RE: programmer vs. developer
The good doctors, lawyers or plumbers keep up with whats current. Those who don't fail. There's a difference between keeping current and constant work. In fact, most programmers don't keep current, even when they're working insane hours - they're simply doing more work. In fact, I think programming is a field which many people enjoy working in even when they're not especially suited to it. And they are paid accordingly. Are they? Not as far as I can tell. There seems to be relatively little correlation between value and pay in the programming field. You can treat any field like a job and get your end of week paycheck. But those who really enjoy it like to play with it more often and tend to be more successful. Again, I don't see that correlation either, in real life, as much as you might expect. In addition, there are plenty of people who enjoy their jobs a lot, but still don't constantly work. The difference, to me, is that there's a general expectation that programmers work constantly, and a lot of programmers end up fulfilling that expectation because, well, they're expected to. There are probably lots of reasons for those expectations, but I think that most of those reasons have to do with the immaturity of our profession, and the general lack of standards within our profession. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
I'm surprised to see such a response from you. You're one of the few people I see on this list 24/7. I'm on the west coast and see you post at 12:42am. If memory serves me correctly you're on the east coast... 3:42am You got up early to go fishing didn't you? ;-) White-water rafting, actually. I'm on vacation, and I'm checking my email at night. So if you have two people... equally qualified, equal personalities, equal in every way except one goes fishing and one likes to program in his spare time... who would you choose. The short and simple answer to that question is the guy at home... if for no reason other than he doesn't have to dock the boat before logging into the server to fix the problem code that only rears it's head on the weekends. ;-) First, being a programmer shouldn't make it more likely that you're going to be on call for weekend emergencies. Programming isn't surgery - no one's going to die. If a programming environment is set up correctly, with development, staging and production environments, with proper QA, this shouldn't be an issue. Second, the problem with hypotheticals is that, well, they're hypothetical. I've never encountered two job applicants who were so comparable, I don't think. If they appear so comparable, you're probably not asking the right questions in the interview process. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
One question that is always worth asking during the interviewing process is What types of things/programs do you work on in your spare time? If you get an answer like ...not much really, I go fishing on the weekends... then chances are you've got a programmer who's in it more for the money than the love of programming. I find it odd that people in the field of programming are expected to be so different from people in other fields. Do most doctors, lawyers or plumbers practice their skills in their spare time? Why do we expect programmers to do so? Would you use that as a criteria when hiring any other professional? Also, just because someone enjoys what they do doesn't make them good at it. In fact, I think programming is a field which many people enjoy working in even when they're not especially suited to it. Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
How appropriate that you write this at 3:42 am EST ;-) At 3:42 AM 8/29/02, you wrote: Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
I couldn't answer too many of your Software Engineering principles questions, but I can solve problems, and that's what my employer wants. My background is accounting, but I spent all my time automating my tasks using Excel/VBA/VB, so I ended up going into programming. Nothing personal, but you'd be the last type of manager I would want to have. A degree means you made it through four (or more) years of school, and that's it. I've known a lot of people with CS degrees that couldn't solve problems. I think you're selling short the value of a CS background. Sure, there are lots of people with CS degrees who lack problem-solving skills. There are incompetents in every field, except for those fields in which incompetence is weeded out automatically (incompetent soldiers being more likely to die in combat, for example). That's not much of an argument against the value of a CS degree, though. I don't have a CS background either. However, I've always worked with people who do, and I've found myself learning the lessons they'd been taught - and I had to learn them the hard way, by trial and error. I would miss subtleties that they would spot immediately, because of their training. For those people, a degree meant quite a bit more than making it through four years of school - it meant that they had gained a way to examine and classify problems, and provide solutions that meet those software engineering standards. This is not a trivial ability. If I turned your initial statement on its head, I could say something like my background is programming, but I spent all my time adding up numbers, so I ended up going into accounting. I think my CFO would probably take issue with that, if I presented myself as a competent accountant simply because I had decent math skills. Any profession has a body of knowledge that has to be understood by practitioners of that profession. Likewise, I wouldn't necessarily be a competent surgeon just because I'm handy with a knife. I think in both those examples, you can see the value of principles. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
LOL.. ill go with that :-) -Original Message- From: Ben Johnson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 3:23 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer whats the difference? I always thought programmer sounded so 80's. Developer is just the hip, new term. I believe the cool name now is Information Architect. g Ben Johnson Information Architect www.architekture.com [p] 720.934.2179 __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: RE: programmer vs. developer
Shawns' comments below should have ended this debate! === programming references computer science development references computer technology science is the explanation of a phenomena technology is the application of science a programmer models concepts using computers a developer applies those concepts to problems - example (not a great one) programmer creates ip protocol developer uses ip to transfer web page -Original Message- From: Sean A Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 3:11 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer On Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 11:06 , S. Isaac Dealey wrote: I've heard people use the difference to indicate that a developer does planning and architectural design work whereas a programmer just does programming and makes sure an application achieves the features requested in the functional specification, without regard to wholistic questions about what the application is for or who will use it. Which is usually what I intend to imply when I tell people I'm a developer (that is, that I do more than just programming). That's the 'distinction' I'm most familiar with over the last twenty years. . I've also seen or heard people make the distinction that a programmer is someone who works with traditional ( usually compiled ) languages like C/ C++ and Java whereas a developer just toys with web scripts and other interpreted stuff... This isn't a distinction I much care for, because imho it encourages a gratuitous continued antagonism between the old-school and the new, but I've heard it used. I agree with you Isaac (and was a little surprised to hear MD say he'd heard this distinction too - glad he also doesn't like it!). Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/blog/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: programmer vs. developer
I agree you'll find alot of people who don't know and who didn't goto college. But I can pretty much say that you'll find people from college that don't know either. I know I understand all those concepts and I never went to college I've been doing software in all forms for 8 years now. I've taken training from gurus to cover all the bases and to me more knowledge is a huge motivation for me its awesome to learn more and more. I am also going to College classes in free time (not much with side work and teaching CF) to get a degree so I don't have to ever be told I'm not giving you this job because I gave it to someone with a college degree instead. My view is you'll find people who don't know crap anywhere, for the people that goto college and don't know crap you should feel worse for since they spent all the money and time and SHOULD have learned by didn't. But on the norm I agree that you will find many people who don't know the more detailed parts of programming/developing/yadda yadda Bill Wheatley Senior Database Developer Macromedia Certified Advanced Coldfusion Developer EDIETS.COM 954.360.9022 X159 ICQ 417645 - Original Message - From: Paul Wille [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 6:20 PM Subject: programmer vs. developer Dan, You make a reasonable point. My experience is all that dictates my responses here. Also, the type of projects my company brings in. When my team is building a complex exterprise-level application, I want developers/programmers who can understand everything from performance tuning to properly-formed queries/Stored Procs. All that I've found thusfar is a lack of that kind of knowledge in many people, except those that come from a Software Engineering background. Does that mean that I wouldn't hire a perfectly competant developer/programmer who did NOT go to college for it? Not necessarily, but I would want to make sure that the person had a good foundational understanding of the type of development we do here. --Paul __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
Dave, I think you are right on. If only everyone thought as you do, I'd probably still be working as a Nuclear Engineer/Health Physicist. The number of people who think they know something about nuclear power generation is dumbfounding. With Regards, Lonny Eckert -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 4:10 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer I couldn't answer too many of your Software Engineering principles questions, but I can solve problems, and that's what my employer wants. My background is accounting, but I spent all my time automating my tasks using Excel/VBA/VB, so I ended up going into programming. Nothing personal, but you'd be the last type of manager I would want to have. A degree means you made it through four (or more) years of school, and that's it. I've known a lot of people with CS degrees that couldn't solve problems. I think you're selling short the value of a CS background. Sure, there are lots of people with CS degrees who lack problem-solving skills. There are incompetents in every field, except for those fields in which incompetence is weeded out automatically (incompetent soldiers being more likely to die in combat, for example). That's not much of an argument against the value of a CS degree, though. I don't have a CS background either. However, I've always worked with people who do, and I've found myself learning the lessons they'd been taught - and I had to learn them the hard way, by trial and error. I would miss subtleties that they would spot immediately, because of their training. For those people, a degree meant quite a bit more than making it through four years of school - it meant that they had gained a way to examine and classify problems, and provide solutions that meet those software engineering standards. This is not a trivial ability. If I turned your initial statement on its head, I could say something like my background is programming, but I spent all my time adding up numbers, so I ended up going into accounting. I think my CFO would probably take issue with that, if I presented myself as a competent accountant simply because I had decent math skills. Any profession has a body of knowledge that has to be understood by practitioners of that profession. Likewise, I wouldn't necessarily be a competent surgeon just because I'm handy with a knife. I think in both those examples, you can see the value of principles. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
I think you're selling short the value of a CS background. Sure, there are lots of people with CS degrees who lack problem-solving skills. There are incompetents in every field, except for those fields in which incompetence is weeded out automatically (incompetent soldiers being more likely to die in combat, for example). That's not much of an argument against Heh heh.. * Types incorrect code * Computer: We're sorry, the code you wrote is wrong. * AK-47 pops out, shoots me in the head. * __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
I think you're selling short the value of a CS background. Sure, there are lots of people with CS degrees who lack problem-solving skills. There are incompetents in every field, except for those fields in which incompetence is weeded out automatically (incompetent soldiers being more likely to die in combat, for example). That's not much of an argument against Heh heh.. * Types incorrect code * Computer: We're sorry, the code you wrote is wrong. * AK-47 pops out, shoots me in the head. * I guess that would either drastically improve production or send us back to the stone age. :) Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
Uh I think you forgot the Architect label at the end! ;-) -Original Message- From: Lee Fuller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 6:34 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer Nono.. It's Senior Programming Development Applications Design Analyst | -Original Message- | From: Tony Carcieri [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] | Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 1:06 PM | To: CF-Talk | Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer | | | and now I am applying for the position of Senior Applications | Programmer Analyst | | -Original Message- | From: Tony Carcieri [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] | Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 2:30 PM | To: CF-Talk | Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer | | | ok so what happens in this case: | | Web Designer | Web Developer | Web Application Designer | Web Application Developer | | imho: | designer = graphic intensive training (ps, fw, flash (no | actionscript), director (no lingo), etc) programmer = coder | but more along the lines of c++, c, vb and web technologies | developer = more web languages (cf, asp, sql, vb, java, | swing, js, jscript, html, dhtml, xml, wap/wml etc) | | And then you get a title like Web Application Engineer and | that is where i stop trying to figure it out! ;-) | | Big T | | -Original Message- | From: Tony Weeg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] | Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 1:56 PM | To: CF-Talk | Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer | | | imho: | | developer has these as his/her strong suit: | 50/50 on graphical interface/programming work | | photoshop/fireworks | flash | cf | sql | javascript | dhtml | | a programmer is a language guru: | | all ecma based scripts | cf | maybe some vbscript/asp (if that be their flavor of | choice) | sql (cant get too far without this guy) | | | | tony | | Tony Weeg | Senior Web Developer | Information System Design | Navtrak, Inc. | Fleet Management Solutions | www.navtrak.net | 410.548.2337 | | -Original Message- | From: Phoeun Pha [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] | Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 1:42 PM | To: CF-Talk | Subject: programmer vs. developer | | | whats the difference? | | | | __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Dave Watts wrote: I find it odd that people in the field of programming are expected to be so different from people in other fields. Do most doctors, lawyers or plumbers practice their skills in their spare time? Why do we expect programmers to do so? Would you use that as a criteria when hiring any other professional? The good doctors, lawyers or plumbers keep up with whats current. Those who don't fail. Also, just because someone enjoys what they do doesn't make them good at it. In fact, I think programming is a field which many people enjoy working in even when they're not especially suited to it. And they are paid accordingly. expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. You can treat any field like a job and get your end of week paycheck. But those who really enjoy it like to play with it more often and tend to be more successful. __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: programmer vs. developer
Programmer - one who systematically re-maps the logic, thinking, and synaptic linking of a prospective cult candidate, replacing free-thinking ideas,beliefs and concepts with those of the cult leader. Synonym: brainwashing Developer - one who works and lives side by side with newly programmed candidates in order to reenforce the ideas, beliefs and concepts previously programmed into the mind of the inductee by the programmer __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
Do you work for HR at Microsoft? cf_grin / -Original Message- From: Rafael (Alan Bleiweiss) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:15 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer Programmer - one who systematically re-maps the logic, thinking, and synaptic linking of a prospective cult candidate, replacing free-thinking ideas,beliefs and concepts with those of the cult leader. Synonym: brainwashing Developer - one who works and lives side by side with newly programmed candidates in order to reenforce the ideas, beliefs and concepts previously programmed into the mind of the inductee by the programmer __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Dave Watts wrote: I find it odd that people in the field of programming are expected to be so different from people in other fields. Do most doctors, lawyers or plumbers practice their skills in their spare time? Why do we expect programmers to do so? Would you use that as a criteria when hiring any other professional? The good doctors, lawyers or plumbers keep up with whats current. Those who don't fail. I'm fairly certain that plubming tech. doesn't change anywhere near as quickly as our industry. :) IMHO, with dr's and lawyers, their industries are at this point so hopelessly inundated with an over-abundance of information ( most of it bad information ) that separating the wheat from the shaff in order to figure out what is good and useful information and hone their skills is a losing battle. As I see it, technology in general is headed that direction also. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
Well said. CC Dave Watts dwatts To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] @figleaf.comcc: Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer 08/29/02 02:42 AM Please respond to cf-talk One question that is always worth asking during the interviewing process is What types of things/programs do you work on in your spare time? If you get an answer like ...not much really, I go fishing on the weekends... then chances are you've got a programmer who's in it more for the money than the love of programming. I find it odd that people in the field of programming are expected to be so different from people in other fields. Do most doctors, lawyers or plumbers practice their skills in their spare time? Why do we expect programmers to do so? Would you use that as a criteria when hiring any other professional? Also, just because someone enjoys what they do doesn't make them good at it. In fact, I think programming is a field which many people enjoy working in even when they're not especially suited to it. Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator) | __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator) | __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
Dave, I understand where you are coming from and am not discounting the value of a CS background. The statement that had been made seemed to indicate that a CS background was required. Our types of jobs are too varied to be lumped together like doctors and accountants and lawyers. You wouldn't see accountants on a mailing list debating the terms bookkeeper and accountant. Accounting IS learned from books. When it comes time to recognize revenue at the end of the period you don't have to take into consideration the hardware and software available to you, you don't have to worry about load balancing or tight code or scalability, you apply principles of accounting to determine the revenue amount. Or at least you're supposed to. ;) Sure, there is some interpretation that takes place in certain industries, and the criticism that GAAP is a little behind the times may be valid, but you don't hire a bookkeeper to do that interpretation. Personally, I would love to spend some time in a true development environment to learn more about software development (or is that software programming ... wait ... no), and with the layoffs going on I just might get that chance some day! Hopefully my lack of a CS degree won't be a problem grin, 'cuz I really don't want to go back to writing Excel macros to automate accounting procedures! Dan -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:10 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer I think you're selling short the value of a CS background. Sure, there are lots of people with CS degrees who lack problem-solving skills. There are incompetents in every field, except for those fields in which incompetence is weeded out automatically (incompetent soldiers being more likely to die in combat, for example). That's not much of an argument against the value of a CS degree, though. __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Wholly crap, there is someone else out there with the same problem I have. Thanks Todd! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:02 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator) | __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator) | __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
If you didn't sign an agreement then you are not bound to one. This puts the work on them to prove that everything you produce was done on company time with company resources. I suggest you get your own IP agreement and force your employer to sign it thus protecting yourself. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator) | __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Not only that, it's not the easiest thing to prove that your application was being developed during off-hours. Personally I believe that what I do after 6:00 is my own business yet I know this isn't always the case. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator) | __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
IMHO... Programmer and developer are the same. However, the differences come down to personal preference. Both are highly skilled, over worked, and underpaid. -Original Message- From: Phoeun Pha [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 1:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: programmer vs. developer whats the difference? __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Wow, that is restrictive! What if you wanted to work on a freelance project outside of work, maybe for charity or something. Does the company own that code and do you have it in writing that they do? M -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator) | __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
The interesting question that your comment raises in my mind: If you are never truly 'off', you just aren't at your desk... If 'they' ever fought you on intellectual property, couldn't you retort with a rather hefty claim for overtime owed? heheh :) -- Jillian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator) | __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: programmer vs. developer
Dave, I'm surprised to see such a response from you. You're one of the few people I see on this list 24/7. I'm on the west coast and see you post at 12:42am. If memory serves me correctly you're on the east coast... 3:42am You got up early to go fishing didn't you? ;-) Seriously though... I should have worded my original statement better. That question by no means is a catch all or a disqualifying question. But I have found it to be a valuable question during the interviewing process. And you're absolutely right... just because someone spends a lot of time in front of the screen doesn't make them a good programmer. But their willingness to learn and improve their skills both at work and at home are certainly a bonus. So if you have two people... equally qualified, equal personalities, equal in every way except one goes fishing and one likes to program in his spare time... who would you choose. The short and simple answer to that question is the guy at home... if for no reason other than he doesn't have to dock the boat before logging into the server to fix the problem code that only rears it's head on the weekends. ;-) -Novak - Original Message - From: Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:42 AM Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer One question that is always worth asking during the interviewing process is What types of things/programs do you work on in your spare time? If you get an answer like ...not much really, I go fishing on the weekends... then chances are you've got a programmer who's in it more for the money than the love of programming. I find it odd that people in the field of programming are expected to be so different from people in other fields. Do most doctors, lawyers or plumbers practice their skills in their spare time? Why do we expect programmers to do so? Would you use that as a criteria when hiring any other professional? Also, just because someone enjoys what they do doesn't make them good at it. In fact, I think programming is a field which many people enjoy working in even when they're not especially suited to it. Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Not a bad idea. Good suggestion. Now I just need to come up with $100/hr to pay a lawyer. ;) ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: If you didn't sign an agreement then you are not bound to one. This puts the work on them to prove that everything you produce was done on company time with company resources. I suggest you get your own IP agreement and force your employer to sign it thus protecting yourself. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator) | __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Re: no agreement, not bound That is really bad advice Matt. The laws still exist protecting intellectual property... I've had colleagues go to court with this very battle. -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:21 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) If you didn't sign an agreement then you are not bound to one. This puts the work on them to prove that everything you produce was done on company time with company resources. I suggest you get your own IP agreement and force your employer to sign it thus protecting yourself. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
I suggest you get your own IP agreement and force your employer to sign it thus protecting yourself. Assuming, of course, that you're prepared to earn your living elsewhere or that your Intellectual Property is of sufficient immediate market value to sustain you. Not too many employers are likely to respond well to being forced into an agreement by an employee, especially if they view the subject of that agreement to be their own asset. Ken __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
It rather non sensical like patents where this Intellectual Property extension crap is going.. I mean face it, everyone takes knowledge from one job to their next.. Work is all about experience Logically your current employer doesn't collect money from your future employer... Having said that, anyone who does anything proximate to what they do at work in their spare time is bound to get spanked if they are talented... Simple solution is to not work for tyrants. Second, negotiate the IP clause away as a term of employment and get it in writing... Get an employment contract that suits you... Contracts are negotiable... If more folks would enforce this, these companies would find suckers (and not your poor abused folks) who want the abuse. -paris -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:21 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) If you didn't sign an agreement then you are not bound to one. This puts the work on them to prove that everything you produce was done on company time with company resources. I suggest you get your own IP agreement and force your employer to sign it thus protecting yourself. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Having been on both sides of the fence on this issue I can tell you that you must have an agreement that is very explicit. Don't feel like you have to accept whatever agreement your employer comes up with. You can suggest changes for your own benefit without hurting the company. My favorite addition to an IP agreement is the toolbox clause. It basically states that the company is hiring me for my experience and that to prevent me from using any new experiences learned at the company would devalue me as a professional. I go on to state explicitly what these experiences are e.g. methodologies, design patterns, etc. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: dennis baldwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:23 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Not only that, it's not the easiest thing to prove that your application was being developed during off-hours. Personally I believe that what I do after 6:00 is my own business yet I know this isn't always the case. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property
Re: programmer vs. developer
CFML... The people I know often use developer as a step up from programmer to indicate someone who designs and plans instead of just codes... That's funny. I tend to prefer to call myself a developer because I think it signifies a step down from programmer. I don't want to come off as putting on airs, but I also feel that at his point, producer or something suitably humble doesn't describe my skill level either. __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Technically I'm not allowed to moonlight in Eastern Pa -- so, I don't. :) But, yes, it's a good question. If I come across a better way of doing something, then, I should in theory own it. I guess that's why I quit giving the company my thoughts, opinions and ideas and turned into a drone worker bee. ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Haggerty, Mike wrote: Wow, that is restrictive! What if you wanted to work on a freelance project outside of work, maybe for charity or something. Does the company own that code and do you have it in writing that they do? M -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator) | __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
I'm in exactly that position. I volunteer my time to do the site for the Avro Museum (www.avromuseum.ca) (shameless plug, I know...). I apply a great deal of what I've learned at work to this site. So, technically, my employer can make a case for owning that work. (oh, I'm salaried too, with a clause in my contract saying the company owns ANY code I write). However, They knew when I was hired that I was working on this site. As an added bonus, a lot of the problems I've had to deal with for the web site were directly applicable to my work as well. So in effect, they didn't have to pay the RD time to resolve these problems. End result is that the company benifits because I'm working on this site, and the Avro Museum benifits because of the nature of my work. Nice trade off here. The catch is that my company is aware of my work, and knows that I am not competing with them. Once they have any suspicion that I'm competing (i.e. If I start making money for my volunteer work...) then they have a legitimate beef against me. But I don't let it get there - I talk to the boss about anything that might be considered a conflict before undertaking it, and he's normally very agreeable. My thoughts. Shawn Grover -Original Message- From: Haggerty, Mike [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:42 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Wow, that is restrictive! What if you wanted to work on a freelance project outside of work, maybe for charity or something. Does the company own that code and do you have it in writing that they do? M -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Not if salaried -Original Message- From: Jillian Carroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:52 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) The interesting question that your comment raises in my mind: If you are never truly 'off', you just aren't at your desk... If 'they' ever fought you on intellectual property, couldn't you retort with a rather hefty claim for overtime owed? heheh :) -- Jillian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator) | __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
If you look at some of the IP agreements, some employers state that ANYTHING conceived, developed, etc while employed with said company it the sole property of said company. Wasn't there a case in the news lately about a company that won the rights to an employee's ideas (even off-the-clock) he had during his tenure at the company? I think they sued him for not disclosing his idea. -Original Message- From: Haggerty, Mike [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Wow, that is restrictive! What if you wanted to work on a freelance project outside of work, maybe for charity or something. Does the company own that code and do you have it in writing that they do? M -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Here in Washington (the state!) there has been an emphasis lately on laws that are on the books. If you are salaried then you can't have things like comp time, 40 hour work weeks, etc. Your only requirement is that you meet the objectives set forth by your supervisor. Caused a lot of joking around here on Mondays about lunch time ... you done with your objectives? yep .. ok, done for the week!. Of course, how close they follow these in all work places I don't know. I'm assuming it was a push by the unions, since part of the laws define who should be salaried and who should be hourly, and progralopers are borderline according to that definition. Now if I only I had documented all thos off the clock hours when I worked at Albertsons ... Dan -Original Message- From: Jillian Carroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:52 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) The interesting question that your comment raises in my mind: If you are never truly 'off', you just aren't at your desk... If 'they' ever fought you on intellectual property, couldn't you retort with a rather hefty claim for overtime owed? heheh :) -- Jillian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd
Re: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
but if you read his later post hes right. If you dont have a agreement you need to get one signed to keep the company from saying you work done on personal time is there work. Bill Wheatley Senior Database Developer Macromedia Certified Advanced Coldfusion Developer EDIETS.COM 954.360.9022 X159 ICQ 417645 - Original Message - From: Jillian Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 2:01 PM Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Re: no agreement, not bound That is really bad advice Matt. The laws still exist protecting intellectual property... I've had colleagues go to court with this very battle. -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:21 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) If you didn't sign an agreement then you are not bound to one. This puts the work on them to prove that everything you produce was done on company time with company resources. I suggest you get your own IP agreement and force your employer to sign it thus protecting yourself. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf
Re: programmer vs. developer
So if you have two people... equally qualified, equal personalities, equal in every way except one goes fishing and one likes to program in his spare time... who would you choose. The short and simple answer to that question is the guy at home... if for no reason other than he doesn't have to dock the boat before logging into the server to fix the problem code that only rears it's head on the weekends. ;-) I would put up for consideration that maybe the one that is coding on weeknights and weekends might not have softskills that I need or might be(come) a disgruntled employee. A person who programs days, nights and weekends might indicate negative things such as they don't have people skills or they're unable to perform in non-coding functions or they're neglecting personal goals, needs and relationships. If you don't need the people you hire to work in a team environment or wear more than one hat, maybe that's ok for you. Although I would again say that hiring people and expecting them to NOT have a balanced life is asking for dissastisfied employees and low morale and high turnover. BUT .. I say alla that and I code days, nights and weekends G. (GAWD I need a life!) Bonnie __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
Don't forget, you'll be spending lots of time with this person if you work directly with them. If they are equal in every way, wouldn't you take the bonus of being able to have interesting conversations as opposed to talking only about code? Whatcha gonna do on thanksgiving weekend? Go over to his house and code or go over to his house and drink a beer and watch a couple of games? Or maybe learn to fish? DRE -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:06 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer Dave, I'm surprised to see such a response from you. You're one of the few people I see on this list 24/7. I'm on the west coast and see you post at 12:42am. If memory serves me correctly you're on the east coast... 3:42am You got up early to go fishing didn't you? ;-) Seriously though... I should have worded my original statement better. That question by no means is a catch all or a disqualifying question. But I have found it to be a valuable question during the interviewing process. And you're absolutely right... just because someone spends a lot of time in front of the screen doesn't make them a good programmer. But their willingness to learn and improve their skills both at work and at home are certainly a bonus. So if you have two people... equally qualified, equal personalities, equal in every way except one goes fishing and one likes to program in his spare time... who would you choose. The short and simple answer to that question is the guy at home... if for no reason other than he doesn't have to dock the boat before logging into the server to fix the problem code that only rears it's head on the weekends. ;-) -Novak - Original Message - From: Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:42 AM Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer One question that is always worth asking during the interviewing process is What types of things/programs do you work on in your spare time? If you get an answer like ...not much really, I go fishing on the weekends... then chances are you've got a programmer who's in it more for the money than the love of programming. I find it odd that people in the field of programming are expected to be so different from people in other fields. Do most doctors, lawyers or plumbers practice their skills in their spare time? Why do we expect programmers to do so? Would you use that as a criteria when hiring any other professional? Also, just because someone enjoys what they do doesn't make them good at it. In fact, I think programming is a field which many people enjoy working in even when they're not especially suited to it. Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
If you don't have the money to pay for a good lawyer then you might want to make use of sample agreements available on the web from trustworthy groups. BTW, most lawyers charge significantly more than $100/hr. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:19 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Not a bad idea. Good suggestion. Now I just need to come up with $100/hr to pay a lawyer. ;) ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: If you didn't sign an agreement then you are not bound to one. This puts the work on them to prove that everything you produce was done on company time with company resources. I suggest you get your own IP agreement and force your employer to sign it thus protecting yourself. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator) | __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
On Thu, 29 Aug 2002 09:14:17 -0700, in cf-talk you wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Agreed. One company I worked for sent me on a 4 day long chat with an IP attorney once upon a time. In short, get everything IP-related in writing before you set foot in the place, and (with this documentation) specifically enumate any previous IP you've developed, and are currently working on or plan to start working on so as to exclude it. The thing to remember is that even if the people you're working for now are a small friendly bunch, that doesn't mean that the company won't be sold tomorrow and the new company's lawyers will try to claim everything you've ever done as their legal IP. ;-) --min __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Come on! Read the rest of my message. My advice was to get an agreement signed. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Jillian Carroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Re: no agreement, not bound That is really bad advice Matt. The laws still exist protecting intellectual property... I've had colleagues go to court with this very battle. -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:21 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) If you didn't sign an agreement then you are not bound to one. This puts the work on them to prove that everything you produce was done on company time with company resources. I suggest you get your own IP agreement and force your employer to sign it thus protecting yourself. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his
RE: programmer vs. developer
At 10:31 AM 8/29/2002 -0400, you wrote: On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Dave Watts wrote: I find it odd that people in the field of programming are expected to be so different from people in other fields. Do most doctors, lawyers or plumbers practice their skills in their spare time? Why do we expect programmers to do so? Would you use that as a criteria when hiring any other professional? The good doctors, lawyers or plumbers keep up with whats current. Those who don't fail. I'm fairly certain that plubming tech. doesn't change anywhere near as quickly as our industry. :) I have heard that said before. But the reality is that, as a programmer (or developer), very little has changed in the theory of computer programming. The languages come and go, but the same principles can be applied to each language. The medium of delivery has changed for many applications since the Internet and WWW came into wide-scale use, however that doesn't change the concepts. Hardware seems to change a lot, but as a programmer (or developer), is it important that I am on top of the every weekly change? What is different than my computer today vs my computer ten years ago? More RAM, more storage space, more processing speed, etc... Nothing new, just better stuff. IMHO, with dr's and lawyers, their industries are at this point so hopelessly inundated with an over-abundance of information ( most of it bad information ) that separating the wheat from the shaff in order to figure out what is good and useful information and hone their skills is a losing battle. As I see it, technology in general is headed that direction also. :eek: I hope not. -- Jeffry Houser | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Need a Web Developer? Contact me! AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My CFMX Book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0072225564/instantcoldfu-20 My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Band: http://www.farcryfly.com __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
I would never work for a company that didn't respect my rights. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Ken Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:17 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) I suggest you get your own IP agreement and force your employer to sign it thus protecting yourself. Assuming, of course, that you're prepared to earn your living elsewhere or that your Intellectual Property is of sufficient immediate market value to sustain you. Not too many employers are likely to respond well to being forced into an agreement by an employee, especially if they view the subject of that agreement to be their own asset. Ken __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Seeing that Matt is President and CEO of Montara Software, and that a number of us on this list have done exactly what he is suggesting, is it really bad advice, or advice some people wouldn't want to take due to their hesitation to anger their employers while the job market pretty much stinks. The last few times I accepted a job (as in becoming someone's employee, not my consulting/contract work, which is a whole different set of legal paperwork), when I was handed NDAs and the typical paperwork upon negotiations, I handed over my own set. I own what I rightfully own, as do my employers. I feel like if I was offered a job with a company that was reluctant to respect my extracurricular endeavors, I might hesitate to accept. Now, being in the situation that has been discussed today, where people might be approaching their current bosses with paperwork, might be difficult. I could certainly understand the thought of a boss saying, Wait a second, you've worked for us for how many years, and you just NOW want us to sign papers? Which is exactly why, if you're going to do it, it's easiest and least surprising to all, to do it upon hiring. I've had subcontractors want to modify their contracts with me in the middle of a project. Needless to say, I'm usually reluctant to do so, but why would I say No outright when it doesn't always make a big difference in the end. Most recently, I sub'd a graphic guy to do some Flash work. My contract with my client was in such a way where I had X ownership to the project. My contract with my subs said they had Y ownership (minimal, to be honest). When half way through the project the designer realized that some of the work would be great for his portfolio, I let him have it. It cost me nothing, as we agreed that revisions to the contract would be out of his pocket. Sound unfair? He didn't think so, and neither do I. We had the paperwork reworded in a few places and now he can brag all he wants about the Flash, while I can't even speak of its existence. Fine with me. Come the weekend, and the end of the project, I really don't want to THINK of its existence, as there are plenty of other things to think about, such as the next project. Remember, lawyers, while costing a fortune, are often a great investment. If doing contract work, you have to cover your expenses, and legal fees would be just one. I'd suggest that if you don't have any fairly generic NDAs and IP contracts to get some made. I've been using the same ones, which set me back a few thousand originally, for several years. Money WELL spent. I too have been to court, twice, and won, once. Was it worth my time? Was it worth my money? Yes. Did I recoup my lost money and IP? Neither time. Just because I won didn't mean I got my money and property, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Oh well, business is tough. Food for thought. ~Brian Ledwith (anyone going to the BACFUG meeting tonight?) -Original Message- From: Jillian Carroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Re: no agreement, not bound That is really bad advice Matt. The laws still exist protecting intellectual property... I've had colleagues go to court with this very battle. -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:21 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) If you didn't sign an agreement then you are not bound to one. This puts the work on them to prove that everything you produce was done on company time with company resources. I suggest you get your own IP agreement and force your employer to sign it thus protecting yourself. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Of course if you don't sign one, then I think the law is on your side. For extra protection, don't create your own intellectual property on your employers time or with your employer's equipment. If you want extra protection, you can copyright your code and stuff. If you ever end up in court and your previous employer is saying I should own the rights to this and you have a copyright form and they have nothing I'm sure it'll go in your favor. At 02:16 PM 8/29/2002 -0400, you wrote: I suggest you get your own IP agreement and force your employer to sign it thus protecting yourself. Assuming, of course, that you're prepared to earn your living elsewhere or that your Intellectual Property is of sufficient immediate market value to sustain you. Not too many employers are likely to respond well to being forced into an agreement by an employee, especially if they view the subject of that agreement to be their own asset. Ken __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
At 12:01 PM 8/29/2002 -0600, you wrote: Re: no agreement, not bound That is really bad advice Matt. I might say that Matt's advice was not No agreement, not bound it was Try to get your employer to sign your own agreement. The laws still exist protecting intellectual property... I've had colleagues go to court with this very battle. But, whose side is the law on? Is it protecting the intellectual property of the employer or the employee? I once turned down a job because there was some clause that all my copyrights would belong to the employer. They refused to discuss changing that. If I write a song, should the rights to that song fall back onto my computer programming boss? No! I would have even considered restricting it to computer programs. -- Jeffry Houser | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Need a Web Developer? Contact me! AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- My CFMX Book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0072225564/instantcoldfu-20 My Books: http://www.instantcoldfusion.com My Band: http://www.farcryfly.com __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
It doesn't really matter if your boss is agreeable or not. What matters is what kind of agreement you signed. I bet your agreeable boss doesn't authorize in writing allowing you to work on other projects. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Shawn Grover [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:18 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) I'm in exactly that position. I volunteer my time to do the site for the Avro Museum (www.avromuseum.ca) (shameless plug, I know...). I apply a great deal of what I've learned at work to this site. So, technically, my employer can make a case for owning that work. (oh, I'm salaried too, with a clause in my contract saying the company owns ANY code I write). However, They knew when I was hired that I was working on this site. As an added bonus, a lot of the problems I've had to deal with for the web site were directly applicable to my work as well. So in effect, they didn't have to pay the RD time to resolve these problems. End result is that the company benifits because I'm working on this site, and the Avro Museum benifits because of the nature of my work. Nice trade off here. The catch is that my company is aware of my work, and knows that I am not competing with them. Once they have any suspicion that I'm competing (i.e. If I start making money for my volunteer work...) then they have a legitimate beef against me. But I don't let it get there - I talk to the boss about anything that might be considered a conflict before undertaking it, and he's normally very agreeable. My thoughts. Shawn Grover -Original Message- From: Haggerty, Mike [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:42 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Wow, that is restrictive! What if you wanted to work on a freelance project outside of work, maybe for charity or something. Does the company own that code and do you have it in writing that they do? M -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just
Re: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
IMHO salary = Evil Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com - Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com - Original Message - From: Dan Haley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:38 PM Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Here in Washington (the state!) there has been an emphasis lately on laws that are on the books. If you are salaried then you can't have things like comp time, 40 hour work weeks, etc. Your only requirement is that you meet the objectives set forth by your supervisor. Caused a lot of joking around here on Mondays about lunch time ... you done with your objectives? yep .. ok, done for the week!. Of course, how close they follow these in all work places I don't know. I'm assuming it was a push by the unions, since part of the laws define who should be salaried and who should be hourly, and progralopers are borderline according to that definition. Now if I only I had documented all thos off the clock hours when I worked at Albertsons ... Dan -Original Message- From: Jillian Carroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:52 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) The interesting question that your comment raises in my mind: If you are never truly 'off', you just aren't at your desk... If 'they' ever fought you on intellectual property, couldn't you retort with a rather hefty claim for overtime owed? heheh :) -- Jillian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Yes, I know that Matt. I was joking about the lawyer payscale ... and, like someone else mentioned, I don't think it'd go over well if I presented an IP agreement to my company. Sure, not working for the tyrant to begin with avoids the problem, but... something's has to pay my bills around here and the current economy isn't really in a good position for me to switch jobs just yet. In fact, Pittsburgh is pretty dead development wise (for CF). Majority of the CF jobs open in Pgh, well... the company I worked for designed/developed something for them and I can't go client hopping for work. So... anyway... that's all I have to say about that. ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: If you don't have the money to pay for a good lawyer then you might want to make use of sample agreements available on the web from trustworthy groups. BTW, most lawyers charge significantly more than $100/hr. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
I can't speak for the US (as I live in Canada)... but it is a common misconception that just because you are 'on salary', that they can work you as much as they want. In Canada, there is a maximum of 40 hours per week or 80 hours in a 14 day period. Now... there are certainly other rules. They can work you more, but you are to be paid overtime... or if you are paid a bonus/commission, if it reaches an amount that is comparable to what the overtime would have been... it is considered 'in lieu' of overtime in many cases. The Labour Board would be delighted to contact any employer and let them know the law. :) -Original Message- From: Bryan F. Hogan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:24 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Not if salaried -Original Message- From: Jillian Carroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:52 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) The interesting question that your comment raises in my mind: If you are never truly 'off', you just aren't at your desk... If 'they' ever fought you on intellectual property, couldn't you retort with a rather hefty claim for overtime owed? heheh :) -- Jillian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Being salaried does not mean you are not due over time. Salary is still based on 40 hours weeks plus/minus a few I think. J. John Wilker Codito, ergo sum Web Applications Consultant, and Writer Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer President/Founder, Inland Empire CFUG. www.red-omega.com I asked Do you know DOS? The reply was: No, but I met Tom and Drew a few minutes ago. -Original Message- From: Bryan F. Hogan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:24 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Not if salaried -Original Message- From: Jillian Carroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:52 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) The interesting question that your comment raises in my mind: If you are never truly 'off', you just aren't at your desk... If 'they' ever fought you on intellectual property, couldn't you retort with a rather hefty claim for overtime owed? heheh :) -- Jillian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com
RE: programmer vs. developer
I think there is a difference between Keeping current and fanatically doing nothing but coding into the wee hours and forgetting what the sun actually looks like. I think what our industry lacks is a happy medium. J. John Wilker Codito, ergo sum Web Applications Consultant, and Writer Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer President/Founder, Inland Empire CFUG. www.red-omega.com I asked Do you know DOS? The reply was: No, but I met Tom and Drew a few minutes ago. -Original Message- From: Alex [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 7:17 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Dave Watts wrote: I find it odd that people in the field of programming are expected to be so different from people in other fields. Do most doctors, lawyers or plumbers practice their skills in their spare time? Why do we expect programmers to do so? Would you use that as a criteria when hiring any other professional? The good doctors, lawyers or plumbers keep up with whats current. Those who don't fail. Also, just because someone enjoys what they do doesn't make them good at it. In fact, I think programming is a field which many people enjoy working in even when they're not especially suited to it. And they are paid accordingly. expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. You can treat any field like a job and get your end of week paycheck. But those who really enjoy it like to play with it more often and tend to be more successful. __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
I do spend a good amount of my off time programming for side work or personal projects but I agree with Dave, our industry focuses way too much on giving up a life in the pursuit of programming. I don't enjoy working with people who spend nights and weekends coding then come to work and code. There needs to be a release. I am very much not a textbook programmer but try to spend as little time as possible coding when I don't need to. Doctors aren't judged differently if they aren't cutting people up in their garages, or electricians for not tearing apart their air conditioners for practice. I love what I do and love that I seem to be pretty good, I love even more that I am a 9-5 well actually a 6:30-4:00 programmer. J. John Wilker Codito, ergo sum Web Applications Consultant, and Writer Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer President/Founder, Inland Empire CFUG. www.red-omega.com I asked Do you know DOS? The reply was: No, but I met Tom and Drew a few minutes ago. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 9:27 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer Jeff, Very true... I could have worded what I said a little better. Basically what I'm interested in knowing is Do you do any programming, development, or learning on your own time? Do new computers, new software, and new programming concepts, etc fascinate you or are you just a 9-5 programmer? It's a very good way to weed out the people who tend to be the textbook programmers from the ones who live and breath the stuff... -Novak Arguments could definitely be made for that, however I still think getting away from the computer for a bit is good for me. __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
So if you have two people... equally qualified, equal personalities, equal in every way except one goes fishing and one likes to program in his spare time... who would you choose. The short and simple answer to that question is the guy at home... if for no reason other than he doesn't have to dock the boat before logging into the server to fix the problem code that only rears it's head on the weekends. ;-) My thinking on this is I would hire the guy who fishes. I want to surround myself with quality and intelligent people, but I also don't want them to burn out in a year or two. All things being equal I would always pick the fisher, the home repair handyman, the car fixer-upper, etc.. J. John Wilker Codito, ergo sum Web Applications Consultant, and Writer Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer President/Founder, Inland Empire CFUG. www.red-omega.com I asked Do you know DOS? The reply was: No, but I met Tom and Drew a few minutes ago. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:06 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer Dave, I'm surprised to see such a response from you. You're one of the few people I see on this list 24/7. I'm on the west coast and see you post at 12:42am. If memory serves me correctly you're on the east coast... 3:42am You got up early to go fishing didn't you? ;-) Seriously though... I should have worded my original statement better. That question by no means is a catch all or a disqualifying question. But I have found it to be a valuable question during the interviewing process. And you're absolutely right... just because someone spends a lot of time in front of the screen doesn't make them a good programmer. But their willingness to learn and improve their skills both at work and at home are certainly a bonus. So if you have two people... equally qualified, equal personalities, equal in every way except one goes fishing and one likes to program in his spare time... who would you choose. The short and simple answer to that question is the guy at home... if for no reason other than he doesn't have to dock the boat before logging into the server to fix the problem code that only rears it's head on the weekends. ;-) -Novak - Original Message - From: Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:42 AM Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer One question that is always worth asking during the interviewing process is What types of things/programs do you work on in your spare time? If you get an answer like ...not much really, I go fishing on the weekends... then chances are you've got a programmer who's in it more for the money than the love of programming. I find it odd that people in the field of programming are expected to be so different from people in other fields. Do most doctors, lawyers or plumbers practice their skills in their spare time? Why do we expect programmers to do so? Would you use that as a criteria when hiring any other professional? Also, just because someone enjoys what they do doesn't make them good at it. In fact, I think programming is a field which many people enjoy working in even when they're not especially suited to it. Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
The recent case was totally off the charts stupid... The guy had an idea... never exercised it... totally in his free time.. nothing developed on it... His company was acquired and off he went as an asset.. At some point he says, I want to go do something else with my life and develop one of my ideas... The brass says oh and idea huh... interesting... we own your mind.. Then sue him for something that has 0 relationship to his body of responsibility, job detail, their industry, their products, etc... So yes, IP baloney has gone too far... I emailed the guy and said I felt bad that our legal system has become such a tragedy... Even offered to drop a few bucks his way to help him out... The company in this matter was Alcatel... -paris -Original Message- From: Ryan Kime [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 3:33 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) If you look at some of the IP agreements, some employers state that ANYTHING conceived, developed, etc while employed with said company it the sole property of said company. Wasn't there a case in the news lately about a company that won the rights to an employee's ideas (even off-the-clock) he had during his tenure at the company? I think they sued him for not disclosing his idea. -Original Message- From: Haggerty, Mike [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Wow, that is restrictive! What if you wanted to work on a freelance project outside of work, maybe for charity or something. Does the company own that code and do you have it in writing that they do? M -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:08 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Good point. John Wilker Codito, ergo sum Web Applications Consultant, and Writer Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer President/Founder, Inland Empire CFUG. www.red-omega.com I asked Do you know DOS? The reply was: No, but I met Tom and Drew a few minutes ago. -Original Message- From: Jillian Carroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:52 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) The interesting question that your comment raises in my mind: If you are never truly 'off', you just aren't at your desk... If 'they' ever fought you on intellectual property, couldn't you retort with a rather hefty claim for overtime owed? heheh :) -- Jillian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time they give me for a particular project. My methodology for example. The project manager basically scoped out what he felt my co-worker and I were developing, asked me to read this over and ... published it on the intranet. At the same time, I'm thinking to myself, why did I just do that? What did I gain from it? I got no recognition for it, I got nothing. So, if I were to ever break away from my current job, I'd be pretty screwed if they found out that I'm still using 'my' so called methodology for future clients. I'm very concerned about the future and maturity level of the so called internet/development companies out there. How does figleaf handle creative ideas like this? Case in point, Branden Hall. I'm sure he cranks out actionscripting code all day long and posts code left and right and handles what he can to help people out. How does Figleaf distinguish between his intellectual property and commercial value? Does Branden run every little script of code over to someone at figleaf and ask for permission to release it? If Figleaf uses his code that he wrote on his time, does he get compensated? recognized? Does Figleaf automatically by default suck in his code into their intellectual property library because it was used that one time? Just curious, ~Todd -- Todd Rafferty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - http://www.web-rat.com/ | Team Macromedia Volunteer for ColdFusion | http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/team_macromedia/ | http://www.flashCFM.com/ - webRat (Moderator)| http://www.ultrashock.com/ - webRat (Back-end Moderator
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
LOL. I don't know about evil, but certainly a PITA when it comes to compensation... Though the 2.5 hours lunch I took today sure was fun ;-) J. John Wilker Codito, ergo sum Web Applications Consultant, and Writer Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer President/Founder, Inland Empire CFUG. www.red-omega.com I asked Do you know DOS? The reply was: No, but I met Tom and Drew a few minutes ago. -Original Message- From: Bryan Stevenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 4:14 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) IMHO salary = Evil Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com - Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com - Original Message - From: Dan Haley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:38 PM Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Here in Washington (the state!) there has been an emphasis lately on laws that are on the books. If you are salaried then you can't have things like comp time, 40 hour work weeks, etc. Your only requirement is that you meet the objectives set forth by your supervisor. Caused a lot of joking around here on Mondays about lunch time ... you done with your objectives? yep .. ok, done for the week!. Of course, how close they follow these in all work places I don't know. I'm assuming it was a push by the unions, since part of the laws define who should be salaried and who should be hourly, and progralopers are borderline according to that definition. Now if I only I had documented all thos off the clock hours when I worked at Albertsons ... Dan -Original Message- From: Jillian Carroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:52 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) The interesting question that your comment raises in my mind: If you are never truly 'off', you just aren't at your desk... If 'they' ever fought you on intellectual property, couldn't you retort with a rather hefty claim for overtime owed? heheh :) -- Jillian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software /quote Dave, Curious question for you. To those of us that enjoy programming as a hobby and actually do research on our own outside of work time. How does intellectual property fit into this. The reason why I bring this up is because well, due to the immaturity of most comapnies wanting their developers to work 24/7, basically anything I concieve of is by right of employment contract, theirs. In their eyes, a salaried employee is something akin to a ... well... a wageslave. Take the little company I work for. They'd love it if I worked for them 24/7. The partners would get a kick out of it, especially if they could purchase another SUV within a few months. However, I have been hesitant to hand over anything, but at times, I've had no choice due to the lack of time
RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer)
Salary shouldn't be confused with slavery... Every state has a different say on it Essentially, the majority of people who work bad jobs and make up the majority of the population and at best are represented by unions to have rights don't exactly like salaried people. They view us like they do management and believe we are compensated well and deserve what we get... For the most part, I have to agree with them. It's two school's of thought, the hourly vs. the predictable salary. At any rate, there are loads of case law on people claiming overtime compensation because they were forced to work long hours and paid salary... I know myself, in the past, I have put in 300+ hours in a month with no additional benefit financially or spiritually as a salaried being.. Overall, as an employer, you can't generally make people work much more than 40 hours... 60 hours is pretty much the cap before people can say hey That's a 12 hour work day and that still is normal in some countries... If you find yourself working too much and its a problem write a letter to your supervisor.. Email is fine... have them address it in email... That gives you a time and dated transcript... Note the issue clearly... Explain the position... I find that at any point where I have had employees report to me, that if such were to occur I would gladly slide them some off time flexibly so.. Pickup some in house dining or give them some $200 gadget they might want... It's never cut clean being an employee or an employer... I personally stay away from body shops, banking, government and other places that tend to have employee issues... If you choose to work in stagnant environments with abusive folks you deserve the problems you have... People are the most expensive item to almost every company... Keeping employees working, inspired and productive reaps a great deal more positivity than oppressive, controlling management styles do. -paris Paris Lundis Founder Areaindex, L.L.C. http://www.areaindex.com http://www.pubcrawler.com (p) 1-212-655-4477 [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: John Wilker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:19 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Being salaried does not mean you are not due over time. Salary is still based on 40 hours weeks plus/minus a few I think. J. John Wilker Codito, ergo sum Web Applications Consultant, and Writer Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer President/Founder, Inland Empire CFUG. www.red-omega.com I asked Do you know DOS? The reply was: No, but I met Tom and Drew a few minutes ago. -Original Message- From: Bryan F. Hogan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:24 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) Not if salaried -Original Message- From: Jillian Carroll [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:52 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) The interesting question that your comment raises in my mind: If you are never truly 'off', you just aren't at your desk... If 'they' ever fought you on intellectual property, couldn't you retort with a rather hefty claim for overtime owed? heheh :) -- Jillian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:08 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) little shops don't really have an intellectual property agreement, but none the less... their term of everything you develop for us is rather broad in scope... some assume that it also covers off-hour times, some assume that as a salaried employee, you're never 'off', you're just not at your desk (e.g. You've been given permission to physically leave the building). ~Todd On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Matt Liotta wrote: You should have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired. It details you rights in this regard. As with all legal matters, you are advised to seek counsel from a professional. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ V: 415-577-8070 F: 415-341-8906 P: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Intellectual property (was RE: programmer vs. developer) quote Finally, I think this expectation that most of us have about being a programmer 24/7 demonstrates the relative immaturity of our field; after all, it really should be just like any other job, instead of being a hobby that you happen to get paid for. Sure, it's nice to enjoy your work, but work is just one part of the life of a well-rounded person. Dave Watts, CTO
Re: programmer vs. developer
In MMs mind, a programmer is one who uses a compiled language like Java or C++. A developer is someone who uses a scripting language like CF. This is a totally artificial distinction and one I reject on every level. I program. So do you. We're programmers. whats the difference? __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
A developer developes, a programmer programs. -Original Message- From: Phoeun Pha [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 28 August 2002 18:42 To: CF-Talk Subject: programmer vs. developer whats the difference? __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
imho: developer has these as his/her strong suit: 50/50 on graphical interface/programming work photoshop/fireworks flash cf sql javascript dhtml a programmer is a language guru: all ecma based scripts cf maybe some vbscript/asp (if that be their flavor of choice) sql (cant get too far without this guy) ..tony Tony Weeg Senior Web Developer Information System Design Navtrak, Inc. Fleet Management Solutions www.navtrak.net 410.548.2337 -Original Message- From: Phoeun Pha [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 1:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: programmer vs. developer whats the difference? __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
If you consider yourself a programmer because you write cfml then you're saying cfml is a programming language? Ade -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 28 August 2002 18:52 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer In MMs mind, a programmer is one who uses a compiled language like Java or C++. A developer is someone who uses a scripting language like CF. This is a totally artificial distinction and one I reject on every level. I program. So do you. We're programmers. whats the difference? __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: programmer vs. developer
Define a programming language and see if CF fits into it. Does it store variables? Do conditional logic? iterate loops? convert data? What makes C++ a programming language and CF not one? If you say that CF is just built on top of C++, then every C++ and java programmer aren't really programmers as they're not writing machine code. The argument is an artificial one. I'm a programmer because I use a computer language to write applications (even a single template) that runs on a computer to process some data. If you consider yourself a programmer because you write cfml then you're saying cfml is a programming language? Ade -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 28 August 2002 18:52 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer In MMs mind, a programmer is one who uses a compiled language like Java or C++. A developer is someone who uses a scripting language like CF. This is a totally artificial distinction and one I reject on every level. I program. So do you. We're programmers. whats the difference? __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
no difference in my eyes. Unless you want to make a distinction between writing code, and designing the architechture for the code (application analysis/design). But I never see these terms used to describe these two different roles. Most programmers have to do some architecture design anyways Shawn -Original Message- From: Phoeun Pha [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 11:42 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: programmer vs. developer whats the difference? __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: programmer vs. developer
whats the difference? You'll probably get lots of disparate answers to this question. I've heard people use the difference to indicate that a developer does planning and architectural design work whereas a programmer just does programming and makes sure an application achieves the features requested in the functional specification, without regard to wholistic questions about what the application is for or who will use it. Which is usually what I intend to imply when I tell people I'm a developer (that is, that I do more than just programming). I've also seen or heard people make the distinction that a programmer is someone who works with traditional ( usually compiled ) languages like C/C++ and Java whereas a developer just toys with web scripts and other interpreted stuff... This isn't a distinction I much care for, because imho it encourages a gratuitous continued antagonism between the old-school and the new, but I've heard it used. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
Mikey, It's just that i saw certification classes for Java programmer, and Java developer. Is developer reserved for WEB? And programmer reserved for Stand Alone apps? -Original Message- From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 12:52 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer In MMs mind, a programmer is one who uses a compiled language like Java or C++. A developer is someone who uses a scripting language like CF. This is a totally artificial distinction and one I reject on every level. I program. So do you. We're programmers. whats the difference? __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: programmer vs. developer
isn't one just a little uglier older than the other ? *grin check out http://www.webopedia.com see what you come up with. Phoeun Pha wrote: whats the difference? __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
Yes, We program. But in the grand scheme of things, for demographic purposes we are considered developers, not just MM but to the computer world. Programmers beat us to the programming way back when computers were invented. They got first rights to use that name in generic terms. We don't do what they do. We program web pages/applications, but are considered 'developers'. I'm glad you feel so strongly about it, but I think it doesn't really matter and you definitely shouldn't be losing any sleep over it. That's just me. t ** Tyler M. Fitch Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer http://isitedesign.com ** -Original Message- From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 10:52 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer In MMs mind, a programmer is one who uses a compiled language like Java or C++. A developer is someone who uses a scripting language like CF. This is a totally artificial distinction and one I reject on every level. I program. So do you. We're programmers. whats the difference? __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: programmer vs. developer
If you write applications, what's the difference (in the end) if it's done in Java or CF? Technically, here at Ohio University, my title is Web Analyst/Programmer. But I always describe myself as a web applications developer, because most of what I do is developing applications (programs) to utilize mainframe/legacy systems. But instead of being a desktop fat client application, they are web/browser based thin client applications. Cost of ownership is much less than running around all over campus to update software on the client workstations. I'm with you Michael, I don't agree with MM's take on this. Dave === David R Hannum Ohio University Web Analyst/Programmer (740) 597-2524 [EMAIL PROTECTED] If your wife is having fun and you're not, you're still having a lot more fun than if you're having fun and she's not!' - Red Green - Original Message - From: Michael Dinowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 1:52 PM Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer In MMs mind, a programmer is one who uses a compiled language like Java or C++. A developer is someone who uses a scripting language like CF. This is a totally artificial distinction and one I reject on every level. I program. So do you. We're programmers. whats the difference? __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: programmer vs. developer
You have to ask whoever's offering the classes. The terms are used differently by every group as you've seen from the responses. I only replied on one definition that has been used and that might not be the one they're using. Mikey, It's just that i saw certification classes for Java programmer, and Java developer. Is developer reserved for WEB? And programmer reserved for Stand Alone apps? -Original Message- From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 12:52 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer In MMs mind, a programmer is one who uses a compiled language like Java or C++. A developer is someone who uses a scripting language like CF. This is a totally artificial distinction and one I reject on every level. I program. So do you. We're programmers. whats the difference? __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: programmer vs. developer
Adrian Lynch writes: A developer developes, a programmer programs. could a developer develop programs? :) -Original Message- From: Phoeun Pha [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 28 August 2002 18:42 To: CF-Talk Subject: programmer vs. developer whats the difference? __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
A baker bakes and a shoe smells (sorry.. Couldn't resist) | -Original Message- | From: Adrian Lynch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] | Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 10:54 AM | To: CF-Talk | Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer | | | A developer developes, a programmer programs. | | -Original Message- | From: Phoeun Pha [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] | Sent: 28 August 2002 18:42 | To: CF-Talk | Subject: programmer vs. developer | | | whats the difference? | __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
Thanks MOTO :-) -Original Message- From: Adrian Lynch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 1:54 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer A developer developes, a programmer programs. -Original Message- From: Phoeun Pha [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 28 August 2002 18:42 To: CF-Talk Subject: programmer vs. developer whats the difference? __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: programmer vs. developer
Developes? How does that differ from develop? ;-) -Novak - Original Message - From: Adrian Lynch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 10:54 AM Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer A developer developes, a programmer programs. -Original Message- From: Phoeun Pha [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 28 August 2002 18:42 To: CF-Talk Subject: programmer vs. developer whats the difference? __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: programmer vs. developer
I see the difference more as a granularity division. Programmer and coder and scripter and user of dreamweaver and geocities page designer all fall under the generic umbrella of developer. Programmer, on the other hand, indicates to me the ability to use and understand logic constructs such as if/then, loops, case structures, boolean logic, datatypes, and maybe, just maybe modular code design. Jerry Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/28/02 01:52PM In MMs mind, a programmer is one who uses a compiled language like Java or C++. A developer is someone who uses a scripting language like CF. This is a totally artificial distinction and one I reject on every level. I program. So do you. We're programmers. whats the difference? __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: programmer vs. developer
Sorry son, but us humans have beaten you to the name human way back. Doesn't matter that your the same, but you can't be a human. How about neo-human? Its just as good. We're programmers as much as someone 10 years ago are programmers. Hey, many of us were programmers back then as well. Its a false distinction that has a definition only within the minds of those who want to make the distinction. Yes, We program. But in the grand scheme of things, for demographic purposes we are considered developers, not just MM but to the computer world. Programmers beat us to the programming way back when computers were invented. They got first rights to use that name in generic terms. We don't do what they do. We program web pages/applications, but are considered 'developers'. I'm glad you feel so strongly about it, but I think it doesn't really matter and you definitely shouldn't be losing any sleep over it. That's just me. t ** Tyler M. Fitch Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer http://isitedesign.com ** -Original Message- From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 10:52 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer In MMs mind, a programmer is one who uses a compiled language like Java or C++. A developer is someone who uses a scripting language like CF. This is a totally artificial distinction and one I reject on every level. I program. So do you. We're programmers. whats the difference? __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
ok so what happens in this case: Web Designer Web Developer Web Application Designer Web Application Developer imho: designer = graphic intensive training (ps, fw, flash (no actionscript), director (no lingo), etc) programmer = coder but more along the lines of c++, c, vb and web technologies developer = more web languages (cf, asp, sql, vb, java, swing, js, jscript, html, dhtml, xml, wap/wml etc) And then you get a title like Web Application Engineer and that is where i stop trying to figure it out! ;-) Big T -Original Message- From: Tony Weeg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 1:56 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer imho: developer has these as his/her strong suit: 50/50 on graphical interface/programming work photoshop/fireworks flash cf sql javascript dhtml a programmer is a language guru: all ecma based scripts cf maybe some vbscript/asp (if that be their flavor of choice) sql (cant get too far without this guy) .tony Tony Weeg Senior Web Developer Information System Design Navtrak, Inc. Fleet Management Solutions www.navtrak.net 410.548.2337 -Original Message- From: Phoeun Pha [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 1:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: programmer vs. developer whats the difference? __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
WHO, they told me at walmart when I bought that book on java that I was going to be a programmer in 21 days. its refund time. programmer schmogrammers, developes schmelopers its all the samewho caresits just nomenclature. lets get back to code questions in hereforget this off topic stuff. hey, mike I think we need an CFOT-List so that people can vent their odd OT questions/iterations/musings there and magically no one will respond, and soon they will see how absolutely unimportant most of these are ;) ..tony Tony Weeg Senior Web Developer Information System Design Navtrak, Inc. Fleet Management Solutions www.navtrak.net 410.548.2337 -Original Message- From: Adrian Lynch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 1:59 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer If you consider yourself a programmer because you write cfml then you're saying cfml is a programming language? Ade -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 28 August 2002 18:52 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer In MMs mind, a programmer is one who uses a compiled language like Java or C++. A developer is someone who uses a scripting language like CF. This is a totally artificial distinction and one I reject on every level. I program. So do you. We're programmers. whats the difference? __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: programmer vs. developer
So your saying that this thread has moved from anything useful into totall off topic stuff and should be moved to CF-Community? I agree. Please forward all posts on this thread to CF-Community. (maybe I should add a feature to the list to automatically move a threat to different lists. ) WHO, they told me at walmart when I bought that book on java that I was going to be a programmer in 21 days. its refund time. programmer schmogrammers, developes schmelopers its all the samewho caresits just nomenclature. lets get back to code questions in hereforget this off topic stuff. hey, mike I think we need an CFOT-List so that people can vent their odd OT questions/iterations/musings there and magically no one will respond, and soon they will see how absolutely unimportant most of these are ;) ..tony Tony Weeg Senior Web Developer Information System Design Navtrak, Inc. Fleet Management Solutions www.navtrak.net 410.548.2337 -Original Message- From: Adrian Lynch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 1:59 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer If you consider yourself a programmer because you write cfml then you're saying cfml is a programming language? Ade -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 28 August 2002 18:52 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer In MMs mind, a programmer is one who uses a compiled language like Java or C++. A developer is someone who uses a scripting language like CF. This is a totally artificial distinction and one I reject on every level. I program. So do you. We're programmers. whats the difference? __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
Lets face it, not everyone is going to agree that scripting languages are programming languages. I personally think that programming languages encompass scripting languages as well (I have a C++ background as well as others.. PERL, CF, JAVA, etc..). I tend to notice that people who know C++/JAVA/etc... ALONG with CF tend to side with those who think that CF is not a programming language for the simple reason that they would like to stand out from others.. the 1 up attitude. I think this is ridiculous. It's simple, there is no definitive answer. I can do many things with C++ I can not do with CF and vice versa... now whats the difference? Lets move on to a more useable discussion. -Original Message- From: Adrian Lynch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 1:59 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer If you consider yourself a programmer because you write cfml then you're saying cfml is a programming language? Ade -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 28 August 2002 18:52 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer In MMs mind, a programmer is one who uses a compiled language like Java or C++. A developer is someone who uses a scripting language like CF. This is a totally artificial distinction and one I reject on every level. I program. So do you. We're programmers. whats the difference? __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
A programmer writes code, of any sort, it is a stretch but you can call HTML code. A developer may be a programmer as well, but I see a developer as somebody who creates something, or develops something, it might not involve programming, but it does not exclude it. Home Developer, Web Developer, Application Developer. -Original Message- From: Phoeun Pha [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 1:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: programmer vs. developer whats the difference? __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
I agree with Michael. If you 'develop' an application that involves stuff like conditional branching, variables blah blah you are programming. Even a DOS batch file could be considered programming, although the vast majority of them were just line by line command files. The batch file 'language' was a programming language. CFML is a programming language. To say otherwise is a semantic argument that doesn't belong anywhere but a classroom. P.s. I'm wearing asbestos underwear... ;D --Matt Robertson-- MSB Designs, Inc. http://mysecretbase.com -Original Message- From: Adrian Lynch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 10:59 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer If you consider yourself a programmer because you write cfml then you're saying cfml is a programming language? Ade -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 28 August 2002 18:52 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer In MMs mind, a programmer is one who uses a compiled language like Java or C++. A developer is someone who uses a scripting language like CF. This is a totally artificial distinction and one I reject on every level. I program. So do you. We're programmers. whats the difference? __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
Check out the 3rd entry: http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=programmer I'm not from a programming background, and ironically, neither are my clients. So as far as I'm concerned, I'm whatever my client is looking for. Who cares what title I have, as long as I can meet the requirements of my customers. Most don't even ask (or care) what programming language I use. They just want pretty buttons :) -Original Message- From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 1:52 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer In MMs mind, a programmer is one who uses a compiled language like Java or C++. A developer is someone who uses a scripting language like CF. This is a totally artificial distinction and one I reject on every level. I program. So do you. We're programmers. whats the difference? __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: programmer vs. developer
That nails it for me - I couldn't agree more. Im a programmer because I use a computer language to write applications (even a single template) that runs on a computer to process some data. Michael Dinowitz wrote: Define a programming language and see if CF fits into it. Does it store variables? Do conditional logic? iterate loops? convert data? What makes C++ a programming language and CF not one? If you say that CF is just built on top of C++, then every C++ and java programmer aren't really programmers as they're not writing machine code. The argument is an artificial one. I'm a programmer because I use a computer language to write applications (even a single template) that runs on a computer to process some data. If you consider yourself a programmer because you write cfml then you're saying cfml is a programming language? Ade -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] Sent: 28 August 2002 18:52 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer In MMs mind, a programmer is one who uses a compiled language like Java or C++. A developer is someone who uses a scripting language like CF. This is a totally artificial distinction and one I reject on every level. I program. So do you. We're programmers. whats the difference? __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
whats the difference? I always thought programmer sounded so 80's. Developer is just the hip, new term. I believe the cool name now is Information Architect. g Ben Johnson Information Architect www.architekture.com [p] 720.934.2179 __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: programmer vs. developer
Developer is just another way to say programmer since programmer is a Dorky type work. I'm a programmer i dont care if its just asp its still programming. I do C++ C JSP and the rest of the shit out there. And if i want to be called programmer i will. But lately the trend is to be called developer becuase programmer is the geek version. IMHO. Its same old crap where someone says because you do CF you're not as much a real programmer as someone who does C or ASP even because its more complicated. Being complicated does not a programming langauage make. CF is simplistic but i've seen some awesomely complex CF apps before. Its all in the eyes of the beholder. Bill Wheatley Senior Database Developer Macromedia Certified Advanced Coldfusion Developer EDIETS.COM 954.360.9022 X159 ICQ 417645 - Original Message - From: Fitch, Tyler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 2:13 PM Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer Yes, We program. But in the grand scheme of things, for demographic purposes we are considered developers, not just MM but to the computer world. Programmers beat us to the programming way back when computers were invented. They got first rights to use that name in generic terms. We don't do what they do. We program web pages/applications, but are considered 'developers'. I'm glad you feel so strongly about it, but I think it doesn't really matter and you definitely shouldn't be losing any sleep over it. That's just me. t ** Tyler M. Fitch Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer http://isitedesign.com ** -Original Message- From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 10:52 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer In MMs mind, a programmer is one who uses a compiled language like Java or C++. A developer is someone who uses a scripting language like CF. This is a totally artificial distinction and one I reject on every level. I program. So do you. We're programmers. whats the difference? __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
What do you mean, we don't do what they do? -Original Message- From: Fitch, Tyler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] We don't do what they do. We program web pages/applications, but are considered 'developers'. __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
About $30-50k a year. ; ) -Original Message- From: Phoeun Pha [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 12:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: programmer vs. developer whats the difference? __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: programmer vs. developer
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Developes? How does that differ from develop? ;-) Develope (deh-veh-lohp) v: - to develop in the middle of the night without anybody else's prior knowledge. Usually done in groups of two, and in seedy computer labs in Las Vegas. -Novak - Original Message - From: Adrian Lynch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 10:54 AM Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer A developer developes, a programmer programs. -Original Message- From: Phoeun Pha [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 28 August 2002 18:42 To: CF-Talk Subject: programmer vs. developer whats the difference? __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
grins Does that mean that you only do web apps Tyler? I know a large number of people on this list bounce from web apps, to desktop apps (via VB, C/C++, Delphi, C#, etc.) - myself included. Currently, I help with a web app project while I wait for my client to get back to me regarding the VB app I'm doing for them. Does this make me a developer or a programmer? My thoughts. Shawn Grover -Original Message- From: Fitch, Tyler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 12:14 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer Yes, We program. But in the grand scheme of things, for demographic purposes we are considered developers, not just MM but to the computer world. Programmers beat us to the programming way back when computers were invented. They got first rights to use that name in generic terms. We don't do what they do. We program web pages/applications, but are considered 'developers'. I'm glad you feel so strongly about it, but I think it doesn't really matter and you definitely shouldn't be losing any sleep over it. That's just me. t ** Tyler M. Fitch Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer http://isitedesign.com ** -Original Message- From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 10:52 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer In MMs mind, a programmer is one who uses a compiled language like Java or C++. A developer is someone who uses a scripting language like CF. This is a totally artificial distinction and one I reject on every level. I program. So do you. We're programmers. whats the difference? __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: programmer vs. developer
No difference. But I have noticed less talented people like to have a more sophisticated title. On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Phoeun Pha wrote: whats the difference? __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: programmer vs. developer
What about a new term: develogrammer or prograloper For sure will impress managers looking for new buzzwords Marius Milosav www.scorpiosoft.com It's not about technology, it's about people. Virtual Company (VICO) Application Demo www.scorpiosoft.com/vicodemo/login.cfm - Original Message - From: Tangorre, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 2:22 PM Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer Thanks MOTO :-) -Original Message- From: Adrian Lynch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 1:54 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer A developer developes, a programmer programs. -Original Message- From: Phoeun Pha [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 28 August 2002 18:42 To: CF-Talk Subject: programmer vs. developer whats the difference? __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
I am certified as a sun java programmer. It's the first level in the tests and basically just a syntax test. On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Phoeun Pha wrote: Mikey, It's just that i saw certification classes for Java programmer, and Java developer. Is developer reserved for WEB? And programmer reserved for Stand Alone apps? -Original Message- From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 12:52 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer In MMs mind, a programmer is one who uses a compiled language like Java or C++. A developer is someone who uses a scripting language like CF. This is a totally artificial distinction and one I reject on every level. I program. So do you. We're programmers. whats the difference? __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
He has a OT List, CFCommunity. ~Todd On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Tony Weeg wrote: WHO, they told me at walmart when I bought that book on java that I was going to be a programmer in 21 days. its refund time. programmer schmogrammers, developes schmelopers its all the samewho caresits just nomenclature. lets get back to code questions in hereforget this off topic stuff. hey, mike I think we need an CFOT-List so that people can vent their odd OT questions/iterations/musings there and magically no one will respond, and soon they will see how absolutely unimportant most of these are ;) ..tony Tony Weeg Senior Web Developer Information System Design Navtrak, Inc. Fleet Management Solutions www.navtrak.net 410.548.2337 -Original Message- From: Adrian Lynch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 1:59 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer If you consider yourself a programmer because you write cfml then you're saying cfml is a programming language? Ade -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 28 August 2002 18:52 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer In MMs mind, a programmer is one who uses a compiled language like Java or C++. A developer is someone who uses a scripting language like CF. This is a totally artificial distinction and one I reject on every level. I program. So do you. We're programmers. whats the difference? __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
I think a developer is one who takes a concept and produces a functioning application with all that makes it such. A programmer on the other hand is given specific tasks and writes the code to fulfil that task. A programmer would be given a task such as write this block to accomplish this function while a developer would be involved in writing an application from end to end with all the functionality included. Developers I think typically work on projects from end to end. My $.02 -Original Message- From: Matt Robertson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 2:42 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer I agree with Michael. If you 'develop' an application that involves stuff like conditional branching, variables blah blah you are programming. Even a DOS batch file could be considered programming, although the vast majority of them were just line by line command files. The batch file 'language' was a programming language. CFML is a programming language. To say otherwise is a semantic argument that doesn't belong anywhere but a classroom. P.s. I'm wearing asbestos underwear... ;D --Matt Robertson-- MSB Designs, Inc. http://mysecretbase.com -Original Message- From: Adrian Lynch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 10:59 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: programmer vs. developer If you consider yourself a programmer because you write cfml then you're saying cfml is a programming language? Ade -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 28 August 2002 18:52 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer In MMs mind, a programmer is one who uses a compiled language like Java or C++. A developer is someone who uses a scripting language like CF. This is a totally artificial distinction and one I reject on every level. I program. So do you. We're programmers. whats the difference? __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: programmer vs. developer
I think it's ego and class distinction. I remember my first time trying to learn to make web pages, and I would use an application to do itsay, dreamweaver. I'd ask some coder questions, and he would go off on how these programs sucked and Notepad all the way!. I guess it's like this. He had to learn how to make DHTML menus using raw code. I just pressed a button and thought I was a coder! -Original Message- From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 1:29 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer Sorry son, but us humans have beaten you to the name human way back. Doesn't matter that your the same, but you can't be a human. How about neo-human? Its just as good. We're programmers as much as someone 10 years ago are programmers. Hey, many of us were programmers back then as well. Its a false distinction that has a definition only within the minds of those who want to make the distinction. Yes, We program. But in the grand scheme of things, for demographic purposes we are considered developers, not just MM but to the computer world. Programmers beat us to the programming way back when computers were invented. They got first rights to use that name in generic terms. We don't do what they do. We program web pages/applications, but are considered 'developers'. I'm glad you feel so strongly about it, but I think it doesn't really matter and you definitely shouldn't be losing any sleep over it. That's just me. t ** Tyler M. Fitch Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer http://isitedesign.com ** -Original Message- From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 10:52 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: programmer vs. developer In MMs mind, a programmer is one who uses a compiled language like Java or C++. A developer is someone who uses a scripting language like CF. This is a totally artificial distinction and one I reject on every level. I program. So do you. We're programmers. whats the difference? __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
