Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Nick! Thanks for sharing your status and good news (well, relatively?). I'm glad Dean had the forwardness to ask the "obvious question". Keep up the recovery! - Steve On 7/27/17 11:01 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: Thanks for your concern, Dean. Don’t have a heart attack in Maine in the

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Thanks for your concern, Dean. Don’t have a heart attack in Maine in the summer, if you can avoid it. Apparently, Maine beds are full of vacationing stock-brokers from NYC Took a week from the day of the attack, lying about in hospital beds, to find a surgical bed at the I begged to be

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Nick-- Are you OK?  Many of us are concerned about each other over the effects of age, and we are concerned about you.  What does "laid up" mean?  Feel free to keep that private if you wish.  But, we are concerned. Best wishes, Dean On Wednesday, July 26, 2017, 11:17:04 PM CDT, Nick Thompson

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

I loved it. metaphors or no. I am laid up, right now, and so won’t have much to say for a bit. Keep up the good work, you guys. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Thanks, Steve. The metaphor allusion was a not very humorous way to make the pointer to my little book allegedly relevant. As Nick pointed out, the title itself is a metaphor. The dictionary definition of "legacy" mentions money or other posessions which are left in a bequest. There are some

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

With all due respect -- I have looked through these missives and this prose in vain for any deep examination of metaphor. For background: the natural systems working group of INCOSE is studying metaphor as a fundamental skill for designers and engineers interested in transferring biological

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

I just ordered my copy yesterday. It IS conceivable that you avoided all use of literary metaphor. In this very sentence I used at least 2 conceptual metaphors. Nick might only acknowledge literary metaphors? Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 23, 2017, at 9:42 PM, "Frank Wimberly"

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

There have been no entries in the competition to find a metaphor in this book: https://www.amazon.com/New-Mexico-Legacy-Frank-Wimberly/dp/1548003360 By the way, the title doesn't count. Frank Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz Santa Fe, NM 87505 wimber...@gmail.com

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Glen, I have never heard of SAGE or OCTAVE other than as a plant and a musical term. herpetophobia=Ophidiophobia ? I hope that was your intention... Maple was used by Mathematica? for the core of its symbolic computations But being pro-Canadian never switched over. We used to get Maple to

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Regarding the toolchain: I can't help but wonder how difficult it would be to switch from Maple to Sage? If it's anything like how it used to be to use Matlab code in Octave, then it's non-trivial. But if it *were* relatively straightforward, then it might be easier to "distribute"

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Glen, I already use AutoHotKey Script to run Code in Maple Math and Dump .txt vertex data embedded in Processing 3 code (some Java offshoot) The autoHotKey assembles the hundreds of images and 3D objects into ordered sets and then runs MovieMaker to produce video .wmv, which you have seen

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

If the forum expresses irritation, then we can take it offline. Otherwise, I will treat them like I like to be treated ... voyeurism can be a good thing. 8^) Rather than (or in addition to) using pseudo-random number generators, do something like: 1) https://api.random.org/guidelines, 2) use

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Glen, I re-read your response and can only find a single paltry non- issue, 3D printing may only capture a single frame or object, of little use. The rest of the body of the reply seems to agree with my own ideas in more elegant terms. I intentionally left openings in the code that should

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

These are nice videos. Your requirement that we respond with video is difficult for me because I don't normally produce video... I could provide, say, an "in silico liver visualization". But the extra content would obscure any message, I think. But this video by other people is relevant to

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

To Nick Thompson, I may have made an error when trying to reply with my Outlook email software not so unusual in this heat and with my condition. I apologize for confusion. I have been wrestling with your questions. Honestly. I asked myself essentially the same some time ago so I seem

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Gentlemen, This thread seems to have stalled out and just at a time when I have started to make some progress toward answering Nick Thompson’s carefully crafted petition aimed at the Oracles of Delphi. I have been on the look-out for anything that may prove helpful. What I now have may

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

1. I am not sure, it seems often very different 2. Multiple Networks that are connected 3. I am feeling cagey, in my case definitely. I think that even with broken large assemblies that have connections a pattern is visible but perhaps as Glen implied mis-registered.

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

To all the wandering lost colleagues in the congregation, thank you all, So after Tom and Dean’s contributions someone has to assemble a team to put this together in text and images/ I only realized today that my stupid Flowers were connected to all this struggle. I did suspect

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

If we agree to use Metaphor as a Fractured, Leaking Container for an Ur-Holy Idea, The Complex, that is not even in the neighborhood of stalling. Fumbling in the dark, OK, but not Stalling. Note I used Ur and not un, implying that this idea is very ancient. Not only is this Group having a

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Just how many of these Glens are out there... I guess they just keep sprouting up like dandelions. The use of any Word requires a little cooperation from a group. If I were a solipsist why would I ever need the fiction that you understood my grunts. Why does each Glen seem to stand in different

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Nick sez: We have a word for tingo, don’t we? Its “to ”borrow””. In my experience 'to "borrow" ', in our culture usually means to "take without permission" or more bluntly "to steal". That extends to "borrowing without returning" and anecdotally we are familiar with those who seem to do

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Marcus- I was thinking of the ER=EPR example. My intuition is that after we elaborate enough examples like this, as well as Feynman's observation that since all (heretofore observed) electrons appear identical, perhaps they are a *single* electron which is everywhere/everywhen, we might

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Glen - Works for me, I was thinking "crypto athiest"... Naa. I don't qualify as any sort of atheist. I have gods, they're just unique gods. Understood... "crypto-animist" perhaps? I didn't think much of the term (animist) until I encountered it in Abram's "Spell of the Sensuous" which

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

"John Zingale referenced something in last Monday's Salon about how idioms frm early string theory investigations was almost deprecated when it found new utility in quantum loop gravity?" I was thinking of the ER=EPR example. Seems like basic questions of interpretation just get kicked down

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Marcus - The _/From Other Tongues/_ sketch is good. Both what is heard and what is said could be modeled as a closure over some subjective representation. ... The squiggles suggest that the types are not yet shared amongst the agents. I agree with this, but the theme of the "From

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

On 06/23/2017 12:08 PM, Steven A Smith wrote: > Works for me, I was thinking "crypto athiest"... Naa. I don't qualify as any sort of atheist. I have gods, they're just unique gods. > Interesting that you didn't believe "a word uttered in Mass" while I, as a > young adult came to believe (or

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

OK. I mostly agree. But at some point, there might be an unresolveable ambiguity in the kernel, at which point I would be forced to allow pluralism. That's why I allow pluaralism from the start... to avoid having to change my mind later. 8^) I think it's easier to go from many to one than

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Glen writes: "How about, instead of interpretations, we think of applications, e.g. commonalities between domain-specific languages?" I'd make a distinction between embedded DSLs (built on general-purpose programming languages) and DSLs which are not. I don't want to get stuck thinking

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

On 06/23/2017 12:07 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Many "interpretations" just put off getting to the bottom of things. Keep > the interpretations around long enough to get parallax on a better > interpretation, then press Delete. How about, instead of interpretations, we think of applications,

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Glen - What would you call people like me, who were reared Catholic, including confirmation and duties as an "altar boy", but who never believed a single word uttered in Mass, by parents, or in the official books? In fact, the only concepts I took, believed in, from Catholicism are 1)

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Steve writes: "To the extent that the only and precise goal is to efficiently, unambiguously, and accurately serialize the contents of one's mind and transmit it to another mind which de-serializes with the goal of syncronizing the internal states of Bob's mind to that of Alice's, perhaps what

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

What would you call people like me, who were reared Catholic, including confirmation and duties as an "altar boy", but who never believed a single word uttered in Mass, by parents, or in the official books? In fact, the only concepts I took, believed in, from Catholicism are 1) catholicism

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Stephen - For catholics, a confirmed unmarried man might be different than a confirmed bachelor . being an unmarried man but not a Catholic, Confirmed or otherwise, I am not a bachelor, though my current lifestyle mimics many of the qualities of the canonical (but not Canonized) confirmed

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Marcus - This is about the time when I expect Dave West to jump in with his rant about how broken the metaphor of "mind as computer" (or perhaps venn diagram) is. Though he may not be cross-subscribed here. Ignoring those arguments for a moment and giving over to the metaphor, let me

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

For catholics, a confirmed unmarried man might be different than a confirmed bachelor . ___ stephen.gue...@simtable.com CEO, Simtable http://www.simtable.com 1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

< Your comparison of "closure" to Nick's idea of "surplus" (intentional or not) meaning. I accept that in programming a computer, "closure" is a useful tool, to avoid unintended "side effects".> If one thinks of the mind of two people as two circles in a Venn diagram and the intersection as

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Glen said a lot, That sort of pestered my thoughts. I thought some rebuttal was call for at the time he crossed into my personal fiefdom. But I was preoccupied and let it slip. >From my peculiar POV the circular component so often discussed seems to suit >certain minds as a useful

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Glen - Thanks for the thoughtful analysis and return to(ward) the point at hand. Your comparison of "closure" to Nick's idea of "surplus" (intentional or not) meaning. I accept that in programming a computer, "closure" is a useful tool, to avoid unintended "side effects". In natural

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

< I'm going to skip ahead a bit and state that my entire line of rhetoric about circularity goes back to the complexity jargon discussion we were having and whether or not, as Nick put it, a system has a say in its own boundary. It's all about _closure_. This particular tangent targets

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Ha! I struggled to come up with "single" as an alternative name and you had 4 waiting in the wings. I'm going to skip ahead a bit and state that my entire line of rhetoric about circularity goes back to the complexity jargon discussion we were having and whether or not, as Nick put it, a

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Has anybody mentioned that there are lot of unmarried men that you usually wouldn't call bachelors? There are widowers, priests, and nineteen year-olds, for example. I learned the word because my father's brother was a thirty-five year old Major in the Air Force with no wife. He eventually got

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

But the difference isn't merely rhetorical. If we take the setup seriously, that the unmarried patient really doesn't know the other names by which his condition is known, then there are all sorts of different side effects that might obtain. E.g. if the doctor tells him he's a bachelor, he

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Glen said: "So, the loop of unmarried <=> bachelor has information in it, even if the only information is (as in your example), the guy learns that because the condition has another name, perhaps there are other ways of thinking about it ... other _circles_ to use." This reminds me that, in

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Given your extraordinary spam handling methods, I thought I'd notify you here, Nick, that I sent the rest of my notes on the rest of your introduction off-list. For what it's worth, I think you've got a GREAT gist if you could find a way to free yourself from the obsession with circularity

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

On June 20, 2017 8:16:57 PM PDT, Nick Thompson wrote: > >I dunno. I never quite know what Glen is on about. But I tended to >read his response in terms of his cancer. He is saying, “I am >comforted by knowing that I am not the only man with cancer.” If I >were

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

On June 20, 2017 6:14:49 PM PDT, Nick Thompson wrote: > >[NST==>I assume you would agree that “unmarried because unmarried” is >perniciously circular. Right? Just checking. <==nst] Vapid, yes. Shallow, yes. Perhaps even vicious. But it's a little too empty,

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

p.s. Did you see the article on the possibility that the Universe is conscious? Pretty distinguished supporters. Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-9918 On Jun 20, 2017 9:21 PM, "Frank Wimberly" wrote: > No one notified me about a time/place. Maybe they knew I wouldn't

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

No one notified me about a time/place. Maybe they knew I wouldn't yield on the ineffability of consciousness. Maybe knowing everyone dies strengthens the oceanic feeling. Frank Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-9918 On Jun 20, 2017 9:17 PM, "Nick Thompson" wrote: >

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Frank, The Metaphor group. I thought you were going to go along? To you point about uniqueness. It’s odd. Misery does love company, I suppose. But, I mean, really? The only reason not to be bummed by not being unique, is if the banality of one’s pain suggests a solution. But that

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Part of the pain comes from feeling unique in one's defect. What happened Monday? Frank Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-9918 On Jun 20, 2017 8:01 PM, "Nick Thompson" wrote: > Frank, > > > > > > I think Glen would reply that minor has all sorts of association that

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Frank, I think Glen would reply that minor has all sorts of association that provide some predictability. I can’t fight every battle in every email Yes. And immediately I have felt really stupid for feeling that. How on earth could another’s pain meliorate mine! What was

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Nick, [NST==>I suppose that one could argue that any time one writes a sentence of the form, A is a B, one has launched into metaphor. <==nst] What about, “every planet in the Solar System that is closer to the Sun than Jupiter is a minor planet.” Why didn’t you challenge Glen’s use

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Thanks, Glen, Kind of you to respond. I will do a bit of larding below. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -Original Message- From: Friam

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Just in case it needs to be stated, explicitly, I'm also interested in your deliberations. At a minimum, it would be very cool to see a reading list, things your collective feel are important to being able to hold a conversation in the domain. On 06/18/2017 09:46 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: >

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Y'all say: In http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20170619/f46244d3/attachment-0001.pdf: > > > If our analysis is correct, then the distinction between explanation and > description takes > on an entirely new importance in science. > ... > The young man thinks, "This

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Nick, I will try to take notes and post them. I have sent you three emails (one was a resend of the first and the second was a note to check your spam filter for the other two). Re your group selection metaphor paper. davew On Sun, Jun 18, 2017, at 10:46 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > Dear