Thanks to all who have replied. We seem to have arrived at one bar of
galliard = half a bar of pavan, which is certainly is more plausible than
the original 'Donington' proposal.
However I still have a niggling problem with applying this to Dowland, with
whom this discussion started. The
Peter,
I am afraid this is not correct. I've just took the first manuscript from my
shelf with Italian renaissance music without any particular digging for
something special and what I can see? This is a facsimile edition of
Intabolatura de lauto by Antonio Rotta edited in Venetia 1546. If we turn
Anthony, and all,
I knew I would open up a can of works with these observations. There are
many, many possibilities. We do not know if the original lutes were bass
lutes, or if they were archlutes, or if they were theorbos, or if they were
actually new lutes by Edlinger. The evidence seems
Jaroslaw,
I think it's right ! I have attached two examples : the first strain of the
Pavane La Bataille in Phalèse, Chorearum Molliorum, 1583, and the eqivalent
first strain of the adjoining Gaillarde. What I tried to explain is apparent
here and the tactus inequalis applies perfectly. I was
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qiwVIXdiU4
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXCmEE5pzeo
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Interesting Ed. It is true that is these are just surface scratches,
they could have been erased.
As you mentioned a long nail, I though they might be thin but deep.
However, it would be rather strange for a nail to mark though the
strings right up to the diapasons.
One
player played close
Sorry, Jaroslaw, the list doesn't seem to take attachments... :-(
JM
=== 06-02-2008 13:33:01 ===
Jaroslaw,
I think it's right ! I have attached two examples : the first strain of the
Pavane La Bataille in Phalèse, Chorearum Molliorum, 1583, and the eqivalent
first strain of the
At 01:40 PM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:
Interesting Ed. It is true that is these are just surface scratches,
they could have been erased.
As you mentioned a long nail, I though they might be thin but deep.
However, it would be rather strange for a nail to mark though the
strings right
Thank you for the tip, Anthony. I am just as glad to know you are around !
So, Jaroslaw and all those interested, my music examples are here :
http://adueliuti.free.fr/examples.htm
Best,
Jean-Marie
=== 06-02-2008 13:43:17 ===
Jean-Marie
You have to attatch by links, to a
Was Proportio sesquialtera (3/2) already mentioned?
For reference cf
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mensuralnotation#Wei.C3.9Fe_Mensuralnotation_.28ca._1430-1600.29
(German)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mensural_notation#Proportions_and_colorations
Mathias
Jean-Marie Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Oops ! I forgot about those accents in French - on Phalèse - that IE refuses
to accept !
It should be OK now.
Jean-Marie
=== 06-02-2008 14:25:16 ===
there seems to be a path error!
So, Jaroslaw and all those interested, my music examples are here :
1/It depends what you mean by pulse, but in this case I count one in a
measure for practical reasons (not theoretical).
2/No, I am afraid there is no proportio sign at the beginning of the
galliarda.
3/Word modus was also used for the time-signature
4/If you think that suddenly in 1550 al
Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 13:57:10 +
(GMT)
From: Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota
To: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thank you for this.
Just a thought, but the
Marvelous! Thanks for spinning your yarn, Ed. They also hold the 1680
Cutler-Challen mandolino by Stradivari and a number of other interesting
early mandolins.
http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Mandolins/StradMandolin/StradMandolin.html
At 08:11 AM 2/6/2008, Edward Martin wrote:
I sent
Martyn Hodgson wrote:
I now see from your mention of my guitar stringing email that you
seem to equate 'information' solely with figures whereas I also
include other things such as tunings, examples of solo music, etc
which you do not count as information - we'll bear this in mind.
Jean-Marie,
Actually I haven't said I don't agree with what you wrote. I just reacted to
Peter's email in which he said:
we seem to have arrived at one bar of galliard = half a bar of pavan
Which in my opinion is not correct because it depends what you mean by bar.
If you use modern notation and
Jaroslaw,
I'm afraid missed your point altogether :-(( ! Sorry about that.
I totally agree with what you say in this last mail, of course...
All the best,
Jean-Marie
=== 06-02-2008 15:17:10 ===
Jean-Marie,
Actually I haven't said I don't agree with what you wrote. I just reacted
Monica Hall wrote:
I was tempted to point out early on in this discussion that skips
of a 7th and 9th in scale passages (known as campanellas)
Campanellas are not necessarily skips of 7ths and 9ths. That's not
how they're defined. They are passages of notes that ring over other
notes
On Feb 6, 2008, at 8:15 AM, Mathias R=F6sel wrote:
Was Proportio sesquialtera (3/2) already mentioned?
Would that be like the two bar passage in Dowland's Fancy numbered
5 in Poulton where in bars 26 and 27 the meter changes from common
time to 12/8 and there is a marking that calls for the
Monica Hall wrote:
I was tempted to point out early on in this discussion that skips
of a 7th and 9th in scale passages (known as campanellas)
Campanellas are not necessarily skips of 7ths and 9ths. That's not
how they're defined.
I didn't say that they are. What I said was
skips of a
Campanellas are not necessarily skips of 7ths and 9ths. That's not
how they're defined.
I didn't say that they are. What I said was
skips of a 7th and 9th in scale passages (known as campanellas)
are commonplace in baroque guitar music.
It is the scale passages that are known as
--- Monica Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I would suggest that you start off first and
foremost by asking what would
work in practice with the kind of strings which
might have been available in
the 17th century.
This is the elephant in the room, though!
With all due respect to the
Scale passages are not known as campanellas. I can sing scale
passages. I can't sing campanellas.
Campanellas are a particular kind of scale passage in which each note of the
scale is played on a different string so that the notes overlap creating a
bell like effect. In that context the
Was Proportio sesquialtera (3/2) already mentioned?
Would that be like the two bar passage in Dowland's
Fancy numbered 5 in Poulton where in bars 26 and 27
the meter changes from common time to 12/8 and there
is a marking that calls for the quarter note to
become a dotted quarter (when it
Don't believe everything you read on the lute net.
Now you tell me!
Rob
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On Feb 6, 2008, at 1:10 PM, Rob Lute wrote:
Don't believe everything you read on the lute net.
Now you tell me!
Well, you didn't ask...
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From: Monica Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Scale passages are not known as campanellas. I can sing scale
passages. I can't sing campanellas.
Campanellas are a particular kind of scale passage in which each note of
the scale is played on a different string so that the notes overlap
creating a bell
On Feb 6, 2008, at 12:37 PM, Monica Hall wrote:
Campanellas are a particular kind of scale passage in which each
note of the scale is played on a different string so that the notes
overlap creating a bell like effect.
Yes, I think we got the definition right on the third try.
In that
Monica,
--- Monica Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What are it's musical advantages? It seems to be
creating rather a
problemSurely it would make more sense from a
musical point of view to
tune the instrument straight down from treble to
bass - like the violin,
harpsichord etc...
Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to be in
storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a Heckel looked
at them, and put back into storage in the castle..
ed
.At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Thank you for this.
Just a thought, but
Yes, they do! It is breathtaking. I did take some time looking at the
Strad mandolin, as well as the Strad guitar, Sellas guitars, Voboam guitar,
etc, etc.
Incredible.
ed
At 09:07 AM 2/6/2008 -0500, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
Marvelous! Thanks for spinning your yarn, Ed. They also hold the
Great question. The answer is simple. It would have been strung with a
standard treble, in the usual fashion. I have not worked out what the top
pitch would be - certainly _not_ f at 415, but perhaps at d at 415. The
whole instrument would have been about a minor third lower, so the lowest
Amen.
ed
At 04:29 PM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:
I am also struck by the small number of lutes that actually are
copied now; and when we think that extant lutes are such a small
number of the great variety that once existed, I can't help thinking
that this is further restricting the wide
Thank you Mathias - this is the word I was looking for :-)
All the best
Jaroslaw
-Original Message-
From: Mathias Rösel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 10:10 PM
To: David Rastall
Cc: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Was Proportio sesquialtera
I really do not know. It is possible that it could have been in that
tuning. These instruments were in the possession of a noble family, and it
is not known if the family members played them, or if they had professional
musicians on staff. Obviously big baroque lutes were built by Edlinger,
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