Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Vladimir Vyskocil]

I think it's time to switch to the tagging list !

The tagging scheme that seems preferred in this discussion is the following :

- simple named junctions : use junction=yes and name=*
- complex named junctions with several lanes crossing a different points :
two propositions : 
- use a relation { type=junction, name=*,  junction role,...} 
referencing all the crossing points between the lanes
- use a place { tag=junction or crossroads, name=* } on a area 
englobing the crossing points

All right ? What are your opinions on this ?

Vlad.


On 27 mars 2013, at 00:22, Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com wrote:

 highway=traffic_signals + name=* are now also visible:
 Great!
 
 traffic_lights on complex crossroads
 Area or Relation
 I prefer to use relation.
 I'm afraid of effects to routing topology when signals or roundabouts
 are written as an area.
 
 As theory, the names of Japanese traffic signals are given to each
 signals, not to a junction.
 (and basically, the signals on a same junction has same names)
 
 
 
 2013/3/27 Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr:
 highway=traffic_signals + name=* are now also visible:
 http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?lon=139.71686lat=35.61534zoom=18
 
 You'll see that adding names to traffic_lights on complex crossroads
 causes the same name to be rendered multiple times in some places:
 http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?lon=139.71825lat=35.61857zoom=18
 
 A better tagging scheme seems necessary as one thing should be in
 the database just once.
 
 If we could avoid relations and use either the junction=yes or a
 place=junction/crossroad (place name are usually meant to be rendered
 that's why I'm thinking about it).
 
 Think also about Nominatim... place=* makes more sense for that purpose.
 
 
 2013/3/25 Vladimir Vyskocil vladimir.vysko...@gmail.com:
 
 And there are more than 7000 nodes with highway=traffic_signals and name=*
 in Tokyo and its suburbs !
 Another country, another solution for the same tagging problem.
 
 Vlad.
 
 --
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 Synthèse du Week-end SOTM-FR à Lyon : 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[John F. Eldredge]

Vladimir Vyskocil vladimir.vysko...@gmail.com wrote:

 I think it's time to switch to the tagging list !
 
 The tagging scheme that seems preferred in this discussion is the
 following :
 
 - simple named junctions : use junction=yes and name=*
 - complex named junctions with several lanes crossing a different
 points :
   two propositions : 
   - use a relation { type=junction, name=*,  junction role,...}
 referencing all the crossing points between the lanes
   - use a place { tag=junction or crossroads, name=* } on a area
 englobing the crossing points
 
 All right ? What are your opinions on this ?
 
 Vlad.
 
 
 On 27 mars 2013, at 00:22, Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  highway=traffic_signals + name=* are now also visible:
  Great!
  
  traffic_lights on complex crossroads
  Area or Relation
  I prefer to use relation.
  I'm afraid of effects to routing topology when signals or
 roundabouts
  are written as an area.
  
  As theory, the names of Japanese traffic signals are given to each
  signals, not to a junction.
  (and basically, the signals on a same junction has same names)
  
  
  
  2013/3/27 Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr:
  highway=traffic_signals + name=* are now also visible:
  http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?lon=139.71686lat=35.61534zoom=18
  
  You'll see that adding names to traffic_lights on complex
 crossroads
  causes the same name to be rendered multiple times in some places:
  http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?lon=139.71825lat=35.61857zoom=18
  
  A better tagging scheme seems necessary as one thing should be in
  the database just once.
  
  If we could avoid relations and use either the junction=yes or a
  place=junction/crossroad (place name are usually meant to be
 rendered
  that's why I'm thinking about it).
  
  Think also about Nominatim... place=* makes more sense for that
 purpose.
  
  
  2013/3/25 Vladimir Vyskocil vladimir.vysko...@gmail.com:
  
  And there are more than 7000 nodes with highway=traffic_signals
 and name=*
  in Tokyo and its suburbs !
  Another country, another solution for the same tagging problem.
  
  Vlad.
  
  --
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  Synthèse du Week-end SOTM-FR à Lyon :
 http://openstreetmap.fr/synthese-sotmfr
  
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  mail: nyamp...@gmail.com
  twitter: @nyampire
  
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Moving this discussion to the tagging list sounds reasonable.
-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Reserve your right to think, for it is better to think wrongly than not to 
think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Henry Loenwind]

On 25.03.2013 22:24, Vladimir Vyskocil wrote:


And there are more than 7000 nodes with highway=traffic_signals and
name=* in Tokyo and its suburbs !
Another country, another solution for the same tagging problem.


And how is this unexpected? Without renderer support every community 
will develop its own solution. The only reason we don't see this all the 
time is that most of this is handled by the worldwide English speaking 
community.


cu
Henry

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Andrew Errington]

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 02:11:28 Hans Schmidt wrote:
 Am 25.03.2013 17:48, schrieb Christian Quest:
  Here is a quick and dirty rendering on the junction=yes + name=* tags
  that will make visible the 1800+ nodes overpass found mostly in Korea:
 
  http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?zoom=17lat=37.40505lon=127.12573

 This is exactly what I was asking for. Just put a rectangle around it,
 and that’s all. :)

Yup, it looks fine.

With or without a rectangle is ok.

Again, here's the link to the images I posted yesterday with some screenshots 
of Daum and Naver maps (Korean internet portals).  One is just a label, the 
other is a label in a rectangle.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:junction#Named_junctions_in_Korea

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Andrew Errington]

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 01:48:31 Christian Quest wrote:
 I wanted to try rendering those crossroad names so I've had a quick
 look in Korea, near Seoul and found many nodes with names around
 intersecting highways.

 Example: http://osm.org/browse/node/414684650

 What is the current tagging scheme for crossroad names ? junction=yes ?
 Is it used in countries where crossroad names are meaningful and worth
 rendering on a map ?

 Based on the few data I've looked at, there are nodes with names but
 not connected to highways and without any tag allowing to say this
 looks like a crossroad name that I should render.

That's how it is I'm afraid, and that is a good example.  I'd suggest that 
node needs an additional tag - junction=yes - as described in the wiki to 
make it very clear.  It should also be merged with the node at the 
intersection of the two ways that actually form the crossroads.

There are many 'floating nodes' like this, which are not attached to any way.  
They are from an import that was done a couple of years ago.  Some of these 
nodes are near ways, and should be merged into the way.  Some of them are not 
near anything, but there is probably a road there that hasn't been drawn yet.  
Since they are from an import they should probably be verified by local 
mappers before being attached to a way, especially as there is also a *huge* 
amount of redevelopment happening here almost constantly.  We could argue 
that without that import things would be better, but then there'd be nothing 
to see.  Korea is a bit of a mess really, but it's moving on slowly.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Janko Mihelić]

2013/3/26 Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com


 Yup, it looks fine.

 With or without a rectangle is ok.


What about traffic lights? Is it necessary to see them behind the label?

Here you can see Google doesn't hide traffic lights:
http://goo.gl/maps/BgxjN

And the rectangle makes the junction label different from other labels, so
you know what they represent.

Janko
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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Vladimir Vyskocil]

 That's how it is I'm afraid, and that is a good example.  I'd suggest that 
 node needs an additional tag - junction=yes - as described in the wiki to 
 make it very clear.  It should also be merged with the node at the 
 intersection of the two ways that actually form the crossroads.
 

But how to deal with complex crossroads where there's not a single point of 
junction, but many (oneway or not) lanes crossing at different points ?
A relation with type=junction referencing all the crossing points and carrying 
the name of the whole crossroad ?

Vlad.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Hans Schmidt]

Am 26.03.2013 11:30, schrieb Vladimir Vyskocil:
 But how to deal with complex crossroads where there's not a single point of 
 junction, but many (oneway or not) lanes crossing at different points ?
 A relation with type=junction referencing all the crossing points and 
 carrying the name of the whole crossroad ?

I’m not sure, but maybe for that an isolated node would be possible,
which is just placed in the middle? But maybe this poses problems for
navigation.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Andrew Errington]

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 19:30:58 Vladimir Vyskocil wrote:
  That's how it is I'm afraid, and that is a good example.  I'd suggest
  that node needs an additional tag - junction=yes - as described in the
  wiki to make it very clear.  It should also be merged with the node at
  the intersection of the two ways that actually form the crossroads.

 But how to deal with complex crossroads where there's not a single point of
 junction, but many (oneway or not) lanes crossing at different points ? A
 relation with type=junction referencing all the crossing points and
 carrying the name of the whole crossroad ?

Maybe that would work.  We do need that in Korea, as there are many 
dual-carriageways crossing other dual-carriageways with slipways between 
them.  Drivers using any road would need to see the name of the approaching 
junction, but it's the same name.  Right now I think each junction node is 
just tagged with the same information.

I can raise the issue on the talk-ko list to get more input, but really, a 
simple and obvious solution like this could be used right away.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Satoshi IIDA]

 http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?zoom=17lat=37.40505lon=127.12573
+1 from Japan, too.

Here are some other samples. (not OSM)
http://yahoo.jp/Srff4c
http://www.mapion.co.jp/m/35.4624614580357_139.61675208953122_10/

 just placed in the middle
Yes, there are such a case. (traffic signals with name, without junction)
But they are very rare, and don't have serious effects.

It could be very helpful if signal names will be rendered.




2013/3/26 Hans Schmidt z0idb...@gmx.de:
 Am 25.03.2013 17:48, schrieb Christian Quest:
 Here is a quick and dirty rendering on the junction=yes + name=* tags
 that will make visible the 1800+ nodes overpass found mostly in Korea:

 http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?zoom=17lat=37.40505lon=127.12573


 This is exactly what I was asking for. Just put a rectangle around it,
 and that’s all. :)

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mail: nyamp...@gmail.com
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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Andrew Errington]

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 19:23:40 Janko Mihelić wrote:
 2013/3/26 Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com

  Yup, it looks fine.
 
  With or without a rectangle is ok.

 What about traffic lights? Is it necessary to see them behind the label?

 Here you can see Google doesn't hide traffic lights:
 http://goo.gl/maps/BgxjN

 And the rectangle makes the junction label different from other labels, so
 you know what they represent.

I think this is a rendering issue.  If the data indicates that there is a name 
for this junction *and* there are traffic lights then the renderer can render 
a label, a traffic light icon, or both (or nothing).  It comes down to to the 
capabilities of the renderer, and the person who decides what's important to 
render.

I like the rectangle around the label.

I think this discussion is about two things:

1) How do we record the fact that a junction has a name?
2) If the junction is named, can OSM Mapnik show a nice label?

For 1), I think the simple method stated in the wiki (junction=yes) is good 
enough. (or any value of junction=*).  I also think that a relation is good 
enough for the case where a named junction covers a large area with many 
possible transition points.

For 2) I would appreciate it if OSM Mapnik would show a label if the name was 
properly recorded.  I realise that it's easy to make such a request, but that 
someone somewhere has to do some work to make it happen.

There may be other renderers that *do* show a label for a named junction right 
now, but I don't know what they are.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Peter Wendorff]

I would propose to draw the intersection as an area in these cases, as
the whole area, and not only the nodes of intersecting streets is named,
I guess.

regards
Peter

Am 26.03.2013 11:30, schrieb Vladimir Vyskocil:
 
 That's how it is I'm afraid, and that is a good example.  I'd suggest that 
 node needs an additional tag - junction=yes - as described in the wiki to 
 make it very clear.  It should also be merged with the node at the 
 intersection of the two ways that actually form the crossroads.

 
 But how to deal with complex crossroads where there's not a single point of 
 junction, but many (oneway or not) lanes crossing at different points ?
 A relation with type=junction referencing all the crossing points and 
 carrying the name of the whole crossroad ?
 
 Vlad.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2013/3/26 Hans Schmidt z0idb...@gmx.de:
 Am 26.03.2013 11:30, schrieb Vladimir Vyskocil:
 But how to deal with complex crossroads where there's not a single point of 
 junction, but many (oneway or not) lanes crossing at different points ?
 A relation with type=junction referencing all the crossing points and 
 carrying the name of the whole crossroad ?

 I’m not sure, but maybe for that an isolated node would be possible,
 which is just placed in the middle? But maybe this poses problems for
 navigation.


You could also have an area instead of the node or the relation.

IMHO a tagging like highway=traffic_signals name=foo doesn't make much
sense, as it seems to describe the name of the traffic lights. There
should better be modeled a junction (junction!=no, name=*)

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Christian Quest]

highway=traffic_signals + name=* are now also visible:
http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?lon=139.71686lat=35.61534zoom=18

You'll see that adding names to traffic_lights on complex crossroads
causes the same name to be rendered multiple times in some places:
http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?lon=139.71825lat=35.61857zoom=18

A better tagging scheme seems necessary as one thing should be in
the database just once.

If we could avoid relations and use either the junction=yes or a
place=junction/crossroad (place name are usually meant to be rendered
that's why I'm thinking about it).

Think also about Nominatim... place=* makes more sense for that purpose.


2013/3/25 Vladimir Vyskocil vladimir.vysko...@gmail.com:

 And there are more than 7000 nodes with highway=traffic_signals and name=*
 in Tokyo and its suburbs !
 Another country, another solution for the same tagging problem.

 Vlad.

-- 
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Synthèse du Week-end SOTM-FR à Lyon : http://openstreetmap.fr/synthese-sotmfr

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Satoshi IIDA]

 highway=traffic_signals + name=* are now also visible:
Great!

 traffic_lights on complex crossroads
 Area or Relation
I prefer to use relation.
I'm afraid of effects to routing topology when signals or roundabouts
are written as an area.

As theory, the names of Japanese traffic signals are given to each
signals, not to a junction.
(and basically, the signals on a same junction has same names)



2013/3/27 Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr:
 highway=traffic_signals + name=* are now also visible:
 http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?lon=139.71686lat=35.61534zoom=18

 You'll see that adding names to traffic_lights on complex crossroads
 causes the same name to be rendered multiple times in some places:
 http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?lon=139.71825lat=35.61857zoom=18

 A better tagging scheme seems necessary as one thing should be in
 the database just once.

 If we could avoid relations and use either the junction=yes or a
 place=junction/crossroad (place name are usually meant to be rendered
 that's why I'm thinking about it).

 Think also about Nominatim... place=* makes more sense for that purpose.


 2013/3/25 Vladimir Vyskocil vladimir.vysko...@gmail.com:

 And there are more than 7000 nodes with highway=traffic_signals and name=*
 in Tokyo and its suburbs !
 Another country, another solution for the same tagging problem.

 Vlad.

 --
 Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France
 Synthèse du Week-end SOTM-FR à Lyon : 
 http://openstreetmap.fr/synthese-sotmfr

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Vladimir Vyskocil]

About crossroad names in Japan, I contributed quite a lot in Tokyo for 
remapping after odbl clean up and recently. I'm french and I'm doing armchair 
mapping but I'll visit Tokyo in june and this is my motivation to fix and 
upgrade what I can do from here. I've also made a iOS application using OSM 
data for travel needs.
I've seen several practical solutions for crossroad names used there, but none 
of them seems the right solution. They have the merit to exists and I think 
it's time to look at them and find a consensus, then render this very needed 
information in those area !
Here are some samples of what can be found :

- Here : http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/31254333, the 
highway=traffic_signals (both of them) have been tagged with the name of the 
crossing.There are lot of them. It's not the right solution for this problem 
because the information is duplicated accross several traffic_signals and 
crossing can have a name despite there is no traffic_signals...
- I thought I've seen highway=crossing with name tag but can't find any with 
overpass API... perhaps I just read someone talking about this possibility

Overpass XAPI call for highway=traffic_signals with names : 
http://overpass-turbo.eu/?q=PCEtLQpUaGlzIHF1ZXJ5IGxvb2vEiGZvciBub2Rlcywgd2F5xIhhbmQgcmVsYXRpb27EiAp3aXRoIMS0ZSBnaXZlbiBrZXkuCkNoxJFzxLh5b3XEl8SoxLrEriDEpMSmxIZ0xLZoxLhSdcS-YnV0dMWQYWJvxLwhCsSCPgp7e8WAeT3EhmdoxKB5fX3FqXt2YWzEiz10cmFmZmljX3NpZ27FuXPFtAo8b3NtLXNjcmlwxZXFi3RwxZ09ImpzxK4ixaggIDzFmsStbsaixqPGpMSKxIzEjnR5cGXGnMSZxJvGoQrGqsaqPGhhcy1rdsS_xpzFqsWsxbQiIHbHgsW3xbnEi8eFL8apxrjGusa8xr7HgGvGs2FtZSLHjsa3xrjGpGLFongtxqzEjSDFqsefb3jFtMebx5Avx6N5xqk8L8amxK7HsHDGlG7FlW3EmsayIsWiZHnHmsewxKhjxYzFiMS2xrDHvGRvd27IgcecPMe2ace4IMe6xJvGnHPFgGxlxZ_Ijcebx7HGjsaQxpLGlMaWPgc=CC313d6v3MR

Regards,
Vlad.

On 24 mars 2013, at 21:29, Hans Schmidt z0idb...@gmx.de wrote:

 Am 24.03.2013 19:28, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
 this is a case where you would need the feature (e.g. also for custom
 subway signs, road colors, highway shields etc. by
 country/city/region/etc.)
 
 Actually if I think about it, the feature is rather a must-have in some
 future version:
 
 Different signs for temples, schools, parking lots, cementaries etc.
 Everything where something culturally or linguistical plays a role. I
 wouldn’t even dare to guess how much stuff there is which is better to
 distinguish from country to country.
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Andrew Errington]

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 22:45:28 Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Are you in touch with mappers in Japan or Korea, and if so, what is
 their opinion regarding intersection names? Are they waiting for someone
 to tell them what to do, or have they invented some kind of hack to add
 this (according to you) very important information? If they haven't,
 then why not?

*I* am mapping in Korea.  I would like to see intersection names rendered on 
the map.  In fact, a long time ago I read about it in the wiki, which claimed 
that junction=yes can be used in conjunction with a name=* tag:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:junction

Naturally, I assumed that a named junction would be labelled on the map, since 
what is the point of recording something if it's not used?  Also if something 
is documented in the wiki then it's real, and can be relied upon.  As it 
turns out, this is not the case, so what's the point?

I suggested to Hans that he could enter a suggestion in the OSM Mapnik 
rendering trac database, as described here: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mapnik

Since, according to the wiki To report bugs or graphical suggestions for the 
main map on the OSM webside, do so in the 'mapnik' component of OSM's trac

That's exactly what he did.  So what else is he supposed to do?  Perhaps the 
wiki should be edited to state don't bother making graphical suggestions 
because the system is too unwieldy now and we dare not change it.

And it *is* important.  In my original reply to Hans I said that I showed the
osm.org map to a Korean friend who was looking very hard for a named junction
to orient herself with the map, but it wasn't labelled.  

Mapping in Korea is going very slowly, not because of this issue of course, 
but because there is no *need* for OSM.  Koreans have great mapping services 
via the portal sites Daum and Naver.  They both blow Google and other mapping 
services out of the water.  I'm still happy to contribute to OSM as I 
recognise its long-term importance though.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Andrew Errington]

On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 03:28:04 malenki wrote:
 Am Sun, 24 Mar 2013 18:15:19 +0100

 schrieb Hans Schmidt z0idb...@gmx.de:
  Am 24.03.2013 16:15, schrieb malenki:
   Since you didn't go into details in you OP, where from should I know
   this?
 
  Well, I mentioned it some weeks before. I didn’t want to write
  anything again, because this should have been just a running-up
  thread for the bug tracker.

 A link to the post would have done.

  page. Imagine if a German person would like to see the map of Russia?
  Should he then first search for the Russian OSM page? Why not just
  use one map for everything?

 If I have a look at Japanese or Korean regions with osm.org I still
 wouldn't miss the names of the crossroads :)

That's because you are not Korean.

I added some samples of Korean mapping service renderings of an area in Korea:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:junction#Named_junctions_in_Korea

As you can see, a small label is present on the junction at centre-right of 
the images.

Daum has it as 법원사거리 in a small white box.
Naver has it as two lines in a slightly different colour:
법원
사거리

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Richard Fairhurst]

Andrew Errington wrote:
 That's exactly what he did.  So what else is he supposed to do?  Perhaps 
 the wiki should be edited to state don't bother making graphical 
 suggestions because the system is too unwieldy now and we dare not 
 change it.

No-one has said that. There is an active effort to change it, as Tom pointed
out:

[quoting Tom]
| The problem is that the original XML stylesheet is all but impossible 
| to edit which is why it is being redeveloped in carto and preparations 
| are being made for deployment of that redeveloped version. 

Please don't use unnecessarily pejorative language like we dare not and
thereby denigrate those who _are_ working hard to do something about it.

Richard





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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Andrew Errington]

On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 19:29:47 Richard Fairhurst wrote:
 Andrew Errington wrote:
  That's exactly what he did.  So what else is he supposed to do?  Perhaps
  the wiki should be edited to state don't bother making graphical
  suggestions because the system is too unwieldy now and we dare not
  change it.

 No-one has said that. There is an active effort to change it, as Tom
 pointed out:

 [quoting Tom]

 | The problem is that the original XML stylesheet is all but impossible
 | to edit which is why it is being redeveloped in carto and preparations
 | are being made for deployment of that redeveloped version.

 Please don't use unnecessarily pejorative language like we dare not and
 thereby denigrate those who _are_ working hard to do something about it.

It's hyperbole, but I apologise.  My point is there is nothing to say that 
implementation of any suggestions will be stalled for a while because a new 
system is under development.  Not everyone reads the mailing list, and those 
who do may not remember that someone mentioned OSM Mapnik is fiddly, and a 
new, better, system is being worked on.  It would seem that the typical, 
well-meaning user enters a request and sees nothing happening, and that is an 
issue.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Peter Wendorff]

Am 24.03.2013 18:38, schrieb Hans Schmidt:
 Am 24.03.2013 17:59, schrieb Kevin Peat:
 On 24 March 2013 16:38, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote:
 What makes you think money is the problem?

 Money could help to speed up the process by buying time which people
 may not be able to give as a volunteer. Crowd sourcing map data works
 great because it is fun (for OSMers at least!) but building
 stylesheets is fun for way less people so some inducement may be
 required.

 This is exactly what I think. Although I happily map with JOSM, I have almost 
 no idea about programming or anything more difficult. I rather invest my time 
 into something which I am good at, and where I can earn money. I would really 
 like to give something of that money to OSM so that other people who are good 
 at programming can improve the page for me. Or that somebody might start to 
 do some unpleasant work if he is compensated for that dull work with money, 
 so that he can do something fun with it. 
 Why should I invest so much time a) learning how to program and b) learning 
 to understand the stuff behind OSM, if somebody who already is proficient in 
 these things can do it so much more efficient than me? 
 
 I wonder why the monetary aspect is not more prominent in open source 
 projects. Imo, this could solve many many problems in projects, which are 
 stuck in their development due to lack of manpower.
 This divison of labour is the core of our economic system and it works very 
 well. You pay a hairdresser to get your hair cut, because you do not want to 
 or you cannot cut your hair yourself. You pay somebody to have a nice book 
 from a foreign language translated, because it would cost you too much time 
 to learn the language for yourself. 

And that's what's happening all the time, even around OSM.
Mapbox is paying people for their products, and some of them are out
there for the open.

The Knight foundation funds development of iD, which is and will be open
source.

The Geofabrik pays for german OSM flyers to be printed and distributed
for free to promote osm by mappers, and they pay for the extraction of
osm region datasets as well as for the traffic to provide these online.

But that's not osm(f) pays somebody to...

If you want to have feature X done and you're not able to do it
yourself, but you want to pay for it, go for it: find a coder, pay him
and provide patches that are easy to maintain or where the current
maintainers believe you or your coder maintain the code in future (by
your payment or without), and you might get what you want even without
coding skills.

I don't think anybody will stop patches to be introduced because their
developers have been payed by anyone to code them; but out of the same
reasons any other patch might be stopped: bad quality, no future concept
for maintenance or probably wrong direction.

Your argument might be true on the one hand: any particular issue might
be solved/any particular feature might be implemented earlier, but
what's with the hundrets of services and features around that now are
developed for free in the spare time of coders, researchers or
enthusiasts who even learn coding by trying out new things?

I understand people that do not spend time in their own (free) osm
routing service implementation, if there's a chance to get a paid job
from osmf in a couple of months - as long as nobody else is doing the
same for free up to then. I probably would prefer doing something else
first then, too.

Paying people for stuff that's really necessary is one thing. Paying
people for stuff that's wanted by some other people IMHO should be done
- if - by these people directly. The collective of osm (osmf and it's
members or even all mappers) is inhomogenous and paying for features
dictates a direction, makes necessary decisions that prefer one
feature over another, and I don't think that's a good idea.


regards
Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Christian Quest]

I wanted to try rendering those crossroad names so I've had a quick
look in Korea, near Seoul and found many nodes with names around
intersecting highways.

Example: http://osm.org/browse/node/414684650

What is the current tagging scheme for crossroad names ? junction=yes ?
Is it used in countries where crossroad names are meaningful and worth
rendering on a map ?

Based on the few data I've looked at, there are nodes with names but
not connected to highways and without any tag allowing to say this
looks like a crossroad name that I should render.

Rendering anything on a map implies to have a stable tagging scheme,
and have available data using these tags.

It is also true that as long as something is not rendered on most
maps, nobody really care adding that invisible information in the
database (chicken and egg problem).
!

Here is a quick and dirty rendering on the junction=yes + name=* tags
that will make visible the 1800+ nodes overpass found mostly in Korea:

http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?zoom=17lat=37.40505lon=127.12573

-- 
Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Hans Schmidt]

Am 25.03.2013 16:45, schrieb Peter Wendorff:
 If you want to have feature X done and you're not able to do it
 yourself, but you want to pay for it, go for it: find a coder, pay him
 and provide patches that are easy to maintain or where the current
 maintainers believe you or your coder maintain the code in future (by
 your payment or without), and you might get what you want even without
 coding skills.

Yes, but there you have the problem that there is an established
“system” for that missing. Of course, I could start a kickstarter
project for every small issue (let’s say I really want to have smart
quotations in a newly created word processor). But then all the things
like searching for a developer, introduction into the project etc. takes
too much time and thus money.

At least in projects with some size it would be nicer if there were some
kind of affiliated programmer would be nice: He already knows the
project and how to implement something. On the bug tracker it would then
be necessary to donate some kind of money which will then be associated
with a specific bug or feature (or a feature group). Maybe there can be
some milestones which are needed to be reached.

I guess for most bugs, the OSS projects are happy if new features are
implemented. I am not talking about “i want a radical different
interface and I pay 2138354 Euros so that it is supported” (well, you
could do that, but then you would likely get a fork), but rather these
small issues, where the only problem is lack of manpower (or personal
interest of some programmers).



 I understand people that do not spend time in their own (free) osm
 routing service implementation, if there's a chance to get a paid job
 from osmf in a couple of months - as long as nobody else is doing the
 same for free up to then. I probably would prefer doing something else
 first then, too.

I do understand that problem. Some people may think “why should I do
this for free if somebody is paid to do it?”. But look on the other
hand: From an outside perspective, many OSS projects, as advanced as
they are, are in no way up to commercial standards. Sometimes, a
commercial program is at the same level after 2 or 3 years of
development as some OSS application which is developed for 15 years. And
the development is not standing still: in the future, it will change
even more. I don’t think that there will be some kind of convergence,
but rather even more divergency in the future. If application
development has become so difficult these days (one does expect more
than a simple command line application from most programs), it seems
that money can help with that.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Hans Schmidt]

Am 25.03.2013 17:48, schrieb Christian Quest:
 Here is a quick and dirty rendering on the junction=yes + name=* tags
 that will make visible the 1800+ nodes overpass found mostly in Korea:

 http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?zoom=17lat=37.40505lon=127.12573


This is exactly what I was asking for. Just put a rectangle around it,
and that’s all. :)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Vladimir Vyskocil]

On 25 mars 2013, at 17:48, Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr wrote:

 Here is a quick and dirty rendering on the junction=yes + name=* tags
 that will make visible the 1800+ nodes overpass found mostly in Korea:
 
 http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?zoom=17lat=37.40505lon=127.12573

And there are more than 7000 nodes with highway=traffic_signals and name=* in 
Tokyo and its suburbs !
Another country, another solution for the same tagging problem.

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[OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Hans Schmidt]

Hello,

some weeks/months ago I started a discussion here that OSM needs to show
crossroad names. I then opened a bug report on the bug tracker, but
there was absolutely no reaction there – not even a comment that it is
not needed (as it is at least usually done on OSS projects).

As I announced, I would not give up so easily, so that is why I write
another mail.

How can we get this feature supported? For comparison, try to imagine
what a European OSM map would look like without street names. We could
try to delete them for a while, and I bet that it would be supported
again in no time.

Thanks.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[malenki]

Am Sun, 24 Mar 2013 12:48:21 +0100
schrieb Hans Schmidt z0idb...@gmx.de:

 some weeks/months ago I started a discussion here that OSM needs to
 show crossroad names. I then opened a bug report on the bug tracker,
 but there was absolutely no reaction there – not even a comment that
 it is not needed (as it is at least usually done on OSS projects).

It seems there are not a lot of people in need of this feature.

 As I announced, I would not give up so easily, so that is why I write
 another mail.
 
 How can we get this feature supported?

Render a map supporting name= on crossroads. Or make an overlay using
Overpass API.

 For comparison, try to imagine what a European OSM map would look
 like without street names. 

Apples and pears?

regards
Thomas



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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Tom Hughes]

On 24/03/13 11:48, Hans Schmidt wrote:


some weeks/months ago I started a discussion here that OSM needs to show
crossroad names. I then opened a bug report on the bug tracker, but
there was absolutely no reaction there – not even a comment that it is
not needed (as it is at least usually done on OSS projects).

As I announced, I would not give up so easily, so that is why I write
another mail.

How can we get this feature supported? For comparison, try to imagine
what a European OSM map would look like without street names. We could
try to delete them for a while, and I bet that it would be supported
again in no time.


Well the stylesheet is basically stalled at the moment, but we are 
working to revive it.


As always though, there is no infinite pool people waiting to jump on 
tickets and implement them so the best way to get something in is always 
to provide a patch to implement it.


In this case the way to do that would be to work against the new carto 
based stylesheet,which you can find here:


  https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto

That is not yet in production but we are working to get it into 
production as a way of rebooting the stylesheet maintenance.


Tom

--
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Hans Schmidt]

Am 24.03.2013 13:07, schrieb malenki:
 It seems there are not a lot of people in need of this feature.
About 160 mio people is not a lot of people?
 Render a map supporting name= on crossroads. Or make an overlay using
 Overpass API.
You miss my point: This is an essential map feature. And why should I
make a map for me personally, if this is a general issue for everyone?

 Apples and pears?
Is it? It seems that you have just made a comment without _any_
knowledge and without even the slightest bit of effort to understand
what this is about.
Sorry, but opinions like yours are ...


For you in an abbreviated form, so that you can understand it:
Crossroad names are in Japan and Korea similar to what street names in
Europe are. They give a help for orientation. Without them, a map in
Japan or Korea is extremely hard to read.

Now you say that there are no people who need this: I would rather say
that the general number of people from Japan or Korea who are using OSM
is low, not the one number of people who would need it. So then we can
analyze why few people from there use OSM. I would definitly say because

1. The entire project is extremely european centric
2. Major features who needed there are not supported (for example
crossroad names)
3. If the map is so unsuitable for non-european regions, nobody will use
it - nobody will participate - it seems that nobody needs these features

So: There _are_ basic features who need to be supported in order that
people from these regions will participate. And this is exactly why I
made the comparison with street names. This is not apples and pears,
this is chicken and egg.

Of course, you can say that OSM is a European project, but then you
should just delete every non-European data and restrict the map to
Europe, so that nobody dares to create maps in their own country.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Frederik Ramm]

Hans,

   OSM is a help yourself project. Street names are important in 
Europe, that's why Europeans helped themselves by making a database that 
records, and a map that shows, street names. People in countries where 
crossroads names are very important are invited to help themselves and 
improve OSM to the point where it becomes easy to record and display 
crossroads names.


(OSM is quite popular in Japan so I'm surprised to hear from you that 
OSM should be extremely hard to read there. The Japanese OSM community 
does possess considerable technical skills so I would have assumed that 
if crossroads names are as important as you say, they would have 
developed something to implement them in the mean time.)



1. The entire project is extremely european centric
2. Major features who needed there are not supported (for example
crossroad names)
3. If the map is so unsuitable for non-european regions, nobody will use
it - nobody will participate - it seems that nobody needs these features


This logic doesn't work. OSM has bootstrapped itself from nothing to 
what it is today in Europe. People in Europe participated in OSM before 
the map was usable, and made it usable. People in Japan and Korea can do 
the same.


OSM is not an European project, OSM is a project that gives everyone on 
the planet the chance to participate and make a good map for their area.


To my knowledge there hasn't been a proposal from Japan or Korea about 
how to map or render crossroads names; I'm sure it would be favourably 
considered by the wider community. It would make no sense for someone in 
Europe to develop something that he believes is useful in Japan or Korea 
when he doesn't even know the local circumstances. As I sad, OSM is a 
help-yourself project; people in Japan or Korea are welcome to help 
themselves.


The way things like this often happen is that someone invents some kind 
of hack to achieve what they want - for example, it would be slightly 
incorrect but possible to place a node at a named intersection and tag 
it place=locality, name=blah blah. This would be rendered on the map. 
If it turns out that there's demand for this kind of information and 
people start to add it more frequently, someone would perhaps say uh 
guys, place=locality is not really good for an intersection name, let's 
make up something better, and things would run their course.


Are you in touch with mappers in Japan or Korea, and if so, what is 
their opinion regarding intersection names? Are they waiting for someone 
to tell them what to do, or have they invented some kind of hack to add 
this (according to you) very important information? If they haven't, 
then why not?


Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2013/3/24 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org:
  OSM is a help yourself project. Street names are important in Europe,
 that's why Europeans helped themselves by making a database that records,
 and a map that shows, street names. People in countries where crossroads
 names are very important are invited to help themselves and improve OSM to
 the point where it becomes easy to record and display crossroads names.

 (OSM is quite popular in Japan so I'm surprised to hear from you that OSM
 should be extremely hard to read there. The Japanese OSM community does
 possess considerable technical skills so I would have assumed that if
 crossroads names are as important as you say, they would have developed
 something to implement them in the mean time.)


But there were times when it was easier for the Europeans to help
themselves, i.e propose a patch for one of the 2 main open map styles
(osmarender and mapnik) and have hope that it would be integrated
(actually in Osmarender you could simply change whatever you felt was
reasonable). AFAIK almost all recently closed mapnik tickets were
marked either invalid, won't fix, worksforme or duplicate, but I
couldn't find hardly anything that actually got integrated. The only 2
tickets I found that were opened since Jan 2012 and got fixed for
mapnik are these two:
https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/4226
https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/4523  (doesn't appear to have
been a style problem)

While I agree that mapnik is (at least for European areas) a
reasonably mature style there are still lots of smaller issues that
might be addressed (and maybe are not because of issues with mapnik on
windows or key not available in db or maybe not so much available time
that the style sheet developers can dedicate). Anyway, for whatever
reason, in the past few years there were very few modifications to
what the style displays and how (while at the same time tagging
evolved a lot).

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Hans Schmidt]

Am 24.03.2013 14:45, schrieb Frederik Ramm:
 The way things like this often happen is that someone invents some
 kind of hack to achieve what they want - for example, it would be
 slightly incorrect but possible to place a node at a named
 intersection and tag it place=locality, name=blah blah. This would
 be rendered on the map. If it turns out that there's demand for this
 kind of information and people start to add it more frequently,
 someone would perhaps say uh guys, place=locality is not really good
 for an intersection name, let's make up something better, and things
 would run their course.

I can understand that there is a need to first create the data and then
look which is the best. But in some cases, I think it is better to
create a solution and a recommendation beforehand. The thing is that
these features are needed (everyone can see this who takes a look at a
Japanese map), and with some planning in before, this would be easier. A
well developed solution how this is done can enable everyone to tag the
data correctly. If you do a dirty hack, you have to correct everything
afterwards again.


 Are you in touch with mappers in Japan or Korea, and if so, what is
 their opinion regarding intersection names? Are they waiting for
 someone to tell them what to do, or have they invented some kind of
 hack to add this (according to you) very important information? If
 they haven't, then why not?

I have asked the question on the Japanese mailing list, and there the
reply was something like “Yeah, we had the discussion before, and the
general opinion was ‘it would be better to have them displayed’”.

As to why they are not more eager to have them displayed – I don’t know.
Maybe it is a language issue?

Still, there is one problem though: I rather get the feeling that if
this is not supported on the main map, there will be some forks, where
the country specific issues are resolved on a separate page. And I think
this is a problem which is really not desirable. Of course, “OSM is only
a database, not a map”, but osm.org is de facto the place to go if you
want to see the OSM map. If you then have to use tens of different maps
for every country, this is not good.
 
And as Martin said: If a project has gained a certain size, it is harder
to get suggestions implemented. If a project is small, a small issue
will likely be implemented. If it is larger, it is usually considered as
not as important.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2013/3/24 Hans Schmidt z0idb...@gmx.de:
 And as Martin said: If a project has gained a certain size, it is harder
 to get suggestions implemented.


While I'd agree with this, it is not what I wrote. I said: it seems
that mapnik style development has stuck in the recent past (1-2
years), while other fields like tagging have continued to evolve in a
dynamic way as usual.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Cartinus]

Have you started working on a patch for the stylesheet yet?

Until you do please stop spamming.

-- 
---
m.v.g.,
Cartinus

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Peter Körner]

Am 24.03.2013 15:10, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:

But there were times when it was easier for the Europeans to help
themselves, i.e propose a patch for one of the 2 main open map styles
(osmarender and mapnik) and have hope that it would be integrated
(actually in Osmarender you could simply change whatever you felt was
reasonable). AFAIK almost all recently closed mapnik tickets were
marked either invalid, won't fix, worksforme or duplicate, but I
couldn't find hardly anything that actually got integrated.


Currently ist's really hard for anyone (not just Europeans) to do any 
change to the mapnik style due tu its complexity. That's why nobody 
really works on it; not because they don't care but because its freaking 
hard to get the style to do exactly what you want without destroying 
sth. else.


Well, someone *is* working on it, he's porting it to Carto to make it 
accessable for the broader public, too:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto

So your best option would be to fork the above mentioned repo, 
incorporate your changes, do some test-renderings of areas in 
Japan/Korea *and* Europe and put all together into a pull request.


The carto style is not yet deployed on osm.org but I'm really sure it 
will land there, soon. The more new features it has over the current 
style, the sooner.


Peter


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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[malenki]

Am Sun, 24 Mar 2013 14:12:47 +0100
schrieb Hans Schmidt z0idb...@gmx.de:

 Am 24.03.2013 13:07, schrieb malenki:
  It seems there are not a lot of people in need of this feature.
 About 160 mio people is not a lot of people?

Since you didn't go into details in you OP, where from should I know
this?
What I wanted to say with what I said above is along with Frederik
Ramm's opinion: If there would be/is a real need to render such a map,
somebody would have done/ will do it. :)

  Render a map supporting name= on crossroads. Or make an overlay
  using Overpass API.
 You miss my point: This is an essential map feature. And why should I
 make a map for me personally, if this is a general issue for everyone?

I did not say you should render it for yourself. You can make it
public.

  Apples and pears?
 Is it? It seems that you have just made a comment without _any_
 knowledge and without even the slightest bit of effort to understand
 what this is about.

Like IT people like to say: crap in, crap out.
You say a lot of people need xy, what if we took away ab from
Europe. Luckily in your reply you gave some details (below)
 Sorry, but opinions like yours are ...

You are welcome :)

 [nice explanation why rendered crossroad names are not unimportant]
 [...]
 3. If the map is so unsuitable for non-european regions, nobody will
 use it - nobody will participate - it seems that nobody needs these
 features

In 2006 the map was totally unusable. Despite this fact a lot of
people contributed and made it usable and are going on doing so.

 So: There _are_ basic features who need to be supported in order that
 people from these regions will participate. 

Imho a reason for only a small number of participants in the regions
you mentioned can also be the number of imports dumped into the
database without any cleanup. Just mentioning KSJ2 (tons of
intersecting ways of all kind, thirteen useless tags¹ on lot of nodes),
YahooJapanALPS_Data (lot of unconnected/intersecting highways) or what
user cyana did in South Korea.

 And this is exactly why I made the comparison with street names.
 This is not apples and pears

With your explanations not anymore.

Thomas

¹ http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/KSJ2%3AINT#combinations



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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[malenki]

Am Sun, 24 Mar 2013 15:35:06 +0100
schrieb Hans Schmidt z0idb...@gmx.de:

 Still, there is one problem though: I rather get the feeling that if
 this is not supported on the main map, there will be some forks, where
 the country specific issues are resolved on a separate page. And I
 think this is a problem which is really not desirable.

Why not? E.g. openstreetmap.de has it's own rendering style.

 Of course, “OSM is only a database, not a map”, but osm.org is de
 facto the place to go if you want to see the OSM map. If you then
 have to use tens of different maps for every country, this is not
 good. 

Then why these sites exist (random picks):
openstreetmap.de (own style)
openstreetmap.nl
openstreetmap.jp
openstreetmap.sk
(redirect to awesome freemap.sk)
openstreetmap.cz
openstreetmap.ru
openstreetmap.by (own style)



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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Kevin Peat]

On 24 March 2013 15:00, Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de wrote:

 Currently ist's really hard for anyone (not just Europeans) to do any change
 to the mapnik style due tu its complexity. That's why nobody really works on
 it; not because they don't care but because its freaking hard to get the
 style to do exactly what you want without destroying sth. else.


The current stylesheet has been stuck for ages, even in Europe there
are a lot of useful things unrendered. How about OSMF paying someone
to complete this port? Possibly a corporate sponsor could be found or
have a kickstarter or something.

Kevin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Tom Hughes]

On 24/03/13 16:32, Kevin Peat wrote:

On 24 March 2013 15:00, Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de wrote:


Currently ist's really hard for anyone (not just Europeans) to do any change
to the mapnik style due tu its complexity. That's why nobody really works on
it; not because they don't care but because its freaking hard to get the
style to do exactly what you want without destroying sth. else.


The current stylesheet has been stuck for ages, even in Europe there
are a lot of useful things unrendered. How about OSMF paying someone
to complete this port? Possibly a corporate sponsor could be found or
have a kickstarter or something.


What makes you think money is the problem?

The problem is that the original XML stylesheet is all but impossible to 
edit which is why it is being redeveloped in carto and preparations are 
being made for deployment of that redeveloped version.


Tom

--
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Kevin Peat]

On 24 March 2013 16:38, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote:

 What makes you think money is the problem?


Money could help to speed up the process by buying time which people
may not be able to give as a volunteer. Crowd sourcing map data works
great because it is fun (for OSMers at least!) but building
stylesheets is fun for way less people so some inducement may be
required.

Kevin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Hans Schmidt]

Am 24.03.2013 16:15, schrieb malenki:
 Since you didn't go into details in you OP, where from should I know
 this?

Well, I mentioned it some weeks before. I didn’t want to write anything
again, because this should have been just a running-up thread for the
bug tracker.

 Why not? E.g. openstreetmap.de has it's own rendering style. 

Because what should be the advantage over one page for everything?

I admit, in order to use different languages, this used to be necessary
(more or less). But with the multilingual map, this problem is hopefully
solved in the future. With different websites, we rather have the
problem that the user has to know every single different page. Imagine
if a German person would like to see the map of Russia? Should he then
first search for the Russian OSM page? Why not just use one map for
everything?


Am 24.03.2013 16:00, schrieb Peter Körner:
 So your best option would be to fork the above mentioned repo,
 incorporate your changes, do some test-renderings of areas in
 Japan/Korea *and* Europe and put all together into a pull request.

About this: Is is not possible to make some styles specific to one
region, so that it would not wreak havoc in another? For example, if we
have crossroad names only in Japan and Korea, would it not be possible
to limit these changes only to these countries? So that the other
countries’ stylesheets are not even affected? Then it would be possible
to “play a little bit around” in one country, without affecting the
entire OSM page.
This would not only be relevant for my issue here. Imagine that in one
country, one type of shop would be so ubiquitous that it needed to be
supported. In another country, that kind of shop is non-existant or not
really relevant.
Or again concerning the crossroads: in Japan, they are usually displayed
with a rectangle around the name. In Korea, this may be different (not
sure about that, though). If we only have one stylesheet for the whole
world, this would inevitably cause problems or create some kind of
substandard “average”, where nobody is really content with.

Of course, this is a software issue, but maybe for some future version:
If these stylesheets could be customized according to region, it would
speed up changes and be more suitable for individual regions. Then the
Japanese mailing list would have the responsibility about “their country”.


By the way, I did not know that the original stylesheet is so impossible
to change. I rather though that it would be relatively easy in a way
like “if node has property x and y, do this“, not even with programming
skills involved. Sorry everyone, this was my mistake.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Hans Schmidt]

Am 24.03.2013 17:59, schrieb Kevin Peat:
 On 24 March 2013 16:38, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote:
 What makes you think money is the problem?

 Money could help to speed up the process by buying time which people
 may not be able to give as a volunteer. Crowd sourcing map data works
 great because it is fun (for OSMers at least!) but building
 stylesheets is fun for way less people so some inducement may be
 required.

This is exactly what I think. Although I happily map with JOSM, I have almost 
no idea about programming or anything more difficult. I rather invest my time 
into something which I am good at, and where I can earn money. I would really 
like to give something of that money to OSM so that other people who are good 
at programming can improve the page for me. Or that somebody might start to do 
some unpleasant work if he is compensated for that dull work with money, so 
that he can do something fun with it. 
Why should I invest so much time a) learning how to program and b) learning to 
understand the stuff behind OSM, if somebody who already is proficient in these 
things can do it so much more efficient than me? 

I wonder why the monetary aspect is not more prominent in open source projects. 
Imo, this could solve many many problems in projects, which are stuck in their 
development due to lack of manpower.
This divison of labour is the core of our economic system and it works very 
well. You pay a hairdresser to get your hair cut, because you do not want to or 
you cannot cut your hair yourself. You pay somebody to have a nice book from a 
foreign language translated, because it would cost you too much time to learn 
the language for yourself. 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2013/3/24 Hans Schmidt z0idb...@gmx.de:
 About this: Is is not possible to make some styles specific to one
 region, so that it would not wreak havoc in another? For example, if we
 have crossroad names only in Japan and Korea, would it not be possible
 to limit these changes only to these countries? So that the other
 countries’ stylesheets are not even affected? Then it would be possible
 to “play a little bit around” in one country, without affecting the
 entire OSM page.


AFAIK with the current implementation on OSM it is not possible, but
if you see the mapquest stack it would be feasible to distinguish by
country. IMHO it is not really necessary to cope on style sheet level
with this: either there is the data, or not, and if crossroads don't
have a name (Europe) nothing will show up even if there was a
rendering rule for named crossroads.


 This would not only be relevant for my issue here. Imagine that in one
 country, one type of shop would be so ubiquitous that it needed to be
 supported. In another country, that kind of shop is non-existant or not
 really relevant.


see above: the style renders data that is there, if a certain shop
type is non-existant in a country it won't be rendered, as it's not
there ;-)


 Or again concerning the crossroads: in Japan, they are usually displayed
 with a rectangle around the name. In Korea, this may be different (not
 sure about that, though). If we only have one stylesheet for the whole
 world, this would inevitably cause problems or create some kind of
 substandard “average”, where nobody is really content with.


this is a case where you would need the feature (e.g. also for custom
subway signs, road colors, highway shields etc. by
country/city/region/etc.)

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[malenki]

Am Sun, 24 Mar 2013 18:15:19 +0100
schrieb Hans Schmidt z0idb...@gmx.de:

 Am 24.03.2013 16:15, schrieb malenki:
  Since you didn't go into details in you OP, where from should I know
  this?
 
 Well, I mentioned it some weeks before. I didn’t want to write
 anything again, because this should have been just a running-up
 thread for the bug tracker.

A link to the post would have done.

 page. Imagine if a German person would like to see the map of Russia?
 Should he then first search for the Russian OSM page? Why not just
 use one map for everything?

If I have a look at Japanese or Korean regions with osm.org I still
wouldn't miss the names of the crossroads :)



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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Hans Schmidt]

Am 24.03.2013 19:28, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
 this is a case where you would need the feature (e.g. also for custom
 subway signs, road colors, highway shields etc. by
 country/city/region/etc.)

Actually if I think about it, the feature is rather a must-have in some
future version:

Different signs for temples, schools, parking lots, cementaries etc.
Everything where something culturally or linguistical plays a role. I
wouldn’t even dare to guess how much stuff there is which is better to
distinguish from country to country.


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