RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
I've just spent all weekend scouring the web for controls that allow you to work with documents (ie: ones that allow you to annotate and then redact documents). Most of these controls are Java-based today. I'd love to see third parties start to step up in that space for sure :) I guess that there's a lot of distance for Silverlight to catch up in the web controls market for sure! Regards, Darren Neimke Readify | Head of Innovation ASP.NET MVP, MCAD Suite 206 Nolan Tower | 29 Rakaia Way | Docklands | VIC 3008 | Australia M: +61 439 855 046 | E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Blog: http://neimke.spaces.live.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Stovell Sent: Monday, 20 October 2008 9:08 PM To: listserver@ozsilverlight.com Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? An area of the Silverlight ecosystem that I think will be interesting to see is the third-party offerings. It will be interesting watching how many third party controls arrive for Silverlight, as well as what types of controls they are, and how the market reacts to them. I know that in the WPF space, we'd see a lot less WPF LOB applications if it weren't for the likes of Infragistics, Xceed, ActiPro and Syncfusion. As much as there are many concepts that carry between WPF and SL, many of the implementation details that control vendors rely on don't seem to cross over so easily, which makes it harder for third parties to build on top. Examples off the top of my head: custom markup extensions, template binding for attached (read: third party extension) properties and the lack of a logical tree (a lot harder to use binding with non-visual elements). Certainly there are vendors building on Silverlight, but their offerings seem tamer than their WPF counterparts, and I suspect that's a limitation imposed by some of the missing areas of extensibility above. But then again, will third party controls even be relevant for Silverlight applications? Is there a thriving market for third party Flash controls? On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 10:15 AM, Jordan Knight [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just on the success of SL in the RIA space... The hard sell is going to be to the designers... they are in many ways married to Adobe PS, but this doesn't they have to stay married to Flash/Flex. They key is, they don't have to stop using PS to do their designs - showing them how easy it is to go from PS / IL to Expression Design/Blend is the goal. Also, showing designers just how many great C# developers are out there to take away their ActionScript/Flex pain so they can concentrate on designs and not program implementation will help attract more designers. I'd put money on there being more C# developers out there than Action Script developers - and that on average the C# developer has more experience (i.e. they are *better* :)). We are starting a new user group called the Silverlight Designer and Developer Network in Melbourne (first meeting Nov 27th - a formal announcement coming soon) especially to help bridge this gap... My observation is that traditionally designers don't have a lot of SIG/community stuff they attend regularly - hopefully the SDDN can buck that trend. Each meeting will have content for designers and content for developers - including lots of content on bridging the gap between the two camps. Bringing designers and developers together regularly creating dialog is the first step to making Silverlight a great success. All sessions recorded and available for free on the site after the meet! As I said there will be a formal announcement very soon so stay posted. Jordan. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Jordan Knight Sent: Friday, 17 October 2008 9:53 AM To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com Subject: RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Lucky Silverlight has so many great tools to crank out XAML for you :) At the end of the day is there really any more work in style creation than with something like CSS? At the end of the day you aren't being forced to trawl though pages of XAML if you don't so desire :) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Muhammad Niaz Sent: Friday, 17 October 2008 12:13 AM To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com Subject: RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Hi Stephen, I agree with your comments related to .NET expertise. But even though I do't know about Flex but I want to say that lot of XAML markup is generated when we are building out styles in App.xaml, and even Designing is also tough for developer point of view :( Thanks Regards, Muhammad Niaz Software Engineer Intagleo Systems Pvt Ltd. +92 321 569 4195 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Stephen Price Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008
RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
Do you know of any good third party controls? Miguel A. Madero Reyes http://www.miguelmadero.com/ www.miguelmadero.com (blog) mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] (871)730-8319 (871)763-0020 Peten #509 Fracc Florida Blanca, 27260 Torreón, Coahuila P Please reconsider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail The information in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Stovell Sent: Monday, 20 October 2008 9:38 PM To: listserver@ozsilverlight.com Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? An area of the Silverlight ecosystem that I think will be interesting to see is the third-party offerings. It will be interesting watching how many third party controls arrive for Silverlight, as well as what types of controls they are, and how the market reacts to them. I know that in the WPF space, we'd see a lot less WPF LOB applications if it weren't for the likes of Infragistics, Xceed, ActiPro and Syncfusion. As much as there are many concepts that carry between WPF and SL, many of the implementation details that control vendors rely on don't seem to cross over so easily, which makes it harder for third parties to build on top. Examples off the top of my head: custom markup extensions, template binding for attached (read: third party extension) properties and the lack of a logical tree (a lot harder to use binding with non-visual elements). Certainly there are vendors building on Silverlight, but their offerings seem tamer than their WPF counterparts, and I suspect that's a limitation imposed by some of the missing areas of extensibility above. But then again, will third party controls even be relevant for Silverlight applications? Is there a thriving market for third party Flash controls? On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 10:15 AM, Jordan Knight [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just on the success of SL in the RIA space... The hard sell is going to be to the designers... they are in many ways married to Adobe PS, but this doesn't they have to stay married to Flash/Flex. They key is, they don't have to stop using PS to do their designs - showing them how easy it is to go from PS / IL to Expression Design/Blend is the goal. Also, showing designers just how many great C# developers are out there to take away their ActionScript/Flex pain so they can concentrate on designs and not program implementation will help attract more designers. I'd put money on there being more C# developers out there than Action Script developers - and that on average the C# developer has more experience (i.e. they are *better* :)). We are starting a new user group called the Silverlight Designer and Developer Network in Melbourne (first meeting Nov 27th - a formal announcement coming soon) especially to help bridge this gap... My observation is that traditionally designers don't have a lot of SIG/community stuff they attend regularly - hopefully the SDDN can buck that trend. Each meeting will have content for designers and content for developers - including lots of content on bridging the gap between the two camps. Bringing designers and developers together regularly creating dialog is the first step to making Silverlight a great success. All sessions recorded and available for free on the site after the meet! As I said there will be a formal announcement very soon so stay posted. Jordan. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jordan Knight Sent: Friday, 17 October 2008 9:53 AM To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com Subject: RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Lucky Silverlight has so many great tools to crank out XAML for you :) At the end of the day is there really any more work in style creation than with something like CSS? At the end of the day you aren't being forced to trawl though pages of XAML if you don't so desire :) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Muhammad Niaz Sent: Friday, 17 October 2008 12:13 AM To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com Subject: RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Hi Stephen, I agree with your comments related to .NET expertise. But even though I do't know about Flex but I want to say that lot of XAML markup is generated when we are building out styles in App.xaml, and even Designing is also tough for developer point of view L Thanks Regards, Muhammad Niaz Software Engineer Intagleo Systems Pvt Ltd. +92 321 569 4195 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen Price Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 10:01 AM To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure
Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
I haven't used any (WPF all the way baby!) yet, but Infragistics are working on some (still in planning). Telerik have also been advertising their range pretty heavily. And let's not forget the beautiful charts from Visifire: - http://www.infragistics.com/dotnet/netadvantage/silverlight.aspx - http://www.telerik.com/products/silverlight/overview.aspx - http://visifire.com/ What I can't wait to see is what kinds of controls people will want. Many of the third-party controls I have seen announced so far have been the same old: ribbons, datagrids (oh please!), and assorted input controls. In future I suspect other kinds of controls will get higher demand: transitional frameworks, navigational frameworks, wizard frameworks, HTML interop frameworks, data visualization controls[1] and so on. The kind of ingredients used in immersive brochure/catalog websites, rather than DataGrid-driven LOB applications. Components you could use to build a site like this[2] in a few dozen lines of XAML :) There may even be a market for animation/physics engines much like there are games engines in the gaming industry. What third party components are people on here using? [1] - I love this site as a catalog of data visualizations: http://interface.fh-potsdam.de/infodesignpatterns/patterns.php [2] - http://www.madeinmtl.com/main.php?langval=2 On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 1:27 AM, Miguel Madero [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you know of any good third party controls? Miguel A. Madero Reyes www.miguelmadero.com (blog) [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] (871)730-8319 (871)763-0020 Peten #509 Fracc Florida Blanca, 27260 Torreón, Coahuila P* **Please reconsider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail* The information in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Paul Stovell *Sent:* Monday, 20 October 2008 9:38 PM *To:* listserver@ozsilverlight.com *Subject:* Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? An area of the Silverlight ecosystem that I think will be interesting to see is the third-party offerings. It will be interesting watching how many third party controls arrive for Silverlight, as well as what types of controls they are, and how the market reacts to them. I know that in the WPF space, we'd see a lot less WPF LOB applications if it weren't for the likes of Infragistics, Xceed, ActiPro and Syncfusion. As much as there are many concepts that carry between WPF and SL, many of the implementation details that control vendors rely on don't seem to cross over so easily, which makes it harder for third parties to build on top. Examples off the top of my head: custom markup extensions, template binding for attached (read: third party extension) properties and the lack of a logical tree (a lot harder to use binding with non-visual elements). Certainly there are vendors building on Silverlight, but their offerings seem tamer than their WPF counterparts, and I suspect that's a limitation imposed by some of the missing areas of extensibility above. But then again, will third party controls even be relevant for Silverlight applications? Is there a thriving market for third party Flash controls? On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 10:15 AM, Jordan Knight [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just on the success of SL in the RIA space... The hard sell is going to be to the designers... they are in many ways married to Adobe PS, but this doesn't they have to stay married to Flash/Flex. They key is, they don't have to stop using PS to do their designs - showing them how easy it is to go from PS / IL to Expression Design/Blend is the goal. Also, showing designers just how many great C# developers are out there to take away their ActionScript/Flex pain so they can concentrate on designs and not program implementation will help attract more designers. I'd put money on there being more C# developers out there than Action Script developers - and that on average the C# developer has more experience (i.e. they are **better** :)). We are starting a new user group called the Silverlight Designer and Developer Network in Melbourne (first meeting Nov 27th - a formal announcement coming soon) especially to help bridge this gap... My observation is that traditionally designers don't have a lot of SIG/community stuff they attend regularly - hopefully the SDDN can buck that trend. Each meeting will have content for designers and content for developers - including lots of content on bridging the gap between the two camps. Bringing designers and developers together regularly creating dialog is the first step to making Silverlight a great success
Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
You want me to give you a run sheet of our entire game plan so you can run it off to your buddies at Adobe, think again bazza :) think again! :) Sorry, nice try but no cigar. no, Scott, it's not that. I actually don't cut much code anymore these days: analysis, design, recommendations, etc. I'm trying to get a deeper understanding on SL's place in the world now/soon and I'm not going to recommend spending resources on cutting edge (if not bleeding edge) if it's not yet worth it to solve real business problems. I don't work in a design agency, I don't work with general-public-facing web. I mean, because I know Flex, I can see more than one option so I'm looking at ROI, product differentiation, what works for where and why, alternatives**, etc. E.g: SL's use of C#, while important for teams, can be negated in other ways: what Peter DeHaan at Adobe is up, etc. As for getting SL infront of eyeballs, I've already given you one suggestion - but I do admit cross-department logistics make it a long shot, which is a shame. so I *am* pumping you for information, Scott, but not for the reasons you think. But you did do a good job shedding a bit more light a couple of emails back, and for that many thanks. barry.b out. ** I've come across more than one example where a DHTML/Ajax-y app would work better than what's been served up with Flex. Perhaps both Flex and SL share a competitor there? --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net
Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
Hi, First on the AJAX/JavaScript comment: I completely agree. This is something I mentioned in the Future of the web discussion panel at Tech Ed in Sydney. I think that in the end JavaScript might be a stronger competitor to Silverlight than Flash. JavaScript is getting significant faster in Chrome, FireFox and Safari (and Microsoft is playing catch-up in IE8). New frameworks like jQuery (now embraced by Microsoft) is making it easier to build rich JavaScript based applications, and the tooling support is also getting more solid. By using plain AJAX/JavaScript you don't have to depend on any add-in or vendor lock-in. In the future Canvas and Video, when ever implemented in all browsers, might make AJAX/JavaScript an even more compelling alternative to Flash and Silverlight. That being said I am big Silverlight 2 fan, and definitely think the technology is ready for main-stream development work. I think Silverlight 2 will be an easier alternative for businesses wanting to build Rich Internet Applications. The reason: tools they know (VS2008), same language on client/server, and consistent API/documentation/tooling (compared to the web where you have to know multiple technologies to do it well). I also think that the requirements and expectations within (internal) line of business applications will go up as the users get used to great online user experiences on the public web. These users will expect something more inside the company, and I think that in the future having great internal software might be a differentiator for companies wanting to recruit information workers. As to the Flex vs Silverlight 2 decision I don't know enough about Flex to really comment on it. However, I think that most of us have seen great examples of Flash-based RIAs, so the technology is more than capable of delivering great applications. One of my current favorites is http://www.sliderocket.com/. So if you and your team knows Flex, and the company sees that as a important technology in the future, by all means use it! That makes perfect business sense. What I'm saying is that Silverlight 2 feels a need for the .NET/Microsoft development crowd who is comfortable in VS2008 and C#, and now need to meet higher expectations to deliver great user experiences online. - Jonas On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 9:08 AM, Barry Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: You want me to give you a run sheet of our entire game plan so you can run it off to your buddies at Adobe, think again bazza :) think again! :) Sorry, nice try but no cigar. no, Scott, it's not that. I actually don't cut much code anymore these days: analysis, design, recommendations, etc. I'm trying to get a deeper understanding on SL's place in the world now/soon and I'm not going to recommend spending resources on cutting edge (if not bleeding edge) if it's not yet worth it to solve real business problems. I don't work in a design agency, I don't work with general-public-facing web. I mean, because I know Flex, I can see more than one option so I'm looking at ROI, product differentiation, what works for where and why, alternatives**, etc. E.g: SL's use of C#, while important for teams, can be negated in other ways: what Peter DeHaan at Adobe is up, etc. As for getting SL infront of eyeballs, I've already given you one suggestion - but I do admit cross-department logistics make it a long shot, which is a shame. so I *am* pumping you for information, Scott, but not for the reasons you think. But you did do a good job shedding a bit more light a couple of emails back, and for that many thanks. barry.b out. ** I've come across more than one example where a DHTML/Ajax-y app would work better than what's been served up with Flex. Perhaps both Flex and SL share a competitor there? --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net
RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
The reason: tools they know (VS2008), same language on client/server, and consistent API/documentation/tooling (compared to the web where you have to know multiple technologies to do it well). +1 - but don't forget designers here... there aren't really any good tools to bridge the gap from design to JS. This is why I think that even though JS is getting faster and faster with engines like TraceMonkey and V8 I just can't see it passing the usability/creatability (sic) test that designers require... i.e. they will continue to be scared of it. SL and Flash are far more friendly environments for our designing comrades. Add in a compiler, testability and familiarity for developers and the environment is nicer all round. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonas Follesø Sent: Monday, 20 October 2008 9:27 AM To: listserver@ozsilverlight.com Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Hi, First on the AJAX/JavaScript comment: I completely agree. This is something I mentioned in the Future of the web discussion panel at Tech Ed in Sydney. I think that in the end JavaScript might be a stronger competitor to Silverlight than Flash. JavaScript is getting significant faster in Chrome, FireFox and Safari (and Microsoft is playing catch-up in IE8). New frameworks like jQuery (now embraced by Microsoft) is making it easier to build rich JavaScript based applications, and the tooling support is also getting more solid. By using plain AJAX/JavaScript you don't have to depend on any add-in or vendor lock-in. In the future Canvas and Video, when ever implemented in all browsers, might make AJAX/JavaScript an even more compelling alternative to Flash and Silverlight. That being said I am big Silverlight 2 fan, and definitely think the technology is ready for main-stream development work. I think Silverlight 2 will be an easier alternative for businesses wanting to build Rich Internet Applications. The reason: tools they know (VS2008), same language on client/server, and consistent API/documentation/tooling (compared to the web where you have to know multiple technologies to do it well). I also think that the requirements and expectations within (internal) line of business applications will go up as the users get used to great online user experiences on the public web. These users will expect something more inside the company, and I think that in the future having great internal software might be a differentiator for companies wanting to recruit information workers. As to the Flex vs Silverlight 2 decision I don't know enough about Flex to really comment on it. However, I think that most of us have seen great examples of Flash-based RIAs, so the technology is more than capable of delivering great applications. One of my current favorites is http://www.sliderocket.com/. So if you and your team knows Flex, and the company sees that as a important technology in the future, by all means use it! That makes perfect business sense. What I'm saying is that Silverlight 2 feels a need for the .NET/Microsoft development crowd who is comfortable in VS2008 and C#, and now need to meet higher expectations to deliver great user experiences online. - Jonas On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 9:08 AM, Barry Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You want me to give you a run sheet of our entire game plan so you can run it off to your buddies at Adobe, think again bazza :) think again! :) Sorry, nice try but no cigar. no, Scott, it's not that. I actually don't cut much code anymore these days: analysis, design, recommendations, etc. I'm trying to get a deeper understanding on SL's place in the world now/soon and I'm not going to recommend spending resources on cutting edge (if not bleeding edge) if it's not yet worth it to solve real business problems. I don't work in a design agency, I don't work with general-public-facing web. I mean, because I know Flex, I can see more than one option so I'm looking at ROI, product differentiation, what works for where and why, alternatives**, etc. E.g: SL's use of C#, while important for teams, can be negated in other ways: what Peter DeHaan at Adobe is up, etc. As for getting SL infront of eyeballs, I've already given you one suggestion - but I do admit cross-department logistics make it a long shot, which is a shame. so I *am* pumping you for information, Scott, but not for the reasons you think. But you did do a good job shedding a bit more light a couple of emails back, and for that many thanks. barry.b out. ** I've come across more than one example where a DHTML/Ajax-y app would work better than what's been served up with Flex. Perhaps both Flex and SL share a competitor there? --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.comhttp
Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
Current leaders: Troll / fisherman of the year : Muhammed Niaz Flamer / Flamee of the year : cough cough On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Jonas Follesø [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, First on the AJAX/JavaScript comment: I completely agree. This is something I mentioned in the Future of the web discussion panel at Tech Ed in Sydney. I think that in the end JavaScript might be a stronger competitor to Silverlight than Flash. JavaScript is getting significant faster in Chrome, FireFox and Safari (and Microsoft is playing catch-up in IE8). New frameworks like jQuery (now embraced by Microsoft) is making it easier to build rich JavaScript based applications, and the tooling support is also getting more solid. By using plain AJAX/JavaScript you don't have to depend on any add-in or vendor lock-in. In the future Canvas and Video, when ever implemented in all browsers, might make AJAX/JavaScript an even more compelling alternative to Flash and Silverlight. That being said I am big Silverlight 2 fan, and definitely think the technology is ready for main-stream development work. I think Silverlight 2 will be an easier alternative for businesses wanting to build Rich Internet Applications. The reason: tools they know (VS2008), same language on client/server, and consistent API/documentation/tooling (compared to the web where you have to know multiple technologies to do it well). I also think that the requirements and expectations within (internal) line of business applications will go up as the users get used to great online user experiences on the public web. These users will expect something more inside the company, and I think that in the future having great internal software might be a differentiator for companies wanting to recruit information workers. As to the Flex vs Silverlight 2 decision I don't know enough about Flex to really comment on it. However, I think that most of us have seen great examples of Flash-based RIAs, so the technology is more than capable of delivering great applications. One of my current favorites is http://www.sliderocket.com/. So if you and your team knows Flex, and the company sees that as a important technology in the future, by all means use it! That makes perfect business sense. What I'm saying is that Silverlight 2 feels a need for the .NET/Microsoft development crowd who is comfortable in VS2008 and C#, and now need to meet higher expectations to deliver great user experiences online. - Jonas On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 9:08 AM, Barry Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You want me to give you a run sheet of our entire game plan so you can run it off to your buddies at Adobe, think again bazza :) think again! :) Sorry, nice try but no cigar. no, Scott, it's not that. I actually don't cut much code anymore these days: analysis, design, recommendations, etc. I'm trying to get a deeper understanding on SL's place in the world now/soon and I'm not going to recommend spending resources on cutting edge (if not bleeding edge) if it's not yet worth it to solve real business problems. I don't work in a design agency, I don't work with general-public-facing web. I mean, because I know Flex, I can see more than one option so I'm looking at ROI, product differentiation, what works for where and why, alternatives**, etc. E.g: SL's use of C#, while important for teams, can be negated in other ways: what Peter DeHaan at Adobe is up, etc. As for getting SL infront of eyeballs, I've already given you one suggestion - but I do admit cross-department logistics make it a long shot, which is a shame. so I *am* pumping you for information, Scott, but not for the reasons you think. But you did do a good job shedding a bit more light a couple of emails back, and for that many thanks. barry.b out. ** I've come across more than one example where a DHTML/Ajax-y app would work better than what's been served up with Flex. Perhaps both Flex and SL share a competitor there? --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net
Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
True, but there is heaps of web designers out there who knows CSS and HTML. So the designer friendliness might tip both ways when comparing traditional web applications and Silverlight (at least at the moment). You can also buy tons of HTML templates and designs online you can include in your application, something currently not as available for WPF/Silverlight. For the interactive part you're right, there isn't any good JavaScript tools at the moment to help designers. However, there are jQuery books and tutorials focusing on the interactive styling and animation aspects of jQuery (rather than the AJAX data stuff). CSS selectors is a key concepts in jQuery, and something widely used and understood by web designers, making jQuery a really approachable JavaScript library even for designers. But yes - as designers starts to pick up on Blend, and we as developers understand how to architect our applications to make them designer-friendly, we can see some great developer-designer workflows. On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 9:35 AM, Jordan Knight [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: The reason: tools they know (VS2008), same language on client/server, and consistent API/documentation/tooling (compared to the web where you have to know multiple technologies to do it well). +1 - but don't forget designers here... there aren't really any good tools to bridge the gap from design to JS. This is why I think that even though JS is getting faster and faster with engines like TraceMonkey and V8 I just can't see it passing the usability/creatability (sic) test that designers require... i.e. they will continue to be scared of it. SL and Flash are far more friendly environments for our designing comrades. Add in a compiler, testability and familiarity for developers and the environment is nicer all round. *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Jonas Follesø *Sent:* Monday, 20 October 2008 9:27 AM *To:* listserver@ozsilverlight.com *Subject:* Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Hi, First on the AJAX/JavaScript comment: I completely agree. This is something I mentioned in the Future of the web discussion panel at Tech Ed in Sydney. I think that in the end JavaScript might be a stronger competitor to Silverlight than Flash. JavaScript is getting significant faster in Chrome, FireFox and Safari (and Microsoft is playing catch-up in IE8). New frameworks like jQuery (now embraced by Microsoft) is making it easier to build rich JavaScript based applications, and the tooling support is also getting more solid. By using plain AJAX/JavaScript you don't have to depend on any add-in or vendor lock-in. In the future Canvas and Video, when ever implemented in all browsers, might make AJAX/JavaScript an even more compelling alternative to Flash and Silverlight. That being said I am big Silverlight 2 fan, and definitely think the technology is ready for main-stream development work. I think Silverlight 2 will be an easier alternative for businesses wanting to build Rich Internet Applications. The reason: tools they know (VS2008), same language on client/server, and consistent API/documentation/tooling (compared to the web where you have to know multiple technologies to do it well). I also think that the requirements and expectations within (internal) line of business applications will go up as the users get used to great online user experiences on the public web. These users will expect something more inside the company, and I think that in the future having great internal software might be a differentiator for companies wanting to recruit information workers. As to the Flex vs Silverlight 2 decision I don't know enough about Flex to really comment on it. However, I think that most of us have seen great examples of Flash-based RIAs, so the technology is more than capable of delivering great applications. One of my current favorites is http://www.sliderocket.com/. So if you and your team knows Flex, and the company sees that as a important technology in the future, by all means use it! That makes perfect business sense. What I'm saying is that Silverlight 2 feels a need for the .NET/Microsoft development crowd who is comfortable in VS2008 and C#, and now need to meet higher expectations to deliver great user experiences online. - Jonas On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 9:08 AM, Barry Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You want me to give you a run sheet of our entire game plan so you can run it off to your buddies at Adobe, think again bazza :) think again! :) Sorry, nice try but no cigar. no, Scott, it's not that. I actually don't cut much code anymore these days: analysis, design, recommendations, etc. I'm trying to get a deeper understanding on SL's place in the world now/soon and I'm not going to recommend spending resources on cutting edge (if not bleeding edge) if it's not yet worth it to solve real business problems. I
RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
Agree... There is plenty of content/reference and *some* good tools out there... and there are defininately tons of templates etc... But... Those templates are for pretty sites.. not AJAX enabled apps :) I.e. not an RIA - basically you don't get RIA from JS unless you are a developer of some kind (or perhaps you could end up with a crappy RIA hehe) - either way Silverlight (and Flash/Flex) bridges this gap quite nicely. The creation process in SL is nicely workflowed through the expression suite. JS/AJAX lacks that glue (keep in mind I am an AJAX developer from way back). And a desiger that knows some jQuery and CSS... you could argue they are more a devigner. You can see the interest building from the design camp from the sessions at ReMix and TechEd... didn't see that many designers when they launched ASP.NET AJAX :) Cheers, Jordan. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonas Follesø [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 20 October 2008 12:43 PM To: listserver@ozsilverlight.com Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? True, but there is heaps of web designers out there who knows CSS and HTML. So the designer friendliness might tip both ways when comparing traditional web applications and Silverlight (at least at the moment). You can also buy tons of HTML templates and designs online you can include in your application, something currently not as available for WPF/Silverlight. For the interactive part you're right, there isn't any good JavaScript tools at the moment to help designers. However, there are jQuery books and tutorials focusing on the interactive styling and animation aspects of jQuery (rather than the AJAX data stuff). CSS selectors is a key concepts in jQuery, and something widely used and understood by web designers, making jQuery a really approachable JavaScript library even for designers. But yes - as designers starts to pick up on Blend, and we as developers understand how to architect our applications to make them designer-friendly, we can see some great developer-designer workflows. On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 9:35 AM, Jordan Knight [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The reason: tools they know (VS2008), same language on client/server, and consistent API/documentation/tooling (compared to the web where you have to know multiple technologies to do it well). +1 - but don't forget designers here... there aren't really any good tools to bridge the gap from design to JS. This is why I think that even though JS is getting faster and faster with engines like TraceMonkey and V8 I just can't see it passing the usability/creatability (sic) test that designers require... i.e. they will continue to be scared of it. SL and Flash are far more friendly environments for our designing comrades. Add in a compiler, testability and familiarity for developers and the environment is nicer all round. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Jonas Follesø Sent: Monday, 20 October 2008 9:27 AM To: listserver@ozsilverlight.commailto:listserver@ozsilverlight.com Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Hi, First on the AJAX/JavaScript comment: I completely agree. This is something I mentioned in the Future of the web discussion panel at Tech Ed in Sydney. I think that in the end JavaScript might be a stronger competitor to Silverlight than Flash. JavaScript is getting significant faster in Chrome, FireFox and Safari (and Microsoft is playing catch-up in IE8). New frameworks like jQuery (now embraced by Microsoft) is making it easier to build rich JavaScript based applications, and the tooling support is also getting more solid. By using plain AJAX/JavaScript you don't have to depend on any add-in or vendor lock-in. In the future Canvas and Video, when ever implemented in all browsers, might make AJAX/JavaScript an even more compelling alternative to Flash and Silverlight. That being said I am big Silverlight 2 fan, and definitely think the technology is ready for main-stream development work. I think Silverlight 2 will be an easier alternative for businesses wanting to build Rich Internet Applications. The reason: tools they know (VS2008), same language on client/server, and consistent API/documentation/tooling (compared to the web where you have to know multiple technologies to do it well). I also think that the requirements and expectations within (internal) line of business applications will go up as the users get used to great online user experiences on the public web. These users will expect something more inside the company, and I think that in the future having great internal software might be a differentiator for companies wanting to recruit information workers. As to the Flex vs Silverlight 2 decision I don't know enough about Flex to really comment on it. However, I think that most
RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
hI Jempson, What you mean.? Take care Niaz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ross jempson Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 6:39 AM To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Current leaders: Troll / fisherman of the year : Muhammed Niaz Flamer / Flamee of the year : cough cough On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Jonas Follesø [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, First on the AJAX/JavaScript comment: I completely agree. This is something I mentioned in the Future of the web discussion panel at Tech Ed in Sydney. I think that in the end JavaScript might be a stronger competitor to Silverlight than Flash. JavaScript is getting significant faster in Chrome, FireFox and Safari (and Microsoft is playing catch-up in IE8). New frameworks like jQuery (now embraced by Microsoft) is making it easier to build rich JavaScript based applications, and the tooling support is also getting more solid. By using plain AJAX/JavaScript you don't have to depend on any add-in or vendor lock-in. In the future Canvas and Video, when ever implemented in all browsers, might make AJAX/JavaScript an even more compelling alternative to Flash and Silverlight. That being said I am big Silverlight 2 fan, and definitely think the technology is ready for main-stream development work. I think Silverlight 2 will be an easier alternative for businesses wanting to build Rich Internet Applications. The reason: tools they know (VS2008), same language on client/server, and consistent API/documentation/tooling (compared to the web where you have to know multiple technologies to do it well). I also think that the requirements and expectations within (internal) line of business applications will go up as the users get used to great online user experiences on the public web. These users will expect something more inside the company, and I think that in the future having great internal software might be a differentiator for companies wanting to recruit information workers. As to the Flex vs Silverlight 2 decision I don't know enough about Flex to really comment on it. However, I think that most of us have seen great examples of Flash-based RIAs, so the technology is more than capable of delivering great applications. One of my current favorites is http://www.sliderocket.com/. So if you and your team knows Flex, and the company sees that as a important technology in the future, by all means use it! That makes perfect business sense. What I'm saying is that Silverlight 2 feels a need for the .NET/Microsoft development crowd who is comfortable in VS2008 and C#, and now need to meet higher expectations to deliver great user experiences online. - Jonas On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 9:08 AM, Barry Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You want me to give you a run sheet of our entire game plan so you can run it off to your buddies at Adobe, think again bazza :) think again! :) Sorry, nice try but no cigar. no, Scott, it's not that. I actually don't cut much code anymore these days: analysis, design, recommendations, etc. I'm trying to get a deeper understanding on SL's place in the world now/soon and I'm not going to recommend spending resources on cutting edge (if not bleeding edge) if it's not yet worth it to solve real business problems. I don't work in a design agency, I don't work with general-public-facing web. I mean, because I know Flex, I can see more than one option so I'm looking at ROI, product differentiation, what works for where and why, alternatives**, etc. E.g: SL's use of C#, while important for teams, can be negated in other ways: what Peter DeHaan at Adobe is up, etc. As for getting SL infront of eyeballs, I've already given you one suggestion - but I do admit cross-department logistics make it a long shot, which is a shame. so I *am* pumping you for information, Scott, but not for the reasons you think. But you did do a good job shedding a bit more light a couple of emails back, and for that many thanks. barry.b out. ** I've come across more than one example where a DHTML/Ajax-y app would work better than what's been served up with Flex. Perhaps both Flex and SL share a competitor there? --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe
Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
sorry you're being argumentative bazza :) Scott, you think everyone is argumentitive if they don't blindly swallow your used-car-salesman speil and choosing to look at the fine print. Meh. but Scott, while I have your attention, what's the behind the scenes story with this? http://www.sdtimes.com/MICROSOFT_CO_SPONSORS_ECLIPSE_PROJECT_FOR_SILVERLIGHT/About_OPENSOURCE_and_SILVERLIGHT_and_ECLIPSE_and_MICROSOFT_and_SOYATEC/32968 Also... how long until SL2 comes down in Windows Update?? that's a good question related to that: how will the runtime get onto people's machines (inc non Microsoft ones) without Windows Upadate?** ** the answer, Scott, I'm sure we both agree, is compelling apps. Just like Flash did. --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net
RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
I agree that the big number of C# developers will favour SL adoption as the main RIA platform, but remember than that's only one of many languages supported by .NET and thus Silverlight, being VB de most used, but I don’t like it, so let's not talk about it. The DLR will be a huge bump for .NET adoption from other developers, specially from the Ruby and Python communities. For them, SL is a great opportunity to offer a richer experience than AJAX (we're still not there), coding in their own languages and easily sharing business logic, validations, data, etc. I remember a talk at TechED, I don’t remember the name of the guy, but he was talking about IronPython and told us (paraphrasing), you’re not the target of these (or the other DRL languages), if you’re happy coding on C#, MS will be happy, but our real target is the Python community. So as a Python, Ruby or even JavaScript developer, what would you choose as a RIA platform having the DLR? Tooling and integration, and even the languages are not totally there yet, but I was recently looking at a project called Silverline http://github.com/jschementi/silverline/tree/2642bc5b3709565a4037a8d38e7f97b185bbd505 , part of the IronRuby-Contrib project, that will help as a bridge for Rails Devs to SL. Sounds really compelling. Silverline also lets you run pieces of your Rails application on the client, removing the need to write a separate JavaScript or Flash application simply to move functionality to the client. This is accomplished by flagging certain actions as client, and running the necessary pieces of your Rails appliation and Rails itself on IronRuby in the browser. Miguel A. Madero Reyes www.miguelmadero.com (blog) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (871)730-8319 (871)763-0020 Peten #509 Fracc Florida Blanca, 27260 Torreón, Coahuila Please reconsider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail The information in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jordan Knight Sent: Friday, 17 October 2008 11:09 AM To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com Subject: RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? - numbers of developers (no point coming up with cool tools/technology if no one uses it) - resources to help those developers (getting started / moving forward) As I said before, iI think c# developers are the easy sell... I think more focus needs to be placed on designers to get this puppy off the ground. BTW I am a developer by all means... I don't have a lot of design experience (well I think I do sometimes)... I need and want good developers who know their way around the required bits of SL/Expression to work with in the future. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Beattie Sent: Friday, 17 October 2008 11:00 AM To: listserver@ozsilverlight.com Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 9:12 AM, Damian Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually there's probably less work because XAML is a controlled and strict environment the tooling is much better and can be trusted more. Using the designer and palettes in Expression Web or VS2008 to build your CSS styles is not WYSIWYG and for experienced CSS coders is actually, usually, slower. Compare that to Blend where creating reusable styles is a joy. so you're saying the development road-bumps are smoothed by the tooling for Silverlight? I wonder what you make of this then? http://www.sdtimes.com/MICROSOFT_CO_SPONSORS_ECLIPSE_PROJECT_FOR_SILVERLIGHT/About_OPENSOURCE_and_SILVERLIGHT_and_ECLIPSE_and_MICROSOFT_and_SOYATEC/32968 Look, at the end of the day, there's not going to be a lot of difference between Flex and Silverlight. an XML-type markup language to describe the UI, a Java-type language for logic and object creation. Meh. Same (basic) leopard, different spots. Tooling *is* important with quality intellesence, and designer-built interfaces. That's why in the Flex world the tool of choice (not exclusive) is built on Eclipse - to smooth the transition for those Java and ColdFusion developers working with Flex. Couple that with Adobe designer products pushing out Flex UI's. Microsoft has always had quality tooling with VisualStudio but where the battle will be fought (and it doesn't have to be red team Vs blue team but simply horses for courses) is ... (in order, my opinion) - the client runtime availability (the SL player Vs the Flash Player) and therefore the potential reach of the application (so what's wrong with SL being
RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
Actually not everyone Bazza, just you :) We can debate who's the used car salesman here vs. whom isn't until the end of dawn, but I challenge you to prove me wrong on the used car salesman spiel given you seem to have all the answers lately? As for behind the scenes it is what it is? As for how the Silverlight deployment will work - for a guy whom seems to have it all figured out you've not been paying attention. Silverlight will push out through the Windows Update, It will auto-update existing Silverlight installations via the auto-updater, OEM deals, Content driven solutions (ie NBC Olympics style setups) etc. You want me to give you a run sheet of our entire game plan so you can run it off to your buddies at Adobe, think again bazza :) think again! :) Sorry, nice try but no cigar. Scott. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Beattie Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 1:22 AM To: listserver@ozsilverlight.com Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? sorry you're being argumentative bazza :) Scott, you think everyone is argumentitive if they don't blindly swallow your used-car-salesman speil and choosing to look at the fine print. Meh. but Scott, while I have your attention, what's the behind the scenes story with this? http://www.sdtimes.com/MICROSOFT_CO_SPONSORS_ECLIPSE_PROJECT_FOR_SILVERLIGHT/About_OPENSOURCE_and_SILVERLIGHT_and_ECLIPSE_and_MICROSOFT_and_SOYATEC/32968 Also... how long until SL2 comes down in Windows Update?? that's a good question related to that: how will the runtime get onto people's machines (inc non Microsoft ones) without Windows Upadate?** ** the answer, Scott, I'm sure we both agree, is compelling apps. Just like Flash did. --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net
Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
Success or Failure of SL.? Success, I think.. :) No need to worry about that... ;) On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 9:25 AM, Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Actually not everyone Bazza, just you :) We can debate who's the used car salesman here vs. whom isn't until the end of dawn, but I challenge you to prove me wrong on the used car salesman spiel given you seem to have all the answers lately? As for behind the scenes it is what it is? As for how the Silverlight deployment will work - for a guy whom seems to have it all figured out you've not been paying attention. Silverlight will push out through the Windows Update, It will auto-update existing Silverlight installations via the auto-updater, OEM deals, Content driven solutions (ie NBC Olympics style setups) etc. You want me to give you a run sheet of our entire game plan so you can run it off to your buddies at Adobe, think again bazza :) think again! :) Sorry, nice try but no cigar. Scott. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Beattie Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 1:22 AM To: listserver@ozsilverlight.com Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? sorry you're being argumentative bazza :) Scott, you think everyone is argumentitive if they don't blindly swallow your used-car-salesman speil and choosing to look at the fine print. Meh. but Scott, while I have your attention, what's the behind the scenes story with this? http://www.sdtimes.com/MICROSOFT_CO_SPONSORS_ECLIPSE_PROJECT_FOR_SILVERLIGHT/About_OPENSOURCE_and_SILVERLIGHT_and_ECLIPSE_and_MICROSOFT_and_SOYATEC/32968 Also... how long until SL2 comes down in Windows Update?? that's a good question related to that: how will the runtime get onto people's machines (inc non Microsoft ones) without Windows Upadate?** ** the answer, Scott, I'm sure we both agree, is compelling apps. Just like Flash did. --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net -- .net noobie™ --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net
RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
I'm in the same boat as Stephen, in the sense that I've not looked at Flex so can't really comment on the fine details of the technical features, but as far as I've heard, the they sound quite similar to Silverlight 2. However, the way I see it, one of the big things that will differentiate between the technologies, will be perceptions and people rather than the technology. In many ways Silverlight is being pushed as the RIA platform of choice for Line Of Business Applications (LOB) and I believe, like it or not, that there are a lot of businesses out there who wouldn't in the past have considered using RIA, but know that there's a Microsoft platform for it might reconsider. Also think about the following scenario: You're building a large scale system that integrates with lots of external resources and you need to get developers and architects onboard for it. As Silverlight 2 is using .Net and works together easily with technologies like WCF etc. The availability of developers and solution architects with the experience needed for really large scale projects, is likely to be a lot greater than if you went with a Flex/Flash solution. This is not saying that it can't be done with those technologies, I'm just pointing out that as a very broad generalisation, developers working with Flash (and I assume Flex) tend to come from more of a designish background and therefore many times doesn't have the training and experience needed to build truly scalable, high availability solutions. Disclaimer: These are just my wild ramblings, if any Flash/Flex developers with experience and skills to build high end solutions, happen to read this please don't hate me ;) /Ola From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen Price Sent: Thursday, 16 October 2008 1:01 PM To: listserver@ozsilverlight.com Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Hi Muhammad, I can't really comment on Flex but the little I've seen showed me that both technologies were/are moving in similar directions, which you'd expect as they have a similar problem to solve. I can say though, that learning XAML is not a waste given that WPF also uses it. Anything you can do in XAML can be done in code but usually there's fewer lines of XAML to do the same thing. I love working with Silverlight and if it's easy to use and nice to code then people are more likely to use it, meaning over time it will increase market share. I think the biggest thing going for Silverlight is you can use your .Net skills. There's 4 million+ .Net developers out there apparently so that's a lot of people who already know enough to pick it up run with it. cheers, Stephen On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 1:42 PM, Muhammad Niaz [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, So SL released finally, I LOVE it but I have to lot code in XAML for Designing stylying etc. I want to say if we compare to other RIA Technologies like Flex etc. There features and related to developer point of view, are they easy to learn, develop, mean in minimum time we can do lot of work. For example?. And what are the core feature of SL which unique it and add value in it.? Thanks Regards, Muhammad Niaz Software Engineer Intagleo Systems Pvt Ltd. +92 321 569 4195 --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.comhttp://mailenable.com/ - List managed by www.readify.nethttp://www.readify.net/ --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net
RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
Hi Stephen, I agree with your comments related to .NET expertise. But even though I do't know about Flex but I want to say that lot of XAML markup is generated when we are building out styles in App.xaml, and even Designing is also tough for developer point of view L Thanks Regards, Muhammad Niaz Software Engineer Intagleo Systems Pvt Ltd. +92 321 569 4195 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen Price Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 10:01 AM To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Hi Muhammad, I can't really comment on Flex but the little I've seen showed me that both technologies were/are moving in similar directions, which you'd expect as they have a similar problem to solve. I can say though, that learning XAML is not a waste given that WPF also uses it. Anything you can do in XAML can be done in code but usually there's fewer lines of XAML to do the same thing. I love working with Silverlight and if it's easy to use and nice to code then people are more likely to use it, meaning over time it will increase market share. I think the biggest thing going for Silverlight is you can use your .Net skills. There's 4 million+ .Net developers out there apparently so that's a lot of people who already know enough to pick it up run with it. cheers, Stephen On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 1:42 PM, Muhammad Niaz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, So SL released finally, I LOVE it but I have to lot code in XAML for Designing stylying etc. I want to say if we compare to other RIA Technologies like Flex etc. There features and related to developer point of view, are they easy to learn, develop, mean in minimum time we can do lot of work. For example?. And what are the core feature of SL which unique it and add value in it.? Thanks Regards, Muhammad Niaz Software Engineer Intagleo Systems Pvt Ltd. +92 321 569 4195 --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com http://mailenable.com/ - List managed by www.readify.net http://www.readify.net/ --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net
RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
Lucky Silverlight has so many great tools to crank out XAML for you :) At the end of the day is there really any more work in style creation than with something like CSS? At the end of the day you aren't being forced to trawl though pages of XAML if you don't so desire :) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Muhammad Niaz Sent: Friday, 17 October 2008 12:13 AM To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com Subject: RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Hi Stephen, I agree with your comments related to .NET expertise. But even though I do't know about Flex but I want to say that lot of XAML markup is generated when we are building out styles in App.xaml, and even Designing is also tough for developer point of view :( Thanks Regards, Muhammad Niaz Software Engineer Intagleo Systems Pvt Ltd. +92 321 569 4195 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen Price Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 10:01 AM To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Hi Muhammad, I can't really comment on Flex but the little I've seen showed me that both technologies were/are moving in similar directions, which you'd expect as they have a similar problem to solve. I can say though, that learning XAML is not a waste given that WPF also uses it. Anything you can do in XAML can be done in code but usually there's fewer lines of XAML to do the same thing. I love working with Silverlight and if it's easy to use and nice to code then people are more likely to use it, meaning over time it will increase market share. I think the biggest thing going for Silverlight is you can use your .Net skills. There's 4 million+ .Net developers out there apparently so that's a lot of people who already know enough to pick it up run with it. cheers, Stephen On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 1:42 PM, Muhammad Niaz [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, So SL released finally, I LOVE it but I have to lot code in XAML for Designing stylying etc. I want to say if we compare to other RIA Technologies like Flex etc. There features and related to developer point of view, are they easy to learn, develop, mean in minimum time we can do lot of work. For example?. And what are the core feature of SL which unique it and add value in it.? Thanks Regards, Muhammad Niaz Software Engineer Intagleo Systems Pvt Ltd. +92 321 569 4195 --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.comhttp://mailenable.com/ - List managed by www.readify.nethttp://www.readify.net/ --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1721 - Release Date: 15/10/2008 7:29 AM --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net
RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
Actually there's probably less work because XAML is a controlled and strict environment the tooling is much better and can be trusted more. Using the designer and palettes in Expression Web or VS2008 to build your CSS styles is not WYSIWYG and for experienced CSS coders is actually, usually, slower. Compare that to Blend where creating reusable styles is a joy. Regards, Damian Edwards Microsoft MVPhttps://mvp.support.microsoft.com/profile/Damian.Edwards | ASP/ASP.NET Readify | Senior Consultant M: 0448 545 868 | E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | C: [EMAIL PROTECTED]sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | W: www.readify.nethttp://www.readify.net/ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jordan Knight Sent: Friday, 17 October 2008 09:53 To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com Subject: RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Lucky Silverlight has so many great tools to crank out XAML for you :) At the end of the day is there really any more work in style creation than with something like CSS? At the end of the day you aren't being forced to trawl though pages of XAML if you don't so desire :) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Muhammad Niaz Sent: Friday, 17 October 2008 12:13 AM To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com Subject: RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Hi Stephen, I agree with your comments related to .NET expertise. But even though I do't know about Flex but I want to say that lot of XAML markup is generated when we are building out styles in App.xaml, and even Designing is also tough for developer point of view :( Thanks Regards, Muhammad Niaz Software Engineer Intagleo Systems Pvt Ltd. +92 321 569 4195 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen Price Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 10:01 AM To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Hi Muhammad, I can't really comment on Flex but the little I've seen showed me that both technologies were/are moving in similar directions, which you'd expect as they have a similar problem to solve. I can say though, that learning XAML is not a waste given that WPF also uses it. Anything you can do in XAML can be done in code but usually there's fewer lines of XAML to do the same thing. I love working with Silverlight and if it's easy to use and nice to code then people are more likely to use it, meaning over time it will increase market share. I think the biggest thing going for Silverlight is you can use your .Net skills. There's 4 million+ .Net developers out there apparently so that's a lot of people who already know enough to pick it up run with it. cheers, Stephen On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 1:42 PM, Muhammad Niaz [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, So SL released finally, I LOVE it but I have to lot code in XAML for Designing stylying etc. I want to say if we compare to other RIA Technologies like Flex etc. There features and related to developer point of view, are they easy to learn, develop, mean in minimum time we can do lot of work. For example?. And what are the core feature of SL which unique it and add value in it.? Thanks Regards, Muhammad Niaz Software Engineer Intagleo Systems Pvt Ltd. +92 321 569 4195 --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.comhttp://mailenable.com/ - List managed by www.readify.nethttp://www.readify.net/ --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1721 - Release Date: 15/10/2008 7:29 AM --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net
RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
Just on the success of SL in the RIA space... The hard sell is going to be to the designers... they are in many ways married to Adobe PS, but this doesn't they have to stay married to Flash/Flex. They key is, they don't have to stop using PS to do their designs - showing them how easy it is to go from PS / IL to Expression Design/Blend is the goal. Also, showing designers just how many great C# developers are out there to take away their ActionScript/Flex pain so they can concentrate on designs and not program implementation will help attract more designers. I'd put money on there being more C# developers out there than Action Script developers - and that on average the C# developer has more experience (i.e. they are *better* :)). We are starting a new user group called the Silverlight Designer and Developer Network in Melbourne (first meeting Nov 27th - a formal announcement coming soon) especially to help bridge this gap... My observation is that traditionally designers don't have a lot of SIG/community stuff they attend regularly - hopefully the SDDN can buck that trend. Each meeting will have content for designers and content for developers - including lots of content on bridging the gap between the two camps. Bringing designers and developers together regularly creating dialog is the first step to making Silverlight a great success. All sessions recorded and available for free on the site after the meet! As I said there will be a formal announcement very soon so stay posted. Jordan. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jordan Knight Sent: Friday, 17 October 2008 9:53 AM To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com Subject: RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Lucky Silverlight has so many great tools to crank out XAML for you :) At the end of the day is there really any more work in style creation than with something like CSS? At the end of the day you aren't being forced to trawl though pages of XAML if you don't so desire :) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Muhammad Niaz Sent: Friday, 17 October 2008 12:13 AM To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com Subject: RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Hi Stephen, I agree with your comments related to .NET expertise. But even though I do't know about Flex but I want to say that lot of XAML markup is generated when we are building out styles in App.xaml, and even Designing is also tough for developer point of view :( Thanks Regards, Muhammad Niaz Software Engineer Intagleo Systems Pvt Ltd. +92 321 569 4195 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen Price Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 10:01 AM To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Hi Muhammad, I can't really comment on Flex but the little I've seen showed me that both technologies were/are moving in similar directions, which you'd expect as they have a similar problem to solve. I can say though, that learning XAML is not a waste given that WPF also uses it. Anything you can do in XAML can be done in code but usually there's fewer lines of XAML to do the same thing. I love working with Silverlight and if it's easy to use and nice to code then people are more likely to use it, meaning over time it will increase market share. I think the biggest thing going for Silverlight is you can use your .Net skills. There's 4 million+ .Net developers out there apparently so that's a lot of people who already know enough to pick it up run with it. cheers, Stephen On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 1:42 PM, Muhammad Niaz [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, So SL released finally, I LOVE it but I have to lot code in XAML for Designing stylying etc. I want to say if we compare to other RIA Technologies like Flex etc. There features and related to developer point of view, are they easy to learn, develop, mean in minimum time we can do lot of work. For example?. And what are the core feature of SL which unique it and add value in it.? Thanks Regards, Muhammad Niaz Software Engineer Intagleo Systems Pvt Ltd. +92 321 569 4195 --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.comhttp://mailenable.com/ - List managed by www.readify.nethttp://www.readify.net/ --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered
Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 9:12 AM, Damian Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually there's probably less work because XAML is a controlled and strict environment the tooling is much better and can be trusted more. Using the designer and palettes in Expression Web or VS2008 to build your CSS styles is not WYSIWYG and for experienced CSS coders is actually, usually, slower. Compare that to Blend where creating reusable styles is a joy. so you're saying the development road-bumps are smoothed by the tooling for Silverlight? I wonder what you make of this then? http://www.sdtimes.com/MICROSOFT_CO_SPONSORS_ECLIPSE_PROJECT_FOR_SILVERLIGHT/About_OPENSOURCE_and_SILVERLIGHT_and_ECLIPSE_and_MICROSOFT_and_SOYATEC/32968 Look, at the end of the day, there's not going to be a lot of difference between Flex and Silverlight. an XML-type markup language to describe the UI, a Java-type language for logic and object creation. Meh. Same (basic) leopard, different spots. Tooling *is* important with quality intellesence, and designer-built interfaces. That's why in the Flex world the tool of choice (not exclusive) is built on Eclipse - to smooth the transition for those Java and ColdFusion developers working with Flex. Couple that with Adobe designer products pushing out Flex UI's. Microsoft has always had quality tooling with VisualStudio but where the battle will be fought (and it doesn't have to be red team Vs blue team but simply horses for courses) is ... (in order, my opinion) - the client runtime availability (the SL player Vs the Flash Player) and therefore the potential reach of the application (so what's wrong with SL being the perfect choice for inhouse apps with a fixed Windows-based SOE?) - numbers of developers (no point coming up with cool tools/technology if no one uses it) - resources to help those developers (getting started / moving forward) --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net
RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
the client runtime availability (the SL player Vs the Flash Player) and therefore the potential reach of the application (so what's wrong with SL being the perfect choice for inhouse apps with a fixed Windows-based SOE?) end-users already install flash readily - do you think that most end-users wouldn't even know what they are installing anyway and will install Silverlight on request without batting an eyelid? Also... how long until SL2 comes down in Windows Update?? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Beattie Sent: Friday, 17 October 2008 11:00 AM To: listserver@ozsilverlight.com Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 9:12 AM, Damian Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually there's probably less work because XAML is a controlled and strict environment the tooling is much better and can be trusted more. Using the designer and palettes in Expression Web or VS2008 to build your CSS styles is not WYSIWYG and for experienced CSS coders is actually, usually, slower. Compare that to Blend where creating reusable styles is a joy. so you're saying the development road-bumps are smoothed by the tooling for Silverlight? I wonder what you make of this then? http://www.sdtimes.com/MICROSOFT_CO_SPONSORS_ECLIPSE_PROJECT_FOR_SILVERLIGHT/About_OPENSOURCE_and_SILVERLIGHT_and_ECLIPSE_and_MICROSOFT_and_SOYATEC/32968 Look, at the end of the day, there's not going to be a lot of difference between Flex and Silverlight. an XML-type markup language to describe the UI, a Java-type language for logic and object creation. Meh. Same (basic) leopard, different spots. Tooling *is* important with quality intellesence, and designer-built interfaces. That's why in the Flex world the tool of choice (not exclusive) is built on Eclipse - to smooth the transition for those Java and ColdFusion developers working with Flex. Couple that with Adobe designer products pushing out Flex UI's. Microsoft has always had quality tooling with VisualStudio but where the battle will be fought (and it doesn't have to be red team Vs blue team but simply horses for courses) is ... (in order, my opinion) - the client runtime availability (the SL player Vs the Flash Player) and therefore the potential reach of the application (so what's wrong with SL being the perfect choice for inhouse apps with a fixed Windows-based SOE?) - numbers of developers (no point coming up with cool tools/technology if no one uses it) - resources to help those developers (getting started / moving forward) --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1721 - Release Date: 16/10/2008 7:12 PM --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net
RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
- numbers of developers (no point coming up with cool tools/technology if no one uses it) - resources to help those developers (getting started / moving forward) As I said before, iI think c# developers are the easy sell... I think more focus needs to be placed on designers to get this puppy off the ground. BTW I am a developer by all means... I don't have a lot of design experience (well I think I do sometimes)... I need and want good developers who know their way around the required bits of SL/Expression to work with in the future. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Beattie Sent: Friday, 17 October 2008 11:00 AM To: listserver@ozsilverlight.com Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 9:12 AM, Damian Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually there's probably less work because XAML is a controlled and strict environment the tooling is much better and can be trusted more. Using the designer and palettes in Expression Web or VS2008 to build your CSS styles is not WYSIWYG and for experienced CSS coders is actually, usually, slower. Compare that to Blend where creating reusable styles is a joy. so you're saying the development road-bumps are smoothed by the tooling for Silverlight? I wonder what you make of this then? http://www.sdtimes.com/MICROSOFT_CO_SPONSORS_ECLIPSE_PROJECT_FOR_SILVERLIGHT/About_OPENSOURCE_and_SILVERLIGHT_and_ECLIPSE_and_MICROSOFT_and_SOYATEC/32968 Look, at the end of the day, there's not going to be a lot of difference between Flex and Silverlight. an XML-type markup language to describe the UI, a Java-type language for logic and object creation. Meh. Same (basic) leopard, different spots. Tooling *is* important with quality intellesence, and designer-built interfaces. That's why in the Flex world the tool of choice (not exclusive) is built on Eclipse - to smooth the transition for those Java and ColdFusion developers working with Flex. Couple that with Adobe designer products pushing out Flex UI's. Microsoft has always had quality tooling with VisualStudio but where the battle will be fought (and it doesn't have to be red team Vs blue team but simply horses for courses) is ... (in order, my opinion) - the client runtime availability (the SL player Vs the Flash Player) and therefore the potential reach of the application (so what's wrong with SL being the perfect choice for inhouse apps with a fixed Windows-based SOE?) - numbers of developers (no point coming up with cool tools/technology if no one uses it) - resources to help those developers (getting started / moving forward) --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1721 - Release Date: 16/10/2008 7:12 PM --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net
Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
showing them how easy it is to go from PS / IL to Expression Design/Blend is the goal. how? I'd put money on there being more C# developers out there than Action Script developers ahhh... but that's the mistake. You're saying developers can't transfer their skills from one language to another. In Microsoft development there's a lot of C# developers... but then again, there's a lot of Java developers out there ... - and that on average the C# developer has more experience (i.e. they are *better* :)). sure. Designers are designers, not application developers. but C# doesn't have a monopoly on application developers. Not only that, but Flex and SL development need not be any different to traditional software development where the tasks are split between people with different skills. You don't need one person to do it all. you need workflow to move the project from one pair of hands to another. I've come across a lot of crap UX made by C# developers... and when was the last time you came across a really good UI from a Java program? --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net
RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
You're saying developers can't transfer their skills from one language to another I'm not saying they can't... I'm suggesting they don't want to transfer from C# to anything else, .NET is addictive. Like many developers I only work where I want to. Now I can work in my favourite language on client side too! but C# doesn't have a monopoly on application developers I'm not saying it does, but as far as development languages go in the RIA space (well SL v's Flash/Flex/ActionScript anyway) goes - C# has it... Add to that C# skills can be used to make the server side software as well - far more value for money here. If I was evaluating which language to learn - how could I choose the language that binds me to client side development?? I choose the language that I can apply to pretty much anything. C# is also far better supported - Google = 17million hits for ActionScript vs 70million for C#. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Beattie Sent: Friday, 17 October 2008 2:46 PM To: listserver@ozsilverlight.com Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? showing them how easy it is to go from PS / IL to Expression Design/Blend is the goal. how? I'd put money on there being more C# developers out there than Action Script developers ahhh... but that's the mistake. You're saying developers can't transfer their skills from one language to another. In Microsoft development there's a lot of C# developers... but then again, there's a lot of Java developers out there ... - and that on average the C# developer has more experience (i.e. they are *better* :)). sure. Designers are designers, not application developers. but C# doesn't have a monopoly on application developers. Not only that, but Flex and SL development need not be any different to traditional software development where the tasks are split between people with different skills. You don't need one person to do it all. you need workflow to move the project from one pair of hands to another. I've come across a lot of crap UX made by C# developers... and when was the last time you came across a really good UI from a Java program? --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net
RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
Barry: - RE: How? - There are plug-in's available online that will allow you to export from Illustrator to XAML. Given FXG is on the horizon, I'd expect to see more to XAML as well. - RE: Transfer. People generally don't want to change habits, unless they are either bored or curious.. generally the two are one in the same. Adopting a new technology is not an easy trick to do, you have to really be committed to the idea and have a ball of energy behind you to make it happen. Sometimes it's under duress (forced project) but 1x project is fine, sustaining migration to another technology still requires passion and interest. Sure, there are a lot out there, but what's your point? - RE: Designers Developers. Correct, workflow is king - yet you still need an architect whom understands both. It keeps the project timelines in check, and what do you mean by traditional developers? i.e. where are you basing your experience in this regard from? As for Java.. Eclipse :) despite what folks hate/dislike about Eclipse, I'll agree that it's a great ball of Java code meets UI.. sorry you're being argumentative bazza :) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 16 October 2008 8:46 PM To: listserver@ozsilverlight.com Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? showing them how easy it is to go from PS / IL to Expression Design/Blend is the goal. how? I'd put money on there being more C# developers out there than Action Script developers ahhh... but that's the mistake. You're saying developers can't transfer their skills from one language to another. In Microsoft development there's a lot of C# developers... but then again, there's a lot of Java developers out there ... - and that on average the C# developer has more experience (i.e. they are *better* :)). sure. Designers are designers, not application developers. but C# doesn't have a monopoly on application developers. Not only that, but Flex and SL development need not be any different to traditional software development where the tasks are split between people with different skills. You don't need one person to do it all. you need workflow to move the project from one pair of hands to another. I've come across a lot of crap UX made by C# developers... and when was the last time you came across a really good UI from a Java program? --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net
RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
Hi Jordan, Best of luck about your group, for SL. We are with you. J Thanks Regards, Muhammad Niaz Software Engineer Intagleo Systems Pvt Ltd. +92 321 569 4195 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jordan Knight Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 4:16 AM To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com Subject: RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Just on the success of SL in the RIA space... The hard sell is going to be to the designers... they are in many ways married to Adobe PS, but this doesn't they have to stay married to Flash/Flex. They key is, they don't have to stop using PS to do their designs - showing them how easy it is to go from PS / IL to Expression Design/Blend is the goal. Also, showing designers just how many great C# developers are out there to take away their ActionScript/Flex pain so they can concentrate on designs and not program implementation will help attract more designers. I'd put money on there being more C# developers out there than Action Script developers - and that on average the C# developer has more experience (i.e. they are *better* :)). We are starting a new user group called the Silverlight Designer and Developer Network in Melbourne (first meeting Nov 27th - a formal announcement coming soon) especially to help bridge this gap... My observation is that traditionally designers don't have a lot of SIG/community stuff they attend regularly - hopefully the SDDN can buck that trend. Each meeting will have content for designers and content for developers - including lots of content on bridging the gap between the two camps. Bringing designers and developers together regularly creating dialog is the first step to making Silverlight a great success. All sessions recorded and available for free on the site after the meet! As I said there will be a formal announcement very soon so stay posted. Jordan. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jordan Knight Sent: Friday, 17 October 2008 9:53 AM To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com Subject: RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Lucky Silverlight has so many great tools to crank out XAML for you :) At the end of the day is there really any more work in style creation than with something like CSS? At the end of the day you aren't being forced to trawl though pages of XAML if you don't so desire :) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Muhammad Niaz Sent: Friday, 17 October 2008 12:13 AM To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com Subject: RE: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Hi Stephen, I agree with your comments related to .NET expertise. But even though I do't know about Flex but I want to say that lot of XAML markup is generated when we are building out styles in App.xaml, and even Designing is also tough for developer point of view L Thanks Regards, Muhammad Niaz Software Engineer Intagleo Systems Pvt Ltd. +92 321 569 4195 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen Price Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 10:01 AM To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.? Hi Muhammad, I can't really comment on Flex but the little I've seen showed me that both technologies were/are moving in similar directions, which you'd expect as they have a similar problem to solve. I can say though, that learning XAML is not a waste given that WPF also uses it. Anything you can do in XAML can be done in code but usually there's fewer lines of XAML to do the same thing. I love working with Silverlight and if it's easy to use and nice to code then people are more likely to use it, meaning over time it will increase market share. I think the biggest thing going for Silverlight is you can use your .Net skills. There's 4 million+ .Net developers out there apparently so that's a lot of people who already know enough to pick it up run with it. cheers, Stephen On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 1:42 PM, Muhammad Niaz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, So SL released finally, I LOVE it but I have to lot code in XAML for Designing stylying etc. I want to say if we compare to other RIA Technologies like Flex etc. There features and related to developer point of view, are they easy to learn, develop, mean in minimum time we can do lot of work. For example?. And what are the core feature of SL which unique it and add value in it.? Thanks Regards, Muhammad Niaz Software Engineer Intagleo Systems Pvt Ltd. +92 321 569 4195 --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com http://mailenable.com/ - List managed by www.readify.net http://www.readify.net
Re: [OzSilverlight] Success or Failure of SL.?
Hi Muhammad, I can't really comment on Flex but the little I've seen showed me that both technologies were/are moving in similar directions, which you'd expect as they have a similar problem to solve. I can say though, that learning XAML is not a waste given that WPF also uses it. Anything you can do in XAML can be done in code but usually there's fewer lines of XAML to do the same thing. I love working with Silverlight and if it's easy to use and nice to code then people are more likely to use it, meaning over time it will increase market share. I think the biggest thing going for Silverlight is you can use your .Net skills. There's 4 million+ .Net developers out there apparently so that's a lot of people who already know enough to pick it up run with it. cheers, Stephen On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 1:42 PM, Muhammad Niaz [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Hi All, So SL released finally, I LOVE it but I have to lot code in XAML for Designing stylying etc. I want to say if we compare to other RIA Technologies like Flex etc. There features and related to developer point of view, are they easy to learn, develop, mean in minimum time we can do lot of work. For example?. And what are the core feature of SL which unique it and add value in it.? Thanks Regards, Muhammad Niaz Software Engineer Intagleo Systems Pvt Ltd. +92 321 569 4195 --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net --- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net
