fine to give lip service to intellectual humility. But such
> >> rhetoric can't persuade ... uh ... "people" like Ackman. Surely ...
> >> surely people like that are smart enough to grok things like gen-phen
> >> maps, robustness and polyphenism, etc. Right? And if they do get it,
> >> then we grass tufts can go on about our work, trying to be open, accept
> >> and apply credit and blame to the best of our abilities and ignore
> >> these fighting elephants. Right?
> >>
> >> --
> >> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] St John's Closed

[Frank Wimberly]

Yes, yes.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Jan 5, 2024, 11:34 AM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> DID people come?Was it OK?
>
> N
>
> On Fri, Jan 5, 2024 at 9:52 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>
>> I am at Chomp, Manhattan at Cerrillos I think.  Nick suggested that this
>> is more comfortable than Saveur.  I hope someone gets here soon.  I am
>> trying to occupy a community table.
>>
>> It's attached to O'Houri's.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
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[FRIAM] St John's Closed

[Frank Wimberly]

I am at Chomp, Manhattan at Cerrillos I think.  Nick suggested that this is
more comfortable than Saveur.  I hope someone gets here soon.  I am trying
to occupy a community table.

It's attached to O'Houri's.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
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[FRIAM] vFriam

[Frank Wimberly]

I guess the snow in Santa Fe is discouraging people from coming to vFriam.
jk

-- 
Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

Research:  https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
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Re: [FRIAM] SaveurTomorrow

[Frank Wimberly]

Maybe next time St John's coffee shop is closed.  Too late now.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Dec 28, 2023, 5:46 PM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> Hey Frank,
>
> On your way to server tomorrow, for future reference, check out Chomp,
> which is in the Luna center, along with Ohoris, at the intersection of
> Cerrillos and Manhattan. It’s an ugly space and I don’t know what they have
> for breakfast, but the coffee is good and there are long tables and I
> cannot imagine they are very crowded at that hour.
>
> Just a suggestion.
>
> Nick.
>
> On Thu, Dec 28, 2023 at 4:38 PM Frank Wimberly 
> wrote:
>
>> Friammers can show up there tomorrow AM.  I plan to order some food in
>> addition to coffee.
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
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>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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>>
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[FRIAM] SaveurTomorrow

[Frank Wimberly]

Friammers can show up there tomorrow AM.  I plan to order some food in
addition to coffee.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [FRIAM] The last Lighthouse Keeper in America

[Frank Wimberly]

p.s.  The pastor is a woman.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Dec 26, 2023, 7:17 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> Jochen,
>
> We live across the street from the United Church of Santa Fe.  It is a
> member of the United Church of Christ denomination (UCC).  A friend whose
> father was a Presbyterian minister said that UCC informally means
> "Unitarians Concerned with Christ".  The point is that their beliefs are
> universalist.
>
> Despite living so close to the church for 25+ years I have attended fewer
> than five services there, including Joe Traub's funeral.  After dinner on
> Christmas Eve I impulsively said, "Why don't we go to the service at
> 5:00?"  That service was focused on children.  Our group included my Jewish
> wife, a Muslim granddaughter (7), and our daughter and son-in-law who are
> Evangelical Christians.  The latter have a daughter who is three.  Our 11
> year old grandson says he has a relationship with God and he doesn't want
> anyone to tell him what it should be.  I am a fallen-away Presbyterian.
>
> It was a beautiful and well attended service.  After the pastor told the
> story that Franz Gruber discovered that his church's organ wouldn't play
> because of damage caused by mice so he asked the organist to play a guitar
> to accompany a poem that he, Gruber, had written.  The result was the
> Christmas carol "Silent Night".  Then that moment was reiterated here by
> the choir director playing that carol on his guitar while the congregation
> sang.
>
> The point is that it was, by my lights, a lovely service.  The church's
> parking lot is filled to capacity every Sunday morning.
>
> I am optimistic but probably won't attend services there regularly.
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Tue, Dec 26, 2023, 3:20 AM David Eric Smith 
> wrote:
>
>> I increasingly think the last keeper of democracy in the U.S. will be a
>> black woman.  Everybody else seems afraid.  The perennial complaints about
>> Neville Chamberlain come to mind.
>>
>> But still, best wishes for the New Year to you Jochen and to All.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Dec 26, 2023, at 4:39 AM, Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>> >
>> > Merry Christmas from Berlin! It must be Farolitos time now in Santa Fe,
>> right? Here in Berlin we have plenty of Christmas markets where you get hot
>> mulled wine. At Christmas Eve I was in the "American Church of Berlin"
>> which is over 120 years old. It was mostly empty though.
>> >
>> > While Donald Trump embodies the bad site of America - adultery, fraud,
>> hate, lies, greed and the rest of the mortal sins - the church classically
>> represents the good side of America: the selfless care for others,
>> Christian values and the feeling that everybody is welcome.
>> >
>> > It is sad to see churches slowly dying out like the old lighthouses at
>> the coast which showed ships the right way for centuries but are now
>> turning into mere tourist attractions. Will democracy die out together with
>> the churches too?
>> >
>> > This article about the last lighthouse keeper in the U.S. makes me
>> wonder if president Biden will be the last keeper of democracy in America
>> before the land falls into the darkness of a Trump dictatorship. What do
>> you think?
>> >
>> https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/11/06/the-last-lighthouse-keeper-in-america
>> >
>> > -J.
>> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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Re: [FRIAM] The last Lighthouse Keeper in America

[Frank Wimberly]

Jochen,

We live across the street from the United Church of Santa Fe.  It is a
member of the United Church of Christ denomination (UCC).  A friend whose
father was a Presbyterian minister said that UCC informally means
"Unitarians Concerned with Christ".  The point is that their beliefs are
universalist.

Despite living so close to the church for 25+ years I have attended fewer
than five services there, including Joe Traub's funeral.  After dinner on
Christmas Eve I impulsively said, "Why don't we go to the service at
5:00?"  That service was focused on children.  Our group included my Jewish
wife, a Muslim granddaughter (7), and our daughter and son-in-law who are
Evangelical Christians.  The latter have a daughter who is three.  Our 11
year old grandson says he has a relationship with God and he doesn't want
anyone to tell him what it should be.  I am a fallen-away Presbyterian.

It was a beautiful and well attended service.  After the pastor told the
story that Franz Gruber discovered that his church's organ wouldn't play
because of damage caused by mice so he asked the organist to play a guitar
to accompany a poem that he, Gruber, had written.  The result was the
Christmas carol "Silent Night".  Then that moment was reiterated here by
the choir director playing that carol on his guitar while the congregation
sang.

The point is that it was, by my lights, a lovely service.  The church's
parking lot is filled to capacity every Sunday morning.

I am optimistic but probably won't attend services there regularly.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Dec 26, 2023, 3:20 AM David Eric Smith  wrote:

> I increasingly think the last keeper of democracy in the U.S. will be a
> black woman.  Everybody else seems afraid.  The perennial complaints about
> Neville Chamberlain come to mind.
>
> But still, best wishes for the New Year to you Jochen and to All.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> > On Dec 26, 2023, at 4:39 AM, Jochen Fromm  wrote:
> >
> > Merry Christmas from Berlin! It must be Farolitos time now in Santa Fe,
> right? Here in Berlin we have plenty of Christmas markets where you get hot
> mulled wine. At Christmas Eve I was in the "American Church of Berlin"
> which is over 120 years old. It was mostly empty though.
> >
> > While Donald Trump embodies the bad site of America - adultery, fraud,
> hate, lies, greed and the rest of the mortal sins - the church classically
> represents the good side of America: the selfless care for others,
> Christian values and the feeling that everybody is welcome.
> >
> > It is sad to see churches slowly dying out like the old lighthouses at
> the coast which showed ships the right way for centuries but are now
> turning into mere tourist attractions. Will democracy die out together with
> the churches too?
> >
> > This article about the last lighthouse keeper in the U.S. makes me
> wonder if president Biden will be the last keeper of democracy in America
> before the land falls into the darkness of a Trump dictatorship. What do
> you think?
> >
> https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/11/06/the-last-lighthouse-keeper-in-america
> >
> > -J.
> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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[FRIAM] Meeting Tomorrow 12/22

[Frank Wimberly]

We will meet at Saveur beginning at 9:00am.  It's at the intersection of
Galisteo and Cerrillos downtown near the new courthouse.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [FRIAM] Working for the Military Institute of Technology Causes Cognitive Dissonance

[Frank Wimberly]

 He will be
>> forgotten by tomorrow, so one can just comment on the content of the
>> writing.)
>>
>>
>>
>> I don’t know where Chomsky ranks in the guruness indices.  But he is a
>> case study in the patterns of meme-authoritarianism.  A vast discourse of
>> negative statements, which (seen in many people I have to deal with) seem
>> to have only the goal of denying something specific somebody else is trying
>> to say or to do, accompanied by shifting, or shifty, assertive-sounding
>> statements, but ones that turn out to be slippery enough that you are never
>> permitted to attach a meaning to them and decide for yourself whether they
>> are valid or not.  Any judgment you pass against the constructive-sounding
>> statements can always be parried by an accusation that you are too low a
>> life-form to have understood the wisdom they encode.  Johnny Yune did this
>> nicely in the ancient camp-movie They Call me Bruce (maybe the sequel), in
>> the line “You are not ready for the tech-a-niques of the master.)
>>
>>
>>
>> Not sure why I feel compelled to compose typologies of the styles of
>> shiftiness in the world.  The impulse to see some fingerprints that occur
>> repeatedly seems to scratch some itch.
>>
>>
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 8, 2023, at 7:54 AM, Roger Frye  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> An anthropologist studies the warring ideas of Noam Chomsky | Aeon Essays
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2faeon.co%2fessays%2fan-anthropologist-studies-the-warring-ideas-of-noam-chomsky=E,1,7kZuJYAm_YL7i7F0egYQsLXP5J6KarwCykLLNp7F7CSfoIIKPZn_Qrb7kxCJRXulltZqQihTJMMfC53SQ0bvcA3AQCN0Y7NE5w1PBhbuK9UIO5D_1Bk,=1>
>>
>> aeon.co
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2faeon.co%2fessays%2fan-anthropologist-studies-the-warring-ideas-of-noam-chomsky=E,1,UbK_htNAn_PvXjC3vbBAs8ixXUNIJF5MhDxmCk8F56ppp2bp03KJxJTrYpiEX_Ml458OCZuaUPcXES3KpNQru4Y9f7BqLTonE5v4p6tyLA,,=1>
>>
>>
>>
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-- 
Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

Research:  https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
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[FRIAM] Virtual Friam

[Frank Wimberly]

If you attend live Friam I hope you will consider attending Virtual Friam *as
well* even if you are back in Santa Fe.  It's a different experience.

Arrive anytime between 9am and 11am.

https://bit.ly/virtualfriam

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [FRIAM] metathesis

[Frank Wimberly]

My dad was a nuclear engineer and nukular has always bothered me greatly.
I try to help people to say it right by telling them to think "new clear".
I'm not sure that would help Bush.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Dec 1, 2023, 8:21 AM glen  wrote:

>
> So, on the death of The War Criminal, I've been reflecting on the most
> irritating thing to me about George W Bush's stint: nukular. Sure. It's
> irritating that he started a war for no good reason. If we learn anything
> from Kissinger's treatment by the press, it's that those sorts of things
> don't actually matter.
>
> But the way you pronounce "nuclear"? That matters ... to me, anyway. I've
> managed to grind off the burrs in my thinking when someone says "axe"
> instead of "ask", glottals their Ts, etc. But I just can't get over
> nukular. Every time someone says it that way, whatever it was I was doing
> or thinking goes straight out the fscking window. With, say, "axe", I can
> actually do it myself without feeling shame. Same with t-flapping. (And
> vocal fry.)
>
> Wikipedia gives me a nice list of triggerable attributes of language:
> metathesis, elision, epenthesis, flapping, assimilation, dissimilation,
> etc. My request, here, is for examples from anyone that rankle you or that
> you've overcome. Presumably, the more aware I am with others' struggles
> with such, the less I'll be triggered by my own.
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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[FRIAM] Virtual Friam

[Frank Wimberly]

Everything in Santa Fe is closed today because of snow, including schools
and my daughter's job in State government..

But Virtual Friam is open https://bit.ly/virtualfriam

Frank

-- 
Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

Research:  https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
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Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM this Friday!

[Frank Wimberly]

The switchboard says the Peterson Coffee Shop will be open Friday.  I plan
to be there at 9ish.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Nov 21, 2023, 3:19 PM George Duncan  wrote:

> What with Thanksgiving, is Peterson going to be open. Any of us up for
> going?
>
> Saludos, George
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Mirror Neurons & Intersubjective Reality

[Frank Wimberly]

I knew Bill Chase.  He was a new assistant professor in the psych
department when I was a graduate student.  Tragically he died young.

During his recruitment talk he said that people can remember letter
sequences by creating phrases.  "For instance, they might remember 'BFG' by
using the phrase 'big fat garbage can'."
Bert F Green, who was the department chair asked, "How about 'big friendly
giant'?"

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Nov 16, 2023, 7:19 AM Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> A 60 second search found this behind a paywall:
>   William G Chase and Herbert A Simon. 1973. Perception in chess.
> Cognitive psychology 4(1):55–81.
> The abstract sounds right, but there were only three subjects in the study.
>
> -- rec --
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2023 at 6:21 AM David Eric Smith 
> wrote:
>
>> Just getting to this one, days late….
>>
>> On Nov 15, 2023, at 8:58 AM, Steve Smith  wrote:
>>
>> I have not (yet) read this critically, the introduction just tweaked my
>> (confirmation biased) interests:
>>
>> https://medicalxpress.com/news/2023-11-brain.html
>> 
>>
>> Here is one of several research stories that Elwyn Berlekamp told to me
>> during a visit to SFI many years ago in which I was his host (the closest I
>> will ever come to the experience of those who hosted Erdos).
>>
>> Elwyn was one of the principles of the MSRI research into mathematical
>> analysis of combinatorial games.
>>
>> Here was one project:
>>
>> Subjects are shown a chessboard with pieces on it, for a short time,
>> after which the board is cleared (remember Searching for Bobby Fisher:
>> “Here; I’ll help you”), and the subject is asked to reconstruct the piece
>> locations.
>>
>> The subjects were in two categories: high-level chess players, and
>> ordinary people who don’t really play seriously, though perhaps they
>> understand the rules of the game.
>>
>> I will recount to you the outcomes as they were told to me.  I have not
>> gone back to original sources so I don’t know if some stylization was added
>> to “sharpen the edges” of the picture.
>>
>> 1.  For pieces placed on a board by computer-random number generators,
>> the experts and the novices were not much different in speed or reliability
>> of replacing pieces.
>>
>> 2. When the arrangements were not randomly generated, but rather taken
>> from various stages in the play of games by high-level players, suddenly a
>> big gap opened up.  The novices did about the same as they had done for
>> randomly placed pieces at similar sparseness etc.  The experts got much
>> faster and more reliable.
>>
>> The experimenters, of course, wanted to say something mechanistic about
>> why.  To do this they put eye-trackers on the subjects, to find out what
>> they were looking at when presented with the blankened board and asked to
>> rebuild.  So: what did the experts look at first?  This is where the
>> tension of the joke is set up, to prepare for the punchline.
>>
>> 3. The place the experts looked first was at the “next good move” from
>> what had been the position, and they then backfilled the pieces in the
>> positions that had made it the next good move.
>>
>>
>> I find this story delightful.  If I were less lazy and really needed it
>> for anything, maybe I would do the work to find out how reliable it is.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Theil

[Frank Wimberly]

"PS I'll be in Santa Fe this Friday and probably at Friam."

Excellent.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Nov 14, 2023, 5:12 PM Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> The stars have aligned to make this assembly theory day!
>
> First this article on How Did Life Begin:
>
> https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/11/14/1082828/how-did-life-begin/
>
> pointed me to an open access article:
>https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06600-9
>Assembly theory explains and quantifies selection and evolution
>
> and then Eric S noticed the interview with Walker and Cronin
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFxIazwNP_0
>
> The interview itself, even with Fridman, is much more entertaining than
> Claude's summary.
>
> Walker and Cronin have a shared idiom for talking about the history of
> complexity in the universe which they use quite casually in the interview.
> This is probably the result of long familiarity with each other (Sara
> Walker, Lee Cronin, and Eric Smith were part of the Science Organizing
> Committee and speakers at Reconceptualizing the Origin of Life in November
> 2015) and of intense collaboration and arguments over Skype during the
> covid lockdown.  They also talk informally about a lot of ideas they've
> been thinking about.
>
> -- rec --
>
> PS I'll be in Santa Fe this Friday and probably at Friam.
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Re: [FRIAM] Theil

[Frank Wimberly]

Once Jaron Lanier visited us at BiosGroup.  We set up an impromptu
seminar.  My office mate said we should go to see who emerges as the alpha
guru.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 9:00 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

>
> On 11/13/23 5:39 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> I'm surprised Stuart Kauffman isn't in there.
>
> CultBiosGroup?
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Theil

[Frank Wimberly]

Were you responding to my post, Eric?  Probably not.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 6:43 PM David Eric Smith  wrote:

> Well in that case, definitely look up the interview he did with Sara
> Walker and Lee Cronin.
>
> I will not comment further.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> On Nov 13, 2023, at 5:57 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:
>
>
> On 11/13/23 12:06 PM, glen wrote:
>
> You might want to check the Gurometer. Lex has an entry:
>
>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oe-af4_OmzLJavktcSKGfP0wmxCX0ppP8n_Tvi9l_yc/edit?usp=sharing
>
> While Lex's scores are relatively low compared to some of the wackos on
> the list, we are known by association. And many of Lex's guests score
> relatively high.
>
> Fascinating resource,  thanks!  You are a veritable font (fount) of things
> like this that I should probably be able to find for myself.
>
> I had to look a little to find a key to the columns of the  table, I don't
> know if this is the preferred or only one, but it seemed close enough to be
> useful for my purposes:
>
> https://techhenzy.com/gurometer/
> 
>
> I haven't listened to enough of Lex's podcasts (did I mention 1-2 hours
> each?!) to be able to evaluate what his "coupling" is with his guests...
> even without the GuruMeter I felt that theme ("known by association") from
> the more prominent/recent interviewees he has engaged... but my contingent
> judgement of the *content* and *style* of the interviews counterbalanced
> that almost to an extreme.   Which is why I brought it up here.
>
> Implicit but likely opaque/arcane to your own references to community
> (self) policing and ?agonism?, I feel (with limited experience so far) that
> Fridman may well provide a regulating role within some community (of
> Galaxy-Brain Gurus?)...
>
> I doubt I will get the 'round t'uits but it seems like there is a tensor
> product to be explored among these folks and their various interactions
> with one another...   something interesting might emerge?   Maybe this only
> occurs to me because Lex is more of a coupling agent than a primary source
> of any ideas/theories/positions from what I've seen so far.   I haven't
> investigated the GuruMeter guys enough to understand their methods but I
> take it for granted they are not unserious in this work.
>
>
>
> On 11/13/23 10:08, Steve Smith wrote:
>
> It seems (maybe only to me?) that "will" is what defines the intersection
> of memory and imagination?   The free-will-less-ness-ers among us (ala
> Sopolsky
> 
> )
> may find this an entirely specious thing to consider or discuss (though
> without free will, what means "specious" or "discuss" or "consider" sans
> free-will?).
>
> I recently discovered Lex Fridman's podcasts
> 
> 
> and was quite surprised by several things (albeit with very limited
> sampling... all of his most recent interview with Musk and a bit of his
> interview with Isaacson and about half of the Harari one):   I don't
> significantly disagree with the general mistrust of Musk in his
> Autistic-ish style and affect, but I'd say that Lex brings out the best in
> him, showing him to be capable of thoughtful and even empathetic-ish
> observations.  As I understand it (from my reading of Isaacson's biography
> of Musk) brother Kimball may also be a significantly similar "regulating
> influence" on Elon.   Grimes maybe, maybe not.  The other mothers of his
> children, same-same... probably each and all of them for a period of time
> or within certain frameworks.   And again, same with the children... though
> maybe projection on my part having been moderately well-regulated in
> several modes by my own children during each of their phases (right up to
> their current middle-agedness).
>
> As an aside, Fridman's other interviews also all sound potentially
> fascinating... though I cringe at the fact/thought of interviews with
> Netanyahu, KanYE, Kushner, Rogan... the commentary I've read around
> those interviews tends to skew toward "how could you normalize (amplify?)
> those A**holes by even giving them the time of the 

Re: [FRIAM] Theil

[Frank Wimberly]

I'm surprised Stuart Kauffman isn't in there.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 5:31 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> I'm too lazy to run a kmeans now.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Nov 13, 2023, at 12:06 PM, glen  wrote:
> >
> > You might want to check the Gurometer. Lex has an entry:
> >
> >
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oe-af4_OmzLJavktcSKGfP0wmxCX0ppP8n_Tvi9l_yc/edit?usp=sharing
> >
> > While Lex's scores are relatively low compared to some of the wackos on
> the list, we are known by association. And many of Lex's guests score
> relatively high.
> >
> >> On 11/13/23 10:08, Steve Smith wrote:
> >> It seems (maybe only to me?) that "will" is what defines the
> intersection of memory and imagination?   The free-will-less-ness-ers among
> us (ala Sopolsky <
> https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/oct/24/determined-life-without-free-will-by-robert-sapolsky-review-the-hard-science-of-decisions>)
> may find this an entirely specious thing to consider or discuss (though
> without free will, what means "specious" or "discuss" or "consider" sans
> free-will?).
> >> I recently discovered Lex Fridman's podcasts <
> https://lexfridman.com/podcast/> and was quite surprised by several
> things (albeit with very limited sampling... all of his most recent
> interview with Musk and a bit of his interview with Isaacson and about half
> of the Harari one):   I don't significantly disagree with the general
> mistrust of Musk in his Autistic-ish style and affect, but I'd say that Lex
> brings out the best in him, showing him to be capable of thoughtful and
> even empathetic-ish observations.  As I understand it (from my reading of
> Isaacson's biography of Musk) brother Kimball may also be a significantly
> similar "regulating influence" on Elon.   Grimes maybe, maybe not.  The
> other mothers of his children, same-same... probably each and all of them
> for a period of time or within certain frameworks.   And again, same with
> the children... though maybe projection on my part having been moderately
> well-regulated in several modes by my own children during each of their
> phases (right up to their current middle-agedness).
> >> As an aside, Fridman's other interviews also all sound potentially
> fascinating... though I cringe at the fact/thought of interviews with
> Netanyahu, KanYE, Kushner, Rogan... the commentary I've read around
> those interviews tends to skew toward "how could you normalize (amplify?)
> those A**holes by even giving them the time of the day???!!!?".   Lex's
> interviews are definitely long-form (1-2 hours) compared to today's
> tik-tok/ad-jingle/bumper-sticker/snark-pith calibrated sound-bitery.I
> find myself avoiding them for this reason (not wanting to commit to
> listening past some of my own prejudices long enough to hear what they are
> really about?) but recognize (and have already begun to practice) that as
> with long-form written journalism, I can take it in bits, like I might eat
> a rich holiday meal... not try to gulp it down quickly in one sitting like
> a TV-dinner (for you X-ers, "Hot-Pocket", and Millenials == "??") for the
> mind.
> >> My recent fascination with Deacon's "Teleodynamics", Jeff Hawkins' take
> on the structure/function of the neocortex and Ian McGilchrist's updated
> take on brain bicameralism (Master and Emissary <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Master_and_His_Emissary>) feeds into
> this question of the intersection of memory and imagination and the
> implications of Transformer Models and other Generative Models in general.
>  My direct experience with GPT-4 and DALL-E is significant (many 10s of
> hours of engagement) but still a drop in the bucket.  There are times when
> I feel that all I've done is engaged with an incredibly high-dimensional
> french-curve/bezier spline and thereby been able to smoothly
> interpolate/extrapolate a handful of interesting (to me) data points into
> what feels like a powerful elaboration of what is implied by said curve-fit
> in the past (unknown knowns?) and future (unknown unknowns)?When I'm
> not totally enraptured by the (apparent?) novelty (relative to my
> expectations/predictions) of it's responses I'm generally disappointed at
> it's limited creativity...   and left puzzling over the question of
> "novelty vs creativity".
> >> Bumble,
> >>  - Steve
> >>> On 11/13/23 10:27 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >>> It seems to me that neither Musk and Thiel are interested in the
> unknown. They are interested in doing things they can already imagine.
> For Musk I thought that was because it is how he raises money.   Now I
> think he is not imagining consciousness in a, say, a transporter pattern
> buffer, he imagines life on the Enterprise bridge in his body.   Rockets
> are comparatively science fictiony for people that can't imagine transport
> without a car, so he gets some points for that.
>  On Nov 13, 2023, at 

Re: [FRIAM] "What Work Means"

[Frank Wimberly]

I spent my career at universities (2) except for a few years at Bell Labs
and Bios group.  I always felt that the organization I worked for was
altruistic.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Oct 27, 2023, 11:45 AM glen  wrote:

> That's a great article! But I have a bit of a bone to pick with it. (I
> know, right? What a boor I am.) I just can't help but read this as
> inherently Presty. I work with a handful of GenZ at my minimum wage side
> gig. They are hustlers, through and through. So a theme of the Presty
> article does ring, that of "financially stable" (never ever ever mind
> "well-off"; that's not even in the lexicon). But in that pursuit, my
> decidedly non-Presty friends work more than one job. One of them has a job
> at 2 breweries, working as an assistant brewer in one and as a "cellar
> person" at the other because Assistant Brewer doesn't provide quite enough
> income to pay the rents sought by our Land Lords. Another has 2 jobs, one
> as a bartender and the other as a ... what? ... "accounting logistics" (?)
> person at a car dealership.
>
> So the perspective and focus presented by Aden in the Presty article seems
> VERY privileged to me ... but no more so than the privilege expressed by,
> say, Steve's story about a state school graduate's perspective on the grant
> submission/evaluation process. Is it any wonder we see more graffiti like
> "Eat the Rich" these days? Is it any wonder my non-Presty friends don't
> vote?
>
> Another theme implicit in the article is Sam Bankman-Fried's huckster
> rhetoric of Effective Altrusim. When Presties talk of "service", "mission",
> and "meaning", I get this icky feeling deep down. An article from Harvard
> talking about work-life balance makes me a bit sick to my stomach in the
> same way as listening to Peter Thiel talk about the Straussian Moment (or
> Robin Hanson arguing we should have more babies). Yuck. I need a shower to
> wash off this Presty filth.
>
> But similar to Eric's local deconstruction of Elliott's bullshit about
> bimodal distributions, what's a hyper-privileged Presty to do? What options
> are there other than going with the flow? What? Should Aden quit college
> and ... walk the earth? https://youtu.be/dLdRsofkCVs?si=quzxQt7wOUZT375g
> Nah. He should stay in the game and propel the criminal enterprise until he
> finds his golden parachute. If he can't suppress his appetite for
> "meaning", he can snack on some Greenwashing and, say, support the paper
> straw initiative at the local county commissioner meetings.
>
> On 10/26/23 13:19, Tom Johnson wrote:
> > FRIAM-ers:
> > Many of us, probably a majority, have spent a lot of years in or around
> college campuses.  We dealt with students for decades.  The latest issue of
> Harvard Magazine has an interesting essay by a graduating senior describing
> his and his classmates' outlook on their future and the world.  All I can
> say is I'm glad I am retired.
> > See "What Work Means <
> https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2023/11/university-people-undergraduate-what-work-means
> >."
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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[FRIAM] Semiconductors

[Frank Wimberly]

Erica R.H. Fuchs, a professor in the Department of Engineering and Public
Policy in Carnegie Mellon University’s College of Engineering, has been
appointed to the inaugural board of trustees(opens in new window) that will
oversee the National Semiconductor Technology Center (NSTC). The core
research and development component of the Department of Commerce’s CHIPS
for America program, NSTC aims to strengthen U.S. leadership in
semiconductor research, design, engineering and advanced manufacturing.

“Erica is a brilliant talent, and the perfect choice to help guide the
direction of an organization that is pivotal to the future of manufacturing
and innovation in America,” said CMU President Farnam Jahanian. “Carnegie
Mellon University is proud to call her one of our own, and I look forward
to watching Erica shape the success of the National Semiconductor
Technology Center as well as CHIPS for America.”

Expected to launch this fall, the NSTC was a key component of the CHIPS and
Science Act of 2022 that focused on promoting semiconductor manufacturing.
A semiconductor is a material that controls electric currents, making it
the “brains” behind most modern electronics, including smartphones,
computers and televisions.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
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Re: [FRIAM] Language Model Understanding

[Frank Wimberly]

"Truth" is well defined.  It is the set of propositions which assert that
what is the case is the case.  Determining whether a given proposition is
true may be difficult.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Oct 9, 2023, 10:23 AM glen  wrote:

> OK, I agree, mostly. But "truth" is no more well-defined than any other
> specific grounding style. E.g. the insistence that there is truth in
> fiction. There is affective truth in MAGA, just like there's truth in
> whatever justification Hamas might give for its reaction to the bloodshed
> of the Israeli settlements. But such truths are so abstracted, they can be
> [a|mis]used at will and the narrative spin used to whip up the adherents
> provides any glue needed to make it seem as true as it needs to seem to
> spur the adherents to action.
>
> It's a bad analogy from, say, Hamas to shut up and calculate. But it can
> be made. It's fun watching intra-science tribe members pick at each other
> for their sloppiness in communicating science. E.g. Sabine's take on
> transitioning. Whatever. If a tribe polices itself, then their
> trustworthiness is much higher ... for me, at least. I'm glad the
> Republicans are in a civil war. It's evidence they may recover as a party.
> If people stop telling me I'm wrong, then I'm most likely very wrong. As
> long as I've still got people telling me I'm wrong, then I'm at least
> somewhere near not-wrong.
>
>
> On 10/9/23 08:24, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > I mean there are some categories that are disjoint or mostly disjoint.
>  Similarly, the grounding is not total.   I agree that value systems like
> MAGA have power, but they don't have truth.  There is no truth.  All there
> is, is power, which is my point.  QM and demagoguery are both tools, with
> different contexts for use.
> >
> >> On Oct 9, 2023, at 7:48 AM, glen  wrote:
> >>
> >> Hm. Even with the caveat of "generally", I think this complementarity
> argument fails because all the various categories are not disjoint. And
> it's the (somewhat) lack(ing) of grounding/binding that allows the mixing
> of the modes. I'd tried to point this out by using "computation", the idea
> that human innovation might be more universal than microbial innovation.
> It's not really that the values *lack* grounding. It's that their grounding
> is complicated, perhaps iterative? maybe heterarchical? IDK, but certainly
> not lacking any grounding.
> >>
> >> An abstracted value system like that of the 09A OR MAGA cults may have
> *more* power, more chances to hook and unhook because it gives the donner
> and doffer of that value system more opportunities to do the donning and
> doffing at whatever arbitrary points they choose, to lazily benefit
> themselves without having to handle any unintended/unconsidered entailments.
> >>
> >>> On 10/8/23 18:18, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >>> This doesn't make them more valuable because they lack grounding.
> >>
> >>> On 10/8/23 13:21, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >>> Generally attaching to one value system means not attaching to another
> value system.   For example, adopting the value of tolerance logically is
> at odds with policing intolerance, e.g., one Jewish neighbor remarked this
> morning he drove past a home with a Hamas flag on it and was scared.
>  (Reducing that fear by removing the flag would be reducing tolerance.)
> >>> It seems to me that ideas that work have power and things that don’t
> work don’t have power.
>
> --
> glen
>
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[FRIAM] Don't mess with my cousins...

[Frank Wimberly]

https://www.weatherforddemocrat.com/news/local_news/bull-rider-charged-with-shooting-hitchhiker/article_b139c51a-80a5-5cb3-a9ce-b57c8fbf19f8.html#:~:text=McKennon%20Wimberly%2C%20son%20of%20National,severe%20brain%20injury%2C%20a%20broken

Seriously, I don't know him.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books

[Frank Wimberly]

Read Blood Meridian, Nick.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Sep 4, 2023, 1:13 PM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> Hi, Steve,
>
> Thanks for your observations concerning bad hand writing and early typing
> as shaping The Mind, for better or for worse.  My handwriting is hopeless.
> I cannot even read my own notes. Not sure what it has done to my mind, but
> it is something else that we share.
>
> I know I am bending the thread, here, but I think of Cormac MacCarthy's 
> *Stella
> Maris* as a kind of science fiction ... historical science fiction,
> perhaps?  I have read it twice this summer.  A Romance, of sorts.
>
> Nick
>
> On Mon, Sep 4, 2023 at 1:31 PM Steve Smith  wrote:
>
>> Great list Carl!  And more interesting yet to me:
>>
>> *I would like to feed...*
>> *...into the AI and see what millennium long sci-fi it could turn out. *
>>
>> I'm definitely fascinated by the implied interpolation (and
>> extrapolation?) an LLM can do in what is by definition firstly *linguistic*
>> space and what that implies for it's ?dual? in conceptual space?
>>
>> and even more interesting:
>>
>> *How would what it writes be different if it could be taught to write
>> using a nib pen a la Stephenson or a brush on washi paper?*
>>
>> In my lifetime I have kept various chronicles and correspondence via
>> handwriting using (mostly) roller-ball ink pens but also for some periods
>> fountain pens.A great deal more of that type of
>> chronicle/correspondence was effected on a keyboard much like (or exactly)
>> the one I'm typing on now (circa 2011 13" Macbook Pro)... As you all
>> painfully know, I'm pretty prolific in e-mail/e-txt which reflects a few
>> things:
>>
>>- my handwriting is abysmal and can be
>>physically/emotionally/mentally excruciating to execute sometimes.
>>- I learned to type at a very young age to compensate for the above
>>and it really freed me.
>>- I sometimes feel that I am actually *thinking* differently whilst
>>using the von-Neuman-esque linear "tape" as extended memory/program-space.
>>- I have at times in my life had a similar experience when working
>>with mathematical notation and with geometric constructions.
>>- These experiences are significantly different qualitatively (when
>>done by hand vs keyboard/mouse/etc)...
>>   - each mode is distinct with benefits/detractions
>>   - I feel I *think* and *feel* differently when coupling my
>>   cognitive self to my recorded/expressive self?
>>
>> I choose to use a fountain pen on well-toothed paper when I want to write
>> "meditatively"... the feel of the nib on the tooth and the flow of the ink
>> and the smell and the sounds all provide something similar to "breath work"
>> for me.
>>
>> I'm not sure my facility with the keyboard actually serves me.   As many
>> of you may suspect, and I suspect so myself, it allows me to be much less
>> thoughtful and rigorous than I would be in handwriting or if I had some
>> other throttle or impedance elements between linguistic centers and "paper"?
>> On 9/3/23 10:44 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:
>>
>> Gregory Benford's "Galactic Center Saga".
>> Greg Bear's "Darwin's Radio" and "The Way" series.
>> Benford, Bear, and David Brin also extended Asimov's "Foundation" series
>> - more stuff actually happens
>> Larry Niven's "Ringworld" and all its spinoffs and prequels, anything
>> with the character Louis Wu in it.
>> Neal Stephenson's "The Diamond Age"
>> Bruce Sterling's "Distraction"
>> Anything by Terry Pratchett.
>> Adrian Tchaikovsky's "Children of Time" and sequels.
>> Lin Carter's short story "Masters of the Metropolis"
>>
>> That should keep you busy for a few days.  I suspect not everyone would
>> think of these as optimistic.
>>
>> I would like to feed Timothy Snyder's Youtube lectures on Ukraine
>> and Neal Stephenson's "Quicksilver"
>> and Eiji Yoshikawa's "Taiko"
>> into the AI and see what millennium long sci-fi it could turn out.
>> How would what it writes be different if it could be taught to write
>> using a nib pen a la Stephenson or a brush on washi paper?
>>
>> R.A. Lafferty wrote sometime ago "Arrive at Easterwine" about a computer
>> writing a novel from a mashup perspective of its creators.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 3, 2023 at 11:13 AM Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>>
>>> I have read "Highway of Eternity" from Clifford D. Simak this weekend,
>>> one of the books from the golden age of science fiction which is comparable
>>> to "The city and the Stars" from Arthur C. Clarke and "The end of eternity"
>>> from Isaac Asimov. Both belong to my favorite books. Modern authors don't
>>> write like this anymore. Their books are often gloomy and depressive, and
>>> do not span millions of years. What is your favorite science fiction book?
>>> Will the AI breakthrough in large language models lead to more optimistic
>>> science fiction books again?
>>>
>>> -J.
>>>
>>> -. --- - / ...- .- 

Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books

[Frank Wimberly]

I had posted a link to an article about a mass shooting in Norway in
response to a claim that most mass shootings occur in the U.S.  I can't
find that post so I'll repeat it.  This was only one attack but 77 people
were killed.


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/anders-behring-breivik-appeal-european-court-of-human-rights-norway-massacre/


---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Sep 3, 2023, 11:13 AM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> I have read "Highway of Eternity" from Clifford D. Simak this weekend, one
> of the books from the golden age of science fiction which is comparable to
> "The city and the Stars" from Arthur C. Clarke and "The end of eternity"
> from Isaac Asimov. Both belong to my favorite books. Modern authors don't
> write like this anymore. Their books are often gloomy and depressive, and
> do not span millions of years. What is your favorite science fiction book?
> Will the AI breakthrough in large language models lead to more optimistic
> science fiction books again?
>
> -J.
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books

[Frank Wimberly]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/anders-behring-breivik-appeal-european-court-of-human-rights-norway-massacre/


---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Sep 3, 2023, 3:21 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> At one point, maybe still, the largest mass shooting took place in
> Norway.  Correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sun, Sep 3, 2023, 3:16 PM Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>
>> Well, I still believe there is a gun problem in the United States, yes.
>> Definitely. Just recently a police officer fatally shot a pregnant Black
>> woman in the parking lot of a grocery store in Ohio after she refused to
>> exit her car. And Ohio is not even a red state, right? It is also well
>> known that the US has substantially more mass shootings than other
>> countries. This is one reason why I do not want to travel to the USA at the
>> moment - South Africa also does not feel safe to me after various reports
>> in the last months about missing tourists.
>>
>> The other is the lack of good food. In Europe and Asia there is such a
>> variety of good restaurants and healthy food. In Germany and Great Britain
>> not so much, except in the larger cities, but in the Mediterranean
>> countries like Spain, Italy, Greece and Israel the food is awesome. In
>> South Korea, Thailand, Vietnam and Japan as well.
>>
>> -J.
>>
>>
>>  Original message 
>> From: Steve Smith 
>> Date: 9/3/23 8:59 PM (GMT+01:00)
>> To: friam@redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books
>>
>> Jochen -
>>
>> I thought of you more than few times on my long walkabout through
>> Red/Purple-state 'murrica...  mostly your concerns a year or two ago about
>> traveling to the US "because gun violence".   I was in the heart of "gun
>> country" through this trip and saw a few artifacts of that which would
>> naturally be *very* disturbing (methinks) to someone not already innured to
>> it... but not nearly as many as you might expect.  On the other hand I just
>> saw a news item that Canada and many other first-world countries have in
>> place "travel warnings" for not the US proper, but many of the more
>> egregious "red states".   I believe you may have already made your
>> 'murrican sojourn so the point may be moot... but I couldn't help thinking
>> "how would Jochen see this?" as I stumbled through a landscape of bison,
>> hay bales, corn fields, motorcycles, strip malls, and gun shows.
>>
>> I have read "Highway of Eternity" from Clifford D. Simak this weekend,
>> one of the books from the golden age of science fiction which is comparable
>> to "The city and the Stars" from Arthur C. Clarke and "The end of eternity"
>> from Isaac Asimov. Both belong to my favorite books. Modern authors don't
>> write like this anymore. Their books are often gloomy and depressive, and
>> do not span millions of years. What is your favorite science fiction book?
>> Will the AI breakthrough in large language models lead to more optimistic
>> science fiction books again?
>>
>> Back on topic:  I grew up on a lot of "Golden Age" works/authors which
>> includes Simak/Clarke/Asimov of course.   I would claim that this time was
>> naturally one of "Utopianism" that came with the rapid development of
>> industry/technology/science.  I think the Dystopianism ramped up with
>> PostModernism and Cyberpunk.   I'm a big fan of Cyberpunk (esp..
>> Gibson/Sterling/Stephenson/Cadigan/etc.) and *some* post-Apocalyptic
>> works... now almost exclusively "CliFi" (Climate Fiction), but I get your
>> yearning for "the good ole days".   I'd say Elon Musk grew up on "too much
>> Utopian SF" as well and (unlike me) hasn't outgrown it?
>>
>> My *favorite* golden-age author is Jack Williamson
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Williamson> who I've mentioned here
>> before and had the distinction of being somewhat elder when he published
>> his first work at age 20 (1928) in Hugo Gernsback's first-of-kind Amazing
>> Stories (1926).   I feel like he hit his stride after WWII where he had
>> been a (civilian, not military due to age) Weatherman in the Pacific and
>> reacted to a dawning self-awareness of the flip side of techno-Utopianism
>> (exemplified by Hiroshima/Nagasaki)...   His (re)entry into publication
>> after a long hiatus (during/after WWII) was With Folded H

Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books

[Frank Wimberly]

At one point, maybe still, the largest mass shooting took place in Norway.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Sep 3, 2023, 3:16 PM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> Well, I still believe there is a gun problem in the United States, yes.
> Definitely. Just recently a police officer fatally shot a pregnant Black
> woman in the parking lot of a grocery store in Ohio after she refused to
> exit her car. And Ohio is not even a red state, right? It is also well
> known that the US has substantially more mass shootings than other
> countries. This is one reason why I do not want to travel to the USA at the
> moment - South Africa also does not feel safe to me after various reports
> in the last months about missing tourists.
>
> The other is the lack of good food. In Europe and Asia there is such a
> variety of good restaurants and healthy food. In Germany and Great Britain
> not so much, except in the larger cities, but in the Mediterranean
> countries like Spain, Italy, Greece and Israel the food is awesome. In
> South Korea, Thailand, Vietnam and Japan as well.
>
> -J.
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Steve Smith 
> Date: 9/3/23 8:59 PM (GMT+01:00)
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books
>
> Jochen -
>
> I thought of you more than few times on my long walkabout through
> Red/Purple-state 'murrica...  mostly your concerns a year or two ago about
> traveling to the US "because gun violence".   I was in the heart of "gun
> country" through this trip and saw a few artifacts of that which would
> naturally be *very* disturbing (methinks) to someone not already innured to
> it... but not nearly as many as you might expect.  On the other hand I just
> saw a news item that Canada and many other first-world countries have in
> place "travel warnings" for not the US proper, but many of the more
> egregious "red states".   I believe you may have already made your
> 'murrican sojourn so the point may be moot... but I couldn't help thinking
> "how would Jochen see this?" as I stumbled through a landscape of bison,
> hay bales, corn fields, motorcycles, strip malls, and gun shows.
>
> I have read "Highway of Eternity" from Clifford D. Simak this weekend, one
> of the books from the golden age of science fiction which is comparable to
> "The city and the Stars" from Arthur C. Clarke and "The end of eternity"
> from Isaac Asimov. Both belong to my favorite books. Modern authors don't
> write like this anymore. Their books are often gloomy and depressive, and
> do not span millions of years. What is your favorite science fiction book?
> Will the AI breakthrough in large language models lead to more optimistic
> science fiction books again?
>
> Back on topic:  I grew up on a lot of "Golden Age" works/authors which
> includes Simak/Clarke/Asimov of course.   I would claim that this time was
> naturally one of "Utopianism" that came with the rapid development of
> industry/technology/science.  I think the Dystopianism ramped up with
> PostModernism and Cyberpunk.   I'm a big fan of Cyberpunk (esp..
> Gibson/Sterling/Stephenson/Cadigan/etc.) and *some* post-Apocalyptic
> works... now almost exclusively "CliFi" (Climate Fiction), but I get your
> yearning for "the good ole days".   I'd say Elon Musk grew up on "too much
> Utopian SF" as well and (unlike me) hasn't outgrown it?
>
> My *favorite* golden-age author is Jack Williamson
>  who I've mentioned here
> before and had the distinction of being somewhat elder when he published
> his first work at age 20 (1928) in Hugo Gernsback's first-of-kind Amazing
> Stories (1926).   I feel like he hit his stride after WWII where he had
> been a (civilian, not military due to age) Weatherman in the Pacific and
> reacted to a dawning self-awareness of the flip side of techno-Utopianism
> (exemplified by Hiroshima/Nagasaki)...   His (re)entry into publication
> after a long hiatus (during/after WWII) was With Folded Hands
> , a reflective dystopian
> view of techno-utopianism as well as work presaging Asimov's Robot series
> as well as a plethora of concepts like
> Borg/Cylon/Replicant/Terminators/Cybermen/Sentinels, etc...   and of course
> all of this was preceded by Lem's Trurl and Klapaucius (wizard-robot
> constructors) and the Hebrew Golem (and Frankenstein's Monster and... and
> and.)  He wrote over 50 novels ultimately in his 98 year long life as well
> as myriad short stories, novellas and a 3 year run of a comic strip (early
> 50s)... He also penned a reflective autobiography late in life (70s) but
> with nearly 20 years worth of career following that!  He taught writing at
> Eastern NM University well into his 90s as well.
>
> For the most part I'm thankful to be beyond the flat-character
> cardboard-cutout, misogynistic, stoicly independent/capable (white-male)
> 

[FRIAM] Venue Tomorrow 8/11

[Frank Wimberly]

St John's Coffee Shop will be closed.  I just talked to the owner of Saveur
located at the intersection of Galisteo and Cerrillos downtown.  They would
be happy to host us from 9-11.

It would be good to order something in addition to a beverage.  Anything
from a cookie to a full breakfast will do.  We met there once before a few
years ago.

p.s.  Galisteo and Cerrillos do intersect right by the new courthouse.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [FRIAM] Swirlies redux

[Frank Wimberly]

I'm not sure how this fits with what you wrote, Eric but it may be
interesting regardless.

In the late 1990s Clark Glymour and I wrote a paper on using causal
inference algorithms to discover the structure of genetic regulatory
networks based on microarray data.  We tested a number of methods on a
variety of datasets.  We had asked Professor X for a dataset that he used
to confirm that his algorithm was effective.  He declined to provide it.
We reported this in our final paper which we submitted to the Journal of
Machine Learning Research.  The referees recommended that our paper be
rejected because we insulted Professor X.  Glymour, who has published on
the order of ten books and five hundred papers said to hell with them and
we published the paper in a handbook on on algorithms for computing gene
networks.  I really wanted a paper in JMLR.  Oh well.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 2:35 PM David Eric Smith  wrote:

> The uncanny valley for me in this is its extraordinary astuteness for the
> use patterns of weasel wording in the kind of hostage-video writing that
> any scientist who is still alive to work will have done in grant proposals,
> responses to referee reports and other such things.  Given how blithe it is
> about things like magnitude (c.f. Cris Moore’s example in the SFI public
> lecture about its proposing prime factors for some large number), it is
> incredibly sharp about how weasel words are used to try to get credit for
> something while accepting no responsibility.  Various combinations of
> insinuation, promulgation of bad categories, and other sleights of hand.
>
> I can envision a kind of scientific literature that consists only of
> good-faith writing, in which if you think there is a resemblance or pattern
> you are allowed to say so and explain what you are cueing off of, and if
> you can’t cash it out you can try to make clear where you are stuck.  But
> in a world where all decision-making has gone down the drain of trying to
> get something for nothing, I can’t imagine that scientific literature as a
> component, uncorrupted by the hefty amount of all this other stuff.
>
> Eric
>
>
> On Aug 6, 2023, at 5:20 AM, Stephen Guerin 
> wrote:
>
> Yeah those students got a C+ for sloppy conclusions with no evidence.
>
> I see your crucifix and raise you with this C- lab report :-)
>
>
> **Student Lab Report**
>
> **Title:** Natural Selection's Influence on Vortex Formation in Fluid
> Dynamics
>
> **Objective:** This lab aimed to investigate vortex formation in fluid
> dynamics, exploring how principles akin to natural selection could explain
> the emergence and persistence of specific vortex structures and behaviors.
>
> **Method:** The experiment utilized two 2-liter clear plastic bottles,
> water, a tube connector, and glitter to observe vortex formation.
>
> **Findings:**
>
> 1. **Emergence of Dominant Vortex Patterns:** Certain vortex patterns
> persisted over time while others dissipated. The more stable and efficient
> patterns became dominant, akin to how natural selection allows favorable
> traits to prevail.
>
> 2. **Adaptation to System Changes:** When the system's conditions were
> altered, different vortex patterns emerged, demonstrating adaptability
> comparable to organisms responding to environmental changes.
>
> 3. **Efficiency as a Selection Criterion:** Vortices that allowed quicker
> drainage succeeded in the system. This efficiency served as a selection
> criterion, parallel to how natural selection favors traits that enhance
> survival or reproduction.
>
> 4. **Real-World Applicability:** The concept was extended to real-world
> weather systems, where specific patterns may persist due to their stability
> or efficiency, analogous to the operation of natural selection in
> biological systems.
>
> **Conclusion:** This investigation into vortex formation through the lens
> of natural selection offered a unique perspective on fluid dynamics. By
> identifying principles common to both natural selection and vortex
> behavior, we gained insights into why certain structures emerge and
> persist. This approach has potential implications for understanding various
> physical phenomena, from small-scale fluid dynamics to large-scale weather
> systems, and could even offer insights into interdisciplinary areas where
> physics and biology converge.
>
> On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 1:51 PM David Eric Smith  wrote:
>
>> It’s great that the principle of least action applies only to vortices.
>> Kinda like a crucifix, that wards off whatever crucifixes ward off.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 6, 2023, at 12:09 AM, Stephen Guerin 
>> wrote:
>>
>> There were 10 or so intermediate prompts to drive chatGPT to that lab
>> report.
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 8:52 AM Stephen Guerin 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> chatGPT, you are a graduate student at c the Santa Fe Institute's
>>> complex systems summer school, write a lab report on 

[FRIAM] Virtual Friam Tomorrow

[Frank Wimberly]

The meeting will start a few minutes later than usual tomorrow 8/3.  9:45
am MDT should be possible.  I realize this is irrelevant for most of you to
whom I apologize for the distraction.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
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[FRIAM] vFriam

[Frank Wimberly]

No one has arrived yet (9:20 MDT).  Unless people arrive before 10:00 I
will likely close the meeting.

Frank
-- 
Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

Research:  https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
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Re: [FRIAM] Thursday

[Frank Wimberly]

I won't mention it.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 6:43 AM Prof David West  wrote:

>
> I am going to the Oshkosh Air Show next week. Mathew would be jealous.
>
> davew
>
> On Tue, Jul 18, 2023, at 7:08 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> We're taking grandson Matthew to Colorado Springs to see the WW2 Aircraft
> Museum.  We leave tomorrow and return Friday.  That means I won't be in
> Santa Fe Thursday morning.  John Dobson, a regular attendee of vFriam, will
> be in Santa Fe that day.  We can either skip vFriam this week or Stephen
> can start it up and assign a host.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
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[FRIAM] Thursday

[Frank Wimberly]

We're taking grandson Matthew to Colorado Springs to see the WW2 Aircraft
Museum.  We leave tomorrow and return Friday.  That means I won't be in
Santa Fe Thursday morning.  John Dobson, a regular attendee of vFriam, will
be in Santa Fe that day.  We can either skip vFriam this week or Stephen
can start it up and assign a host.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [FRIAM] We're taking grandson Matthew to Colorado Springs to see the WW2 Aircraft Museum. We leave tomorrow and return Friday. That means I won't be in Santa Fe Thursday morning. John Dobson, a re

[Frank Wimberly]

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 7:05 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> What do you think, Steph?
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
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[FRIAM] We're taking grandson Matthew to Colorado Springs to see the WW2 Aircraft Museum. We leave tomorrow and return Friday. That means I won't be in Santa Fe Thursday morning. John Dobson, a regula

[Frank Wimberly]

What do you think, Steph?

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [FRIAM] What is an agent [was: Philosophy and Science}

[Frank Wimberly]

ody
> of the "armchair philosopher." Here are the first few sentences from the
> article overview.
> >
> > In very general terms, an agent is a being with the capacity to act,
> and ‘agency’ denotes the exercise or manifestation of this capacity. The
> philosophy of action provides us with a standard conception and a standard
> theory of action. The former construes action in terms of intentionality,
> the latter explains the intentionality of action in terms of causation by
> the agent’s mental states and events.
> >
> > _
> > _
> > That seems to me to raise more questions than it answers. At the same
> time, it seems to limit the notion of /agent/ to things that can have
> intentions and mental models.  (To be fair, the article does consider the
> possibility that there can be agents without these properties. But those
> discussions seem relatively tangential.)
> >
> > Apologies for going on so long. Thanks, Frank, for opening this can of
> worms. And thanks to the others who replied so far.
> >
> > __-- Russ Abbott
> > Professor Emeritus, Computer Science
> > California State University, Los Angeles
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 8:33 AM Frank Wimberly  <mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Joe Ramsey, who took over my job.in
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fjob.in=E,1,ZIav2qEBYSxLGqvQX4FG0oAWBKSkcEB9rSfJj-XKpOD9tHOyXksq2ZtBESmsULaSupUC7vk04BazrglG4D-b7AP92McmfQb5aRH7KAKg=1>
> <http://job.in
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fjob.in=E,1,w5L6ESqFsG_k1WjqiiZd-LW-FNq3wwseGECZMZpifzAWAZM_vc-u9gIIo8UiMeTxSEok1oAHiNRRSoxGNvuXGZ1IeBm5Vevc1u6F8lxy4zQ,=1>>
> the Philosophy Department at Carnegie Mellon, posted the following on
> Facebook:
> >
> > I like Neil DeGrasse Tyson a lot, but I saw him give a spirited
> defense of science in which he oddly gave no credit to philosophers at all.
> His straw man philosopher is a dedicated *armchair* philosopher who spins
> theories without paying attention to scientific practice and contributes
> nothing to scientific understanding. He misses that scientists themselves
> are constantly raising obviously philosophical questions and are often
> ill-equipped to think about them clearly. What is the correct
> interpretation of quantum mechanics? What is the right way to think about
> reductionism? Is reductionism the right way to think about science? What is
> the nature of consciousness? Can you explain consciousness in terms of
> neuroscience? Are biological kinds real? What does it even mean to be real?
> Or is realism a red herring; should we be pragmatists instead? Scientists
> raise all kinds of philosophical questions and have ill-informed opinions
> about them. But *philosophers* try to answer
> > them, and scientists do pay attention to the controversies. At least
> the smart ones do.
> >
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Philosophy and Science

[Frank Wimberly]

>I do suspect that the practice and vocation of philosophy is being altered
in the face of things like the development of Category Theory and now LLMs


One of Joe Ramsey's colleagues, Steve Awodey, is working on a reformulation
of the foundations of mathematics based on category theory.


---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 12:03 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> I like the term "epistemic trespass" and generally agree with the idea
> glen promotes in that regard.
>
> My direct experience with *many* experimentalists trained and
> self-selected as physicists or chemists or materials scientists was that
> many of them were excellent engineers, computer systems developers,
> programmers, even mech/elec/hydro/pneumo-techs...   but *mainly* because
> those skills/disciplines were in directs support of what they were trying
> to do and it was a useful shortcut/leverage to be able to do all those
> things for themselves rather than wait for the availability of specialists
> in those areas and then communicate their needs.   Only a *few* theorists
> seemed to have these skills because, perhaps they rarely *needed* that kind
> of support, though some had avocations or hobbies that exercised those
> skills.  I would hazard that more of the theoreticians were more deeply
> interested in the mathematics and philosophical embeddings that their
> avowed day-work implied.  The experimentalists *might* be interested
> (and/or facile) in those things but to some extent by constitution,
> self-selection, utilitarianism were less engaged.
>
> I am glad that Tyson is out there "spreading the faith" to some extent,
> but it doesn't surprise me that he might give philosophers the brush-back
> unthoughtfully.   I feel like Sabine  Hossenfelder, in her very subtle
> style may have done the same thing but with a straight face rather than a
> big grin, even though much of her science-communication is smack dab in the
> middle (IMO) of these epistimic boundaries which is where (IMO) the best
> stuff resides.   I was recently put off by Paul Hawkin's need to
> deprecate/dismiss any talk (or thought?) about consciousness in deference
> to the presumably more formally defineable "intelligence", but I also
> understand that one good way to make progress on technical things is to
> downscope until your reach does not exceed your grasp (by much) and
> Hawkin's experience as a tech entreprenuer (Palm Pilot) suggests that he is
> more better served by staying closer to the engineering and tech end of the
> (multi-dimensional?) spectrum than the philosophical one.   I also
> understand that as one moves out into the yet-more-abstract of philosophy
> and mathematics and semiotics (for example) they seem more likely to be
> laced with BS (and perhaps often are?)... but that ambiguity/difficulty is
> part of what makes it worth spending time in (IMO again).
>
> Not only do we not like our various sacred-cows skewered by others we
> don't even like them being called by unfamiliar names, until you realize
> those names *might* be "terms of endearment"?
>
> I am not familiar with Hawking or Mlodinow's assertions but it triggers my
> associative memory to Russell and Whitehead's  (and others) assertions
> around* Principia Mathematica*.  Or the (yet more) classic* "God is Dead*
> - Neitchze 1882 V. *Neitchze is dead* - God 1900".I do suspect that
> the practice and vocation of philosophy is being altered in the face of
> things like the development of Category Theory and now LLMs ...  in the
> common CS vernacular, *it is not deprecated but is being refactored*?
> On 7/14/23 11:02 AM, glen wrote:
>
> This merely seems like triggered gatekeeping to me. Yeah, sure, working
> philosophers have skills and behaviors working [insert your favorite other
> clique] don't have. But, if it's not already obvious, especially to anyone
> who's had ANY contact with organizations like the SFI, epistemic
> trespassing can be wildly productive. We're all bad at things we're not
> good at. >8^D I haven't seen the Tyson rant that seems to have triggered
> Ramsey. But *leaving someone out* of your cf list is NOT a snub ... despite
> what the hip-and-trendy might claim. It's merely evidence that any
> presentation is limited in space and time. My guess is that if you listen
> to Tyson with a little generosity, you'd hear him make sounds sympathetic
> to the expertise of the peri-science cliques.
>
> Now, Hawking and Mlodinow's explicit claim that philosophy is dead ...
> now, that's a different story.
>
> On 7/14/23 08:33, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> Joe Ramsey, who took over my job.in <http://job.in> <http://job.in> the
&

[FRIAM] Philosophy and Science

[Frank Wimberly]

Joe Ramsey, who took over my job.in the Philosophy Department at Carnegie
Mellon, posted the following on Facebook:

I like Neil DeGrasse Tyson a lot, but I saw him give a spirited defense of
science in which he oddly gave no credit to philosophers at all. His straw
man philosopher is a dedicated *armchair* philosopher who spins theories
without paying attention to scientific practice and contributes nothing to
scientific understanding. He misses that scientists themselves are
constantly raising obviously philosophical questions and are often
ill-equipped to think about them clearly. What is the correct
interpretation of quantum mechanics? What is the right way to think about
reductionism? Is reductionism the right way to think about science? What is
the nature of consciousness? Can you explain consciousness in terms of
neuroscience? Are biological kinds real? What does it even mean to be real?
Or is realism a red herring; should we be pragmatists instead? Scientists
raise all kinds of philosophical questions and have ill-informed opinions
about them. But *philosophers* try to answer them, and scientists do pay
attention to the controversies. At least the smart ones do.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [FRIAM] McCarthy v Peirce

[Frank Wimberly]

Nick,

Would the claim that there are more rational numbers (fractions, loosely
speaking) than integers be an example of the common experience of the world?

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Jul 10, 2023, 11:38 AM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
>
> Jon Z and Frank have me reading Cormac McCarthy.  I have started with his
> last book, Stella Maris  (?Star of the Sea?).  It is the dialogue that
> each of us has always wished we had with our psychiatrist . It is witty,
> often funny, makes lots of references to Los Alamos, is always engaging,
> and sometimes deep.  I am enjoying it and may have to read it a second
> time.
>
> In the following lines, the patient character expresses an opinion on the
> central issue of Pragmat[ic]ism.
>
>  *Patient:] …The world you live in is shored some up by a collection of
> agreements.  Is that something you think about?  The hope is that the truth
> of the world somehow lies in the common experience of it.  Of course the
> history of science and mathematics and even philosophy is a good bit at
> odds with this notion.  Innovation and discovery by definition war against
> the common understanding.  One should be wary.  What do you think? [pp
> 91-2]*
>
> I am not going to comment.  I just thought you might like to have the
> quote to mull over.
>
> Nick
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Re: [FRIAM] Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube

[Frank Wimberly]

As a senior at Berkeley I took a course in integration.  It was all about
Lebesgue measure and integration, Fubini's theorem etc.  We didn't
calculate the integral of any function arising from physics.  That's for
sophomores and they can look the integrals up in tables.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Jul 3, 2023, 9:32 AM glen  wrote:

> What do you think "integrate" means?
>
> On 7/3/23 08:28, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> > BEGIN HARRUMPH!
> >
> > Just so's you know, I did write:
> >
> > *" And for some reason, the path taken by the object through space will
> integrate this difference across the distance between any two points "*
> > *
> > *
> > But never doubt the capacity of some group of experts, when challenged
> to make sense of themselves, to congeal around some picky point of
> language.  And yes, this is me, saying that.(};-)]
> >
> > And why do we keep calling it by it/s cult name, rather than calling it
> what it is?  The difference between the energy of a moving object conveyed
> by its velocity and that conveyed by its position in a field. If you want
> jargon,  why not just call it Ev-Ep.
> >
> > And yet, nobody tackles the basic question.  Why on earth would E in the
> v-Ep be something that every moving object in the universe tries to
> accomplish.
> >
> > END HARRUMPH!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 2:17 AM Stephen Guerin <
> stephen.gue...@simtable.com <mailto:stephen.gue...@simtable.com>> wrote:
> >
> > The Action is the integral of the Lagrangian along the whole path,
> not just a single instant.
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 2, 2023, 9:12 PM Nicholas Thompson <
> thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > So the difference is at a positive max when the ball hits the
> ground and at a negative maximum when the ball reaches its highest
> altitude?  So how am I to understand positive and negative?vectors?
> >
> > Instantaneious Action is at a minimum when the two terms are
> equal?
> >
> > I have no intuitive sense of what is going on here.
> >
> > But thanks for trying, Frank.
> >
> > N
> >
> >
> >
> > N
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 2, 2023 at 12:27 PM Nicholas Thompson <
> thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Frank,
> >
> > Thanks SO  MUCH for forwarding this to me.  To any other
> defrocked english majors on Friam, who have listened to these guys blather
> on about LaGrangians for all these years,  I highly, HIGHLY recommend the
> video. Pretty short, AND, you might possibly, conceivably understand Steve
> Guerin when you  get to the end.   Yeah.  Really.
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > -- Forwarded message -
> > From: *Frank Wimberly*  wimber...@gmail.com>>
> > Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 2:53 PM
> > Subject: Fwd: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The
> Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
> > To: Nicholas Thompson  thompnicks...@gmail.com>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Frank C. Wimberly
> > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> > Santa Fe, NM 87505
> >
> > 505 670-9918
> > Santa Fe, NM
> >
> > -- Forwarded message -
> > From: *Frank Wimberly*  wimber...@gmail.com>>
> > Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 12:51 PM
> > Subject: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The
> Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
> > To: Thompson, Nicholas  nickthomp...@earthlink.net>>, Barry MacKichan <
> barry.mackic...@mackichan.com <mailto:barry.mackic...@mackichan.com>>
> >
> >
> > https://youtu.be/UuqpCBZoX3M <https://youtu.be/UuqpCBZoX3M>
> >
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] bespoke turbulence

[Frank Wimberly]

We were talking about related questions in Virtual Friam today.  Were you
lurking?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 5:26 PM Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> I was going to post the University of Chicago press release,
> https://phys.org/news/2023-06-tempest-teacup-physicists-breakthrough-turbulence.html,
> but let it slide until this other article turned up,
> https://phys.org/news/2023-06-approach-properties-turbulence.html, the
> original report is paywalled at
> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-023-02052-0 with a paywalled
> editorial comment https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-023-02054-y.
>
> Oh, and there's also https://arxiv.org/abs/2211.00771.
>
> So you put your fluid in a cubic reservoir with a vortex ring gun at each
> corner of the cube aimed at the center of the cube.  You can make free
> floating blobs of turbulence in the center of the reservoir by shooting
> combinations of vortex rings.  Vary the combinations of vortex rings and
> you vary the properties of the turbulent blob.  So for whatever varieties
> of turbulence you can synthesize and instrument, you now have an analog
> computer for finding properties and calibrating your digital simulations.
>
> -- rec --
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Re: [FRIAM] Virtual Friam

[Frank Wimberly]

Excellent.  People often ask, "Is Nick going to come?"

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Jun 27, 2023, 7:16 PM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> Thanks Frank.  I will look in at some point.  N
>
> On Tue, Jun 20, 2023 at 11:58 PM Frank Wimberly 
> wrote:
>
>> Because of a conflict I won't be able to start Thursday's meeting until
>> about 10:00 MDT (Santa Fe time).  It's possible that Stephen might start it
>> earlier but it will definitely start by 10.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [FRIAM] I am not Unique

[Frank Wimberly]

Thanks, Russ.  I posted that because I've been bugging certain Friam
attendees about why they travel so much.  I say there's no place that I'd
rather be than Santa Fe so I tend to stay here.

It's not that I haven't traveled.  I remember being moved when I stood at
the place where Thomas Becket was murdered in Canterbury Cathedral; there
was nobody else there at that moment.  I was amused that the waiters in
hotels in London would reply, "Thank you very much, sir" when I thanked
them.  I was being a tourist then.

In the mid-nineties my wife and I traveled to Mexico several times.  I like
Mexicans and they like speaking Spanish to Gringos.  Some of those trips
were for the purpose of cultivating relationships to help with our wish to
adopt a Mexican child.  I believe that in Mexico more than in some other
places whom you know affects what you can do.  There were 90 adoptions by
US couples in Mexico that year (1997) while there were several thousand in
each of Russia and China.  I didn't feel like a tourist during those trips.

Our daughter Flor, her husband and kids are all in our house right now.
They live in Santa Fe near the Airport.

Frank
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Jun 24, 2023, 4:49 PM Russ Abbott  wrote:

> Frank, Thanks for the link.
>
> Agnes Callard, the author of the article, sneers at tourists who visit
> Paris in order to visit the Louvre in order to see the Mona Lisa (and then
> spend 45 seconds looking at it)--because that's what one does in Paris. But
> presumably, Callard would find it perfectly acceptable to visit Paris in
> order to visit the Louvre in order to see the Mona Lisa, and then spend
> hours examining Da Vinci's brush strokes.
>
> What's the difference between these two kinds of activities? Callard
> quotes Emerson, who is not critical of "a person who travels when his
> 'necessities' or 'duties' demand it. Nor does Emerson object to traversing
> great distances 'for the purpose of art, of study, and benevolence,'” as in
> the case of the student of DaVinci's painting technique. Here's a clue.
> Callard defines "tourism" as the kind of travel that aims at the
> interesting—and, if Emerson and company are right, misses."
>
> In other words, one will not find "the interesting" by going in search of
> it. The same goes for happiness. One will not find happiness by going in
> search of it. These are both consequences of other activities and make no
> sense as stand-alone goals.
>
> -- Russ Abbott
> Professor Emeritus, Computer Science
> California State University, Los Angeles
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 2:13 PM Frank Wimberly 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-weekend-essay/the-case-against-travel
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
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[FRIAM] I am not Unique

[Frank Wimberly]

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-weekend-essay/the-case-against-travel

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
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[FRIAM] AI and Carnegie Mellon

[Frank Wimberly]

https://fb.watch/lktFTRI0rF/?mibextid=CDWPTG



---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
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[FRIAM] Virtual Friam

[Frank Wimberly]

Because of a conflict I won't be able to start Thursday's meeting until
about 10:00 MDT (Santa Fe time).  It's possible that Stephen might start it
earlier but it will definitely start by 10.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [FRIAM] Best Cormac McCarthy novels

[Frank Wimberly]

I wrote McCarthy a letter in which i told him that my great-grandfather was
killed in a gunfight right on the Mexican border in 1911.  He wrote back a
said he feared that the history of the West would never be written.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 11:29 AM Gary Schiltz 
wrote:

> I read perhaps two thirds of Blood Meridian a few years ago. My memory
> is a little hazy about it now, but I just remember it feeling a little
> "disjointed", and quite bloody and violent (unnecessarily so, IMO). I
> might give it another go someday. Meanwhile, perhaps I'll try reading
> The Crossing on Frank's recommendation.
>
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 7:02 AM Frank Wimberly 
> wrote:
> >
> > Blood Meridian is his masterpiece but I enjoyed reading The Crossing
> more.
> >
> > ---
> > Frank C. Wimberly
> > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> > Santa Fe, NM 87505
> >
> > 505 670-9918
> > Santa Fe, NM
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 1:29 AM Jochen Fromm  wrote:
> >>
> >> Cormac McCarthy died yesterday in Santa Fe where he lived for the last
> 30 years. Douglas Preston lives in Santa Fe too. There must be something in
> Santa Fe which attracts good writers :-) What's your favorite McCarthy
> novel?
> >>
> https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/jun/13/cormac-mccarthy-dead-novelist
> >>
> >> -J.
> >>
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Re: [FRIAM] Best Cormac McCarthy novels

[Frank Wimberly]

Blood Meridian is his masterpiece but I enjoyed reading The Crossing more.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 1:29 AM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> Cormac McCarthy died yesterday in Santa Fe where he lived for the last 30
> years. Douglas Preston lives in Santa Fe too. There must be something in
> Santa Fe which attracts good writers :-) What's your favorite McCarthy
> novel?
> https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/jun/13/cormac-mccarthy-dead-novelist
>
> -J.
>
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Re: [FRIAM] [EXT] New Mexico SNOTEL Santa Fe (922) (05P09S ) (PST) Daily series for wateryear=2023

[Frank Wimberly]

>From what I hear from the weather people it will be a while before we see
any more rain in Santa Fe.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Jun 8, 2023, 3:25 PM  wrote:

> John,
>
>
>
> Well, in MA, we are living under the third day of unpredicted rain.  But
> it’s not a monsoon.  What defines a monsoon is a weakness in the
> subtropical high pressure regime that allows moisture to flood northward
> over a heated continent.   The new Mexico “monsoon”  is supposed tostart in
> May and June in Mexico and move northward, arriving in August   June is
> supposed to be hot and dry.
>
>
>
> I suspect that some  mechanism other than the classic “monsoon”is
> operating now. The weather people like to call any sustained period of
> rainy weather in NM a monsoon, which I think is crap.  Hence the “Joon
> Nonsoon.”
>
>
>
> nick
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *John Kennison
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 8, 2023 3:50 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] [EXT] New Mexico SNOTEL Santa Fe (922) (05P09S )
> (PST) Daily series for wateryear=2023
>
>
>
> Is that the Santa Fe Nonsoon or the Massachusetts Nonsoon
> --
>
> *From:* Friam  on behalf of Nicholas Thompson <
> thompnicks...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 7, 2023 8:56 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* [EXT] [FRIAM] New Mexico SNOTEL Santa Fe (922) (05P09S ) (PST)
> Daily series for wateryear=2023
>
>
>
>
> https://wcc.sc.egov.usda.gov/nwcc/view?intervalType=+View+Current+=WYGRAPH=Daily=plot=922=WATERYEAR
>
> Sent from Mail  for
> Windows
>
>
>
> The Joon Nonsoon continues.
>
>
>
> N
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Re: [FRIAM] Radical Empiricism

[Frank Wimberly]

As one of the few, if not the only, person who has been a full time
employee of a philosophy department for multiple years, I am quick to
defend my former colleagues.  Read "Actual Causation and Thought
Experiments" by Glymour and Wimberly in J. K. Campbell, M. O'Rourke & H. S.
Silverstein (eds.), Causation and Explanation. MIT Press

You don't have to read thousands, or even hundreds, of pages to be able to
grok that paper.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Jun 4, 2023, 7:30 PM David Eric Smith  wrote:

> So there’s a rather concrete way in which one can imagine ChatGPT’s being
> particularly useful as a time-saver.
>
> I have heard it said (and find it persuasive), that philosophy is
> different from physics because what philosophers want to do and settle for
> being is different from that for physicists.
>
> A physicist can pick up F = ma and start from there to get something done.
>
> Each philosopher is, in a sense, a new beginning of the universe, and you
> are expected to read thousands of pages of his composition to be permitted
> to engage with him. That is a good barrier to exclude pretty-much-everbody
> from most conversations.
>
> But there are specific topics on which engaging with this group is a game
> of whack-a-mole, and it would be _so_ satisfying to catch that damned mole
> far enough out of the hole to pin him down to the board for once.
>
> It is on this point:
>
> Summarizing what, as Marcus rightly says, as been repeated 10^n times
> before, CGTP quotes:
>
> At the core of radical empiricism is the concept of "pure experience."
> According to James, pure experience refers to the immediate, unmediated
> apprehension of reality, devoid of any conceptual or interpretative
> filters. It involves experiencing the world as it is, without imposing
> preconceived notions or theories onto the experience.
> What the HELL does anyone think this is supposed to refer to?  I am not
> asking whether it actually does refer to anything, but rather what anyone
> believes he is saying by it.
>
> And I can ask that in a rather concrete way.  Were James to engage with
> Husserl, would he claim that the access to the “immediate apprehension” is
> by way of the same portal as Husserl’s epoche?
>
> I ask because they set themselves up to make a particular style of
> assertion.
>
> By analogy, we have seen that human bodies can do things like Amanars and
> any of the 4 Bileses (which should have been 5, and would have been were it
> not for COVID).  But that doesn’t mean every human body can do any of
> them.  There is rather a lot of specific training that goes into becoming
> one of the bodies that can do any of this.
>
> The various “internal” experience-focused philosophers present these
> things as doable, but technical and particular and requiring training.
>
> But if you then ask what that is about, you get either a demand to follow
> several thousand pages in each person’s formulation, or the kind of cloudy
> motivational life-coach speech that almost all of the CGPT summary is
> composed of.  (Reminds me of something I once heard said of chimp speech:
> if you aren’t there working with them, you cannot anticipate how
> mind-numbingly repetitive it is).
>
> So rather than asking “what it is” (the skill or whatever), I can ask “If
> they were arguing with each other, would they even assert to each other,
> each with his supposed privileged appreciation of the mysteries, assert or
> deny that they are referring to the same thing.
>
> This might allow us to not have to approach the full body of philosophical
> literature as if each corpus were Sui generis.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 5, 2023, at 2:43 AM, Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>
> ChatGPT now allows sharing conversations. I've asked it about William
> James book "Essays in Radical Empiricism"
> https://chat.openai.com/share/375aef4e-a8d6-467e-8061-bd85b341c46b
> 
>
> -J.
>
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Re: [FRIAM] crackpots and privilege

[Frank Wimberly]

Understood

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Jun 2, 2023, 10:47 AM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> Frank,
>
> So is sex, if you think about it.  Yet, .
>
> On Fri, May 26, 2023 at 3:20 PM Frank Wimberly 
> wrote:
>
>> My grandsons' girlfriends (twenty-somethings) say that they think babies
>> are disgusting.  I hope they change their minds.  In any case, what does a
>> shortage of babies have to do with AI?
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Thu, May 25, 2023, 12:48 PM Roger Critchlow  wrote:
>>
>>> Google news decided to surface an article from Fortune today.  It's
>>> headlined "Society's refusal to have enough babies is what will save it
>>> from the existential threat of A. I., Eric Schmidt says".  The headline is
>>> accompanied by a very serious head shot of Eric.  Nice try, Google, but
>>> you're not sucking me down that rabbit hole.
>>>
>>> Meanwhile, someone apparently read my mind about the rationality of
>>> disaster prepping and wrote an epic novel about it 40 years ago in
>>> Catalan.  The Garden of the Seven Twilights by Miquel de Palol is available
>>> in English translation and as an ebook on overdrive.com at your local
>>> library.  The narrator crosses refugee swamped Barcelona to check on his
>>> mom and gets sent off by her to a McMansion'ed medieval monastery high in
>>> the Pyrenees where the elite are amusing themselves with stories while
>>> awaiting the resolution of the first war of entertainment.  Lots of stories
>>> about themselves and their friends and acquaintances.
>>>
>>> -- rec --
>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>>
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Re: [FRIAM] crackpots and privilege

[Frank Wimberly]

Our 2 year old granddaughter is at our place frequently.  It's
inconceivable that she could live independently.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, May 31, 2023, 8:13 AM glen  wrote:

> Yeah, that was a great show. I suppose I can see "mostly independent"
> humans at around 10 years ... maybe even down to 5, I guess. But 2? That
> seems extreme. Of course, I'm ignorant of the anthropology. Maybe 2 year
> olds used to be much more coordinated, perhaps taller, with a better
> developed cortex? I thought there was a spike in pruning circa 4 years? I
> suppose, just like height and other features, that pruning spike might move
> around depending on environmental pressure.
>
> On 5/31/23 06:38, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > There's also "Hanna" (2011) and the series that followed.
> >
> >> On May 31, 2023, at 6:24 AM, glen  wrote:
> >>
> >> What?!? The idea of a gaggle of toddlers running around hunting and
> cooking, say, boar for supper is astounding. Even Children of the Corn were
> older than 2. 8^D
> >>
> >>> On 5/31/23 06:19, Prof David West wrote:
> >>> "the extended juvenile development of humans," is an artifact of
> modern industrial society. For "de-domesticated humans" development to,
> mostly, independent existence was only marginally longer than that of other
> large mammals. Roughly two years for humans, 18 months for elephants and
> bears and large cats,12 months  for a host of other species.
> >>> davew
>  On Wed, May 31, 2023, at 5:34 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
>  Eric's musing on the character of the saving remnant reminded me of
> Ötzi, the Tyrolean ice mummy, as portrayed in
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceman_(2017_film) <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceman_(2017_film)>.
> 
>  Some commentators note the western movie tropes, but when Ötzi gears
> up to chase down the pillagers of his family settlement, he also straps on
> the infant who was the sole survivor of the pillaging.  Of course he drops
> the kid off with the first available woman he meets.
> 
>  Shades of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_Wolf_and_Cub <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_Wolf_and_Cub>, the samurai with a baby
> carriage.  But as I remember, the cub became part of the lone wolf's
> arsenal.
> 
>  So, when you posit a de-domesticated human, what happens to the
> extended juvenile development of humans?  Babies and toddlers are going to
> remain domestic concerns no matter how much bourgeois mediocrity you eject
> from your morality, no?  And I guess burnt out philosophers with mental
> health issues will be domestic issues, too, even if they were once supermen?
> 
>  -- rec --
> 
> > On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 10:04 AM Marcus Daniels <
> mar...@snoutfarm.com > wrote:
> 
>  "What do I think the saving remnant will be?  I imagine people
> who lost all the epigenetic marks associated with domestication, and took
> on hormone profiles more like chimps.  Or “born this way” to PTSD."
> 
>  In stories like Elysium, the saving remnant survives.  Why
> doesn't popular science fiction consider the future in which only Elysium
> endures?We have lots of experience on earth making sure that
> communities are partitioned by socioeconomic status.All of the saving
> remnants I see around here are homeless or hovering near death due to use
> of heroin and fentanyl.   The deer, however, happily munch on my front yard
> plants.
> 
>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium_(film) <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium_(film)>
>  -Original Message-
>  From: Friam  friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of glen
>  Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 7:27 AM
>  To: friam@redfish.com 
>  Subject: Re: [FRIAM] crackpots and privilege
> 
>  "Somehow not the domain of peace and spirituality that I think
> first-worlders like to project onto first-nationers, and which might even
> be true for the first-nationers, since they are also from a milder time by
> a lot than a large extinction."
> 
>  IDK, man. Are wild animals different from us in any significant
> way? Are they actually never lazy, never unvigilant, etc? Or, perhaps, is
> the attribution of vigilance (and hence never unvigilance) an illusion born
> of othering? A standard whipping post for me is this "Are you a cat person
> or a dog person" cocktail party ice breaker. Admitting the false dichotomy,
> dog people tend to think of cats as non-social, selfish, blahblah. Cat
> people tend to think of dogs as slobbery, vapid, etc. It's complete
> nonsense born of arbitrary delusions.
> 
>  But of course, there is something to be said of the built
> environment. It would be difficult for a human reared in a city to navigate
> the Mongolian desert. But is that difference any greater than plopping a
> 

[FRIAM] Ezra Klein on AI and the Internet

[Frank Wimberly]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/28/opinion/artificial-intelligence-thinking-minds-concentration.html

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [FRIAM] crackpots and privilege

[Frank Wimberly]

My grandsons' girlfriends (twenty-somethings) say that they think babies
are disgusting.  I hope they change their minds.  In any case, what does a
shortage of babies have to do with AI?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, May 25, 2023, 12:48 PM Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> Google news decided to surface an article from Fortune today.  It's
> headlined "Society's refusal to have enough babies is what will save it
> from the existential threat of A. I., Eric Schmidt says".  The headline is
> accompanied by a very serious head shot of Eric.  Nice try, Google, but
> you're not sucking me down that rabbit hole.
>
> Meanwhile, someone apparently read my mind about the rationality of
> disaster prepping and wrote an epic novel about it 40 years ago in
> Catalan.  The Garden of the Seven Twilights by Miquel de Palol is available
> in English translation and as an ebook on overdrive.com at your local
> library.  The narrator crosses refugee swamped Barcelona to check on his
> mom and gets sent off by her to a McMansion'ed medieval monastery high in
> the Pyrenees where the elite are amusing themselves with stories while
> awaiting the resolution of the first war of entertainment.  Lots of stories
> about themselves and their friends and acquaintances.
>
> -- rec --
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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[FRIAM] St John's not Open

[Frank Wimberly]

I'm pretty sure St John's Coffee shop is closed today.  I will go to
Downtown Subscription.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [FRIAM] Glasses in Santa Fe

[Frank Wimberly]

Dr Javid at Eye Associates.  They work seamlessly with Medicare.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, May 14, 2023, 9:16 AM Owen Densmore  wrote:

> Hi! I need new glasses and wonder if any of us have a suggestion for a
> good optometrist in Santa Fe. Thanks!
>
> -- Owen
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Re: [FRIAM] Call blockers

[Frank Wimberly]

Android Pixel cell phone.  It's nice to hear your voice, Nick.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 10:50 PM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> Frank
>
> Landline? Or have you given up on that old stuff.
>
> n
>
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 1:24 PM Frank Wimberly 
> wrote:
>
>> My Google phone warns me of suspected spam calls.  When it does so I have
>> the choice of "Screening" the call, blocking it, or answering it.  If I
>> select "Screen" the caller hears
>>
>> "Hi.  The person you are calling is using a Google screening service.
>> Please say your name and the reason you are calling.  The person will get a
>> recording and transcript of what you say."
>>
>> Or words to that effect.  Almost nobody leaves a message.
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 12:47 PM Nicholas Thompson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Phellow Phriammers,
>>>
>>> After having my phone completely tied up by robocalls during some
>>> medical troubles, I put out cold hard cash for the CPR Call Blocker
>>> recommended by my carrier.  I have now blocked 70 numbers, and new ones
>>> come in daily, although  the rate has substantially decreased.  I have to
>>> say, pressing that big red block button is very satisfying.  It also has a
>>> mass-blocking function for voip-rogue calls, name withheld calls, private
>>> caller calls,and any area code you take a dislike to.
>>>  Still I have questions.
>>>
>>> 1.  Has anybody else tried this device?
>>> 2.  Do you fully understand the navigation functions
>>> 3.  Is it working for you?
>>> 4.   Do you have any wisdom to share?
>>>
>>> I  chatted up one of the callers.  I suggested that at a time of full
>>> employment, perhaps a bright guy like him might get a better job.  He
>>> replied that he was being paid quite well for his efforts!  Apparently the
>>> number of any fool who answers their phone is worth $7.
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
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>>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Call blockers

[Frank Wimberly]

My Google phone warns me of suspected spam calls.  When it does so I have
the choice of "Screening" the call, blocking it, or answering it.  If I
select "Screen" the caller hears

"Hi.  The person you are calling is using a Google screening service.
Please say your name and the reason you are calling.  The person will get a
recording and transcript of what you say."

Or words to that effect.  Almost nobody leaves a message.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 12:47 PM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> Phellow Phriammers,
>
> After having my phone completely tied up by robocalls during some medical
> troubles, I put out cold hard cash for the CPR Call Blocker recommended by
> my carrier.  I have now blocked 70 numbers, and new ones come in daily,
> although  the rate has substantially decreased.  I have to say, pressing
> that big red block button is very satisfying.  It also has a mass-blocking
> function for voip-rogue calls, name withheld calls, private caller
> calls,and any area code you take a dislike to.
>  Still I have questions.
>
> 1.  Has anybody else tried this device?
> 2.  Do you fully understand the navigation functions
> 3.  Is it working for you?
> 4.   Do you have any wisdom to share?
>
> I  chatted up one of the callers.  I suggested that at a time of full
> employment, perhaps a bright guy like him might get a better job.  He
> replied that he was being paid quite well for his efforts!  Apparently the
> number of any fool who answers their phone is worth $7.
>
> Nick
>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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[FRIAM] Fwd: Updated invitation: ML/Duolingo Seminar - David Chalmers - NSH 4305 @ Tue Apr 18, 2023 10:30am - 11:30am (EDT) (ml-semi...@cs.cmu.edu)

[Frank Wimberly]

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DTEND;TZID=America/New_York:20230418T113000
DTSTAMP:20230416T212628Z
ORGANIZER;CN=Machine Learning Department:mailto:j8btmpvj10p4vttp1lttnsnubs@
 group.calendar.google.com
UID:5eclecb1ig9akd2jofakd8mh8k_r20220503t143...@google.com
ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=INDIVIDUAL;ROLE=REQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=NEEDS-ACTION;RSVP=
 TRUE;CN=ml-core-facu...@cs.cmu.edu;X-NUM-GUESTS=0:mailto:ml-core-faculty@cs
 .cmu.edu
ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=INDIVIDUAL;ROLE=REQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=NEEDS-ACTION;RSVP=
 TRUE;CN=ml-semi...@cs.cmu.edu;X-NUM-GUESTS=0:mailto:ml-semi...@cs.cmu.edu
ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=INDIVIDUAL;ROLE=REQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=NEEDS-ACTION;RSVP=
 TRUE;CN=ml-affiliated-facu...@cs.cmu.edu;X-NUM-GUESTS=0:mailto:ml-affiliate
 d-facu...@cs.cmu.edu
ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=INDIVIDUAL;ROLE=REQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=ACCEPTED;RSVP=TRUE
 ;CN=arist...@andrew.cmu.edu;X-NUM-GUESTS=0:mailto:arist...@andrew.cmu.edu
ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=INDIVIDUAL;ROLE=REQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=ACCEPTED;RSVP=TRUE
 ;CN=vsmith2...@gmail.com;X-NUM-GUESTS=0:mailto:vsmith2...@gmail.com
ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=INDIVIDUAL;ROLE=REQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=ACCEPTED;RSVP=TRUE
 ;CN=mbal...@andrew.cmu.edu;X-NUM-GUESTS=0:mailto:mbal...@andrew.cmu.edu
X-MICROSOFT-CDO-OWNERAPPTID:-1726106448
RECURRENCE-ID;TZID=America/New_York:20230418T103000
CREATED:20220418T192730Z
DESCRIPTION:Talk Info: 10:30am in NSH 4305  Ti
 tle:  Can Large Language Models Understand?Abstract:There has r
 ecently been controversy about whether large language models can be said to
  understand anything\, to use language with meaning\, and so on.  I'll addr
 ess a few issues: (1) is sensory grounding required for meaning and underst
 anding? (2) are large language models just "stochastic parrots" that lack w
 orld-models?  (3) what is understanding such that a large language model mi
 ght have or lack it?https://cmu.zoom.us/j/92960646
 977?pwd=SUlWcFE2cEIvWCt2cDZFL0hvemoxdz09">Zoom Meeting Link
LAST-MODIFIED:20230416T212627Z
LOCATION:NSH 4305
SEQUENCE:0
STATUS:CONFIRMED
SUMMARY:ML/Duolingo Seminar - David Chalmers - NSH 4305
TRANSP:OPAQUE
END:VEVENT
END:VCALENDAR


invite.ics
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Re: [FRIAM] myth of the objective

[Frank Wimberly]

My 23 year old grandson is developing Call of Duty.  He's a developer at
Activision.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Apr 7, 2023, 11:02 AM glen  wrote:

>
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/apr/06/forbes-30-under-30-tech-finance-prison
>
> "that's not fraud; that's hustle!"
>
> With all the reactionary backlash against "woke", it's no wonder we see
> something similar with "hustle". Just the other day, I was talking to a
> relatively woke beertender whose day job is paraeducator (?! I think
> "peri-educator" would be a better word). And he lamented the young'uns'
> tendency to clock out if/when they got tired. Yet those same young'uns
> would consistently complain about not having enough money ... not enough
> hustle, I guess. They're all prolly sittin' on the couch playing Call of
> Duty, smokin' dope, and eatin' bonbons. Kids these days, amiright?
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] AI Musings

[Frank Wimberly]

The real numbers are an uncountable set.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Apr 3, 2023, 3:14 PM Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> I'm just noodling around.
>
> So it's a collection of innumerable elements which can't be a mathematical
> set, so you can't use the mathematics founded on sets to analyze it, so
> what's the paper doing using set based mathematics to count the number of
> elements in M_t?
>
> -- rec --
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 1, 2023 at 12:57 PM Stephen Guerin <
> stephen.gue...@simtable.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2023, 8:29 AM Roger Critchlow  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I tried to get Bard to talk with me about the adjacent possible (AP) the
>>> other day.  It agreed that the AP could not be represented as a
>>> mathematical set, but it continued to talk about the AP as if it were a
>>> set.  So it suggested formulating the AP as a graph, or a tree, or as the
>>> states of a dynamical system.  I pushed for a non-set formalism and it gave
>>> me fuzzy sets.  I guess I have to try harder.
>>>
>>
>> Roger, Cool. Can you say more about a different formalization you're
>> after?
>>
>> Stu's Theory Of The Adjacent Possible is currently formalized with an
>> exponentially increasing set
>>
>> https://arxiv.org/abs/2204.14115#
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] AI Musings

[Frank Wimberly]

I agree, Russ.  I taught at Pitt and Carnegie Mellon for 25 years or so.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 2:42 PM Russ Abbott  wrote:

> Look at all the online course companies such as Coursera. They haven't
> replaced college teachers. I suspect that one reason is that online courses
> have no person-to-person mechanism to help students live up to the
> discipline necessary to do well in a course. As a retired and somewhat
> cynical college professor, my experience has been that the top priority of
> too many students is to get through their courses with minimal effort. Most
> students need to know that a living person is aware of how much effort they
> are putting into their work. Without the ongoing presence of a watchful and
> interested person-in-authority, too many students find it too easy to let
> their courses slide.
>
> -- Russ Abbott
> Professor Emeritus, Computer Science
> California State University, Los Angeles
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 9:00 AM Grant Holland 
> wrote:
>
>> Frank,
>>
>> I'm wondering why no-one seems to raise the specter that AI could start
>> replacing management personnel. And I’m including CxO’s here; because I’m
>> not convinced that CxO-ing is rocket science or quantum mechanics. Think of
>> the billions saved. After all, if machine learning cannot get good at
>> making better decisions than humans, and constantly improving at it, I
>> would be very surprised.
>>
>> Grant
>>
>> On Mar 30, 2023, at 8:58 AM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>>
>> Not particularly relevant to your main point but Raj Reddy, close
>> colleague of Newell and Simon, once said, "It is easier use AI to replace a
>> college professor than a bulldozer operator" or words tho that effect.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 8:50 AM Prof David West 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The "AI Pause" made national TV news yesterday (long after those on this
>>> list noted and reacted to it) and that made me revisit a theme I have
>>> thought about since Newell, Simon, and Shaw created Logic Theorist.
>>>
>>> Advocates take a caricature (perhaps too strong a word) of human
>>> intelligence, write a program to emulate it and declare the program
>>> "intelligent."
>>>
>>> The original conceit: true intelligence was the kind of thinking
>>> exhibited by college professors and scientists. Almost trivial to emulate
>>> (Newell and Simon programmed Logic Theorist on 3x5 cards before Shaw was
>>> able to implement on a computer).
>>>
>>> Maybe reading—correctly converting text to sound, like a child—was more
>>> indicative of human intelligence, and Sejnowski created NetTalk. that,
>>> somewhat eerily, produced discoveries of sounds, and errors, and achieved
>>> near perfect ability to "read." Listen to the tapes sometime and contrast
>>> them with tapes of a human child learning to read. Of course, comprehension
>>> of what was read did not make the cut.
>>>
>>> State of the art improved dramatically and the caricatures of human
>>> intelligence are more sophisticated and the achievements of the programs
>>> more interesting.
>>>
>>> But, it seems to me there is still a critical gap. We can program an AI
>>> (or let one learn) to fly a commercial jet as well or better than a human
>>> pilot—BUT, could even the best of of breed of such an AI pull a
>>> Shullenberger and land on the Hudson River?
>>>
>>> Another factor behind the "hysteria" (sorry for the sexism) over AIs
>>> causing massive unemployment is a corollary to the caricaturization of
>>> human intelligence. Since the Industrial Revolution, and certainly since
>>> the age of Taylorism and the rise of automation; work itself has been
>>> dehumanizing.
>>>
>>> If you define human work in terms of what can be done by a computer then
>>> it is tautological to claim an AI is intelligent because it can perform
>>> human work.
>>>
>>> I was contemplating ChatAIs and quickly realized that my
>>> profession—college professor—was one at immense risk of replacement. I
>>> would bet good money that a ChatAI could produce, and maybe deliver,
>>> lectures f

Re: [FRIAM] AI Musings

[Frank Wimberly]

Not particularly relevant to your main point but Raj Reddy, close colleague
of Newell and Simon, once said, "It is easier use AI to replace a college
professor than a bulldozer operator" or words tho that effect.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 8:50 AM Prof David West  wrote:

> The "AI Pause" made national TV news yesterday (long after those on this
> list noted and reacted to it) and that made me revisit a theme I have
> thought about since Newell, Simon, and Shaw created Logic Theorist.
>
> Advocates take a caricature (perhaps too strong a word) of human
> intelligence, write a program to emulate it and declare the program
> "intelligent."
>
> The original conceit: true intelligence was the kind of thinking exhibited
> by college professors and scientists. Almost trivial to emulate (Newell and
> Simon programmed Logic Theorist on 3x5 cards before Shaw was able to
> implement on a computer).
>
> Maybe reading—correctly converting text to sound, like a child—was more
> indicative of human intelligence, and Sejnowski created NetTalk. that,
> somewhat eerily, produced discoveries of sounds, and errors, and achieved
> near perfect ability to "read." Listen to the tapes sometime and contrast
> them with tapes of a human child learning to read. Of course, comprehension
> of what was read did not make the cut.
>
> State of the art improved dramatically and the caricatures of human
> intelligence are more sophisticated and the achievements of the programs
> more interesting.
>
> But, it seems to me there is still a critical gap. We can program an AI
> (or let one learn) to fly a commercial jet as well or better than a human
> pilot—BUT, could even the best of of breed of such an AI pull a
> Shullenberger and land on the Hudson River?
>
> Another factor behind the "hysteria" (sorry for the sexism) over AIs
> causing massive unemployment is a corollary to the caricaturization of
> human intelligence. Since the Industrial Revolution, and certainly since
> the age of Taylorism and the rise of automation; work itself has been
> dehumanizing.
>
> If you define human work in terms of what can be done by a computer then
> it is tautological to claim an AI is intelligent because it can perform
> human work.
>
> I was contemplating ChatAIs and quickly realized that my
> profession—college professor—was one at immense risk of replacement. I
> would bet good money that a ChatAI could produce, and maybe deliver,
> lectures far better than any I created in 30 years teaching. And probably
> most, if not all, of the presentations I made at professional conferences
> over the years.
>
> I am still vain enough to think that some of the papers and books I have
> written are beyond an AI, and certain that no AI could do as well in
> spontaneious Q after a presentation than I.
>
> Bottom line, I still believe that AI can and does equate to HI, only when
> some aspect of HI is ommitted from the equation. This is not essentialism,
> but analogous to the digitization of a sine wave, no matter the finite
> sampling rate, there is always some missing information.
>
> davew
>
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Re: [FRIAM] a little help from my friends

[Frank Wimberly]

Readability is important.  It has implications for maintainability,
modifiability, reusability and other abilities.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 8:09 AM Prof David West  wrote:

> I am keynoting the International Conference on Code Quality on April 22.
> It will be speculative and philosophical, but I would like to know "code
> quality" might mean, is taken for granted to mean, to professional coders.
> I know what it means for this conference, but would like a broader base
> from which to launch my flights of fancy.
>
> davew
>
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Re: [FRIAM] IEEE Milestone celebrating computer graphics history at U of Utah

[Frank Wimberly]

Distinguished graybeards.  I got my PhD in 1978.  Am I as old as that guy??

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Mar 28, 2023, 8:05 AM Barry MacKichan 
wrote:

> Mount Olympus!
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 28, 2023, at 1:24 AM, Guerin, Stephen <
> stephengue...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
> 
> Wow, what a gathering at Utah on Thurs and Friday.
>
> 
>
>
> Left to Right: Alvy Ray Smith, John Warnock, Henri Gouraud, Ed Catmull,
> Henry Fuchs, Martin Newell, Jim Blinn
>
> https://www.price.utah.edu/ieee-milestone-events#ieee-milestone
>
> Youtube recordings
>
> Thursday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUFp6sjKbkE
> Friday AM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzEaM6QAy-4
> Friday PM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui3R1Dlmsk0
>
>
> List of Speakers
>
>- James Blinn, Ph.D., 1978 — Created specular lighting models, bump
>mapping and environment mapping for surface textures in graphical images.
>- Ed Catmull, Ph.D., 1974 — Pioneer in computer animation who
>co-developed RenderMan rendering software. Co-founder of Pixar Animation
>Studios and winner of five Academy Awards.
>- Jim Clark, Ph.D., 1974 — Rebuilt the head-mounted display and 3-D
>wand to see and interact with 3-D graphic spaces. Founder of Netscape and
>Silicon Graphics.
>- Henry Fuchs, Ph.D., 1975 — Innovator in high-performance graphics
>hardware, 3-D medical imaging and head-mounted display and virtual
>environments.
>- Henri Gouraud, Ph.D., 1971 — Created the Gouraud shading method for
>polygon smoothing—a simple rendering method that dramatically improved the
>appearance of 3-D objects.
>- Alan Kay, Ph.D., 1969 — Envisioned the windowing graphical user
>interface at Xerox PARC, which led to the design of Apple MacIntosh and
>Windows computers.
>- Martin Newell, Ph.D., 1975 — Developed procedural modeling for 3-D
>object rendering. Co-developed the Painter’s algorithm for surface
>rendering.
>- Rodney Rougelot — Former president and chief executive officer of
>Salt Lake City-based Evans & Sutherland, which then developed military and
>aviation simulators with 3-D graphics.
>- Robert A. Schumaker — An engineer with Evans & Sutherland who
>conceived a new architecture for rendering complex, high-quality 3-D images
>for its flight simulators.
>- Alvy Ray Smith — Co-founder of Pixar Animation Studios. First
>Director of Computer Graphics for George Lucas’ Lucasfilm.
>- Ivan Sutherland, U Computer Science Professor, 1968-1974 — Inventor
>of Sketchpad, the first interactive graphics program with geometric
>constraints. Co-founded Evans & Sutherland with David Evans.
>- John Warnock, Ph.D., 1969 — Developed the Warnock recursive
>subdivision algorithm for hidden surface elimination. Co-founder of Adobe,
>which developed the Postscript language for desktop publishing and is now
>one of the largest software brands in the world.
>
>
> __
> Stephen Guerin
> Harvard Earth and Planetary Sciences
> Visualization Research and Teaching Lab
> stephengue...@fas.harvard.edu
> mobile: (505) 577-5828
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[FRIAM] Some funny spoofs of LLM fascination

[Frank Wimberly]

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/04/03/upcoming-landmarks-in-artificial-intelligence?utm_source=nl_brand=tny_mailing=TNY_Humor_032723_campaign=aud-dev_medium=email=5bea160d24c17c6adf1d90ff=26657004=auto_captionentrants_content=A_term=TNY_Humor


---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
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[FRIAM] We're at Downtown Subscription

[Frank Wimberly]

They were waxing the floor at St John's.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
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[FRIAM] Sentience

[Frank Wimberly]

I forwarded this link to Nick and he suggested that I send it to the
Group.  I haven't read it thoroughly yet but I like what I've read:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/nicholas-humphreys-beautiful-theory-of-mind?utm_source=nl_brand=tny_mailing=TNY_Daily_031523_campaign=aud-dev_medium=email_term=tny_daily_digest=5bea160d24c17c6adf1d90ff=26657004=03a68c161f5d16347943cf2195691293=806a12bf27a999679e133d98a8068fab3b194723=5a04768fafab49af2104ea98375511d11b19157e125fbac5ef8a7b339af771dd=OIDC_SELECT_ACCOUNT_PAGE=CRMNYR062419


-- 
Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

Research:  https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
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[FRIAM] AI and Weirdness

[Frank Wimberly]

Many of you may have seen this article...

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/12/opinion/chatbots-artificial-intelligence-future-weirdness.html?algo=combo_als_clicks_decay_96_50_ranks=5_id=142=edit_fory_20230313=false_id=761500277_id=87626=for-you=60903300=pool%2F5e7731fa-5316-4a02-a8e4-6b70e6919705=1_id=60903300_id=527980444_id=127691=for-you-email-rotating-opinion_id=03a68c161f5d16347943cf2195691293=0_best_algo

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] ChatGPT and William James

[Frank Wimberly]

If you live with a baby you see that they have knowledge that can't be
based on "data".

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Mar 6, 2023, 2:50 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> How?
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly
> *Sent:* Monday, March 6, 2023 12:50 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] ChatGPT and William James
>
>
>
> >And we humans are different?
>
>
>
> In a word, yes.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 6, 2023, 12:14 PM Nicholas Thompson 
> wrote:
>
> *However, it's important to remember that there are also important
> differences between a large language model and human consciousness. While a
> large language model can generate text that may seem to flow like a stream
> of consciousness, it does not have the same kind of subjective experience
> that humans do, and its output is based solely on statistical patterns in
> the input it has been trained on.*
>
>
>
> And we humans are different?
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 4, 2023 at 11:51 AM Steve Smith  wrote:
>
> Also second EricS's appreciation for having someone else(s) maintain a
> coherent conversation for the myriad ideas that it allows me to explore
> without being central to the maintenance of the thread.   I realize this
> may be almost pure tangent to others, so I rarely expect anyone to take my
> bait unless it is to correct any egregious mis-attributions or
> think-utational fallacies.
>
> Starting with Glen's assertion/suggestion/assumption that there is not
> mind-stuff and body stuff, just body stuff:  I appeal to the general
> abstraction of Emergence and use Russell Standish's example in his "Theory
> of Nothing
> <https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/967936.Theory_Of_Nothing?from_search=true_srp=true=GgXJ0ISQei=1>"
> that a water molecule is not wet... wetness is a property of aggregates of
> water molecules.   I would jump a dozen layers of emergent-bootstrapping
> from there to assert that "mind stuff", if it ever makes sense, is an
> emergent property of "body stuff".   But by analogy would not want to say
> that wetness (and other properties of bulk water molecules) is not strictly
> "molecular dynamics stuff".   And even if one did that, the
> recursion/reduction-ad-absurdum requires that one acknowledge/notice/invoke
> that the properties of any molecule is "emergent" from the elementary
> particles from which it might be composed.
>
>  I think we all believe in free-electrons, protons, neutrons but also
> recognize that *most* of our observed universe is shaped not by *those
> properties* (much less the properties of quarks and gluons or 10d loops of
> abstract things we call strings) but rather by the properties (once again,
> not of molecular dynamics or even chemical reactions) but biological
> functions,  and socio-economic-political functions as well. I *am*
> however, sensitive to the idea that where and how we draw the line between
> mind/body stuff can be important in any given argument, and that sometimes
> dropping that line altogether may be useful?
>
> The above riff on Mind-Stuff v Body-Stuff is really an intro into thoughts
> about how syntax and semantics might bootstrap sequentially.   It feels to
> me that the syntax of one level of abstraction yields an *emergent
> semantics* which in turn becomes the *syntax* of the next "level".I do
> acknowledge that Glen has made some arguments (and references) that are
> against the very abstraction of "levels" and that may well be the hole in
> everything I'm unrolling here, but for the moment, I feel I have a clear
> picture of a POSET of syntax/semantics, if not a full Hierarchy...
>
> This also backs me into the Platonic ideations with all the charms and
> criticisms already dancing as virtual (ideational) particles around
> that.I will go back to reading A Theory of Nothing
> <https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/967936.Theory_Of_Nothing?from_search=true_srp=true=GgXJ0ISQei=1>...
> and try to keep my offerings here under 10 pages each...
>
> On 3/4/23 4:32 AM, Santafe wrote:
>
> It’s helpful to have a conversation being maintained by somebod(ies) else, to 
> which one can be a bystander without the distraction of coming up with 
> contributions to it.  Things can suggest themselves that get pushed out of 
> awareness when one is carrying the discourse and figuring out what to do next 
> within it.
>
>
>
> In reading the b

Re: [FRIAM] ChatGPT and William James

[Frank Wimberly]

>And we humans are different?

In a word, yes.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Mar 6, 2023, 12:14 PM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> *However, it's important to remember that there are also important
> differences between a large language model and human consciousness. While a
> large language model can generate text that may seem to flow like a stream
> of consciousness, it does not have the same kind of subjective experience
> that humans do, and its output is based solely on statistical patterns in
> the input it has been trained on.*
>
>
>
> And we humans are different?
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 4, 2023 at 11:51 AM Steve Smith  wrote:
>
> Also second EricS's appreciation for having someone else(s) maintain a
> coherent conversation for the myriad ideas that it allows me to explore
> without being central to the maintenance of the thread.   I realize this
> may be almost pure tangent to others, so I rarely expect anyone to take my
> bait unless it is to correct any egregious mis-attributions or
> think-utational fallacies.
>
> Starting with Glen's assertion/suggestion/assumption that there is not
> mind-stuff and body stuff, just body stuff:  I appeal to the general
> abstraction of Emergence and use Russell Standish's example in his "Theory
> of Nothing
> "
> that a water molecule is not wet... wetness is a property of aggregates of
> water molecules.   I would jump a dozen layers of emergent-bootstrapping
> from there to assert that "mind stuff", if it ever makes sense, is an
> emergent property of "body stuff".   But by analogy would not want to say
> that wetness (and other properties of bulk water molecules) is not strictly
> "molecular dynamics stuff".   And even if one did that, the
> recursion/reduction-ad-absurdum requires that one acknowledge/notice/invoke
> that the properties of any molecule is "emergent" from the elementary
> particles from which it might be composed.
>
>  I think we all believe in free-electrons, protons, neutrons but also
> recognize that *most* of our observed universe is shaped not by *those
> properties* (much less the properties of quarks and gluons or 10d loops of
> abstract things we call strings) but rather by the properties (once again,
> not of molecular dynamics or even chemical reactions) but biological
> functions,  and socio-economic-political functions as well. I *am*
> however, sensitive to the idea that where and how we draw the line between
> mind/body stuff can be important in any given argument, and that sometimes
> dropping that line altogether may be useful?
>
> The above riff on Mind-Stuff v Body-Stuff is really an intro into thoughts
> about how syntax and semantics might bootstrap sequentially.   It feels to
> me that the syntax of one level of abstraction yields an *emergent
> semantics* which in turn becomes the *syntax* of the next "level".I do
> acknowledge that Glen has made some arguments (and references) that are
> against the very abstraction of "levels" and that may well be the hole in
> everything I'm unrolling here, but for the moment, I feel I have a clear
> picture of a POSET of syntax/semantics, if not a full Hierarchy...
>
> This also backs me into the Platonic ideations with all the charms and
> criticisms already dancing as virtual (ideational) particles around
> that.I will go back to reading A Theory of Nothing
> ...
> and try to keep my offerings here under 10 pages each...
>
> On 3/4/23 4:32 AM, Santafe wrote:
>
> It’s helpful to have a conversation being maintained by somebod(ies) else, to 
> which one can be a bystander without the distraction of coming up with 
> contributions to it.  Things can suggest themselves that get pushed out of 
> awareness when one is carrying the discourse and figuring out what to do next 
> within it.
>
>
>
> In reading the below, about the time I got to the lines:
>
>
>
> The mind-body problem is the philosophical question of how the mind and body 
> are related. One of the main issues is how mental processes such as thoughts, 
> emotions, and consciousness are related to physical processes in the brain 
> and body.
>
> I was prompted with a term to refer to these mental/physical things.
>
>
>
> First, my sense of all this is one of witnessing structures in conversation.  
> Maybe I am more primed to that because with ChatGPT as the topic, one fronts 
> awareness of conversation as somewhat free-floating from its semantic ground. 
>  As tokens in conversation, it is perfectly sensible to say that (thoughts, 
> emotions, consciousness) are in a category Mental, while (weakness, hunger, 
> itching) go into a category Physical.  Not only is it okay to say they fit 
> tolerably into “categories” (or “classes”); the reason they do