Re: [OSM-talk] Zonal restrictions.
On Wed, 13 May 2009 15:54:36 +0100, Dave Stubbs osm.l...@randomjunk.co.uk wrote: The first thing I thought of when reading this is, to use a relation. 'Relations are not categories' applies to people making relations out of all hotels or All hotels in London, doesn't really apply here. type=zone name=Dublin Centre maxspeed=20kph parking=no Where zone is a known geographic area? A bounding way with tags like: zone = restriction maxspeed = 20kph parking = no seems like the best way to do it to me if you don't want to just replicate the tags on everything (and I can understand why you wouldn't want to do that). There's no software that'll pay attention to it atm, but then it's not long ago that everything ignored route relations too. I really wouldn't recommend relations for specifying what things are inside an area. It's a waste of two entire dimensions our dataset happens to have. I completely agree here. A polygon is a simpler, easier to evaluate, to tag and much, much less error-prone way to do this compared to a relation that has all ways in that area as members. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Zonal restrictions.
On Wed, 13 May 2009 17:08:51 +0200, Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com wrote: I really wouldn't recommend relations for specifying what things are inside an area. It's a waste of two entire dimensions our dataset happens to have. So while it may work for many zonal restrictions to use an area (although even then there are still issues) you need another way as well due to the bridge/tunnel issue, and that other mehod can only be relations. Sorry to say that but if there are ways within the zone such as bridges and tunnels that are not affected, then this is not a zonal restriction at all. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Data Import Support Working Group
On Thu, 14 May 2009 15:26:37 +, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 1:26 AM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: The foundation today discussed the perceived need for a working group to help people import data. We know there are highly talented individuals out there who are able to find data to import, have the social skills and time to get data holders to release it to OSM, have the legal knowledge to see if it's ok to import and have the technical skills to do the actual importing. They are doing amazing work. I also welcome this development. I could need support in organizing the Import of the german TMC location-codes myself. (This will allow routing- and navigation -applications that use OSM to use electronic traffic-messages very easily.) I already wrote the code to parse these location-codes, have a schema, reference-implementation to use them, ... but I don't know how to organize the import of the parts that can be automatically imported and more importantly the parts that need manual assistance. (When germany is done there are a dozen other countries with TMC location-codes that have published them openly or may be willing to do so.) Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] TMC location codes
On Fri, 15 May 2009 15:11:31 -0700, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: marcus.wolsc...@googlemail.com wrote: (When germany is done there are a dozen other countries with TMC location-codes that have published them openly or may be willing to do so.) I wonder how to reverse engineer these codes for areas like the US where these codes may be otherwise impossible or difficult to obtain. Just log the TMC-events and compare with the locations the speaker on the same channel tells you. It may require some time to find out if a code refers to a road, point or segment but it is doable. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] zones for motorway/in town/outof town? - b orders are different
On Wed, 20 May 2009 12:00:31 +0200, MP singular...@gmail.com wrote: a) motorway: that's very clear, therea are no or very high limits. b) city areas with limited speed and some restrictions c) everything else, mostly out of town. In Czech republic there are different rules for motorways inside city area (maxspeed=80) and outside (maxspeed=130). So case d) identifying a) is easy and if we are able to identify what is inside and outside city - b), we can identify roads and motorways inside/outside city. I would like everyone to realise, that we are talking about 3 _different_ city-limits: a) the large administrative area that belongs to the city b) the area that has the given place in postal addresses c) the smaller area where driving rules for build up area apply Currently we have: * place-polygon or place-node without such a polygon and assumed radius * administrative area (admin_level) - maps easily to (b) * some landuse-polygons that have no direct relation to a b or c Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] zones for motorway/in town/outof town?
On Wed, 20 May 2009 14:16:05 +0200, MP singular...@gmail.com wrote:
I wonder, can we have at some place (wiki?) some definition file that
will specify these per-country default limits in some machine-readable
way?
I already empoly such a schema in Traveling Salesman:
https://apps.sourceforge.net/mediawiki/travelingsales/index.php?title=TrafficRuleManager
http://travelingsales.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/travelingsales/trunk/osmnavigation/src/org/openstreetmap/travelingsalesman/navigation/traffic/
This could look like this:
country(cz) {
maxspeed=90
(highway=motorway|trunk) {
maxspeed=130
foot=no
bicycle=no
}
is_in_polygon(place=city|hamlet|village|town) {
maxspeed=50
}
is_in_polygon(place=city|hamlet|village|town)
(highway=motorway|trunk)
{
maxspeed=80
}
}
___
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talk@openstreetmap.org
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Fwd: Re: zones for motorway/in town/ outof town?]
On Wed, 20 May 2009 14:04:36 +0100, Radomir Cernoch radomir.cern...@gmail.com wrote: MP píše v St 20. 05. 2009 v 14:16 +0200: I wonder, can we have at some place (wiki?) some definition file that will specify these per-country default limits in some machine-readable way? Yes, surely! My personal idea of best solution is to use the Semantic wiki, because it provides both machine-readable and human-readable format in one place. Agreed. This sounds like a very good idea. It's even planned to shift OSM from MediaWiki to Semantic Wiki as soon as the wiki will be running on a more powerful hardware (I hope this information is not outdated). Radomír Černoch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap software for vehicles fleet management system
On Mon, 25 May 2009 12:57:36 +0200, Ivan Garcia capisc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, does anybody knows of any open source software or web application that is useful to be used for a vehicles fleet management system ? (all vehicles carry a GPS unit) and the maps should be based on OpenStreetMap. Otherwise, we are looking forward to start it from zero with the help of the community, and contribute to OSM all the data gathered by the fleet in south east Asia. Best Regards. Ivan Garcia. Hi, I don't know such software in the non-commercial world. But if you write your own, I may help with protocolls. One of the things I'm writing for Traveling Salesman is a web-service to collect traffic information. A next step for me would then be to make a general protcoll that can carry much more data (like vehicle-positions, routes or voice-chat between multiple vehicles in a convoy). So we may make the protocolls between cars, servers and desktop- clients open and general enough so they can be supported by and usefully for many others here. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Hacking At Random 2009 (August 13-16)
Anyone comming to HAR2009 (August 13-16, 2009 hacker-camping in the netherlands) and looking for a village to camp in? Feel free to enter yourself! Or anyone with a pavilion, foldable table, fridge, cool lamps,... along the way (e.g. all of western Germany) or near the camp-area that we could borrow for the duration of the event? https://wiki.har2009.org/page/Village:Geography Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed Amenity Reorganization
On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:53:27 +0200 (CEST), Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl wrote: A reason to do better categorizations would be to ease conversion to mobile (or online) routeplanners, which already have some sort of categorization in amenities. Please give examples here. Are you sure there is just ONE way to categorize and that not every second application(not just routeplanner) uses another way to categorize things? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] AAAA openstreetmap still doesn't use ipv6
On 3 Jul 2009 08:47:04 -0400, Russ Nelson r...@cloudmade.com wrote: On Jul 3, 2009, at 8:15 AM, John Smith wrote: I'm still scratching my head as to why this isn't possible to be honest. It's possible, but it's pointless. First, there is no IPv4 to IPv6 transition plan. The two protocols don't coexist. Second, unless you That is absolutely wrong. They coexist on all my servers for years now and no customer ever reported having a problem. have an IPv4 address, you aren't on the Internet. Third, there are MORE THAN ENOUGH IPv4 addresses to go around. The problem is that there is no price for IPv4 addresses. They are priceless. There is no market for them. Consequently, they are misvalued, misallocated, and misplaced. Not relevant where a shortage comes from. As we can't influence it we have to deal with it. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is OpenAerialMap service dead?
On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 16:33:05 +0200 (CEST), Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de wrote: n others who wish to join start contributing aerial photos? I think the best would be to submit rectified photo's with a World file; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_file So, how do you rectify your photos? I tried to find a way quite a while ago but could not find any tools to do it that did not require weeks of intensive learning. Not a single graphical tool that allowed clicking on matching points at all. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:49:11 +0100, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote: Anyway, to draw on Frederik's workshop at SOTM the actual revert is in many ways the easy part - the hard thing is establishing the authority to do the revert. In other words the question of who gets to decide that an edit is bad and should be reverted. A revert is itself just a new changeset. It is not a deletion of an existing changeset. So any user has the rights to do a revert if and only of that user has the right to make an edit. Same semantics as a revert in Wikpedia (as long as a complete revert is technically possible). Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] maxheight/height
I am tagging both as maxheight. It is a restriction that you are not capable or allowed to pass a given node or a given way in any direction with a vehicle of greater height. That is also how I am evaluating maxheight and maxwidth in Traveling Salesman. Marcus On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:31:49 +0200, Aun Johnsen (via Webmail) skipp...@gimnechiske.org wrote: maxheight=* refers to legal maxheight, in some countries, such as brazil, there is a difference on legal height (restriction) and physical height/clearance (information sign). See my note on the discussion on the wiki key:height - if height is not to be used for this, than another tag is needed ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] maxheight/height
On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 00:22:54 +0200, Aun Johnsen (via Webmail) skipp...@gimnechiske.org wrote: I do not agree that they bouth should be treated as maxheight=* If my car with load that is 3m high, and maxheight=3m, but physical clearance is much higher,than you would pass at the speed limit, but if both maxheight and physical clearance is 3m, than I would need to slow down to almost crawl when passing the lowest point. maxheight can be 3m even if physical clearnance is 3.2m I am not using maxheight in any of the metrics that involve a travel-time to optimize for so it has no effect on the route other then allowing or disallowing that path at all. Thus at least for me it makes no difference. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] maxheight/height
On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 08:11:21 +1000, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 9:47 PM, John Smithdelta_foxt...@yahoo.com wrote: --- On Mon, 27/7/09, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: I think the bridge should be tagged. There was an overwhelming response on the main talk list that this be tagged as maxheight on the way that has the restriction, ie you can't go under the bridge unless you are under x metres. There are two issues here: 1) what should be tagged and 2) what should it be tagged with. For 1), what should be tagged? Definitely the bridge. For two reasons: firstly, clearance under a bridge is an attribute of the bridge. Wrong. It is an attribute of the ways below the bridge. because: 1) Multiple ways below a round bridge have different maxheight-values (happens in my place all the time) 2) Not only bridges have maxheight but also parking-lots, tunnels, ... 3) The way below the bridge does not intersect the bridge at all. There is no reference from the street below to indicate that there is a bridge at all. You would have to analyse the location and vector of all other ways in the map as one of them could be a bridge and you would have to do that for each and any way-segment you want to evaluate for routing. Bad idea. For 2), what should it be tagged with? I concede that a bridge tagged with height could be misinterpreted (as the actual height of the bridge or bridge construction), as could maxheight (as referring to a restriction involved with traveling on top of the bridge). We have tags maxheight, maxwidth, maxspeed, ... ele and height that are in wide use and have a well established meaning, well documented in the wiki. Period. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] maxheight/height
On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:27:52 +0200, Aun Johnsen (via Webmail) skipp...@gimnechiske.org wrote: I am not using maxheight in any of the metrics that involve a travel-time to optimize for so it has no effect on the route other then allowing or disallowing that path at all. Thus at least for me it makes no difference. Marcus It makes no difference for your routing software, but maybe I will make a routing software with that option? You don't need to. You may write just the metric and deploy it as a plugin (1 class and 1 xml-file, that's all that is required). It's simple. I'm looking forward to your rule. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Best-practice-idea traffic_sign
On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 01:07:08 +0200, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: 2. It says that the main use is for city_limit. Again, why not. But the other examples are very questionable : traffic_sign=maxspeed:30 or traffic_sign=DE:239 break some practices we had until now like key=value and not key=key:value or like key:country=value and not key=country:value. You can tag the sign as city_limit. It's a nice thing for rendering but be warned that it is completely useless for navigation. (For the later a polygon (e.g. place=*)describing where the city-limits are in all directions are needed as opposed to mapping the location of some signs on some roads that leave the city for various reasons.) Also keep in mind that there are 3 different city-limits. * where traffic is considered inside a build-up area (navigation) * where postal addresses contain to that city (searching) * where the outermost buildings end. (rendering) So, any comments about this Best-practice-idea process ? Is it possible to have a real discussion about the examples or is it too late ? It has been discussed at length before. Please consult the archive first. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Best-practice-idea traffic_sign
On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 02:08:28 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Well, I know about others: maxspeedtype=ITA:city for example, or maxspeed=DE:walk I don't understand why key:country=value is different to key=country:value but I would like to learn about it. In that one case it's okay. Reason: * There can only be ONE maxspeed on a road. ever! * What is tagged here is not a given speed-limitation but the fact that the default maxspeed of the country of italy for roads inside cities applies. I don't know anyone who actually evaluates that yet but given the disastrous state of missing city-polygons it may help in speed/time based routing-metrics. However as opposed to city-polygons it does not act as a city-limit to make postal address-searches better. (So you could get a more realistic ETA but get swamped with way too many roads that may be the one you want to navigate when searching for your destination.) Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] maxspeed tagging Was: Best-practice-idea t raffic_sign
On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 09:41:07 +0200, Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl wrote: Florian Lohoff wrote: Not only in a corner. In Germany the A3, going down the Elzer Berg (near Limburg an der Lahn in the eastward direction) has a speedlimit of 40 km/h on the right lane and 100 km/h (or 120? haven't been there in two years) on the left two lanes. That's no issue as it's 2 OSM-ways for the 2 directions of the motorway anyway. Did anything useful and actually used come out of that lane-discussion a few month ago? Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Crazy routing in OpenRouteService
On Sun, 9 Aug 2009 19:56:29 +1000, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: On Sun, 9 Aug 2009, Steve Hill wrote: Moving the destination slightly closer to another road causes sanity to be resumed. I misread sanity as salinity and wondered which ocean he was visiting next Interesting metric. Routing optimized for maximum buoyancy. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Routing over barrier nodes
On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 00:51:17 +0200, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/10 lulu-...@gmx.de: Currently the problem with routing is, that routing applications can not check for millions of nodes, but only for thousands of ways without performace problems. That results in the problem, that for example barrier bollards in the middle of the road can not be considered. I recommend to add a route_nodes=yes or router:check_nodes=yes to such ways, so that the routing software can check only the ways in first run and then check the nodes on ways only where this is set. Comments? Bad idea. Violates first normal form and just invites inconsistent data. Traveling Salesman (to speak about mine )already checks the nodes on evaluated ways and works just fine without such a thing. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] address interpolation
On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:51:35 +1000, James Livingston doc...@mac.com wrote: On 28/09/2009, at 2:22 PM, Marcus Wolschon wrote: 25A-25C should work with addr:interpolation=alphabetic . However not all software that supports interpolation at all, supports this interpolation-mode yet. 25-25A would not. I'm not sure you how you can interpolate things like this correctly if you're just using a single interpolation way. For example I've seen both 23-25-25a-27 and 23-25a-25-27, with the 'a' house being whichever one was built second or isn't the primary residence. Basically...you can't. Whenever I've encountered something like this, I've just broken the way up, so that there is one for ...-23, two plain nodes to 25 and 25a, and another way for 27-. Thats okay. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addressing Question
On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:29:14 -0500, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 9:14 AM, Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com wrote: It's a fairly well established convention that in OSM it's the houses/plots, not the road centrelines, that are addressed. But that doesn't always reflect reality. The reality, at least in many parts of the world, is that the streets are given blocks of potential addresses, and the houses/plots/whatever are given actual addresses from those potential address blocks. So your point being? These blocks can be interpolation-ways next to the way and if you like relations you can have both grouped in an associatedStreet-relation. I'd say it's better to approximate the gap between the road and the houses (10m?) than to just put it on the centreline due to that being easier. First of all, how would you approximate the gap? You mean by hand? 10m along the normal of the road. Secondly, what if the houses aren't yet there? Tiger address data represents *potential* address blocks, not *actual* address blocks. There may or may not be any actual houses along those roads. Then we have to assume it's there until a mapper who can actually look for houses can correct this. That's the best we can do. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] NearMap and OpenAerialMap
On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:19:57 +1000, morb@beagle.com.au wrote: Just a quick thought I just realised that NearMap is doing most of the job of the OpenAerialMap concept. I wonder if there is some scope to combine the efforts? http://www.nearmap.com/community/contribute.aspx Contrary to OpenAerialMap I find no mention of any way to upload your own aerial photos at all. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping everything as areas
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:11:29 +0100, Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org wrote: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason's diary entry last week (http://j.mp/8ESP8o) stired my interest. Using a few examples, he showed how mapping everything as an area - or as a volume - makes ultimate sense. Should we go for it now ? Not really. At least not this or next year. That is the realm of city-planing where you need to know the number of stones to pave a sidewalk. We have a road-map. And...btw..nowhere near the accuracy required to map the width of sidewalks, space between sidewalk and road,... Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] cloudmade maps copyright terms and conditions
On Tue, 1 Dec 2009 13:58:35 +0100, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: fine, but to me it seems it doesn't care for the viral aspects of our current license, that is: every derived work (derived from our data) must have the same license: cc-by-sa 2.0 A website is no derived work of a map presented in it. It is not adding any data to the map or changing the map itself in a significant way. Merely including something is not relevant. Just like Linux-Distributions containing non-free software and lots of unaltered GPL-software. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] donating read-only api-mirrors
Hello, what about packaging everything one needs to set up a read-only api-server that applies the minutely diffs and re-importes the planet lets say once a month? Many do not need data that is accurate up to an hour but as there are no other servers they have to query the main-api-server anyway. Packaged up for an averare unix-guy to install in an apache-vhost, maybe with a central round-robin-dns over all such api-mirrors we can take a lot of load from the main server. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] donating read-only api-mirrors
Soyour point being? Are you giving Pro, Contra, an offer to help or a helpful suggestion? Marcus On 6 Feb 2009 09:35:21 +0100, Russ Nelson r...@cloudmade.com wrote: This is the Wikipedia model. If you're not logged-in and you're not editing, you NEVER touch the main server. You're always accessing a cache server. On Feb 6, 2009, at 8:28 AM, marcus.wolsc...@googlemail.com wrote: what about packaging everything one needs to set up a read-only api-server that applies the minutely diffs and re-importes the planet lets say once a month? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] donating read-only api-mirrors
On Fri, 06 Feb 2009 15:16:28 +0100, Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de wrote: Florian Lohoff wrote: API 0.7 should contain a referral as LDAP does - So a client could connect to a cluster of read-only copies and once you write to it you get a referral to the master database. Synchronization is a big issue here but it should be a good point for scalability ... I wonder; could we solve this by just sending the history table with a certain key? What for? Your have a version-attribute that tells the server what version your chances are based on. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] donating read-only api-mirrors
On Fri, 06 Feb 2009 15:31:10 +0100, Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de wrote: marcus.wolsc...@googlemail.com wrote: On Fri, 06 Feb 2009 15:16:28 +0100, Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de wrote: Florian Lohoff wrote: API 0.7 should contain a referral as LDAP does - So a client could connect to a cluster of read-only copies and once you write to it you get a referral to the master database. Synchronization is a big issue here but it should be a good point for scalability ... I wonder; could we solve this by just sending the history table with a certain key? What for? Your have a version-attribute that tells the server what version your chances are based on. In that case you could require all the data from that version on :) Hence have your own mirror with version history :) I understood referral in a way that the client is told to direct all write-queries to the main-api -server. That one of cause can tell you the for any entity you upload the version-number given by the client is no longer the latest version and provide the latest version of such entities. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] donating read-only api-mirrors
On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 10:23:22 +0100, Jonas Krückel (John07) o...@jonas-krueckel.de wrote: Am 06.02.2009 um 08:28 schrieb marcus.wolsc...@googlemail.com: Hello, what about packaging everything one needs to set up a read-only api-server that applies the minutely diffs and re-importes the planet lets say once a month? Many do not need data that is accurate up to an hour but as there are no other servers they have to query the main-api-server anyway. Packaged up for an averare unix-guy to install in an apache-vhost, maybe with a central round-robin-dns over all such api-mirrors we can take a lot of load from the main server. I think you know about ROMA and TRAPI. But i think you are speaking about a exact readonly-copy of the api. No, I was indeed speaking about data that is a few minutes (/hours/days) old. I was not aware of ROMA and it seems to be exactly what I was aiming for. There is no need to get test-data for development, map-downloads by or for navigation-systems and anything that does not require editing of the most recent state to cause load on a central api-server. Thank you. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] donating read-only api-mirrors
On Fri, 06 Feb 2009 11:25:45 +0100, Mathieu Arnold m...@mat.cc wrote: +--On 6 février 2009 11:12:29 +0100 Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de wrote: | Mathieu Arnold wrote: | +--On 6 février 2009 10:23:22 +0100 Jonas Krückel (John07) | o...@jonas-krueckel.de wrote: | | I think you know about ROMA and TRAPI. But i think you are speaking | | about a exact readonly-copy of the api. | | Well, ROMA could be extended to an exact read only copy, once all t...@h | load is all sent to the TRAPI cluster (which throws away all the tags | not needed | | If you just allow minutely diffs to be eaten as updates. Then you are | set. (That is what I did.) I'm not certain we're talking of the same thing, I see no relation between the minute diff and the exactness of the API, for now, ROMA only serves /api/0.5/map?bbox=foo,bar if it is to replicate the API, it needs to serve all the /api/0.5/node way relation... It does not? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ROMA does not mention that it does not implement the full API. btw, is it 0.6 -capable already? Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Long Ways and API 0.6 - multirelations
On Sun, 8 Feb 2009 22:24:47 +, Dave Stubbs osm.l...@randomjunk.co.uk wrote: Umm.. yes. You've managed to get the complete wrong end of the stick :-) I was saying that's what relations are there for. You need the route relation so you can represent easily both a local and international route over the same ways, but it's no big deal if you have to split the 420km international route into three sections. Do you have a wiki-page that defines how these multi-relations are to look like and what the exact semantics are? My software works well with some relations but has no support for such multi-relations yet. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Long Ways and API 0.6 - multirelations
On Mon, 09 Feb 2009 08:54:52 +0100, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: I don't think Dave was thinking of anything more than two different relations (partly) using the same ways. That would not warrant any special kind of relation. For situations in which you want relations contained in relations - e.g. in a situation where a nationwide cycle route comprises 5.000 ways and thus cannot be expressed in one single relation -, what I suggest is creating a number of sub relations that are members of a super relation with the same tags as the sub relation. (The super relation might have a different name tag from the sub relations, in case you want to name your sub-relations blah cycleway, southern section or so). The sub relations will not receive any extra tags saying that they are sub relations. Some hint that a super-relation exists would be helpfull here. Else it will happen that the sub-relation AND the super-relation are processed (in my case: rendered if they are tagged as type=street). I could of cause internally add such a hint automatically with a tag in a special namespace that is removed before exporting/uploading that part of the map again (so it never ends up in the main-map or an editor). Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] josm plugin request: addressing with Karlsruhe Schema
On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 17:29:04 +0800, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Maybe a plugin that can: when I select a node/building and a street, it fills the name for addr:street from selected street. And the assoviatedStreet -relation. ;) If the first is done, then doing the second is a no-brainer for a plugin. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Beta testers required for new Windows Mobile OSM Client
Hello George, sounds very nice. I just downloaded it and will give it a try this weekend (I'm currently roaming, so no network on the Touch Pro.) Marcus On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:51:47 -0500, George Styles geo...@ripnet.co.uk wrote: Hi, Ive written some software for Windows Mobile to make on-the-road contribution to OSM possible. If any Windows Mobile 6 owning people would like to beta-test it, ive stuck it up at http://release.georgestyles.co.uk/GeorgeMap ive stuck some screenshots here http://release.georgestyles.co.uk/GeorgeMap/ScreenShots/Default.aspx Its only currently useful for filling in missing names from streets which already exist (without a name tag). It cannot yet create / edit the actual nodes that make a street (apart from splitting an existing street). At the moment its simply freeware. I want to GPL it, but need to open a sourceforge account etc etc, and havent had time yet... Features are * GPS Support (using WM GPS driver) * Display OSM tiles from MapNik, OSMARender, CycleMap or CloudMade * Query OSM for streets and nodes in the visible area * Displays unnamed streets in red, named ones in green (and ones named by you in lighter green so you can see the difference you are making) * Can query GPS points (although until I add node editing, that is kind of useless) * Program can check for newer versions and automatically install them (if you ask it to...) * Multi-threaded - tiles /data are downloaded in the background, as are uploads of changes. * Ability to name unnamed streets (or change the name of existing ones) * Offline edit model - edits are held in the phone until you choose to sync them. This is needed because mobile coverage is not 100% * Split / join ways (join dosent quite always work properly yet) * Current GPS trail overlaid on map so you can see where you have been (plan to upload trails to OSM in near future) Should I email this to the dev list as well, since ive done some dev??? g ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Splitting Long Ways/Polygons
On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 19:50:07 +0100, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: For long waterways, it is absoutely usual to split them into a number of ways of manageable size (think not only of the API limit but of someone downloading an area touched by the river in JOSM!). Optionally, use a relation to group the parts. What is the correct relation to use here? I am only aware of relations tagged type=street to group long streets. I use them when combining long streets for low zoom levels and would like to do the same for long waterways and coastlines. The same is true for large areas, with the exception that you *must* use a relation (see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Relation:multipolygon, under advanced multipolygons). When polygons and roads are split, I am currently relying in my API0.6-code on the correct order of elements (relations are ordered with api 0.6). If one way does not fit where the last ended a new polygon/polyline is started. Does anyone have an algorithm to combine these that can work recursively starting with a single way and using no global searches (e.g. only getWaysForNode(), never getAllWays(Bounds)). Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap on HAR2009
Hello, whoever plans to be at the Hacking At Random 2009 (large hacker-camping in the netherlands this summer)... I created a project-page for OpenStreetMap in their wiki. If anyone knows that he/she will come and can answer questions, present something of his/her own or plains looks for a place to hang around, feel free to edit that wiki-page. I am also looking for similar projects to get together a Geography-Village. Marcus https://wiki.har2009.org/page/OpenStreetMap https://wiki.har2009.org/page/Village:Geography ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] oneway yes or true
On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 11:36:18 +0100 (CET), Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl wrote: Whatever it is going to be: it would be nice if the validator plugin in JOSM will accept this. Currently it's programmed to accept yes/no as a proper tag and true/false is flagged as incorrect. That's why I change these tags to yes/no if I encounter them (with the validator). If I'm then in an editwar with Sylvain, I hope we can do it face to face with some wine and cheese ;) Just a note: As a developer I am accepting the following values in the Traveling Salesman navigation system (case ignored): no false 0 -1 all other values are ignored and treated as yes (why else would you have a oneway-tag). Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] oneway yes or true
On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 11:55:26 +0100, sly (sylvain letuffe) li...@letuffe.org wrote: no false 0 -1 all other values are ignored and treated as yes (why else would you have a oneway-tag). Ouch ! While using your software, I'll be extreamly carefull on the road ;-) Don't want to be droven on an undefined or other or maybe oneway The opposite is true. undefined it is either a oneway=true or not. In both cases I am allowed to drive it like a oneway=true and it is the safest thing to do, to ignore this way in the opposite direction as it is unclear if I am allowed to drive there or not. Barely 200 roads in all of europe are not something I would worry about. It's not like you can switch your eyes and brain off just because you have a navigation system. Well, anyway. We should better document these possible values in the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:oneway That's the place where mappers and developers look up the semantics of key-value -pairs. Marcus Europe counts : oneway | count + yes| 466883 1 | 104487 true | 100204 no | 35883 false | 3519 -1 | 2683 undefined |197 0 | 24 unknown| 11 both | 11 other | 9 y | 7 ???| 7 Yes| 6 yees | 6 variable | 6 morning to south, evening to North | 5 FIXME | 5 alternate | 4 2 | 4 True | 3 ye | 3 yes/-1 | 3 R760 | 3 true; 1; true | 2 yes; yes; true; yes; yes | 2 hy | 2 no;yes | 2 +1 | 2 maybe | 2 no?| 2 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] oneway yes or true
On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:15:11 +0100, sly (sylvain letuffe) li...@letuffe.org wrote: On Friday 27 February 2009 12:06, you wrote: A good way would obviously be to change the map features and then the mapnik and osmarender stylesheets. As much as we like it or not, the rendered map is a big incensitive to tag one way (no pun intended) or another. Renaud. Looks like Ed was faster than me doing it on the wiki. Also I would have prefered a bit of talking since some people seams to prefere 1/0 rather than yes/no I guess the tagwatch-posting made all talking about preferences pointless. Mappers clearly favor yes and no. BTW, I added values-sections to the english, german and polish wiki-pages and stated that the semantics of other values are undefined and what cases may most likely happen. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] oneway yes or true
On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:32:38 +0100, Nop ekkeh...@gmx.de wrote: marcus.wolsc...@googlemail.com schrieb: Just a note: As a developer I am accepting the following values in the Traveling Salesman navigation system (case ignored): no false 0 -1 all other values are ignored and treated as yes (why else would you have a oneway-tag). So you are treating -1 as no? No, I accept the value -1 (and interprete it as a oneway=yes in the opposite direction). That's what I believe to have written. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] oneway yes or true - reversible lanes
On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 13:36:23 +0100, Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es wrote: El Viernes, 27 de Febrero de 2009, marcus.wolsc...@googlemail.com escribió: all other values are ignored and treated as yes (why else would you have a oneway-tag). Reversible lanes on a separated carriageway... That is not something a routing enging can work with anyway as there is no rule as to when this is oneway=true and when this it oneway=-1. Usually is does not matter anyway as it's just one lane and there are free lanes for each direction at all times. So routing is not affected. (I route on streets, not lanes.) Even if the road is completely closed for your direction...well.. then you will have to calculate a different route. An inconvenience caused by seldom, undocumented values in the map. Do you have a schema to describe these that is in actual use? Then please document it. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] oneway yes or true
On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 06:40:44 -0800 (PST), Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: If we produce a wonderful world map but developers have to jump through a few hoops to use it, a) we have a wonderful world map, therefore b) people will - and are doing - produce the tools that jump through the hoops. If we make it unnecessarily complicated to add data (and that includes using jargon words like true when yes is obvious) then we don't get the mappers, so we don't get the wonderful world map. Actually it's the other way around. We have tens of thousands of mappers but are lacking developers on every corner. ..and every second mapper is screaming then add support for (whatever special case) in The (Routers|Maps|Whatever). (usually without an idea what list of programs is affected) Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Tags for signposting
Hello everyone, does anyone know if we already have some tags for signposting? (tagging what city-names are printed on direction-signs at intersections) I would like implement driving instructions like In 800m exit the motorway, then stay left towards 'city1,city2,city3'. for Traveling Salesman. Marcus http://travelingsales.sourceforge.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tags for signposting
On Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:43:35 +0100, Yann Coupin y...@coupin.net wrote: While I was discussing my proposal for route_instructions, someone pointed me to existing proposal that covered part of what I was proposing. Signposts were part of that list... http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Destination_Signs Thanks. Tagwatch shows next to no usage of these yet but I added phrases and german translations to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sample_driving_instructions and will see about adding support for driving directions that make use of these in the next days/weeks as I feel this to be important for good driving directions in a navigation software. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] highway=secondary_link
On Mon, 02 Mar 2009 11:09:16 +, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote: Andrew Chadwick (email lists) wrote: Grant Slater wrote: Annoying... Stop stripping highway = xxx_link The examples you gave were all of the completely undocumented highway=secondary_link. It would be incorrect to say that the edits apply to highway=*_link; I can see several trunk_link and primary_link ways in my area completely unaffected by this edit. But that doesn't excuse bad bot behaviour. This is bad bot behaviour. Indeed, just because a tag is not mentioned on the wiki does not mean people should go round removing it! I completely agree. The wiki is a guideline. It is neither complete nor completely authorative. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Traveling Salesman - version 0.9.5 released
Version 0.9.5 of the Traveling Salesman navigation-system for OpenStreetMap has just been released. * With an improved plugin-system we now have an optional speechPack to add voice-output. (Note that higher quality voices and phonems for other languages can be installed later.) * Thanks to your help in the OSM-Wiki (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sample_driving_instructions) we now not only have much improved driving-directions but also the first translated driving-instructions. * There are some major speed-improvements in the reference-implementation of the OsmBin file-format and the LODDataSet (automatic Generation of simplified low zoom-levels). * You can now file feature-requests, bug-reports and complains via the help-menu. * Testing without a GPS-device has become much easier with the new gpx-file -controlpanel reachable from the debug-menu. (fast forward and slow down in gpx-files) As we want to REACH VERSION 1.0 BY THE 23.3.2009 with the introduction of the OpenStreetMap API 0.6 we need YOUR HELP. We NEED BUG-REPORTS, feedback, ideas but also patches, plugins and feature-request. Tell us what needs improvement! Tell us what we did wrong! Tell us what needs better documentation! http://apps.sourceforge.net/phpbb/travelingsales/viewtopic.php?f=3t=29 http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=203597 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] What if ODBl 1.0 is superseeded by ODBl 2.0
On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 03:33:45 -0800 (PST), Donald Allwright donald_allwri...@yahoo.com wrote: I would be very keen to take a leaf out of the GPL world here, and license the data under ODBL 1.0 or later. That means if and when 2.0 comes out (which it surely will) the data are automatically covered by the new version. When 2.0 does come out, that changes to ODBL 2.0 or later for all new data I agree completely. If we don't do this we will have this mess again in a few years. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice
On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 14:51:28 +0100, Pierre-André Jacquod pjacq...@alumni.ethz.ch wrote: A possibility would be to never use name=, but only name:XX= and have a tag name:local=XX in order to indicate which is the local one. For rendering, a default rule could be that if there is only one name:XX=xxx without name:local=... then it will use the name:XX whatever XX is. Your name:local is the same as the name everyone is already using. Few things actually have names in more then one language on the map. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] 0.6 move and downtime (re-scheduled) - TS 1.0 also postponed
On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 16:00:19 +, Grant Slater openstreet...@firefishy.com wrote: Dear all The API downtime scheduled for the 0.6 API transition has been postponed due to delays acquiring the new database server. The re-scheduled API downtime for the 0.6 API upgrade is now the weekend of the 17-20th April 2009. Original announcement... http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-January/033294.html Developer information: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Protocol_Version_0.6 As Traveling Salesman also makes use of API 0.6 the release of it's Version 1.0 must also be postponed to 2009-04-17 . Current 0.9 -versions are very stable already but direct map-download/update for small areas from the API does not work until API 0.6 has gone public. http://travelingsales.sourceforge.net Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] California bill to limit detail on online mappingtools
On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 12:28:40 +0100, Juan Lucas Dominguez Rubio jldoming...@prodevelop.es wrote: That's ridiculous. The solution is obvious: if a way or point is tagged as amenity=school, etc, then the database will automatically add noise to the coordinates: lat = lat + 0.001 * random(1000) On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 10:27 AM, OJ W May I suggest a new tag: landuse=blur ROTFL. But remember to only apply it to schools of one state of one country. We don't want the rest of the planet to look like fools too. ;) (Who is to blame for voting that guy into office?) Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] California bill to limit detail on online mapping tools
On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 15:35:30 +0100, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: Pieren Pieren wrote: May I suggest a new tag: landuse=blur Superb. I've been wanting a tag like that for a while. I have now used it for the first time, in a location not that far from where I live: Arf, no ! If you do that, I will have to write a taging proposal on the wiki and open a vote in the next few days ;-) I propose that amenity=bar implies a landuse=blur! All in favor raise their mouse! *g* Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Traveling Salesman is looking for a logo/icon
Hello everyone, with API 0.6 also Version 1.0 of Traveling Salesman is comming up. (http://travelingsales.sourceforge.net) It is a navigation-program for OpenStreetMap started in 2007 that is especially modular and well documented to apeal to developers wanting to experiment with advanced features no commercial navigator can offer. As it's version 1.0 draws near there is still one thing missing ...an icon or logo. If you have any suggestion as to the possible content of such an icon or maybe even some skill at drawing/pixeling some draft please feel invited to join the discussion in the forum below. Forum-Thread: http://apps.sourceforge.net/phpbb/travelingsales/viewtopic.php?f=7t=37 Regards, Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Traveling Salesman is looking for a logo/icon
The current logo-proposals for Traveling Salesman at http://apps.sourceforge.net/phpbb/travelingsales/viewtopic.php?f=7t=37 make use of a part of the OSM-logo. Who can be asked for a definite answer about if we as a Navigator for OSM-maps can do so (copyright any stuff). Marcus On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 10:22:16 +0100, marcus.wolsc...@googlemail.com wrote: Hello everyone, with API 0.6 also Version 1.0 of Traveling Salesman is comming up. (http://travelingsales.sourceforge.net) It is a navigation-program for OpenStreetMap started in 2007 that is especially modular and well documented to apeal to developers wanting to experiment with advanced features no commercial navigator can offer. As it's version 1.0 draws near there is still one thing missing ...an icon or logo. If you have any suggestion as to the possible content of such an icon or maybe even some skill at drawing/pixeling some draft please feel invited to join the discussion in the forum below. Forum-Thread: http://apps.sourceforge.net/phpbb/travelingsales/viewtopic.php?f=7t=37 Regards, Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Reverse look-up gazetteer
On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 12:01:12 +0100, paul youlten p...@yellowikis.org wrote: Does anyone know if there is there a web service that lets me take the latitude and longitude of a node and establish which country, state/county/province, city and Zip/post code the node is in? Not yet. Considering the many missing place-boundary-poylgons and border-polygons (grouped in a relation) and the efford required to collect zip-regions as polygons this will take quite a while. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Reverse look-up gazetteer
On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:09:21 +0100, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/3/19 paul youlten p...@yellowikis.org: Does anyone know if there is there a web service that lets me take the latitude and longitude of a node and establish which country, state/county/province, city and Zip/post code the node is in? I don't know of a specific web service but it turns out using the usual API you can find the city name quite easily, I first saw it done in the party render script: http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/rendering/party/render.py . The post code and other data you would have to pull from somewhere else as OSM doesn't store those except for a few places now. Hello Andrezej, I read the source-code and it just looks for a node with a place-tag exists in a certain bounding box, expecting to find exactly one. This will fail if: * there are more then 1 place-nodes in the bounding box * the city is too large the the node is not in the bounding-box * the location does not belong to the city but the center of some village is nearby * the location is part of a place=hamlet or anything but city, village or town It's also quite expensive to do a bbox-query like that for more then a few locations. So it's neither easy nor anywhere near reliable. It's just a quick hack that works in some cases. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Reverse look-up gazetteer
This will fail if: * there are more then 1 place-nodes in the bounding box Why not automatically choose the closest place. Possible. What you get is the dreaded street near city. You don't get a defined getCityForStreet(street) that is guaranteed to return a correct result if it returns a non-null result. Lets face it. Everyone else manages this (tomtom, google, garmin, ) but city-limits, country-limits and zip-codes in OSM are a mess and in desperate need of repair. * the city is too large the the node is not in the bounding-box * the location does not belong to the city but the center of some village is nearby Yes, then again with any such reverse gazeteer you need to choose an arbitrary distance to decide what point is in the city and what is outside. Some localities have an associated landuse=residential. That should be a polygon tagged as place=(city|village|...), name=name. It often coincides with a landuse but landuse is a rendered area and a city is made up of many, one or no such areas while it has exactly one circumsizing polygon. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Reverse look-up gazetteer
On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:38:58 +, Someoneelse li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk wrote: marcus.wolsc...@googlemail.com wrote: Lets face it. Everyone else manages this (tomtom, google, garmin, ) I'm not sure that everyone else does make too good a job of it. Google has quite a few village placenames in the wrong place near me (Derbyshire, UK). Interesting. They seem to be very accurate whenever I use them. Maybe its different for other maps. The free satnav on my Blackberry is OK with UK postcodes but struggles with smaller placenames and street or feature in placename. You said free satnav? Does it use a commercial map? I was comparing us with established commercial applications that use the established $$$-maps. What I like in MapGuide or tomtom for example is typing in a city and getting all streets, typing in a house-number and getting only the results that have this house-number in the street. This works like a charm even with the smallest villages without presenting me streets from the next village. (When setting your targets, why settle for lower quality then to be better then the ones you like to replace.) Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Category:TagsSupportedBy
I added a category Category:TagsSupportedBy and tagged some pages with it as a test. How usefully do you find this? Should we do something like this? By design such a list can never be complete but combined with tagwatch it could be a good way to consolidate the list of tags some more and provide better feedback on how well a tag is established. We do have tags that are still in proposed -state that are interpreted by applications. We have tags that are interpreted by many applications but seldomly used and there are bound to be tags that are in the map but not interpreted by any application at all. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Category:TagsSupportedBy
On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 12:03:14 +0200, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de
wrote:
marcus.wolsc...@googlemail.com wrote:
I added a category Category:TagsSupportedBy and tagged some pages with
it
as a test.
I'm not sure why you called the category TagsSupportedBy when you want
to apply it to keys and especially relations, too. Wouldn't a simple
Supported by or Features supported by or something like that fit
better?
I'm not sure what you mean.
Nodes, Ways and Relations are identified by Tags.
If you apply a category to to a Key that this would mean
that all or at least all major values for that key are
supported.
Maybe we Supported by would be better.
I am against naming it Feature as a feature in the context
of an application is something completely different then a
feture in the context of a map. Thus it would create confusion.
Also, I don't know why you left out spaces. CamelCase is, imo,
less human-friendly.
Well... I'm used to writing names in CamelCase all day. It happens.
Except that I generally like the idea. I wonder, however, how we should
handle partial support. Especially with more complicated stuff like
restriction or multipolygon relations, many applications support only a
subset of the possibilities.
Not at all.
It's not supposed to be perfect.
* The list of supported tags is never complete
* The list of values for a tag may change after adding the category
* The tag may not be supported in all cases or for all purposed or in all
configurations
This is mentioned in the individual category-pages.
Such a limitation does not change the fact that the tag is
evaluated at all and thus it makes sense to apply it wherever
it shall be applied.
The only fundamental problem I see in the long term is the amount of
applications that will be added to each and every page. This will
potentially make categories unusable. Maybe it would be better to create
templates to be used at the bottom of each page? You could get the list
of supported features by checking template inclusions, and it would
allow you to choose an appropriate style, maybe expand/collapse the box
to save screen space and so on.
Sounds better. However I have no idea how these templates with named
parameters
work. I've only used positional parameters {{{1}}} in mediawiki up to now
and looking at the template-pages for Tag and Key it gets quite confusing.
Marcus
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Re: [OSM-talk] Category:TagsSupportedBy
On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 21:34:36 +0200, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de
wrote:
A relation isn't just a set of tags. It requires certain members and
roles (which aren't tags). Thus, a relation isn't, as the category name
would suggest, a tag supported by X (it's a relation supported by X),
whereas the relation's type=xyz tag would indeed be a tag supported by
X. But that's not a very relevant issue.
I have not seen any valir relation without a type -tag yet.
After all, you need to know in what way (and not just in what role)
they are related.
Well, I'm no MediaWiki expert either, so I'm not sure about the best way
of creating that sort of template.
Something like Babel (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Babel)
templates would probably be easy, but I've got no idea what the
performance effects of something like that would be.
I've never seen that
{{#if:{{{1|}}}|XXX}} -construct.
Is that a mediawiki-plugin?
Marcus
Anyway, I'd definitely like a statement from someone with MediaWiki
experience before creating some widely-used template. Of course,
categories are the simpler solution and could theoretically be exchanged
with something else by a bot if we encounter problems.
Tobias Knerr
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging best practices
On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:53:12 -0400, PAA poule...@gmail.com wrote: What is the preferred way to design tags: First scenario * One key, multiple values * Multiple keys, single values Using the proposed shop=pet as an example: * grooming=yes: The shop offers pet grooming services * kennel=yes: The shop offers kennel (pet keeping or tending) services * training=yes: The shop offers obedience training services Or * service=(grooming;kennel;training) shop:pet:grooming=yes shop:pet:kennel=yes shop:pet:training=yes sounds reasonable. Second scenario *One node, multiple functions *Multiple nodes, single functions The example for this scenario is a subway entrance that is also a bus station entrance. Should the node be tagged both railway=subway_entrance and amenity=bus_station (er...think it's amenity), or should two nodes be created, even though there is one entrance (the same situation could as easily apply to an area, too. If it's in the exact same location and tagging is possible, I suggest using one node tagged as both. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Category:TagsSupportedBy
On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 08:45:12 +0200, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de
wrote:
marcus.wolsc...@googlemail.com wrote:
Something like Babel
(http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Babel)
templates would probably be easy, but I've got no idea what the
performance effects of something like that would be.
I've never seen that
{{#if:{{{1|}}}|XXX}} -construct.
Is that a mediawiki-plugin?
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ParserFunctions
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions
Didn't even know it was an extension until now, as many major wikis
(especially Wikimedia's) seem to have it installed.
I've written quite complex mediawiki-extensions myself.
Thus I was puzzled that this would be in the core. I
would have been bound to see it a some point. ;)
(It does not seem to be installed in the Sourceforge-hosted mediawiki.
I'm getting quite frustrated with the limitations they have compared
to installing y mediawiki/phpBB/... yourself in Sourceforge.)
Marcus
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Re: [OSM-talk] turn restriction relations: via
On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 08:55:54 -0400, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: As you can see there is a roundabout, but there is also a dual carriageway through the middle with the flow controlled by traffic lights. If you are in the lanes which go through as the dual carriageway you can't turn onto the roundabout, and if you are in the lanes that lead onto the roundabout you can't turn onto the dual carriageway lanes. I think for the relations to work I might have to split the roundabout from a closed way into a number of sections, but I've always drawn roundabouts as closed ways before. Will splitting it cause issues with anything else? Although I might not have to split as the via (node) will indicate where the restriction actually applies, even when the dual carriageway lane crosses the roundabout at two nodes. Or perhaps I could just split the dual carriageway lanes somewhere in the middle of the roundabout to make things easier for me to work out what restrictions I need to add. I haven't thought this through, but I wonder if you could add relations to describe road groups, putting all the dual carriageway ways in one relation, and all the roundabout and link ways in another, and then adding a turns_prohibited restriction between those two relations. This seems pleasing since there is logically one extra rule to explain to humans - no turning between the roundabout and the dual carriageways that cross it. Of course this nested relation/restriction complicates routing software but perhaps not too badly. There is no need for any additional relations to describe these turn-restrictions. It's just a bunch of only_ahead. However a relation to group the left and right lane of a dual-carriageway is a very welcome thing for many algorithms. What about: type=road to collect the ways of a long street and if it's a dual-carriageway some may have a role of left or right while for single carriageways and sections where the ways are joined temporarily have some other role. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addr:streetnumber:first;last:left;right
On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 23:54:39 +0200, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote: now I'm sure that at some point a lot of people will want to use OSM on the Garmins (very few people do now) and the converter will have to translate the Karlsruhe scheme back into the Garmin/canvec/geobase scheme. This can be done by converting the addr:interpolation ways into new garmin ways that will have the address information but will not be routable - but then they will be disconnected from the road network and the routing may fail. The other option is to *project* the lateral addr:interpolation ways onto the street segment, but this is a little more complex to implement (imagine zigzagging streets and zigzagging addr:interpolation ways) See addr:street and relations with type=associatedStreet on how to make this mapping easier. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/House_numbers/Karlsruhe_Schema#Giving_hints_for_choosing_the_street_.28optional.29 The projection is actually quite easy to implement. Here is an implementation: http://travelingsales.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/travelingsales/trunk/libosm/src/org/openstreetmap/osm/data/searching/HouseNumberHelper.java?view=markup Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addr:streetnumber:first;last:left;right
On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 00:11:24 +0200, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote: Sound cool! One suggestion: As this is automated anyway, try to add hints about what street the houses belong to. easy to implement version: Simply add a tag add:street=nam to the interpolation-ways slightly less easy to implement but easier to evaluate in address-search: add an associateStreet- relation I will download that area one of these days and play around with my address-seach a bit, okay? Sounds great. The problem with associating the addr:interpolation ways with their associatedStreet is that the UMP (imported) data generally contains the colloquial street names - abbreviated, and without first names if the street is named after a person. In OSM data however, we expand them to full names and so the addr:street value often differs from the actual street name - they can still be associated, but the algorightm will be a little more complex, probably will need to allow for a small *lexical distance* between the names (i.e. like google search). You know the OSM-way of the street, don't you? You can use exactly the value of it's name-attribute. Or you can use the type=associatedstreet-relation. That one works without street-names and is just 2 relation with 1 tag and 2 members. Should be simple to code. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addr:streetnumber:first;last:left;right
On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 20:56:59 -0400 (EDT), Steve Singer ssinger...@sympatico.ca wrote: On Mon, 6 Apr 2009, Sam Vekemans wrote: addr:alternatenumber house number If a object has two numbers. Better use addr:housenumber=first;second *** So the line can show a long stretch from second where it would be the 'last'? Would this work? Drawing a long straight line from the first to last end points would probably work fine for address interpolation type applications (if the application projects the point onto the road) but it you wouldn't want the renderer to draw that line, for a curved road it would look really bad. You said you had these housenumber-data for the segments, not for the whole way, did you? Then there is no issue with curvy roads. And for the off-set, ill leave that for the expert. ... since the canvec2osm (using simple java) script is not really 'automatated'. .the geobase2osm (using python) script is. Well, at least add your data to the way as canvec:housenr_left_start= and similar, so the data does not get lost. If we want to use a Karlsruhe scheme then this will need a script similar to what the ump2osm is doing, I think we are best waiting till someone can do that with offsets and relations to the road (the complexity of the script will probably be comparable to the ump2osm script). What language do you need it to be in? What data-model are you using for the osm-data (how can the scripe get the way? ...and the nodes for the way's waynodes? how can it output new osm-entities? how can it search an area if some osm-entities are already present?) If we want to attach the tags directly to the road nodes themselves then you would need a script that get add these tags to existing nodes (doable, but neither canvec2osm or geobase2osm alter existing nodes/ways) You could store it in a new relation added to the way+node but I guess noone would find it there. So I think best option is still the same, keep the streetnames.osm files in the canvec2osm script (but as a reference, not to be imported), and let the geobase2osm script deal with it.. So hopefully we can help out SteveS with the scripting as much as we can. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addr:streetnumber:first;last:left;right
On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 16:12:07 +0200, Florian Lohoff f...@rfc822.org wrote: On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 08:44:37PM +0200, andrzej zaborowski wrote: We add a addr:interpolation on each side of the way with an arbitrary offset and with some simple heuristics to make it look correct (although obviously it needs a manual check like all imported data - to see that it corresponds with reality). I didn't add any address relations but addr:street value can be used to add relations automatically if needed. Here's a sample: My guess is that addr:interpolation ways are overkill. As the OSR Project shows people tend to interpolate regardless of the additional tags telling them to do so. When you have 3-7 fixed housenumbers on the road just interpolate. People do, people are intelligent. Software does not. Software that searches for addresses needs to know how to interpolate (does that city use even/odd or left-up/right-down or house-numbers running around the block or whatever?), that 5A is near 5, all the places where a house cannot possible be, ... Given only a few house-numbers at intersections even people get it wrong quite often if they are used to other numbering-schemas then the one used there. This is a very, very complex thing to do once you think about it and it is still very hard to get it right even with the Karlsruhe Schema. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addr:streetnumber:first;last:left;right
On 7 Apr 2009 21:08:48 -0400, Russ Nelson r...@cloudmade.com wrote: On Apr 7, 2009, at 12:52 PM, Marcus Wolschon wrote: On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 6:22 PM, Florian Lohoff f...@rfc822.org wrote: On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 11:28:16AM -0400, Russ Nelson wrote: Thus, for many roads near me, interpolation is not only usable, it's technically correct. Only if every house and intermediate street and garden around the house has the exact same exact size. I'm not sure how that logically follows from what I said. The street address is the distance down the road. What does that have to do with the exact same size? Interpolation happens between a start-node with a given house-number, an end-node with a given house-number. (I'll ignore via-nodes for the time being) Thus every distance(end, start)/(end-housenb - start-housenb) meters it places an address. If it is a very long road and only start+end are given and not all houses have roughly the same size then that means that multiple house-numbers end up inside a very large house, or between houses or even on crossing roads. So it is not automatically correct. You need to place more then 2 nodes in with house-numbers every now and then to make sure house-numbers end up where they are supposed to be. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Traveling Salesman - v1.0.0-RC1
Traveling Salesman - v1.0.0-RC1 == Traveling Salesman is a navigation application for use on nettops and laptops for the OpenStreetMap. It's focus is on clean, well documented code and modularity via plugins. Download it: https://sourceforge.net/project/platformdownload.php?group_id=203597 Start it via Java Webstart: http://travelingsales.sourceforge.net/ts-stable.jnlp Changelog: http://travelingsales.sourceforge.net/bugs/changelog_page.php Announcement in the forum: http://apps.sourceforge.net/phpbb/travelingsales/viewtopic.php?f=3t=63 V1.0.0-RC1 was released for bug-fixing up to the release of v1.0.0 planned next weekend. Development will continue on the trunk while this release started the v1.0.0-branch. The stable release has TMC-support and 2 routing-engines that are only used as examples removed and shall contain only stable code. We also have 2 webstart-versions now: http://travelingsales.sourceforge.net/ts-stable.jnlp and http://travelingsales.sourceforge.net/ts.jnlp - 126: [Route-Finding] IRouteMetric ignored by routers - 125: [Driving Directions] Way symbol is named as node - 124: [Driving Directions] RoutingSteps should be combined for driving instructions - 123: [User-Interface] wrong ETA - 122: [Other/Unknown] JGPSProvider crashed when the configured serial port vanishes. - 121: [Databases] allow downloading not only bounding-boxes - 120: [User-Interface] jumping to bounding-box after import wreaks havok if nothing was importedn. - 119: [User-Interface] download current area not working - 118: [Databases] Add FileWriter to FileReader in LibOSM - 117: [Address-Search] Cities may be place=city or voundary=administrative with admin_level=7 - 109: [Route-Finding] Fehlermeldung bei Routeberechnung - 115: [User-Interface] panel to show current Traffic-messages (Marcuswolschon) - 103: [User-Interface] emty error message Error while painting map (Marcuswolschon) - 108: [Other/Unknown] OpenJDK crashed when TS tries to install JavaComm for Sun-JDK (Marcuswolschon) - 107: [Renderers] OSRPaintVisitor does not fall back to SmoothTilePainter - 106: [User-Interface] subdirectories of geofebrik not showingin download-menu (Marcuswolschon) - 105: [User-Interface] limit length of shown stack-trace in popup (Marcuswolschon) - 104: [User-Interface] select default-text in address-search on getFocus (Marcuswolschon) changes in the SVN-version for v1.1: - 091: [traffic-messages(not driving instructions)] parse TMC-messages by GNC-receivers embedded in NMEA (Marcuswolschon) - 016: [traffic-messages(not driving instructions)] Add TMC-decoder (Marcuswolschon) - 114: [traffic-messages(not driving instructions)] store and update TMC-messages (Marcuswolschon) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Speed in traffic jams/slow traffic
On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:32:03 +0200, Yann Coupin y...@coupin.net wrote: Le 17 avr. 09 à 12:07, marcus.wolsc...@googlemail.com marcus.wolsc...@googlemail.com a écrit : What maxspeed could I assume during a traffic-jam of a given length or during reported slow moving traffic? Does anyone have some numbers here? That's for TMC message handling? Isn't there provision for data providers to give a mean speed or do you want to cover the case where There are messages that specify an explicit delay and there are messages that only specify the length of the traffic jam. Here the later are common on the air. Also information about traffic-jams may not only come in via TMC. I'm, trying to keep the architecture open for other plugins that e.g. get such information from web-services or from other cars or from the user. no speed is given. If so, determining the avg. speed is pretty much impossible on a global scale as it's dependent of what the content provider uses for threshold. I remember in Paris an urban highway segment (speed-limit usually 90kph) is considered clogged if the avg. speed falls under 30 kph and it keeps that state until the avg. speed rise above 60 kph. But it is probably different values in some other cities (or on different type of roads where those limits are not adapted). I guess a traffic jam of e.g. 5 kilometers on a lanes=2 highway=motorway will have a similar mean speed everywhere. If not, some gpx/nmea -tracks should be able to disprove this assumption. Does anyone have gps-tracks where he waited through a traffic jam? I don't like to simply assume 0km/h = infinite delay for a traffic jam and like 3 km/h for slow moving traffic. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Speed in traffic jams/slow traffic
On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 13:02:17 +0200, Sascha Silbe sascha-ml-gis-osm-t...@silbe.org wrote: On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 12:43:46PM +0200, marcus.wolsc...@googlemail.com wrote: I don't like to simply assume 0km/h = infinite delay for a traffic jam and like 3 km/h for slow moving traffic. How about using a fraction instead of a fixed value? E.g. 1/4 for slow moving and 1/10 (or even 1/100) for a jam. I don't think waiting 2Km on a motorway is any faster then waiting 2Km on a residential street. As I said, I don't like assuming basically random values what can easily be meassured and modelled. So...everyone with a gps-track through a traffic jam... send it to me. ;) Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] We're back - forum login
Login in the forum still seems to be broken. Getting 400 Bad Request on login. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Turn restrictions ambiguity
On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:01:20 +0100, Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk wrote: What is your problem with having way sections between each intersection instead of one long way? I don't have a problem with splitting ways, as that is what I've always done to add the relevant tags to the relevant section. But I can understand that there is a bit of an issue with doing such a thing. By so doing it isn't possible, currently, as far as I know, to work out at any given junction which road has priority (if any). Priority has nothing to do with street-names. I've seen numerous instances where the priority-road makes a turn onto another street while the original street continues. I would find it dangerous to try to infer any kind of logical priority from the physical topology. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] planet? geofabrik download...
On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:15:21 +0200, Gary68 g...@gary68.de wrote: hi, just wanted to use a planet slice from geofabrik and noticed that in bremen.osm.bz2 at least 4 referenced nodes are missing: node 31088130 not found node 257415561 not found node 285091039 not found node 303607968 not found those are referenced by ways in that file. any ideas? How is that supposed to be a problem? Unless you are working with all of the planet that is to be expected. What are you doing with the planet-slice that has an issue with this situation? Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] planet? geofabrik download...
On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:01:34 +0200, Gary68 g...@gary68.de wrote: it seems the geofabrik job today got stuck. still some countries missing, german bundesländer not calculated. i just checked croatia and denmark. denmark misses 17 of 1400 nodes that i would have needed for a certain check. Mmmhhh... you have the ability to download the extract. What about simply asking the API for any node that is missing? Your have the ID of the node from the waynode-entry. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] planet? geofabrik download...
On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 09:26:46 +0200, Gary68 g...@gary68.de wrote: there are situations where this is needed. for instance when i want to have a rectangle exactly, if i want to clip sharp (maps/pictures). I guess you are referring to painting ways that leave the visible area? on the other hand if i have a file with referenced nodes where the coordinates are missing i will have a problem when i want to use the coordinates. Handle the node as if it did not exist. Skip it (if apropriate with a log-message). Works fine for me in rendering, routing and any of the graph-algorithms. A simple matter of making a program robust instead of just stable. If input is slightly wrong a program should be able to continue it's task nonetheless (as long as it's no verifier or the consequences of a slight error would be dramatic.). Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-de] Routing (Re: Hilfe, meine Stadt hat Flecken)
On 14 Apr 2009 08:50:00 +, addi...@gmx.net (Johann H. Addicks) wrote: Dumm. Eine einigermaßen offizielle Festlegung, was für die einzelnen Straßentypen die Defaultwerte zu Verkehrsbeschränkungen sein sollen, haben wir noch nicht, oder? ... Wenn man aber nun ins südöstliche europäische Ausland schaut, dann sind dort in abgelegenen Gebieten tracks auf grade2 mit gelegentlichen Ausweichstellen durchaus üblich für kleinere Siedlungen. Will sagen: Dort sollte man durchaus nicht auf tracks verzichten im KFZ- Routing. Die Routing-Regeln müssen also regional unterschiedlich sein. Bloss nicht. Für so grundlegende Dinge wie da kann ich mit dem Auto/... fahren) muss das schon eindeutig sein. z.B. Ein Track ist befahrbar und wenn er das nicht ist, muss da halt ein entsprechendes access-tag dran. (z.B. car=no) Denk mal an jemanden der dann die gerenderte Karte sieht (die ja für alle Länder gleich aussieht) und nich versteht warum jedes Navi in auf der einen Seite der Grenze über die XYZ-farbigen Wege schickt aber auf der anderen nicht. Marcus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Routing (Re: Hilfe, meine Stadt hat Flecken)
On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:22:47 +0200, Mark Obrembalski mark...@web.de wrote: Johann H. Addicks wrote: Will sagen: Dort sollte man durchaus nicht auf tracks verzichten im KFZ- Routing. Die Routing-Regeln müssen also regional unterschiedlich sein. Das ist auf der hier schon erwähnten Wiki-Seite ja auch für andere Straßentypen so. Verschiedene Maxspeed sind schon was gänzlich anderes (Metrik) als bestimmte Strassen nicht verwenden zu dürfen (Selektion). Wenn die Metrik nicht ganz stimmt ist im schlimmsten Fall mal die Route nicht ganz optimal (eb er jetzt maxspeed 50 statt 60 annimmt ist nicht sooo wild). Wenn die Selektion nicht stimmt kommt der Fahrer entweder nicht an's Ziel obwohl da eine befahrbare Strasse ist oder er steht vor einem Schild wo er nicht durch darf und weis nicht weiter. Marcus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Routing (Re: Hilfe, meine Stadt hat Flecken)
On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 14:11:39 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: ich sehe weder tracks noch service als default gesperrt an, wenn das in einzelnen (Bundes-)Ländern so sein sollte, dann würde ich das mit access-Tags klarstellen. Bitte nicht alle diese Wege automatisch beim Routing aussperren, nicht mal für Kfz. Eine automatische Vergabe von access-tags per Script für bestimmte Regionen wäre zwar möglich, aber auch das birgt gewisse Gefahren. Im Zweifel lieber manuell hinzufügen. Ich route momentan über alle Path und Service aber nicht über Track. Wobei für Path und Service recht geringe maxspeeds angenommen werden. Er wird sie also umfahren wenn nach Zeit geroutet wird jedoch wird er sie bei kürzeste Strecke und unter Umständen bei einer Strecke mit optimalem Verbrauch nicht vermeiden. Service sind z.B. auch alle Autobahn-Raststätten. Wenn ich zu einer dieser Raststätten will, komme ich da sonst nicht hin. (Kann ja gerne mal ein geplanter Zwischenstop oder ein Treffpunkt sein.) Marcus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Routing - routing über highway=path
On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 14:39:05 +0200, Mark Obrembalski mark...@web.de wrote: marcus.wolsc...@googlemail.com wrote: Ich route momentan über alle Path und Service aber nicht über Track. Warum denn über path? Das ist doch eine Sammelkategorie für Wege, denen hauptsächlich gemeinsam ist, dass sie für normale Autos jedenfalls nicht bestimmt sind. path: A non-specific or shared-use path http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Approved_features/Path http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway Solange da kein car=no dran steht ist das ein befahrbarer Weg. Marcus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Routing - Dokumentation zu Routenberechnung
On 14 Apr 2009 15:26:00 +, addi...@gmx.net (Johann H. Addicks) wrote: Anyway: Gerade das Radfahr-Routing ist teilweise extrem wirr, weil a) Querverbindungen zwischen straßenbegleitenden Radwegen an T-Kreuzungen als Überwegs zur gegenüberliegenden Seite vergessen wurden b) Querverbindungen vorhanden sind, aber nur Fußwege sind. c) Fußwege in Parks nicht für bicycle=yes freigegeben wurden Daher zwei Bitten: - Liebe Mapper, nehmt ab und an in Eurer Gegend mit ORS Fahrradrouten und korrigiert die schlimmsten Fehler - Lieber Routing-Programmierer: Dokumentiert, wie ihr die Routen berechnet. Wie werden die Wegekosten berechnet? Was sind harte Limits? http://apps.sourceforge.net/mediawiki/travelingsales/index.php?title=Plugin IRouter (wie werden routen gesucht) IRoutingMetric (was ist gut) IVehicle(was ist befahrbar) Marcus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Routing - trunk
On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 20:46:03 +0200, Mark Obrembalski mark...@web.de wrote: Das ist schon klar, ich gehe aber davon aus, dass ein vernünftiger Router ohnehin nicht drumherumkommt, Straßentypen in unterschiedlichen Ländern auch unterschiedlich zu interpretieren - jedenfalls solange wir nicht eine große Anzahl an länderspezifischen Straßentypen einführen. Das bekannteste Beispiel ist trunk, was im Vereinigten Königreich eine deutlich andere Bedeutung hat als in Deutschland. Da bin ich strikt dagegen. Stelle doch bitte mal dar inwieweit ein trunk irgendwo etwas anderes ist als eine zwischen primary und motorway angesiedelte Strasse welche mit Autos, Wohnwagen und Lastern befahrbar ist und eine vom Land abhängige Höchstgeschwindigkeit hat? Marcus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Routing - trunk
On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 21:09:18 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Das bekannteste Beispiel ist trunk, was im Vereinigten Königreich eine deutlich andere Bedeutung hat als in Deutschland. deutlich anders? In Deutschland nehmen wir trunks für Kraftfahrstraßen, oder? Sind die Unterschiede zum trunk wirklich so riesig? (Kurze Klarstellung: Kraftfahrstrassen sind motorroad=yes zuammen mit einem highway=* wobei * oft halt primary oder eben trunk ist) http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:motorroad Marcus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Routing - routing über highway=path
On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:47:06 +0200, Marc Schütz schue...@gmx.net wrote: Ich route momentan über alle Path und Service aber nicht über Track. Warum denn über path? Das ist doch eine Sammelkategorie für Wege, denen hauptsächlich gemeinsam ist, dass sie für normale Autos jedenfalls nicht bestimmt sind. path: A non-specific or shared-use path http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Approved_features/Path http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway Solange da kein car=no dran steht ist das ein befahrbarer Weg. Aus der von dir zitierten Approved features-Seite: The default access restriction of highway=path is open to all non-motorized vehicles, but emergency vehicles are allowed. Also nicht für Autos. http://travelingsales.sourceforge.net/bugs/view.php?id=129 Dann werd ich das wohl mal ändern müssen. Marcus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Elemente einer Relation in eine andere ü bernehmen
On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:06:58 +0200, Dimitri Junker o...@dimitri-junker.de wrote: Hallo, Geht das auch anders ??? So richtig toll geht es nicht, was geht ist folgendes: Beide Relations bearbeiten, in der Quellrelation die Elemente markieren (STRG-A wenn Du alle kopieren willst) und in der Zielrelation auf Ausgewählte Hinzufügen. Leider geht dabei aber die Rolle verloren und da nach Rolle sortiert wird geht auch die Sortierung verloren - markiere jeweils nur die Elemente mit gleicher Rolle füge sie ein, füge überall die Das mit der Sortieung klingt als wäre es noch nicht für API0.6 bereit, oder? Da 0.6 sortierte Relationen hat, darf die beim Bearbeiten nicht zerstöhrt werden. PS: Kennt jemand einen Weg um vielen Elementen einer Relation eine Rolle zuzuweisen? Wenn ich mehrere wähle und anfange zu tippen hab ich immer plötzlich nur noch ein zufälliges Element der gewählten ausgewählt. Marcus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Hausnummernmapping Relationen (Karlsruher Schema)
On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:04:56 + (UTC), Gernot Hillier ger...@hillier.de wrote: Hallo! Seit einiger Zeit mappe ich Hausnummern nach dem auf http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/House_numbers/Karlsruhe_Schema beschriebenen Vorgehen. Klappt auch alles soweit ganz nett, mir stellen sich aber ein paar grundlegende Fragen: * Ist jetzt das Vorgehen mit addr:street oder die associatedStreet-Relation vorzuziehen oder beides? Momentan mache ich beides, als Informatiker würde ich aber am liebsten *nur* die Relation verwenden, um doppelte (und damit potenziell widersprüchliche) Daten zu vermeiden. Wie haltet Ihr das? Die Idee damals im Treffen war, dass die Relation einfach und eindeutig auszuwerten ist und vorgezogen wird. Da man das aber den Mappern nicht als einziger Weg zuzumuten war, wurde als Alternative das addr:street aufgenommen. Also: * eines von beiden Reicht * Relation hat im Zweifelsfall Vorrang * addr:street ist einfacher für Mapper aber aufwendiger und weniger eindeutig * associatedStreet-Relation ist einfacher für Computer * Wenn man die Relation verwendet, die Straße aber in mehrere Wege aufgeteilt ist (z.B. wegen unterschiedlicher Klassifizierung oder maxspeed oder wegen vieler Wege mit highway=service als Zufahrt zu den Häusern), tragt ihr dann alle Wege in die Relation ein oder nur einen? Welchen? Die Wiki-Seite sagt ja klar, dass es nur einen Way in der Relation geben darf, aber damit zerteilt man dann ja die entsprechende Straße unmotiviert in mehrere Relations-Teilmengen. Eine Weile habe ich versucht, das durchzuhalten, aber eigentlich sträubt sich alles in mir dagegen, nur ein willkürliches Teilstück aufzunehmen... Also meine Implementierung (dokumentiert unter http://apps.sourceforge.net/mediawiki/travelingsales/index.php?title=Plugin/AdvancedAddressDBPlaceFinder ) kommt damit zurecht, wenn da beliebig viele Ways mit der Rolle street drin sind. Zu finden in: Code: http://travelingsales.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/travelingsales/trunk/libosm/src/org/openstreetmap/osm/data/searching/HouseNumberHelper.java?view=markup Methode: checkAssociatedStreet() Zeile: 393 Marcus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Routingprobleme visualisieren?
On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:13:55 +0200, Florian Lohoff f...@rfc822.org wrote: On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 10:45:38AM +0200, Gary G: wrote: Dann einfach in Hamburg any2any alle nodes durchrechnen und selbiges in Muenchen. Danach hat man 1000 Strecken mit einer laenge. Diese laenge einfach morgen wieder mit der laenge von heute vergleichen. Aendert diese sich signifikant (+-10% bzw 200m) roten baepperl auf einer webseite der dann anbietet die Strecke als overlay zu visualisieren. So kann jeder in seinem Ort die wichtigen verbindungsnodes selber definieren die auf erreichbarkeit getestet werden sollen und kann vor allem aenderungen auch qualifizieren und evtl die daten korrigieren. Das ganze mit einer moeglichkeit das user ihre OSMid nodelist selber pflegen koennen und entsprechenden fail benachrichtigung via mail (nicht holschuld einbauen - wollen ja kein webphorum) Dafuer braeuchte man eine routingengine die sich unter linux command line technisch ansprechen lassen muesste und am besten sowas wie laenge, osm wayids, osm nodeids und einen gpx track rauswirft. Für jemand anderen (Planung von neuen Bus-Routen) hatte ich Traveling Salesman bereits vor einer Weile eine Komandozeile gegeben. Du kannst dem eine Liste von NodeIDs übergeben und er spuckt dir die Route im CSV-Format aus. Ich kann dem auch eine zusätzliche Komandozeilen-Option geben, dass du ihm einfach eine .osm/osm.bz2/osm.gz -Datei gibst und er läd die in den Ram und routet da drauf. Damit wäre das ganze in wenigen Zeilen Shell-Code abzufackeln. Marcus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Routingprobleme visualisieren?
On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:45:38 +0200 (MEST), Gary G: g...@gary68.de wrote: Der Relation Check zeigt ja für Relationen lose Enden an. Und genau das ist bei Wegen und Routing ja das Problem! Es wäre möglich, z.B. einen Stadtplan zu zeichnen, der nur bestimmte Elemente der OSM Daten enthält (die also zum Routing verwendet werden dürfen). Weiterhin würden in der Karte alle losen Enden markiert (roter Kreis, Node-Id). Man könnte also schnell sehen, wo es tote Enden gibt und das Routing nicht weiterkommt. In einer begleitenden HTML-Datei könnten JOSM / OSM Links zu den offenen Nodes gelistet werden, sodass man schnell an diesen Stellen editieren kann. - Wie ist denn das Interesse an so einem Tool? - Verbesserungsvorschläge? - Für welche Städte oder Gegenden wird das gewünscht? Was genau meinst du mit lose Enden? Befahrbare Strassen welche auf keiner Seite mit etwas verbunden sind? Ich halte eher Schreibfehler in highway-tags, fehlende Abbiege-Verbote und schlichtweg fehlende Strassen für ein Problem. Andere sind mir bisher nicht unter gekommen (womit ich sie erstmal als unerheblich ansehe, dir aber natürlich nicht im Weg stehen will da was zu machen). Marcus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Suche Tester mit Royaltek TMC-Empfänger
Ich bräuchte mal jemanden mit einem Royaltek TMC-Empfänger (also einem der $RTTMC im NMEA sendet) um den neuen Auto-Tuner in Traveling Salesman (SVN-Version, nicht v1.0.0-RC1) zu testen. Da ich nur einem mit GNC-Protokoll habe und hier ein Mitschnitt nicht reicht kann ich das nicht selber testen. http://travelingsales.sourceforge.net/ts.jnlp ist die Entwicker- Version, die sich auf den jeweils nächsten Radio-Sender mit TMC- Daten einstellen sollte (und wenn nix mehr kommt nach einem anderen Sender sucht). Marcus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Hausnummernmapping Relationen (Karlsruher Schema)
On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 13:37:34 +0200, Sebastian Hohmann m...@s-hohmann.de wrote: Ich hab das testweise etwas anders gemacht, so wie auf [1] vorgeschlagen. Das funktioniert ganz gut, die Hausnummer ist eindeutig der Straße zugeordnet und man braucht pro Straße nur eine Relation, die man dann sogar auch noch für andere Dinge benutzen kann (z.B. um Tags unterzubringen die für die ganze Straße gelten). Gruß [1]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Relations/Proposed/Collected_Ways#Street-Relation_and_Karlsruhe_Schema Ist eine gute Idee, nur finde ich keine Relationen mit type=street dokumentiert. Lediglich type=route mit route=road kann ich finden (z.B. für lange Autobahnen). Marcus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Hotel mit Restaurant
On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 13:49:14 +0200, René Falk li...@falconaerie.de wrote: Ich würde auch mehrfach POI für folgende Fälle setzen: - räumliche Trennung von Hotel und Gastro. - unterschiedliche Benamung. - unterschiedliche Eingänge oder Adressen. Das Ganze noch mit einer Building oder Site-Relation zusammengefasst, wo es sinnvoll ist. Ansonsten bietet die nächste API wohl gute Möglichkeiten Mehrfach-POI zu erstellen und auch zu verwerten. Durch welches Feature wäre das? Ich sehe nicht welchen Einfluss sortierte Relationen, Changesets und Versions-Nummern darauf hätten. Marcus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Routingprobleme visualisieren?
On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 03:09:12 +0200, Dimitri Junker o...@dimitri-junker.de wrote: Hallo, Lose Enden können auch im Singular auftreten. Und sie müssen nicht zwangsläufig ein Problem sein, da es natürlich Straßen gibt, die einfach irgendwo enden. Es gibt ja ein Sackgassen-Tag, ist dies gesetzt sollte es natürlich nicht als Fehler markiert werden. So ein Tag hab ich bisher noch nie gesehen. Weder in der Karte noch im Wiki. Hast du mal den Wiki-Link dazu? Marcus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Routingprobleme visualisieren?
On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 09:15:28 +0200, Raphael Studer stude...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Es gibt ja ein Sackgassen-Tag, ist dies gesetzt sollte es natürlich nicht als Fehler markiert werden. So ein Tag hab ich bisher noch nie gesehen. Weder in der Karte noch im Wiki. Hast du mal den Wiki-Link dazu? Such mal nach noexit au fder Map Features Seite. Danke. Ist anscheinend auf http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:noexit dokumentiert. Wird anscheinend wenig genutzt. Ich kann mir zumindest nicht vorstellen, dass es in Europa nur 39000 Sackgassen gibt: http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Europe/En/keystats_noexit.html Marcus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Routingprobleme visualisieren?
On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:05:09 +0200, Ulf Lamping ulf.lamp...@googlemail.com wrote: Du kennst: http://openstreetbugs.appspot.com/ ? Hat jemand Ahnung wer das betreibt? Die Seite hat keinerlei Impressum oder Kontakt-Infos und ich würde gerne wissen ob es technisch möglich ist mir eine API für einen [Fehler melden] -Knopf im Navi zu geben. Marcus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Routingprobleme visualisieren?
Die nötigen Erweiterungen der Komandozeile von Traveling Salesman sind gemacht: http://apps.sourceforge.net/mediawiki/travelingsales/index.php?title=Traveling_Salesman#End-Users Muss noch getestet werden aber sollte laufen. Damit kann man TS mit Auszügen einzelner Ortschaften per Script laufen lassen und bekommt die resultierenden Routen als CSV (Zeilen: nodeID, wayID, nodeID, Länge in Km). Wer also bestimmte Routen automatisiert testen will, viel Spass. Die neue Version wird heute abend in SVN und als unstable-webstart hochgeladen. Marcus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Routingprobleme visualisieren?
On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:20:24 +0200, Dimitri Junker o...@dimitri-junker.de wrote: Hallo, Wird anscheinend wenig genutzt. Klar, Wenn die Karte vollständig wäre wäre es unnötig weil Software selber erkennen kann, daß ein Way nur an einem Punkt mit dem Rest der Welt verbunden ist, wenn Du aber so einen Checker schreibst und dort z.B. die Möglichkeit einen Button Ist wirklich eine Sackgasse einbaust einbaust der dies setzt wird sich das sicher ändern. Du kannst natürlich umgekehrt auch noch einen Button da fehlt wirklich was einfügen der dann ein note=FIXME:Missing Connection o.ä. setzt. Dein Checker könnte dann zwischen 3 Sackgassen unterscheiden: Du missverstehst da was. Ich schreibe keine Checker sondern stelle nur eine Routing-Engine für einen Checker bereit. Marcus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Tags Rund um Tiere
On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:20:26 +0200, Jan Tappenbeck o...@tappenbeck.net wrote: Moin ! vor einigen Wochen hatte ich mein Vorhaben schon einmal angekündigt. Hier die ersten Gedanken - Bilder folgen noch. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Animal Bitte (ernsthaft) diskutieren ! amenity=vending_veterinary ??? Ein Automat(vending-machine) aus dem Tierärzte kommen oder ein Schreibfehler? Marcus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
