Re: Backwards compatibility broken PR1.1 SDK
Graham Cobb wrote: I do think there may be an option 1.5: create multiple autobuilder queues which feed the same repository but build against different SDK releases. For example, a fremantle queue which builds against the base release (for ever), and a fremantle-pr1.1 queue which builds against the new SDK (for ever), but both populate the same repository (extras-devel fremantle). That would allow the applciation developer to decide which users they are willing to support. If the application supports all fremantle users it submits to the fremantle queue. But if it uses a new feature (or even an important bug fix) from the pr1.1 release the maintainer could submit it to the fremantle-pr1.1 queue. If we did this, I wouldn't object to automatically adding a dependency on the device software version, as long as it is worked out from which queue you submit to. I like - but as someone mentioned to me in a similar situation: testing. We'd need testers for each queue and that may be tricky. David -- Don't worry, you'll be fine; I saw it work in a cartoon once... ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: LCA: How to destroy your community
ext Jeff Moe m...@blagblagblag.org writes: Here is a good article in LWN about a presentation by Josh Berkus. How many of these points apply to Nokia? I'm afraid way too many. Maybe, but I find it also interesting how many points do _not_ apply. Maemo - it could be so much worse :-) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: How to destroy your community
-Original Message- From: maemo-developers-boun...@maemo.org [mailto:maemo-developers- boun...@maemo.org] On Behalf Of ext Jeff Moe Sent: 19 January, 2010 01:41 To: maemo-developers@maemo.org Subject: LCA: How to destroy your community Here is a good article in LWN about a presentation by Josh Berkus. How many of these points apply to Nokia? I'm afraid way too many. http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/370157/2a06baf10df8e58a/ Good read! Some gems: 1) It's also important to set up an official web site which is down as often as it's up. It's not enough to have no web site at all; in such situations, the community has an irritating habit of creating sites of its own. But a flaky site can forestall the creation of those sites, ensuring that information is hard to find. Jeff, you have been hanging around here for what, 2 months? And those two months have been the time in which this place has seen it's biggest growth of all time. Sure that made the system break in the corners, but it's being fixed. Hang around for a couple of more years and then come back with the statistics. 3) There should be no useful information about the code, build methods, the patch submission process, the release process, or anything else. Then, when people ask for help, tell them to RTFM. 4) Project decisions should be made in closed-door meetings. 5) Employ large amounts of legalese. 7) Keep the decision-making powers unclear 8) Screw around with licensing. Community members tend to care a lot about licenses, so changing the licensing can be a good way to make them go elsewhere. Even better is to talk a lot about license changes without actually changing anything; 10) Silence. Don't answer queries, don't say anything. A company which masters this technique may not need any of the others; it is the most effective community destroyer of them all. If you start a discussion in a tone of voice that is asking for a fight, we often disregard the discussion. We aren't here to pick fights, but to try and do something productive. You do get many things done, but your communication style isn't polite. I do understand that controversy can bring about change, but it can also polarize situations. Tero -Jeff ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Finger-Friendly Entry Completion/ComboboxEntry
El lun, 18-01-2010 a las 20:30 -0500, Brent Chiodo escribió: I have to give a bump to this. Does anyone know the secret behind the browser URL bar? Is the code even posted somewhere (Not sure, is that part of the browser open source?). There is no such combobox/comboboxentry in the toolkit. What you see in the browser is something they implemented themselves. As far as I know, the code is not open. The reason why you don't have such a widget available is that, for Maemo 5, we support and encourage the usage of the new Fremantle widgets. For any use case where a combobox is necessary, you have HildonPickerButton. If a combobox with entry is necessary, you have HildonPickerButton + HildonTouchSelectorEntry. Claudio ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: running application automatically at system startup
Hi, Edward Page wrote: Is anyone collecting these How do I... questions and putting them on the wiki? http://wiki.maemo.org/Tutorials http://wiki.maemo.org/User_FAQ http://wiki.maemo.org/Developer_FAQ Psst... don't tell anyone, but it's a wiki. Cheers, Dave. -- maemo.org docsmaster Email: dne...@maemo.org Jabber: bo...@jabber.org ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How to destroy your community
On Jan 19, 2010, at 10:13 AM, tero.k...@nokia.com tero.k...@nokia.com wrote: Some gems: 1) It's also important to set up an official web site which is down as often as it's up. It's not enough to have no web site at all; in such situations, the community has an irritating habit of creating sites of its own. But a flaky site can forestall the creation of those sites, ensuring that information is hard to find. As maemo transitions to a much larger server farm, there have been hiccups. The site has been slow, but has recently gotten significantly faster, in certain parts. Tero is right though, you just haven't been here long enough to have a reliable sample of uptime vs. downtime with regards to maemo.org. 3) There should be no useful information about the code, build methods, the patch submission process, the release process, or anything else. Then, when people ask for help, tell them to RTFM. I dismiss this out of hand. Yes there are places where things could be better documented, but there is a huge body of documentation out there, much of it well written and openly editable. 4) Project decisions should be made in closed-door meetings. 5) Employ large amounts of legalese. 7) Keep the decision-making powers unclear Unfortunately a bit of this is true. But this is part of maemo's dual nature, the half-closed, half-open beastie. To be honest, in a project like debian the entire infrastructure is open to debian developers so there is no closed-door, no cabal. Maemo could do better here. 8) Screw around with licensing. Community members tend to care a lot about licenses, so changing the licensing can be a good way to make them go elsewhere. Even better is to talk a lot about license changes without actually changing anything; You'll have to point to some evidence for this to apply to maemo. The only license changes I have noted are those that go from closed to open, stuff from TI for example. (Thanks again keepsie!) 10) Silence. Don't answer queries, don't say anything. A company which masters this technique may not need any of the others; it is the most effective community destroyer of them all. If you start a discussion in a tone of voice that is asking for a fight, we often disregard the discussion. We aren't here to pick fights, but to try and do something productive. You do get many things done, but your communication style isn't polite. I do understand that controversy can bring about change, but it can also polarize situations. Ooops! No silence here! I guess that disproves point 10. :-) (http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/ -- More non-silence.) Jeremiah As a post script I will add that the maemo community is one of the friendliest communities I have been involved with on the interwebs. Of course the two communities I regularly lurk in, debian and perl, are a bit notorious, but maemo is genuinely friendly. There is plenty of room for criticism, just try to be polite so that the tenor and tone remain positive enough for people to get work done and not get distracted by pejorative attacks. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: running application automatically at system startup
On Jan 19, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Dave Neary wrote: Hi, Edward Page wrote: Is anyone collecting these How do I... questions and putting them on the wiki? http://wiki.maemo.org/Tutorials http://wiki.maemo.org/User_FAQ http://wiki.maemo.org/Developer_FAQ Psst... don't tell anyone, but it's a wiki. Dave! Why did you say that? Now everyone knows that _anyone_ can edit it! Jeremiah ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How to destroy your community
ext Jeremiah Foster wrote: 4) Project decisions should be made in closed-door meetings. 5) Employ large amounts of legalese. 7) Keep the decision-making powers unclear Unfortunately a bit of this is true. But this is part of maemo's dual nature, the half-closed, half-open beastie. To be honest, in a project like debian the entire infrastructure is open to debian developers so there is no closed-door, no cabal. Maemo could do better here. In the end Nokia is expecting to create - and sell! - Maemo based products. So some choices are product driven and unfortunately cannot be communicated / discussed publicly. However some community members have already been involved in testing the recent upgrades before the release, so maybe what could happen in the future is that there could be a larger involvement of people who are not Nokia employees but agree to sign NDAs for being part of early discussions. A similar example comes from the kernel community, where a pool of kernel developers is willing to sing NDAs with industrial players to have access to device documentations and create/improve kernel drivers. igor ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: repository.maemo.org down
Thomas Tanner tan...@gmx.de writes: just replace all repository.maemo.org with stage.maemo.org in .maemo-sdk/index.toolchains Now seems to work with repository.maemo.org in index file. -- http://www.iki.fi/~ananaza/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Backwards compatibility broken PR1.1 SDK
On Tuesday 19 January 2010 08:17:25 David Greaves wrote: Graham Cobb wrote: I do think there may be an option 1.5: create multiple autobuilder queues which feed the same repository but build against different SDK releases. ... I like - but as someone mentioned to me in a similar situation: testing. We'd need testers for each queue and that may be tricky. Do we? I have a goal that all applications install on as many releases as possible and only use a restricted version queue if they **really** have to. I don't want to create processes that give developers incentives to use a restricted queue -- quite the opposite. The tradeoff is that that means that many applications will not be able to have been tested against all the possible releases they might see. But this is very little different from an application being out there when a new release happens. Otherwise we will find that many applications are just not available to most of our users. I predict that by the time Maemo 6 ships, half of all N900's sold will still be running the release that shipped from the factory. Anyone got any data? Graham ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Backwards compatibility broken PR1.1 SDK
On Monday 18 January 2010 22:50:51 Michael Cronenworth wrote: Graham Cobb on 01/18/2010 04:42 PM wrote: I do think there may be an option 1.5: Turning Linux into Windows shouldn't be a project goal of Maemo. I don't understand your comment, Michael, but note that the reason we have a problem here is because Nokia have put in place mechanisms that prevent an application installation from updating just the component packages it needs. So, users get software in whole releases and will be unwilling to upgrade their release just to install an application. We have to live with that and try to come up with a solution that is best for the users. In my view, that means having as many apps as possible available to people who are still running the initial release. Graham ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How to destroy your community
On Tuesday 19 January 2010 07:13:30 Jeremiah Foster wrote: 10) Silence. Don't answer queries, don't say anything. A company which masters this technique may not need any of the others; it is the most effective community destroyer of them all. Ooops! No silence here! I guess that disproves point 10. :-) (http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/ -- More non-silence.) Actually, when I cut and pasted that article snippit I was thinking about his blog *specifically*. AFAICT he has the highest position in Nokia with respect to the Maemo project (correct me if I'm wrong plz). He has a whopping 5 blog posts since the device has been out. His karma in maemo.org is 100% based on his blog posts. He gets asked lots of questions in the blog comments, but rarely answers. Since the N900 has been out, I see he only answered two comments, one of which was mine. ;) The other comment he replied to starts like this: Is there any reason why all my contact attempts with you, Mr. Makkinen and other Maemo people at Nokia are being ignored? ... Excuse me for posting it this way, but what else am I supposed to do if all I get in exchange for my emails is delivery confirmations? I wonder if he ever got a response. Blogs are often used as two way communication tools, he uses it for the occasional edict or a marketing promotion tool. -Jeff ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How to destroy your community
On tis, 2010-01-19 at 12:10 +0100, ext Jeff Moe wrote: On Tuesday 19 January 2010 07:13:30 Jeremiah Foster wrote: 10) Silence. Don't answer queries, don't say anything. A company which masters this technique may not need any of the others; it is the most effective community destroyer of them all. Ooops! No silence here! I guess that disproves point 10. :-) (http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/ -- More non-silence.) Actually, when I cut and pasted that article snippit I was thinking about his blog *specifically*. AFAICT he has the highest position in Nokia with respect to the Maemo project (correct me if I'm wrong plz). He has a whopping 5 blog posts since the device has been out. His karma in maemo.org is 100% based on his blog posts. He gets asked lots of questions in the blog comments, but rarely answers. Since the N900 has been out, I see he only answered two comments, one of which was mine. ;) The other comment he replied to starts like this: Is there any reason why all my contact attempts with you, Mr. Makkinen and other Maemo people at Nokia are being ignored? ... Excuse me for posting it this way, but what else am I supposed to do if all I get in exchange for my emails is delivery confirmations? I wonder if he ever got a response. Blogs are often used as two way communication tools, he uses it for the occasional edict or a marketing promotion tool. So, what you're saying is that you acknowledge that Ari is the highest ranking person within Maemo. Then you are surprised that he doesn't have time to answer random comments made on his blog... Regards: David Weinehall ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How to destroy your community
On Tuesday 19 January 2010 06:13:00 tero.k...@nokia.com wrote: Some gems: 1) It's also important to set up an official web site which is down as often as it's up. It's not enough to have no web site at all; in such situations, the community has an irritating habit of creating sites of its own. But a flaky site can forestall the creation of those sites, ensuring that information is hard to find. Jeff, you have been hanging around here for what, 2 months? And those two months have been the time in which this place has seen it's biggest growth of all time. Sure that made the system break in the corners, but it's being fixed. I've had my device for 1200 hours so far (50 days). For how many of those hours have the various services been down? I'm not sure everything has ever been working for a full complete day. Break in the corners? That's quite a gloss. We've heard for quite some time (months before I came) about the big server move. Is this done? AFAICT, the servers have been moved and the new system is set up with tweaks being done (such as akamai serving gunzipped files!). Correct me if I'm wrong, and I hope I am, but it appears the servers have been moved to an ISP that cannot fix a broken NFS mount on the weekend. Is this really the situation? How on earth did maemo get stuck with this ISP? Who are they, in fact? It also looks like maemo.org DNS depends upon Nokia's nameservers. Apart from the NFS problems over the weekend, DNS resolution was also awry. Is there no one to fix DNS issues at Nokia on weekends? Is this really why DNS was down for so long? That can hardly be blamed on growth. A small pentium could keep up with maemo DNS requests. This is a problem of design and procedure, not of growth. DNS nowadays is often as simple as filling in a web form. This isn't rocket science. Perhaps it's time to move maemo.org DNS out of Nokia's hands and to a separate provider. There are likely hundreds that will provide better service than Nokia. I recommend DirectNIC since they were able to withstand, with zero downtime, hurricane Katrina from downtown New Orleans, but there are many many providers that could handle it. Hang around for a couple of more years and then come back with the statistics. Do you have any statistics for 2009? Would you be willing to share them? Do you realize even if you run things perfectly 100% for the rest of 2010 you have zero chance of 99.9% uptime (a reasonable baseline)? So I'll have to wait until 2011 statistics til the servers are more in line with industry expectations. A few admins commented in threads about the outage along the line of if something is down, we work non-stop until it is back up or even we'd be laid off if this happend at work. It seems that attitude is lacking with respect to maemo. During the most recent outage, I was able to provision an entirely new server and have a fresh OS install on a second one while on vacation in the mountains with a seriously crap wifi connection, yet no one in all of maemo/nokia was able to do anything to alleviate the outages? I don't have to be here for years to see how things are managed and where the problems are. -Jeff Moe http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Jebba ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
upload invitations disabled?
Hi, who is responsible for processing the requests for an invitation for upload rights for Extras? https://garage.maemo.org/extras-assistant/index.php I've tried it a couple of times over past few weeks but I did not get any response so far.. :( Thanks -- Thomas Tanner -- email: tan...@gmx.de GnuPG: 1024/5924D4DD ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How to destroy your community
2010/1/19 Jeff Moe m...@blagblagblag.org I don't have to be here for years to see how things are managed and where the problems are. -Jeff Moe http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Jebba Nope, but it would be good for you so that you can see the bigger picture. This was second time to me when repos didn't work if my memory doesn't betray me. So since 2008 and two times out of n repos were malfunctioning. Shocking. Ossipena / Timo ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How to destroy your community
On Tuesday 19 January 2010 08:20:42 David Weinehall wrote: On tis, 2010-01-19 at 12:10 +0100, ext Jeff Moe wrote: On Tuesday 19 January 2010 07:13:30 Jeremiah Foster wrote: 10) Silence. Don't answer queries, don't say anything. A company which masters this technique may not need any of the others; it is the most effective community destroyer of them all. Ooops! No silence here! I guess that disproves point 10. :-) (http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/ -- More non-silence.) Actually, when I cut and pasted that article snippit I was thinking about his blog *specifically*. AFAICT he has the highest position in Nokia with respect to the Maemo project (correct me if I'm wrong plz). He has a whopping 5 blog posts since the device has been out. His karma in maemo.org is 100% based on his blog posts. He gets asked lots of questions in the blog comments, but rarely answers. Since the N900 has been out, I see he only answered two comments, one of which was mine. ;) The other comment he replied to starts like this: Is there any reason why all my contact attempts with you, Mr. Makkinen and other Maemo people at Nokia are being ignored? ... Excuse me for posting it this way, but what else am I supposed to do if all I get in exchange for my emails is delivery confirmations? I wonder if he ever got a response. Blogs are often used as two way communication tools, he uses it for the occasional edict or a marketing promotion tool. So, what you're saying is that you acknowledge that Ari is the highest ranking person within Maemo. I take that as a confirmation. Then you are surprised that he doesn't have time to answer random comments made on his blog... I wouldn't say I'm surprised. I can't find anywhere in the *.maemo.org space where he is interacting with folks. For instance, take an *ideal* project leader like Linus. If he had a blog, he might not answer random blog comments, but there's another mechanism for communicating with him, most prominently LKML. So there is two way communication. My point with the blog is that it's almost entirely one way with the community. Perhaps he's on some list or something I've overlooked--if so, please correct me. -Jeff ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: upload invitations disabled?
Hello, Thomas Tanner wrote: Hi, who is responsible for processing the requests for an invitation for upload rights for Extras? https://garage.maemo.org/extras-assistant/index.php I've tried it a couple of times over past few weeks but I did not get any response so far.. :( No, they are not disabled. There is an issue with account synchronization between 3 servers. We have to resolve that first before it makes sense to approve new requests. I would like to ask a little bit more patience. I hope we can accept requests later today, or tomorrow. Thanks Cheers, ferenc ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How to destroy your community
2010/1/19 Jeff Moe m...@blagblagblag.org: I wouldn't say I'm surprised. I can't find anywhere in the *.maemo.org space where he is interacting with folks. For instance, take an *ideal* project leader like Linus. If he had a blog... He has: http://torvalds-family.blogspot.com/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How to destroy your community
Hi Jeff, Jeff Moe wrote: I've had my device for 1200 hours so far (50 days). For how many of those hours have the various services been down? I'm not sure everything has ever been working for a full complete day. Break in the corners? That's quite a gloss. You could accomplish a lot more by rattling fewer cages. You've known this community for 50 days. Rather than rubbishing the work which everyone has done on this project *before* you arrived, you could criticise a little less frequently, tone down the sabre rattling, and in general be a bit nicer. This has never been a community where he who shouts loudest gets his way - please don't try to turn it into one. Cheers, Dave. -- maemo.org docsmaster Email: dne...@maemo.org Jabber: bo...@jabber.org ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How to destroy your community
Dnia wtorek, 19 stycznia 2010 o 12:57:32 Jeff Moe napisał(a): For instance, take an ideal project leader like Linus. If he had a blog Linus Torvalds has a blog and posts there. http://torvalds-family.blogspot.com/ Regards, -- JID: h...@jabber.org Website: http://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcinjuszkiewicz ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How to destroy your community
On Tuesday 19 January 2010 10:00:51 Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote: Dnia wtorek, 19 stycznia 2010 o 12:57:32 Jeff Moe napisał(a): For instance, take an ideal project leader like Linus. If he had a blog Linus Torvalds has a blog and posts there. http://torvalds-family.blogspot.com/ Haha! And he even occassionally responds to comments there too! (More than Maemo's leader.) Like I said, *ideal* ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Reverting autobuilder to fremantle sdk maemo 5 update 1
Hi, To prevent issues with backwards compatibility for applications in fremantle extras-devel, we're going to revert the autobuilder to the previous sdk repository. This will give us some time to come up with a better solution for PR1.2 and will not create a lot of issues in the meanwhile. All applications which have been compiled against the new sdk will be recompiled. If you can't wait for this recompile, please submit a new version to the builder. -- Niels Breet maemo.org webmaster ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How to destroy your community
http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/370157/2a06baf10df8e58a/ Interesting! My personal take: 1 is to make the project depend as much as possible on difficult tools Improving 2: Encourage the presence of poisonous people and maximize the damage that they can create. sense of humourNow this makes me wonder whether I should be putting my time in this reply... politically correct smiley ;) /politically correct smiley/sense of humour 3: Provide no documentation. Actually our problem is to organize well all the documentation available. Improving. 4: Project decisions should be made in closed-door meetings. True in many cases. Half of them come from the fact of having to run a profitable business in a very competitive sector. The other half comes from an inertia, consequence of the same business reason. Improving. 5: Employ large amounts of legalese. Nokia has legalese for the Nokia actions and products. For the Maemo community we have very light http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_contribution_guidelines and little else. We have used NDAs with community members only to give them access to secret hardware, as per suggestion of the own community. 6: The community liaison must be chosen carefully. It has been chosen carefully, indeed. ;) Jokes apart, we have a rich community liasion including several Nokia members (some of them appointed, some of them at their own risk) specialized in their areas and, in the other end, an elected Council and a professional maemo.org development team. 7: Governance obfuscation. You might or might not agree on the part governed by Nokia, but it's clearly formulated. The community governance is decently clear and documented imho. 8: Screw around with licensing. For the feedback received it looks like the LGPL based licensing makes happy a majority of community commercial developers. Now even Qt is LGPL. Note that a % of legalese Nokia has is precisely to make sure that we act properly with licenses. 9: Do not allow anybody outside the company to have commit access, ever. Basically true for the components copyrighted by Nokia, even if there is a grey area with e.g. Hildon or Modest. On the other hand Maemo is made of hundreds of components where no Nokia developer has commits rights. I believe we have to solve other problems before this one e.g. increasing the code contributions in the first place. 10: Silence. Actually I and other Nokians would get a lot more work done if we wouldn't be active here so often. :) Let me add one point, since this is about companies nurturing communities: 11: Fail in your core business Then no matter how good you are in 1-10 your community project will fail. -- Quim Gil open source advocate Maemo Devices @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How to destroy your community
I think you see maemo.org as being integral part of the Nokia set of websites. It is actually not. maemo.org is, , gifted by Nokia to the community around Maemo. We control it and they are kind enough to pay for everything, but just don't expect it to be nokia.com... In fact there is maemo.nokia.com and that's a different story and totally out of our reach. As for Jaaksi, he's a manager, what'd you expect? To come and answer to all bloggers questions? Moreover that's his personal blog, I think he's free to write/respond to whoever he decides to, isn't him? Anyway.. I think you simply have a wrong expectation on what maemo.org should be and behave. The whole Maemo eco-system is something quite new, and may be hard to grasp at first (and yes, two months do count as at first even if it looks like a lot of hours). So please, first try to really get the idea behind Maemo and maemo.org, then complain with a solid foundation for your arguments (and you'll ever find people willing to discuss more). Aniello ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How to destroy your community
ext Jeff Moe wrote: Haha! And he even occassionally responds to comments there too! (More than Maemo's leader.) Like I said, *ideal* Linus Torvalds is chief architect and coordinator of a free software project, hired by a non-profit foundation. Ari Jaaksi is vice-president of a corporation and head of a team developing devices with free and commercial software. If you want to compare both at the same level, that is your choice. On the other hand you could reckon that is not frequent to find business managers at his level blogging and commenting with his casual and quite straightforward approach. -- Quim Gil open source advocate Maemo Devices @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How to destroy your community
Dnia wtorek, 19 stycznia 2010 o 11:13:30 Jeremiah Foster napisał(a): 8) Screw around with licensing. Community members tend to care a lot about licenses, so changing the licensing can be a good way to make them go elsewhere. Even better is to talk a lot about license changes without actually changing anything; You'll have to point to some evidence for this to apply to maemo. The only license changes I have noted are those that go from closed to open, stuff from TI for example. (Thanks again keepsie!) There were components which got closed in Diablo but were open before. Can not tell names now but I remember such event happened. Regards, -- JID: h...@jabber.org Website: http://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcinjuszkiewicz ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How to destroy your community
Am Dienstag, den 19.01.2010, 15:37 +0200 schrieb Quim Gil: I believe we have to solve other problems before this one e.g. increasing the code contributions in the first place. With regard to attaching patches in Bugzilla, it's currently probably quite non-attractive because: * It's not clear where which code repositories are located and if the code is free, and if so how up-to-date it is. Carsten Munk is working on providing an overview for this (9.11-04). Of course tarballs are available, but that means hacking ancient code. * Code reviews by maintainers often take way too long. Nokia should put a high priority on any community-provided patches, otherwise contributors get impatient and lose motivation. In the long run looking forward to seeing co-maintainership of projects. Wondering if anybody has tried yet in the Maemosphere... andre -- Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Disable portrait support for dialog with Hildon
Hi, ext Cornelius Hald wrote: On Thu, 2009-10-29 at 17:31 +0100, Piñeiro wrote: From: Cornelius Hald h...@icandy.de the main window of my app supports portrait mode. Now I have a settings dialog which does not support portrait mode but it inherits those flags from the main window. So you'll have the main window in portrait mode, and there is a possibility that a dialog in non-portrait mode appear? No, the dialog is only accessible in landscape mode. But if the dialog is open, I want it to stay in landscape mode. I'm not a expert in usability, but this would be confusing for me, and it would force me to rotate 90 degrees the device in order to read properly the dialog. There isn't any possibility to support the portrait mode in the dialog? Of course there is, but the dialog does not make much sense in portrait mode because it also contains text fields. And of course it's additional work. Several other possible solutions. * Change to portrait mode support of the parent window before showing the dialog. * Change settings dialog to a settings window. * Remove settings option from the main window menu when it's in portrait mode. I think last would be nicest solution. - Eero ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How to destroy your community
ext Dave Neary dne...@maemo.org writes: You could accomplish a lot more by rattling fewer cages. You've known this community for 50 days. It is important to listen to newcomers. They can provide much needed reality checks and maybe keep you from staring at your own naval too much. While it is certainly nice to get these reality checks delivered in nice ways, we should listen to what is being said even if we don't like the tone. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Garage mailing lists still down?
Hi, I sent an e-mail to a garage mailing (specifically the pymaemo-developers one) yesterday, and got the following today: Delivery to the following recipient has been delayed: pymaemo-develop...@garage.maemo.org Message will be retried for 2 more day(s) Technical details of temporary failure: The recipient server did not accept our requests to connect. Learn more at http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=7720 [garage.maemo.org (1): Connection timed out] I wonder if the garage mailing lists are still offline due to the server migration? I remember reading that the maemo.org mailing lists were migrated some time ago, but how about the garage ones? TIA, -- Anderson Lizardo OpenBossa Labs - INdT Manaus - Brazil ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Backwards compatibility broken PR1.1 SDK
Graham Cobb on 01/19/2010 05:08 AM wrote: We have to live with that and try to come up with a solution that is best for the users. In my view, that means having as many apps as possible available to people who are still running the initial release. This should be noted as a failure of Nokia to produce an open device. I suppose I was too optimistic in thinking all N900s that have third-party applications installed have access to the Internet and would update all software when the device told them updates are available. Perhaps the SSU (or whatever the acronym is) should be updated to not list or allow any third party updates when Nokia pushes a major update. After all I've said, I still believe option 3 is the best option. Building multiple packages for Maemo 5 is a ridiculous solution. If someone is still running 2009-42-1 and it's the year 2011 and they want to install a third party app with a lib dep on a 2010-12-1 update, then SSU will not let the update happen due to the dep. The user will be told why they can't update their little fart app. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How to destroy your community
ext Andre Klapper wrote: Am Dienstag, den 19.01.2010, 15:37 +0200 schrieb Quim Gil: I believe we have to solve other problems before this one e.g. increasing the code contributions in the first place. With regard to attaching patches in Bugzilla, it's currently probably quite non-attractive because: * It's not clear where which code repositories are located and if the code is free, and if so how up-to-date it is. Carsten Munk is working on providing an overview for this (9.11-04). Of course tarballs are available, but that means hacking ancient code. * Code reviews by maintainers often take way too long. Nokia should put a high priority on any community-provided patches, otherwise contributors get impatient and lose motivation. Sure, I was thinking about http://maemo.gitorious.org/ In the long run looking forward to seeing co-maintainership of projects. Wondering if anybody has tried yet in the Maemosphere... andre -- Quim Gil open source advocate Maemo Devices @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How to destroy your community
Hi, It is important to listen to newcomers. They can provide much needed reality checks and maybe keep you from staring at your own naval too much. I'm another such newcomer. As Quim said, one weak point right now is documentation (maybe more about finding what you need than about not having enough). While documentation is spread out between forum.nokia.com and maemo.org, it seems to me that the maemo.org wiki will be the principal hub for Maemo documentation. Am I correct? Now, let's look at Maemo. It's a new phone operating system in a highly competitive area. iPhone OS and Android seem to be far ahead, and the #2 handset manufacturer just unveiled their own OS, Bada. So what is needed for Maemo? Developers, developers, developers. And while there are many applications already available for Maemo (as long-time community members are quick to point out), we are in dire need of slick, useful, finger-friendly applications. The kind of stuff that gets downloaded in the millions in the Apple Store. The stuff users are willing to pay for. These developers work for companies. They are paid to develop these apps and probably aready have experience developing iPhone and/or Android apps. Now imagine their manager coming to them, asking about the progress they are making and those developers replying sorry, I couldn't make any progress this afternoon, wiki.maemo.org was down. Now I know Nokia just sponsors maemo.org, but maybe that's not enough. This is not a experience we want newcomers to have. Because it might be our only chance to get them as developers. As Jeff said running a website is not rocket science. I'm a sysadmin myself. I know it hurts when your baby is down, you don't need other people pointing that out, but fact is the situation was unacceptable and it dragged out for far too long. Server migration is not rocket science either. So far we have a weekend of downtime plus data loss (!) because of a server move. In a business environment, that would seriously threaten the jobs of the people responsible for it. If maemo.org is the go-to place for all things Maemo, then Nokia cannot afford to run it like a hobbyist website. While it is certainly nice to get these reality checks delivered in nice ways, we should listen to what is being said even if we don't like the tone. I too am of the opinion that people need to be woken up. I think the you need to be around for X years to be taken seriously replies are a dangerous thing for Maemo. First of all, this is not just a specialized tablet operating system anymore. We are competing against Smartphones now. The landscape has changed, the competition just got a lot tougher. People like Jeff (and me) come from this background. Frankly, I don't care how things were during OS2007 days. I care how things are compared to Android. And I don't need to be here for several years to witness the server problems. Having problems accessing developer.android.com? No, right? You couldn't take that site down even if you tried. That's the benchmark. Sorry, had to be said. Just remember that all I'm trying to do is wake up people before it's too late. I love programming with Qt and I think the N900 is a very promising device. But in my opinion we need a critical mass of commercial developers for the users to come. Cheers anyway, Stephan ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Garage mailing lists still down?
El mar, 19-01-2010 a las 16:55 +0200, Ferenc Szekely escribió: I wonder if the garage mailing lists are still offline due to the server migration? I remember reading that the maemo.org mailing lists were migrated some time ago, but how about the garage ones? I made requests for a DNS change and an SMTP server config change. After these we should be able to send mails to lists hosted on garage.maemo.org. May I ask why these kind of changes are not notified in advance? Claudio ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Garage mailing lists still down?
Claudio Saavedra wrote: El mar, 19-01-2010 a las 16:55 +0200, Ferenc Szekely escribió: I wonder if the garage mailing lists are still offline due to the server migration? I remember reading that the maemo.org mailing lists were migrated some time ago, but how about the garage ones? I made requests for a DNS change and an SMTP server config change. After these we should be able to send mails to lists hosted on garage.maemo.org. May I ask why these kind of changes are not notified in advance? Because I forgot to request them. Claudio ferenc ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Garage mailing lists still down?
El mar, 19-01-2010 a las 17:00 +0200, Ferenc Szekely escribió: May I ask why these kind of changes are not notified in advance? Because I forgot to request them. What I'm asking is why we, the users of these services, are not notified in advance of the downtime of services. I think that if we want to provide third-party developers with a service they can rely on, we should be telling them in advance, when these will be down. If services go down without notice, you just harm the sense of reliability that users have of them. That's not good for garage. Claudio ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Reverting autobuilder to fremantle sdk maemo 5 update 1
On Tue, 2010-01-19 at 14:25 +0100, Niels Breet wrote: Hi, To prevent issues with backwards compatibility for applications in fremantle extras-devel, we're going to revert the autobuilder to the previous sdk repository. And this breaks applications trying to use new packages, like sharing-dialog-dev -- Kaj-Michael Lang mil...@tal.org ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Reverting autobuilder to fremantle sdk maemo 5 update 1
On Tue, 2010-01-19 at 14:25 +0100, Niels Breet wrote: Hi, To prevent issues with backwards compatibility for applications in fremantle extras-devel, we're going to revert the autobuilder to the previous sdk repository. And this breaks applications trying to use new packages, like sharing-dialog-dev Yes it does. This has also negative sides, that is why doing things like this is a hard decision. More applications are not using the new features than the other way around. Work and discussions are going on to have this sorted out for PR1.2. -- Kaj-Michael Lang mil...@tal.org -- Niels Breet maemo.org webmaster ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Reverting autobuilder to fremantle sdk maemo 5 update 1
On Tuesday 19 January 2010 15:08:59 Kaj-Michael Lang wrote: And this breaks applications trying to use new packages, like sharing-dialog-dev Is this a new package in the latest SDK? Or a new version of an existing package? If it is a new package we could experiment with putting a version in extras-devel (and extras-testing and, eventually, extras) -- I sugest giving it a version nmber lower than the PR1.1 SDK version. Before letting it ship in to extras, we would have to do testing to find out whether having the package installed from extras before doing the upgrade causes any problems for the upgrade. If it is a new version of an existing package, we need something like my multi-queue solution, if that is workable, or multiple repositories. Graham ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Reverting autobuilder to fremantle sdk maemo 5 update 1
Dnia wtorek, 19 stycznia 2010 o 16:39:06 Graham Cobb napisał(a): On Tuesday 19 January 2010 15:08:59 Kaj-Michael Lang wrote: And this breaks applications trying to use new packages, like sharing-dialog-dev If it is a new package we could experiment with putting a version in extras-devel (and extras-testing and, eventually, extras) -- I sugest giving it a version nmber lower than the PR1.1 SDK version. Hack, hack, hack... Then someone will write app which will require libosso from 51-1 and we will hack to make it possible for users with older firmware to install it etc etc etc? So far Maemo apps often behave like not being tested (or had bugs at design phase) - this will just add new ones. And when firmware updates will get to extras* just to make some builds happy I will request Modest 3.1.18-0m5-hrw3 to be built and put in there too. Regards, -- JID: h...@jabber.org Website: http://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcinjuszkiewicz ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Problems when trying to enter a new bug in Bugzilla
[sorry if this is not the correct channel for such reports, but in this case I obviously can't open a bug report; the error mentions bugzi...@maemo.org, but I don't know if it is valid] When I try to submit a new bug report, I get the following error (after pressing the submit button): ### Bugzilla has suffered an internal error. Please save this page and send it to bugzi...@maemo.org with details of what you were doing at the time this message appeared. URL: https://bugs.maemo.org/post_bug.cgi undef error - Insecure dependency in exec while running with -T switch at /usr/share/perl5/Mail/Mailer/sendmail.pm line 22. ### Any known problems? Regards, -- Anderson Lizardo OpenBossa Labs - INdT Manaus - Brazil ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Problems when trying to enter a new bug in Bugzilla
Am Dienstag, den 19.01.2010, 12:24 -0400 schrieb Anderson Lizardo: [sorry if this is not the correct channel for such reports, but in this case I obviously can't open a bug report (You can, it's just the bugmail which is not working.) the error mentions bugzi...@maemo.org, but I don't know if it is valid] In general feel free to try an address before assuming that it fails anyway. ;-) When I try to submit a new bug report, I get the following error (after pressing the submit button): undef error - Insecure dependency in exec while running with -T switch at /usr/share/perl5/Mail/Mailer/sendmail.pm line 22. ### Any known problems? Yes, see https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7854 andre -- Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Cannot get all indexes in Scratchbox doing an apt-get update
Hi, I was trying to do a simple apt-get update in my Scratchbox installation, since I had not done it after the release of PR 1.1, but I'm getting this error: http://pastebin.ca/1757618 It doesn't look like the same DNS problem, because I'm not getting errors with all repositories, but only with the one containing Sources. Any idea about hot I could fix this? Thanks for your help! -- Andrea Grandi email: a.grandi [AT] gmail [DOT] com website: http://www.andreagrandi.it PGP Key: http://www.andreagrandi.it/pgp_key.asc ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: How to destroy your community
As maemo transitions to a much larger server farm, there have been hiccups. The site has been slow, but has recently gotten significantly faster, in certain parts. Tero is right though, you just haven't been here long enough to have a reliable sample of uptime vs. downtime with regards to maemo.org. I would disagree; a major hiccup is a hour of down time, a hiccup is the service being restarted.A disaster is this ongoing weekend, and still having several primary services broken and/or totally non-functional. You just don't run a ISP service where you can't fix things in a timely fashion. I have been here for quite a while; and servers just have not been really reliable for the most part (growth can do that -- but I think the warning signs about this ISP should have occurred when it took until late Dec/early Jan to provision the equipment when I believe it was on the Sprint task in Oct); I've also had to ping several people to get things kicked to make them start working again. Nokia/Maemo != Reliability I understand Tero and others have been working hard; but this move is still is a complete fail in how to move properly. My guess is the initial planning wasn't done properly or due diligence with the new isp wasn't done -- I can't think of a good excuse for this weekend with any decent isp host. I could have easily provisioned several servers and got them all setup, communicating and running with either of my own personal projects or my companies fairly complex sites and had them fully functional in under an hour. I just don't understand; Autobuilder, Repositories, Mailing Lists all still being broken several days after the move. 10) Silence. Don't answer queries, don't say anything. A company which masters this technique may not need any of the others; it is the most effective community destroyer of them all. Here is what I would like to know, since this has been a fiasco: 1. What servers do we have? Type, what do they each do? (i.e. 1 - HP 3080 2Ghz 8GB, 100GBHD, - handles Autobuilder, Community Mailling Lists) 2. What is the approx cost that Nokia is funding for this. 3. Who has access to them. This info would be great to drop in a wiki page. I might be a small fry, but I personally deal with two distinct webfarms for a couple high availability web sites. I'm sure their our others who have even more experience than I do; together we might be able to help make sure the infrastructure is sound. You do get many things done, but your communication style isn't polite. I do understand that controversy can bring about change, but it can also polarize situations. Ooops! No silence here! I guess that disproves point 10. :-) (http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/ -- More non-silence.) Actually I don't consider jaaksi a place of contact or even someone reliably involved community wise with Maemo. His blog posts are for the most part marketing and imho pointless. You want contact with Nokia, Quim is the person to chat with, he is imho the man for any real contact with Nokia. And he does get things done reliably to the best of his ability! He is our critical link/lifeline to Nokia. There are a couple other Nokians, that you can chat with on the mailing lists and TMO for certain specific issues, but for most issues Quim can get you pointed in the right direction. (btw, Thanks Quim!) There is plenty of room for criticism, just try to be polite so that the tenor and tone remain positive enough for people to get work done and not get distracted by pejorative attacks. I would agree be polite! Also don't dismiss the newer members (Not directed at you Jeremiah). Not only do they have fresh perspective; They see the site for how it is now which is what all the other new users of the n900 will see the site. They don't care about how it was during the Nokia 770 days. They care about how it is now! (I also care about now, I don't really care that you had to walk up hill both ways when the Nokia 770 was released G) For the end users they have seen: 1. Unreliable access to software 2. OVI store coming soon for months 3. The entire repositories down this weekend. 4. TMO unreliability For developers add: 1. Lots of Autobuilder issues 2. Garage Issues 3. Mailing list issues (Both Garage and these) 4. zip/gz issues 5. bugzilla lost data 6. SDK rootstraps replacement 7. Wiki Issues 8. DNS issues. These all are reflections not only on the community but on Nokia. The end user isn't going to know that Maemo is not Nokia. And in some cases these services are provided by Nokia. But for the purposes of perspective, it all just looks like Nokia hasn't a clue on how to run things. And if Nokia hasn't a clue, then why would I recommend the n900 to my friends. I think Jeff Moe has a very valid point, we need to take a hard look at what we can do to improve the situation now and in the future. We also probably need to figure out what we did wrong (
[maemo-devel] List emails subject prefix
Hello, I feel a little cheeky asking this when I've only just joined the list but I was wondering if anybody else thinks it is a good idea to have mails to this list (and the other maemo lists) prefix the subject line with the name of the list. This is a technique used on most other lists I subscribe to and can be done automatically by Mailman (using the subject prefix option in the list personality settings). It is a great help to those of us subscribed to several different lists that we access via different clients. I have manually set the subject of this post as an example. Any takers? Regards, Ed. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Reverting autobuilder to fremantle sdk maemo 5 update 1
On Tuesday 19 January 2010 16:02:47 Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote: Hack, hack, hack... Then someone will write app which will require libosso from 51-1 and we will hack to make it possible for users with older firmware to install it etc etc etc? So far Maemo apps often behave like not being tested (or had bugs at design phase) - this will just add new ones. That is the reason Nokia insist on using integrated releases, and not allowing updates to the components shipped in the release. That is a great strategy for reliability, testability and supportability. It is just bad for user behaviour, flexibility and openness. There are no right answers. All such discussions (and there are variants of them in every software development/QA/management interaction I have ever participated in) involve dificult trade-offs. Once the decisions are made we then want to come up with the best experience for the users. I just felt that if the update introduced some additional capabilities, which would actually work on the base release, it would be possible for the community to build and support them for users who had not upgraded. If that is not feasible then so be it. Graham ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-devel] List emails subject prefix
Dnia wtorek, 19 stycznia 2010 o 18:45:01 Edward Johns napisał(a): Hello, I feel a little cheeky asking this when I've only just joined the list but I was wondering if anybody else thinks it is a good idea to have mails to this list (and the other maemo lists) prefix the subject line with the name of the list. This is a technique used on most other lists I subscribe to and can be done automatically by Mailman (using the subject prefix option in the list personality settings). It is a great help to those of us subscribed to several different lists that we access via different clients. No, No, No! Get yourself proper email client which will sort your mail into folders. There is X-BeenThere: maemo-developers@maemo.org in each email from this ML. And yes - it was added by Mailman. Regards, -- JID: h...@jabber.org Website: http://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcinjuszkiewicz ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-devel] List emails subject prefix
Hi, On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 5:45 PM, Edward Johns ejdom...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, I feel a little cheeky asking this when I've only just joined the list but I was wondering if anybody else thinks it is a good idea to have mails to this list (and the other maemo lists) prefix the subject line with the name of the list. This is a technique used on most other lists I subscribe to and can be done automatically by Mailman (using the subject prefix option in the list personality settings). It is a great help to those of us subscribed to several different lists that we access via different clients. I have manually set the subject of this post as an example. Any takers? Seems good, but since you're using gmail, you can setup a to: filter and add label for each list with a different color, of course it only works if you read gmail mostly from the web (my case :)). Anyway your suggestion should be implemented. Best regards, -- Valério Valério http://www.valeriovalerio.org Regards, Ed. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-devel] List emails subject prefix
Am Dienstag, den 19.01.2010, 17:45 + schrieb Edward Johns: I feel a little cheeky asking this when I've only just joined the list but I was wondering if anybody else thinks it is a good idea to have mails to this list (and the other maemo lists) prefix the subject line with the name of the list. Considering limited screen estate on some mobile devices people around here are using I prefer to filter by specific header lines on the mailserver instead (as explained by Marcin already). andre -- Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Backwards compatibility broken PR1.1 SDK
On Jan 19, 2010, at 15:20, Michael Cronenworth wrote: The user will be told why they can't update their little fart app. We don't have fart apps in Maemo. You're thinking of the iPhone. /facetiousness Jeremiah ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-devel] List emails subject prefix
On Jan 19, 2010, at 1:12 PM, Andre Klapper wrote: Am Dienstag, den 19.01.2010, 17:45 + schrieb Edward Johns: I feel a little cheeky asking this when I've only just joined the list but I was wondering if anybody else thinks it is a good idea to have mails to this list (and the other maemo lists) prefix the subject line with the name of the list. Considering limited screen estate on some mobile devices people around here are using I prefer to filter by specific header lines on the mailserver instead (as explained by Marcin already). Bingo. Modest is already character-limited enough for subject lines without adding another 13 or more characters to ever email. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [md] List emails subject prefix
While some have raised the concern about how long a subject line different email clients handle, I still think this is a good idea, although in deference to those concerned about the messag line length, [md] works nicely from my perspective. I like to do quick visual checkes of emails subjects in addition to having the option of using other types of filters. Aldon -Original Message- From: maemo-developers-boun...@maemo.org [mailto:maemo-developers-boun...@maemo.org]on Behalf Of Edward Johns Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:45 PM To: maemo-developers@maemo.org Subject: [maemo-devel] List emails subject prefix Hello, I feel a little cheeky asking this when I've only just joined the list but I was wondering if anybody else thinks it is a good idea to have mails to this list (and the other maemo lists) prefix the subject line with the name of the list. This is a technique used on most other lists I subscribe to and can be done automatically by Mailman (using the subject prefix option in the list personality settings). It is a great help to those of us subscribed to several different lists that we access via different clients. I have manually set the subject of this post as an example. Any takers? Regards, Ed. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [maemo-devel] List emails subject prefix
Good idea, let's try to restrict the development community to only people that have 'proper email clients' snip Get yourself proper email client which will sort your mail into folders. There is X-BeenThere: maemo-developers@maemo.org in each email from this ML. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Extras-devel doesn't update?
Hi, i released maep 1.3 today and according to all logs and http://maemo.org/packages/view/maep/ it should have arrived in extras-devel by now. Still my n900 doesn't see it Why? Till ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-devel] List emails subject prefix
Edward Johns wrote: Hello, I feel a little cheeky asking this when I've only just joined the list but I was wondering if anybody else thinks it is a good idea to have mails to this list (and the other maemo lists) prefix the subject line with the name of the list. I have a 17 LCD and still I don't like the extra prefixes taking up the space from the actual subject. I believe the Maemo mailing list used to have the flag there up to this point: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2007-February/008406.html -- Tuomas ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [maemo-devel] List emails subject prefix
...plus to people that answer below their quote, as I'm part of the minority that starts reading an email at the top./irony (But I know that Modest ignores this too currently.) andre Am Dienstag, den 19.01.2010, 14:07 -0500 schrieb Aldon Hynes: Good idea, let's try to restrict the development community to only people that have 'proper email clients' snip Get yourself proper email client which will sort your mail into folders. There is X-BeenThere: maemo-developers@maemo.org in each email from this ML. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers -- Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-devel] List emails subject prefix
Sorry Aldon, I must apologise. I was amazed at that response at first but having read it back I noted the sarcasm. Obviously a little too subtle for me in my sleep deprived state! Sorry for the over reaction. 2010/1/19 Edward Johns ejdom...@gmail.com: 2010/1/19 Aldon Hynes aldon.hy...@orient-lodge.com: Good idea, let's try to restrict the development community to only people that have 'proper email clients' snip Consider yourself restricted. I've been a member of several high profile foss developer communities and this is the worse welcome I've ever been given. Hopefully I will get a chance to return to this forum when it is a little more mature. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [maemo-devel] List emails subject prefix
Edward, Thanks for the apology. I was taken aback by your initial response and was trying to figure out how best to respond. I did realize that my sarcasm might have been missed. I have been very concerned about a general tenor of this list. It seems like some are suggesting that if you haven't been on the list long enough, if you don't use the right email client, and several other comments I've heard recently, then you aren't good enough to be on this list. Instead, we need to be welcoming old and new, people using pine, elm, modest, Outlook or whatever email client. Likewise, I would like to see more discussion about how we can all work together to make sure that this list, the wiki, the repositories, and other tools are the best possible so that we can get as many developers working together to make great apps for Maemo. I appreciate your concern for this list and your suggestion on something that would make it more helpful to some users. Aldon http://www.orient-lodge.com -Original Message- From: eml...@gmail.com [mailto:eml...@gmail.com]on Behalf Of Edward Johns Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 4:26 PM To: maemo-developers@maemo.org Cc: aldon.hy...@orient-lodge.com Subject: Re: [maemo-devel] List emails subject prefix Sorry Aldon, I must apologise. I was amazed at that response at first but having read it back I noted the sarcasm. Obviously a little too subtle for me in my sleep deprived state! Sorry for the over reaction. 2010/1/19 Edward Johns ejdom...@gmail.com: 2010/1/19 Aldon Hynes aldon.hy...@orient-lodge.com: Good idea, let's try to restrict the development community to only people that have 'proper email clients' snip Consider yourself restricted. I've been a member of several high profile foss developer communities and this is the worse welcome I've ever been given. Hopefully I will get a chance to return to this forum when it is a little more mature. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Cannot get all indexes in Scratchbox doing an apt-get update
On Tuesday 19 January 2010 13:41:08 Andrea Grandi wrote: Hi, I was trying to do a simple apt-get update in my Scratchbox installation, since I had not done it after the release of PR 1.1, but I'm getting this error: http://pastebin.ca/1757618 It doesn't look like the same DNS problem, because I'm not getting errors with all repositories, but only with the one containing Sources. Any idea about hot I could fix this? There was a problem with akamai. Apparently it was flushed and working now. See these logs and search for Will take around 10 minutes for it to flush still. for some context: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-01-19.log.html -Jeff Moe http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Jebba ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Reverting autobuilder to fremantle sdk maemo 5 update 1
On Tuesday 19 January 2010 12:29:31 Niels Breet wrote: On Tue, 2010-01-19 at 14:25 +0100, Niels Breet wrote: To prevent issues with backwards compatibility for applications in fremantle extras-devel, we're going to revert the autobuilder to the previous sdk repository. And this breaks applications trying to use new packages, like sharing-dialog-dev Yes it does. This has also negative sides, that is why doing things like this is a hard decision. More applications are not using the new features than the other way around. Work and discussions are going on to have this sorted out for PR1.2. Where are these discussions taking place? ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Programmatically showing the desktop in Fremantle
2010/1/18 Kimmo Hämäläinen kimmo.hamalai...@nokia.com: On Mon, 2010-01-18 at 12:10 +0100, Hamalainen Kimmo (Nokia-D/Helsinki) wrote: If you want the switcher to ignore your application, please try using _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_PAGER. See Sorry, I meant _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR... If I understand correctly (couldn't get it to work), the effect will be that the application will just not be in the task navigator view, but pressing the task switcher icon (or sending exit_app_view) or closing the application will still lead to the task navigator view and not to the home view. Yet, I found that the code suggested in [1] does what I wanted in Fremantle. That is, sending _NET_SHOWING_DESKTOP with data 1 to the root window from the application, causes the desktop home view to show (at least in scratchbox - didn't try on a device), without showing the task navigator view (even if other applications are running). The problem is that if the status menu item that launched the application was used from the status bar on top of another application window (and not from the home view) the XEvent will still get to the home desktop view rather than back to the other (original) application view. Given that the user still might not get back to where they came from, and the recommendation against messing with the desktop state. I might just keep using exit_app_view (from where the user is one click away from the home view or another application view). Thanks, -obb [1] - http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-software-2/how-to-show-desktop-in-xfce4-601161/#post2967109 ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Finger-Friendly Entry Completion/ComboboxEntry
Thank you for taking the time to respond. I'm familiar with the new Fremantle widgets, but none (I believe) are suitable for implementation of user entry history. The browser team probably also thought this, since they developed a custom widget for exactly this purpose. Text entry on a mobile device is always a difficult thing, so any way a program can ease this via history is an important feature. I've had many users ask for implementation of a browser-like history in my application and am trying to satisfy this seemingly popular request. Unfortunetely, as you allude to, there doesn't seem to be a platform-wide system in place for this. If anyone knows how to implement a browser-like entry history, then I'd be very eager to hear...as long as it can be written in Python and isn't too complicated ;) Cheers! On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 5:00 AM, Claudio Saavedra csaave...@igalia.comwrote: El lun, 18-01-2010 a las 20:30 -0500, Brent Chiodo escribió: I have to give a bump to this. Does anyone know the secret behind the browser URL bar? Is the code even posted somewhere (Not sure, is that part of the browser open source?). There is no such combobox/comboboxentry in the toolkit. What you see in the browser is something they implemented themselves. As far as I know, the code is not open. The reason why you don't have such a widget available is that, for Maemo 5, we support and encourage the usage of the new Fremantle widgets. For any use case where a combobox is necessary, you have HildonPickerButton. If a combobox with entry is necessary, you have HildonPickerButton + HildonTouchSelectorEntry. Claudio ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers -- Best Regards, Brent Chiodo ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-devel] List emails subject prefix
I have been very concerned about a general tenor of this list. It seems like some are suggesting that if you haven't been on the list long enough, if you don't use the right email client, and several other comments I've heard recently, then you aren't good enough to be on this list. Instead, we need to be welcoming old and new, people using pine, elm, modest, Outlook or whatever email client. While I know that you're referring to other threads as well, and while the responses to Edward's post weren't all as kind or thoughtful as they could have been, it should be noted that subject prefixes are a well-known hot-button topic (on many lists, not just this one). Furthermore, they've been discussed and rejected here: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/maemo/developers/30148#30148 http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/maemo/developers/16800#16800 Among the litany of good reasons against subject tagging [1], we have the added reason that screen real-estate on mobile devices is precious and long subject-lines are especially problematic for the many individuals reading this list on small-screened maemo-devices. While we as a community can always aim to improve our tone and focus energies better, I don't think this was a case of jump on the newcomer. It's a FAQ for mailing list administration in general, an AQ for the maemo-* lists, and an issue both sides tend to feel strongly about. With the tremendous influx of new users right now, there are bound to be some growing pains. That's not an excuse for bad-behavior, we still need to police ourselves, but it's worth keeping in mind. S... welcome aboard Edward. Thanks for your suggestion, please consider checking the archives before posting next time because this was discussed already. Cheers, Mike Lococo [1] http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/qralston/writing/tagging-harmful/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Reverting autobuilder to fremantle sdk maemo 5 update 1
On 01/19/2010 04:15 PM, Jeff Moe wrote: Where are these discussions taking place? Here.[1] [1] http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2010-January/023781.html ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-devel] List emails subject prefix
Mike, I think Edward is making a valid point. The archived email threads you included in your response are more than 2 years old. You said yourself that many new people are joining and have joined the mailing list recently (tremendous influx of new users). It is entirely possible that the general opinion of the participants has changed. Personally I like email subject prefixes. But I can live without them as well, no biggie. What comes to the arguments for not adding a subject header prefix in the 7-year-old document you pointed to - those are of varying quality. Especially I disagree with the statements Tagging is no longer needed for filtering (maybe so, but it fits the workflow of certain people), Coddling the Lazy, Penalizing the Conscientious (here the author is making an incorrect assumption that people do not set up their email clients to filter their emails only because of laziness - again workflow/working style thing) and Tagging Discourages Discussion (the inflammatory responses leading to flamewars are discouraging people from discussing on these mailing lists - I for one am now concerned what kind of responses I will get to this message..). Additionally I do not buy the wasting space argument but that is very much personal opinion based on my preference of using laptop much more than my handheld device for reading these emails and I understand that long prefixes could create problems when reading emails on a small screen device (such as N900) Hartti a newcomer on these lists as well Suomela On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Mike Lococo mikeloc...@gmail.com wrote: I have been very concerned about a general tenor of this list. It seems like some are suggesting that if you haven't been on the list long enough, if you don't use the right email client, and several other comments I've heard recently, then you aren't good enough to be on this list. Instead, we need to be welcoming old and new, people using pine, elm, modest, Outlook or whatever email client. While I know that you're referring to other threads as well, and while the responses to Edward's post weren't all as kind or thoughtful as they could have been, it should be noted that subject prefixes are a well-known hot-button topic (on many lists, not just this one). Furthermore, they've been discussed and rejected here: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/maemo/developers/30148#30148 http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/maemo/developers/16800#16800 Among the litany of good reasons against subject tagging [1], we have the added reason that screen real-estate on mobile devices is precious and long subject-lines are especially problematic for the many individuals reading this list on small-screened maemo-devices. While we as a community can always aim to improve our tone and focus energies better, I don't think this was a case of jump on the newcomer. It's a FAQ for mailing list administration in general, an AQ for the maemo-* lists, and an issue both sides tend to feel strongly about. With the tremendous influx of new users right now, there are bound to be some growing pains. That's not an excuse for bad-behavior, we still need to police ourselves, but it's worth keeping in mind. S... welcome aboard Edward. Thanks for your suggestion, please consider checking the archives before posting next time because this was discussed already. Cheers, Mike Lococo [1] http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/qralston/writing/tagging-harmful/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-devel] List emails subject prefix
On Jan 19, 2010, at 9:46 PM, Hartti Suomela wrote: Additionally I do not buy the wasting space argument but that is very much personal opinion based on my preference of using laptop much more than my handheld device for reading these emails and I understand that long prefixes could create problems when reading emails on a small screen device (such as N900) If you don't buy it, you evidently don't do much email reading on any Maemo devices. :) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How to destroy your community
2010/1/19 Nathan Anderson nat...@andersonsplace.net I would agree be polite! Also don't dismiss the newer members (Not directed at you Jeremiah). IMO the new members should have some common sense about what they write. It is the tone that is the poison, not the point. First there was hell lot of bad tone at tmo, and now I hope this was the first and the last one to mailing lists. If you want to suggest somebody to change something, do you start with Yo, fucker! you are a piece of shit! I think you lack . and you should ?(example aggravated) Why did the conversation opener only picked the gems, aka things that apply to maemo community? Why not picking couple points that doesn't apply at all with those? All negative is a good way to mess things up and make the repicient to ignore the point and everything else. It is basic psychology and regognised by foremen at least in places I've worked. Ossipena / Timo ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
