Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[racoon]

On 22.10.2016 14:38, Joel Kulesza wrote:

Interesting, yes, the options are different when that checkbox is
selected (I would have expected them to remain the same but be
overridden by the system colors).  Furthermore, unchecking that box
(which is checked, by default, I believe), permits me to change colors
for items like the shaded box (that I reported on in Ticket 10420).

I will update the ticket with a suggestion to "grey out" the color box
when System Colors is checked.  This should direct users to the right
place and/or right option to enable/disable.


I think your ticket was "removed" without the greyed out suggestion 
being appreciated. I have added a new ticket and a patch for it.


http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/10483

Let's see whether it finds supporters apart from you and me. :)

Daniel

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[racoon]

On 21.10.2016 21:29, racoon wrote:

The cursor is actually hard to see when its color matches the color of
its background. Maybe the idea of setting the cursor color fixed should
be abandoned and inverted colors should be used instead. All writer apps
I know of do so (like Libre and MS). Attached is a quick patch that
seems to achieve this.


I have posted a patch for (optional) inverted cursor color:

http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/10462

Daniel

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[Joel Kulesza]

On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 9:01 AM, racoon  wrote:

>
> On 23.10.2016 16:55, Joel Kulesza wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Speaking of highlighting: is there a way to highlight text in LyX (e.g.,
>> \hl{...} via soul) without ERT?  I can change its color, but not its
>> background...
>>
>
> The PDF Comments module's (Document > Settings > Modules) PDF Markup
> (Insert > Custom Inset) might help (Help > Specific Manuals > PDF comments).


Thanks for the quick reply.  I'll have to explore that module more for
other purposes as well.  However, the default highlighting color is blue.
This can be changed, but there is a lot of overhead here to do something
that should probably be in Text Style dialog if all a user wants is
highlighted text without all the PDF hooks.

Perhaps the default color is something to attack in terms of sensible
defaults in the short term and adding highlighting to Text Style is a long
term change?

If you want to discuss this further, let's start another email thread to
keep things compartmentalized and keep this thread on track regarding
inverted cursors.  My apologies for diverting it to this degree already.

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[racoon]

On 23.10.2016 16:55, Joel Kulesza wrote:

On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 8:39 AM, racoon > wrote:


I guess these are very limited applications as to the changes that
occur background color wise during usage.


I disagree: one can both select text (highlighting it to operate on it)
and highlight the text (e.g., through syntax highlighting).  In
particular, Vim can look like a veritable Christmas tree with different
colors everywhere.  However, this is all up to user preferences.  The
defaults are quite sane.

Speaking of highlighting: is there a way to highlight text in LyX (e.g.,
\hl{...} via soul) without ERT?  I can change its color, but not its
background...


The PDF Comments module's (Document > Settings > Modules) PDF Markup 
(Insert > Custom Inset) might help (Help > Specific Manuals > PDF comments).



Every user interface provides certain default that can't be changed
by the user because the user might not (and does not want to)
consider all the consequences. However, I personally have no problem
with having a preference for inverted cursor in general.


True, but I think that (a) the option is there in LyX already so it
should be preserved and (b) part of open source philosophy is freedom to
choose ... which may extend down to cursor color.


OSX is no application. ;) I know you mean LyX of course.


Aye.  I'm able and willing to work on all three major OSs, but choose
OSX.  However, I very quickly install LyX and Vim no matter where I am
if I will be there for any length of time.

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[Joel Kulesza]

On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 8:39 AM, racoon  wrote:
>
>
> I guess these are very limited applications as to the changes that occur
> background color wise during usage.


I disagree: one can both select text (highlighting it to operate on it) and
highlight the text (e.g., through syntax highlighting).  In particular, Vim
can look like a veritable Christmas tree with different colors everywhere.
However, this is all up to user preferences.  The defaults are quite sane.

Speaking of highlighting: is there a way to highlight text in LyX (e.g.,
\hl{...} via soul) without ERT?  I can change its color, but not its
background...


> Every user interface provides certain default that can't be changed by the
> user because the user might not (and does not want to) consider all the
> consequences. However, I personally have no problem with having a
> preference for inverted cursor in general.


True, but I think that (a) the option is there in LyX already so it should
be preserved and (b) part of open source philosophy is freedom to choose
... which may extend down to cursor color.


> OSX is no application. ;) I know you mean LyX of course.
>

Aye.  I'm able and willing to work on all three major OSs, but choose OSX.
However, I very quickly install LyX and Vim no matter where I am if I will
be there for any length of time.

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[racoon]

On 23.10.2016 16:20, Joel Kulesza wrote:

On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 1:02 AM, racoon > wrote:

However, since there are clear benefits of an inverted cursor (think
about the poor person with red cursor who happens to land in an
inset that has a red background by default, like insets of modules
not available on her system), there should at least be an option in
the prefs then. If you are against making this optional I think the
only sensible default is an inverted cursor.

He or she brought this on themselves and must live with the
consequence.  Red may become blue when they've figured out their
mistake.  Or, they just don't use red backgrounds. Please be wary of
saving users from themselves with no recourse especially when sensible
defaults are provided.

I know no applications where you can set the cursor color.

Two immediately spring to mind: OSX Terminal & cross-platform Vim.


I guess these are very limited applications as to the changes that occur 
background color wise during usage.



Certainly, the users can get themselves into trouble when they change
highlighting to conflict with normal text entry and now things have
disappeared.  However, they've made it their own and no developer should
fault them for it.  If it doesn't work, they can change it to something
else.  Interestingly, a cottage industry as sprung up around providing
color schemes for terminal applications and Vim.


Every user interface provides certain default that can't be changed by 
the user because the user might not (and does not want to) consider all 
the consequences. However, I personally have no problem with having a 
preference for inverted cursor in general.



P.S. It's interesting that my two most relied-upon applications are
named with three letters.


OSX is no application. ;) I know you mean LyX of course.

Daniel

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[Joel Kulesza]

On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 1:02 AM, racoon  wrote:

>
>> However, since there are clear benefits of an inverted cursor (think
> about the poor person with red cursor who happens to land in an inset that
> has a red background by default, like insets of modules not available on
> her system), there should at least be an option in the prefs then. If you
> are against making this optional I think the only sensible default is an
> inverted cursor.


He or she brought this on themselves and must live with the consequence.
Red may become blue when they've figured out their mistake.  Or, they just
don't use red backgrounds. Please be wary of saving users from themselves
with no recourse especially when sensible defaults are provided.


> I know no applications where you can set the cursor color.


Two immediately spring to mind: OSX Terminal & cross-platform Vim.

Certainly, the users can get themselves into trouble when they change
highlighting to conflict with normal text entry and now things have
disappeared.  However, they've made it their own and no developer should
fault them for it.  If it doesn't work, they can change it to something
else.  Interestingly, a cottage industry as sprung up around providing
color schemes for terminal applications and Vim.

- Joel

P.S. It's interesting that my two most relied-upon applications are named
with three letters.

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[racoon]

On 23.10.2016 16:11, Joel Kulesza wrote:

On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 12:41 AM, racoon > wrote:

On 22.10.2016 20:35, Enrico Forestieri wrote:

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 04:49:35PM +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes
wrote:


As LyX stands now, it is often very difficult to put the
mouse cursor
between two insets, because insets, contrary to characters,
are active
beasts. If you click a bit to close to them, something
happens. This is why
some spacing has to be kept to some extent.


Actually, as LyX works at the moment, 2.2.2, it *im*possible to
click between two frames or buttons, e.g. two ERTs or two labels. So
the space doesn't really help there. This is partly due to a
"interaction area" translated to the right. But maybe that should be
changed.

Can't we make it such that clicks too near to boundaries are
ignored?


That seems sensible to me. Or if there is some space in between
insets then at least not have it as being part of the inset.


Again, I ask for caution here.  How does one delineate "too near"? I may
be missing something with this argument.  However, in an already narrow
situation, being forced to click almost the exact center will become a
greater challenge if some clickability is removed from near the elements
on the edge.


The idea of distinguishing between outer and inner inset offsets should 
help here. By keeping the inner offset large enough it seems possible to 
avoid a too "narrow situation".

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[Joel Kulesza]

On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 12:41 AM, racoon  wrote:

> On 22.10.2016 20:35, Enrico Forestieri wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 04:49:35PM +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> As LyX stands now, it is often very difficult to put the mouse cursor
>>> between two insets, because insets, contrary to characters, are active
>>> beasts. If you click a bit to close to them, something happens. This is
>>> why
>>> some spacing has to be kept to some extent.
>>>
>>
> Actually, as LyX works at the moment, 2.2.2, it *im*possible to click
> between two frames or buttons, e.g. two ERTs or two labels. So the space
> doesn't really help there. This is partly due to a "interaction area"
> translated to the right. But maybe that should be changed.
>
> Can't we make it such that clicks too near to boundaries are ignored?
>>
>
> That seems sensible to me. Or if there is some space in between insets
> then at least not have it as being part of the inset.
>

Again, I ask for caution here.  How does one delineate "too near"? I may be
missing something with this argument.  However, in an already narrow
situation, being forced to click almost the exact center will become a
greater challenge if some clickability is removed from near the elements on
the edge.

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[racoon]

On 22.10.2016 16:49, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

Le 22/10/2016 à 14:53, racoon a écrit :

On 22.10.2016 14:38, Joel Kulesza wrote:

With the ability to tweak the cursor color, I agree with Daniel's
suggestion to implement the inverted color patch.


Sorry, I did not make myself clear before. I am suggesting to not let
the user choose the cursor color but instead enforce inverted color. I
think an inverted cursor has the benefit of being visible in any
situation while the downsides seem small. I think most people are either
working with a very light or very dark background. In that case the
cursor would be almost black or almost white, respectively. I think that
is the setting most people use anyway.


As someone who has written his fair share of sentences containing the
words "most people", I can tell you this: this is wrong. There are
people who have set their cursor to bright red for the whole OS and will
complain if LyX does not do that (I do not know them, but I am sure that
they exist). There are people who have some strange color layout that
makes no sense to you and would not be happy with your inverted cursor.


However, since there are clear benefits of an inverted cursor (think 
about the poor person with red cursor who happens to land in an inset 
that has a red background by default, like insets of modules not 
available on her system), there should at least be an option in the 
prefs then. If you are against making this optional I think the only 
sensible default is an inverted cursor.



I would not say that this is a well-known UI paradigm, and there are
probably reasons for that...


I know no applications where you can set the cursor color. There are 
some that don't have an inverted cursor. Like Mozilla Thunderbird which 
I am just writing in this email. However, this is a bad decision on 
their side since someone might want to write their emails in html format 
and set the background color to black. Then the fun is over.



As LyX stands now, it is often very difficult to put the mouse cursor
between two insets, because insets, contrary to characters, are active
beasts. If you click a bit to close to them, something happens. This is
why some spacing has to be kept to some extent.


It is actually already now impossible due to the extra space around 
insets that are counted as interactive area of insets (see my answer to 
Enrico).


Daniel

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[racoon]

On 22.10.2016 20:35, Enrico Forestieri wrote:

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 04:49:35PM +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:


As LyX stands now, it is often very difficult to put the mouse cursor
between two insets, because insets, contrary to characters, are active
beasts. If you click a bit to close to them, something happens. This is why
some spacing has to be kept to some extent.


Actually, as LyX works at the moment, 2.2.2, it *im*possible to click 
between two frames or buttons, e.g. two ERTs or two labels. So the space 
doesn't really help there. This is partly due to a "interaction area" 
translated to the right. But maybe that should be changed.



Can't we make it such that clicks too near to boundaries are ignored?


That seems sensible to me. Or if there is some space in between insets 
then at least not have it as being part of the inset.


Daniel

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[Enrico Forestieri]

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 04:49:35PM +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
> 
> As LyX stands now, it is often very difficult to put the mouse cursor
> between two insets, because insets, contrary to characters, are active
> beasts. If you click a bit to close to them, something happens. This is why
> some spacing has to be kept to some extent.

Can't we make it such that clicks too near to boundaries are ignored?

-- 
Enrico

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[racoon]

On 22.10.2016 16:31, Joel Kulesza wrote:

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 8:19 AM, racoon > wrote:

One question: would it be helpful if one could choose copy,
paste, delete, etc. from the inset button's context menu?


I don't see how this could hurt.  My workflow now is usually to position
the cursor in front of the element I want, shift, right arrow, and
hotkey cut/copy. It works reasonably well for me.

See attached for a couple screenshots of regions where this comes into
play.  To me, it seems narrow already (note that on a non 4K/5K monitor,
this will likely look huge; however scale until the font is 11pt and
you'll see the narrowness).  The screenshot where the cursor is within
the frontmatter inset before the ERT is part of where my concern lies in
the figure->subfigures case (and especially if TikZ is being used for
the subfigures).  At that point, there are lots of nested boxes to
navigate around.


Thanks. Yes, the idea is actually to have different offsets for outer 
and inner spaces. So spaces within insets, like where the cursor is in 
your second screen shot will not disappear. Right now the spaces are set 
to a fixed amount of pixel which leads to a dilemma: either it is hard 
to distinguish from a space on low res screens or it is too small on 
high res screens. We'll see, maybe this can be resolved by having 
scalable spaces. JMarc already paved the way a bit.


Daniel

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[Guillaume Munch]

Le 22/10/2016 à 15:20, racoon a écrit :

However, I am at the moment considering to change LyX's spacing such
that the cursor before an element starts directly at the element. As is
the case with normal characters. It is just a thought for now. This
would only be sensible when the cursor automatically changes color when
placed at a border because it would become (almost) invisible otherwise.


Thanks for the inverted cursor, I find this idea sensible. I like the 
one above less though.



I guess, even these spacing setting could be a setting in the
preference. We'll see.


Please, let us try to find sensible defaults instead of introducing new
settings.

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 22/10/2016 à 17:08, racoon a écrit :

But I guess one could argue that this is a WYSIWYG thing and the only
thing we need in LyX is to clearly see whether a space is a "real" space
or not.


We can allow for spacing as long as it is smaller enough than interword 
space. What needs to be done is really dependent on the inset. I hope to 
land soon a rewrite of mathed spacing that will be helpful in this 
respect, but there is still a lot if extra space around formulas that 
can be problematic. The Superscrit/subscript text inset is bad in this 
respect too.


JMarc

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[racoon]

On 22.10.2016 17:07, racoon wrote:

On 22.10.2016 17:02, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

Le 22/10/2016 à 16:57, racoon a écrit :

The cursor policy isn't fancy but just what other writer apps have. That
is also where I had the idea about treating insets as characters is
from. But as I said, this is just something to consider. You seem to
suggest it's a bad idea. :)


Can you point me to a way to see this with LibreOffice, so that I see
how it behaves?


Sure. Insert a graphic (small or resize it so two graphics would fit
next to each other) and set it's anchor to "As Character", e.g. via the
context menu. Then copy it and paste it so there are two next to each
other.


But I guess one could argue that this is a WYSIWYG thing and the only 
thing we need in LyX is to clearly see whether a space is a "real" space 
or not.

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[racoon]

On 22.10.2016 17:02, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

Le 22/10/2016 à 16:57, racoon a écrit :

The cursor policy isn't fancy but just what other writer apps have. That
is also where I had the idea about treating insets as characters is
from. But as I said, this is just something to consider. You seem to
suggest it's a bad idea. :)


Can you point me to a way to see this with LibreOffice, so that I see
how it behaves?


Sure. Insert a graphic (small or resize it so two graphics would fit 
next to each other) and set it's anchor to "As Character", e.g. via the 
context menu. Then copy it and paste it so there are two next to each other.


Daniel

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 22/10/2016 à 16:57, racoon a écrit :

The cursor policy isn't fancy but just what other writer apps have. That
is also where I had the idea about treating insets as characters is
from. But as I said, this is just something to consider. You seem to
suggest it's a bad idea. :)


Can you point me to a way to see this with LibreOffice, so that I see 
how it behaves?


JMarc

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[racoon]

On 22.10.2016 16:42, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

Le 22/10/2016 à 15:20, racoon a écrit :

However, I am at the moment considering to change LyX's spacing such
that the cursor before an element starts directly at the element. As is
the case with normal characters. It is just a thought for now. This
would only be sensible when the cursor automatically changes color when
placed at a border because it would become (almost) invisible otherwise.
I guess, even these spacing setting could be a setting in the
preference. We'll see.


I think this is a too radical solution. The is some space between
characters and there should be some space etween insets and other stuff.
I understand the problem of extra space around insets, but when it makes
you enforce new fancy cursor policies, then you know this is going too
far :)


The cursor policy isn't fancy but just what other writer apps have. That 
is also where I had the idea about treating insets as characters is 
from. But as I said, this is just something to consider. You seem to 
suggest it's a bad idea. :)


Daniel

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 22/10/2016 à 14:53, racoon a écrit :

On 22.10.2016 14:38, Joel Kulesza wrote:

With the ability to tweak the cursor color, I agree with Daniel's
suggestion to implement the inverted color patch.


Sorry, I did not make myself clear before. I am suggesting to not let
the user choose the cursor color but instead enforce inverted color. I
think an inverted cursor has the benefit of being visible in any
situation while the downsides seem small. I think most people are either
working with a very light or very dark background. In that case the
cursor would be almost black or almost white, respectively. I think that
is the setting most people use anyway.


As someone who has written his fair share of sentences containing the 
words "most people", I can tell you this: this is wrong. There are 
people who have set their cursor to bright red for the whole OS and will 
complain if LyX does not do that (I do not know them, but I am sure that 
they exist). There are people who have some strange color layout that 
makes no sense to you and would not be happy with your inverted cursor.


I would not say that this is a well-known UI paradigm, and there are 
probably reasons for that...


As LyX stands now, it is often very difficult to put the mouse cursor 
between two insets, because insets, contrary to characters, are active 
beasts. If you click a bit to close to them, something happens. This is 
why some spacing has to be kept to some extent.


JMarc

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 22/10/2016 à 15:20, racoon a écrit :

However, I am at the moment considering to change LyX's spacing such
that the cursor before an element starts directly at the element. As is
the case with normal characters. It is just a thought for now. This
would only be sensible when the cursor automatically changes color when
placed at a border because it would become (almost) invisible otherwise.
I guess, even these spacing setting could be a setting in the
preference. We'll see.


I think this is a too radical solution. The is some space between 
characters and there should be some space etween insets and other stuff. 
I understand the problem of extra space around insets, but when it makes 
you enforce new fancy cursor policies, then you know this is going too 
far :)


JMarc

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[Joel Kulesza]

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 8:19 AM, racoon  wrote:

> One question: would it be helpful if one could choose copy, paste, delete,
>> etc. from the inset button's context menu?
>>
>
I don't see how this could hurt.  My workflow now is usually to position
the cursor in front of the element I want, shift, right arrow, and hotkey
cut/copy. It works reasonably well for me.

See attached for a couple screenshots of regions where this comes into
play.  To me, it seems narrow already (note that on a non 4K/5K monitor,
this will likely look huge; however scale until the font is 11pt and you'll
see the narrowness).  The screenshot where the cursor is within the
frontmatter inset before the ERT is part of where my concern lies in the
figure->subfigures case (and especially if TikZ is being used for the
subfigures).  At that point, there are lots of nested boxes to navigate
around.

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[racoon]

On 22.10.2016 15:59, Joel Kulesza wrote:

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 7:55 AM, racoon > wrote:


The benefit of removing (or almost removing) space around insets is
to make sure it is not mistaken for a "real" space. Since many
insets are working just like characters it seems reasonable to make
the spacing around them similar.


I see, fair enough.


Yes, the selecting is already a bit tricky. But maybe that can be
fixed as well...


Yes, please make sure this is sufficiently handled before being
released.  As a user of a 4K monitor at work and 5K at home: making
things more narrow / pixel-measured concerns me.  If OS X builds can be
made available, I'd be happy to help test / provide feedback.


Yes, selecting an inset with the mouse is generally cumbersome. One 
question: would it be helpful if one could choose copy, paste, delete, 
etc. from the inset button's context menu?

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[Joel Kulesza]

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 7:55 AM, racoon  wrote:
>
>
> The benefit of removing (or almost removing) space around insets is to
> make sure it is not mistaken for a "real" space. Since many insets are
> working just like characters it seems reasonable to make the spacing around
> them similar.
>

I see, fair enough.


> Yes, the selecting is already a bit tricky. But maybe that can be fixed as
> well...
>

Yes, please make sure this is sufficiently handled before being released.
As a user of a 4K monitor at work and 5K at home: making things more narrow
/ pixel-measured concerns me.  If OS X builds can be made available, I'd be
happy to help test / provide feedback.

Thanks for taking an active development role lately on such varied items.
It's great to see!  My hope is that once I complete my degree I can do the
same.

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[racoon]

On 22.10.2016 15:47, Joel Kulesza wrote:

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 7:20 AM, racoon > wrote:


However, I am at the moment considering to change LyX's spacing such
that the cursor before an element starts directly at the element. As
is the case with normal characters. It is just a thought for now.
This would only be sensible when the cursor automatically changes
color when placed at a border because it would become (almost)
invisible otherwise. I guess, even these spacing setting could be a
setting in the preference. We'll see.


That's an interesting thought, but I'll admit I'm having a hard time
visualizing it.  What benefit do you see from the modified spacing?
Wouldn't putting the two things closer together make it yet harder to
see?  How will this effect selecting things (will one have to be even
more precise)?


The benefit of removing (or almost removing) space around insets is to 
make sure it is not mistaken for a "real" space. Since many insets are 
working just like characters it seems reasonable to make the spacing 
around them similar.


Yes, the selecting is already a bit tricky. But maybe that can be fixed 
as well...


Daniel

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[Joel Kulesza]

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 7:20 AM, racoon  wrote:

>
> However, I am at the moment considering to change LyX's spacing such that
> the cursor before an element starts directly at the element. As is the case
> with normal characters. It is just a thought for now. This would only be
> sensible when the cursor automatically changes color when placed at a
> border because it would become (almost) invisible otherwise. I guess, even
> these spacing setting could be a setting in the preference. We'll see.
>

That's an interesting thought, but I'll admit I'm having a hard time
visualizing it.  What benefit do you see from the modified spacing?
Wouldn't putting the two things closer together make it yet harder to see?
How will this effect selecting things (will one have to be even more
precise)?

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[racoon]

On 22.10.2016 15:10, Joel Kulesza wrote:

Sorry, I did not make myself clear before. I am suggesting to not let
the user choose the cursor color but instead enforce inverted color. I
think an inverted cursor has the benefit of being visible in any
situation while the downsides seem small. I think most people are either
working with a very light or very dark background. In that case the
cursor would be almost black or almost white, respectively. I think that
is the setting most people use anyway.

Daniel

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 6:54 AM, Joel Kulesza > wrote:

Why not let inversion be the default behavior and then let users
choose?  Perhaps I want my cursor to also stand out from my text...


 Sorry for top-posting the prior couple comments, early-morning
emailing, habit, and default interface behavior all stymie me.

Regardless, to expound a bit on the previous reply: my overarching point
is that developers providing what they believe to be the most sensible
defaults is quite reasonable.  However, preventing (or perhaps worse:
taking away) the ability for a user to change it to his/her preference
does not seem reasonable (the user may have a different belief in what
is "most sensible").

Furthermore, because the option is currently there, folks might miss it
if/when removed/disabled.  It's also not clear to me what significant
savings is made by removing the option to choose the color versus
allowing it to interact gracefully with the background / cursor color
relationship.  Use case scenarios:

 1. Set the background, it updates the cursor to be the inverse,
notifies the user (since they are already in the dialog), and the
user can then update the cursor to the preferred color
 2. Set the cursor, and it changes.

Adding one additional notification doesn't seem like much a burden to
the user vs. the savings gained when a user wonders "why did my cursor
change?"  This is so because I would suspect users aren't changing the
background color very often.


Thanks. Yes, it would be possible to make it default and leave it up to 
the user to disable this setting.


However, I am at the moment considering to change LyX's spacing such 
that the cursor before an element starts directly at the element. As is 
the case with normal characters. It is just a thought for now. This 
would only be sensible when the cursor automatically changes color when 
placed at a border because it would become (almost) invisible otherwise. 
I guess, even these spacing setting could be a setting in the 
preference. We'll see.


Daniel

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[Joel Kulesza]

Sorry, I did not make myself clear before. I am suggesting to not let the
user choose the cursor color but instead enforce inverted color. I think an
inverted cursor has the benefit of being visible in any situation while the
downsides seem small. I think most people are either working with a very
light or very dark background. In that case the cursor would be almost
black or almost white, respectively. I think that is the setting most
people use anyway.

Daniel

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 6:54 AM, Joel Kulesza  wrote:

> Why not let inversion be the default behavior and then let users choose?
> Perhaps I want my cursor to also stand out from my text...
>

 Sorry for top-posting the prior couple comments, early-morning emailing,
habit, and default interface behavior all stymie me.

Regardless, to expound a bit on the previous reply: my overarching point is
that developers providing what they believe to be the most sensible
defaults is quite reasonable.  However, preventing (or perhaps worse:
taking away) the ability for a user to change it to his/her preference does
not seem reasonable (the user may have a different belief in what is "most
sensible").

Furthermore, because the option is currently there, folks might miss it
if/when removed/disabled.  It's also not clear to me what significant
savings is made by removing the option to choose the color versus allowing
it to interact gracefully with the background / cursor color relationship.
Use case scenarios:

   1. Set the background, it updates the cursor to be the inverse, notifies
   the user (since they are already in the dialog), and the user can then
   update the cursor to the preferred color
   2. Set the cursor, and it changes.

Adding one additional notification doesn't seem like much a burden to the
user vs. the savings gained when a user wonders "why did my cursor change?"
 This is so because I would suspect users aren't changing the background
color very often.

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[Joel Kulesza]

Why not let inversion be the default behavior and then let users choose?
Perhaps I want my cursor to also stand out from my text...

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 6:53 AM, racoon  wrote:

> On 22.10.2016 14:38, Joel Kulesza wrote:
>
>> With the ability to tweak the cursor color, I agree with Daniel's
>> suggestion to implement the inverted color patch.
>>
>
> Sorry, I did not make myself clear before. I am suggesting to not let the
> user choose the cursor color but instead enforce inverted color. I think an
> inverted cursor has the benefit of being visible in any situation while the
> downsides seem small. I think most people are either working with a very
> light or very dark background. In that case the cursor would be almost
> black or almost white, respectively. I think that is the setting most
> people use anyway.
>
> Daniel
>
> On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 5:07 AM, racoon > > wrote:
>>
>> I am confused now. Yes, you can change the cursor color in the
>> current version of LyX. And the checked Use System Settings checkbox
>> is visible in Joel's screenshot. If it is unchecked the cursor color
>> can be changed. But I suggest to abandon this option and go for an
>> inverted cursor color.
>>
>> Daniel
>>
>>
>> On 22.10.2016 12:11, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
>>
>> Then it would mean that the change can be done in system prefs.
>>
>> JMarc
>>
>> Le 22 octobre 2016 08:42:18 GMT+02:00, racoon > > a écrit :
>>
>> Wait a sec. Might be that this is because you use system
>> colors?
>>
>>
>> Daniel
>>
>>
>>
>>

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[racoon]

On 22.10.2016 14:38, Joel Kulesza wrote:

With the ability to tweak the cursor color, I agree with Daniel's
suggestion to implement the inverted color patch.


Sorry, I did not make myself clear before. I am suggesting to not let 
the user choose the cursor color but instead enforce inverted color. I 
think an inverted cursor has the benefit of being visible in any 
situation while the downsides seem small. I think most people are either 
working with a very light or very dark background. In that case the 
cursor would be almost black or almost white, respectively. I think that 
is the setting most people use anyway.


Daniel


On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 5:07 AM, racoon > wrote:

I am confused now. Yes, you can change the cursor color in the
current version of LyX. And the checked Use System Settings checkbox
is visible in Joel's screenshot. If it is unchecked the cursor color
can be changed. But I suggest to abandon this option and go for an
inverted cursor color.

Daniel


On 22.10.2016 12:11, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

Then it would mean that the change can be done in system prefs.

JMarc

Le 22 octobre 2016 08:42:18 GMT+02:00, racoon > a écrit :

Wait a sec. Might be that this is because you use system
colors?


Daniel

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[Joel Kulesza]

Interesting, yes, the options are different when that checkbox is selected
(I would have expected them to remain the same but be overridden by the
system colors).  Furthermore, unchecking that box (which is checked, by
default, I believe), permits me to change colors for items like the shaded
box (that I reported on in Ticket 10420).

I will update the ticket with a suggestion to "grey out" the color box when
System Colors is checked.  This should direct users to the right place
and/or right option to enable/disable.

With the ability to tweak the cursor color, I agree with Daniel's
suggestion to implement the inverted color patch.

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 5:07 AM, racoon  wrote:

> I am confused now. Yes, you can change the cursor color in the current
> version of LyX. And the checked Use System Settings checkbox is visible in
> Joel's screenshot. If it is unchecked the cursor color can be changed. But
> I suggest to abandon this option and go for an inverted cursor color.
>
> Daniel
>
>
> On 22.10.2016 12:11, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
>
>> Then it would mean that the change can be done in system prefs.
>>
>> JMarc
>>
>> Le 22 octobre 2016 08:42:18 GMT+02:00, racoon  a écrit :
>>
>>> Wait a sec. Might be that this is because you use system colors?

>>>
>>> Daniel
>>>
>>
>>

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[racoon]

I am confused now. Yes, you can change the cursor color in the current 
version of LyX. And the checked Use System Settings checkbox is visible 
in Joel's screenshot. If it is unchecked the cursor color can be 
changed. But I suggest to abandon this option and go for an inverted 
cursor color.


Daniel

On 22.10.2016 12:11, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

Then it would mean that the change can be done in system prefs.

JMarc

Le 22 octobre 2016 08:42:18 GMT+02:00, racoon  a écrit :

Wait a sec. Might be that this is because you use system colors?


Daniel

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Then it would mean that the change can be done in system prefs.

JMarc

Le 22 octobre 2016 08:42:18 GMT+02:00, racoon  a écrit :
>>Wait a sec. Might be that this is because you use system colors?
>
>Daniel

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[racoon]

On 22.10.2016 04:10, Joel Kulesza wrote:

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 3:56 PM, racoon > wrote:

On 21.10.2016 21:47, Joel Kulesza wrote:

Instead of this, I would rather see a customizable cursor color
in the
Preferences -> Colors dialog.  I would not want to have my cursor a
different color than my text (black on the default page
background, by
necessity).


This is already implemented in

Tools > Preferences... > Look & Feel > Colors > cursor

However, on my suggestion if you work on a rather light background,
like the default sepia, it will look black. At least I could not
tell the difference. So not having it "perfect" black might be a
price worth paying.


I don't see it there (see attached).  Am I missing something?


Wait a sec. Might be that this is because you use system colors?

Daniel

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[racoon]

On 22.10.2016 04:10, Joel Kulesza wrote:

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 3:56 PM, racoon > wrote:

On 21.10.2016 21:47, Joel Kulesza wrote:

Instead of this, I would rather see a customizable cursor color
in the
Preferences -> Colors dialog.  I would not want to have my cursor a
different color than my text (black on the default page
background, by
necessity).


This is already implemented in

Tools > Preferences... > Look & Feel > Colors > cursor

However, on my suggestion if you work on a rather light background,
like the default sepia, it will look black. At least I could not
tell the difference. So not having it "perfect" black might be a
price worth paying.


I don't see it there (see attached).  Am I missing something?


Strange (see attached). You are on LyX 2.2.2 and OS X, right?

Daniel

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[racoon]

On 21.10.2016 21:47, Joel Kulesza wrote:

Instead of this, I would rather see a customizable cursor color in the
Preferences -> Colors dialog.  I would not want to have my cursor a
different color than my text (black on the default page background, by
necessity).


This is already implemented in

Tools > Preferences... > Look & Feel > Colors > cursor

However, on my suggestion if you work on a rather light background, like 
the default sepia, it will look black. At least I could not tell the 
difference. So not having it "perfect" black might be a price worth paying.


Daniel

Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[Kornel Benko]

Am Freitag, 21. Oktober 2016 um 13:47:40, schrieb Joel Kulesza 

> Instead of this, I would rather see a customizable cursor color in the
> Preferences -> Colors dialog.  I would not want to have my cursor a
> different color than my text (black on the default page background, by
> necessity).
> 
> - Joel
> 
> P.S. It would be excellent if the Preference -> Colors dialog was made to
> work on OSX. https://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/10420
> 
> On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 1:29 PM, racoon  wrote:
> 
> > The cursor is actually hard to see when its color matches the color of its
> > background. Maybe the idea of setting the cursor color fixed should be
> > abandoned and inverted colors should be used instead. All writer apps I
> > know of do so (like Libre and MS). Attached is a quick patch that seems to
> > achieve this.
> >
> > Daniel

Tried, and I like it.

Kornel

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Re: Inverted colors for cursor

[Joel Kulesza]

Instead of this, I would rather see a customizable cursor color in the
Preferences -> Colors dialog.  I would not want to have my cursor a
different color than my text (black on the default page background, by
necessity).

- Joel

P.S. It would be excellent if the Preference -> Colors dialog was made to
work on OSX. https://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/10420

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 1:29 PM, racoon  wrote:

> The cursor is actually hard to see when its color matches the color of its
> background. Maybe the idea of setting the cursor color fixed should be
> abandoned and inverted colors should be used instead. All writer apps I
> know of do so (like Libre and MS). Attached is a quick patch that seems to
> achieve this.
>
> Daniel
>