Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Michael Karadjis via Marxism]

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Again let me paraphrase Chris:

The US has been bombing Syrian and Iraqi cities (and countless others 
around the world for years).


The YPG/SDF are supported systematically by the US (to a far more 
massive and systematic degree than any revels have ever been "supported" 
by Turkey or Saudis (let alone today!), most notably, by the very same 
US air force that does the bombing.


I think it is reasonable to assume that if such groups came to power and 
had control of an air force they would be prepared to bomb cities that 
rebelled against their rule.


-Original Message- 
From: Chris Slee via Marxism


Turkey has been bombing Kurdish cities.

Saudi Arabia has been bombing Yemeni cities.

Some Syrian rebel groups are supported by Turkey and/or Saudi Arabia.  I 
think it is reasonable to assume that if such groups came to power and 
had control of an air force they would be prepared to bomb cities that 
rebelled against their rule.



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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 3/18/17 8:27 PM, John Obrien via Marxism wrote:



Are you stating - that the U. S.military - could be of actual help?


You need to brush up on the use of irony. You might want to start with 
your fellow Irishman Jonathan Swift, especially since St. Patrick's Day 
was only yesterday.

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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Marx Mail00 via Marxism]

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> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:14 PM, John Obrien via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> the jihadists in Syria - are not for tolerance but seek power and control - 
> motivated not by progressive political views - but by reactionary religious 
> views.

Quibbles about words like “progressive” and “reactionary” aside, this statement 
by Obrien is true *by definition* and therefore vacuous: the predicate 
("seeking power and control"; "motivated by religious views") is implied by the 
choice of the subject of the sentence ("jihadists”).

The fact that Obrien believes the subject “jihadists” truthfully represents all 
those fighting Assad says everything one needs to know about his ignorance of, 
and bias regarding, the conflict in Syria.
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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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Hi all,

Can someone summarize the dispute for those of us who are less
knowledgeable about Syria and Rojava? Who are these factions, what do they
stand for, and what exactly is at stake in this UN report?

- Amith

On Sat, Mar 18, 2017 at 8:18 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> On 3/18/17 8:14 PM, John Obrien wrote:
>
>> I never viewed the U. S. government military - as something positive- to
>> be inflicted on the Arab masses,
>>
>
>
> Of course not. The Syrians and Russians you implicitly support needed no
> help.
>
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 3/18/17 8:14 PM, John Obrien wrote:

I never viewed the U. S. government military - as something positive- to
be inflicted on the Arab masses,



Of course not. The Syrians and Russians you implicitly support needed no 
help.



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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Unlike Christopher Hitchens  -  and the moderator

I never viewed the U. S. government military - as something positive- to be 
inflicted on the Arab masses,

including in Syria.


And I never identified religious reactionaries - as revolutionaries - as has 
been described on this Marxist site.


I believe that Bashir al-Assad is a proclaimed Muslim.  Unlike the Muslim 
worker friends that I work with

at my wage job and interact with in the working class neighborhood that I 
reside in - the jihadists in Syria -

are not for tolerance but seek power and control - motivated not by progressive 
political views - but by

reactionary religious views.






On 3/18/17 7:48 PM, John Obrien via Marxism wrote:
>
> The moderator is unaware of 9/11 and the Islamic terrorist use of civilian 
> planes on buildings?


Christopher Hitchens couldn't have put it 
better.
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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 3/18/17 7:48 PM, John Obrien via Marxism wrote:


The moderator is unaware of 9/11 and the Islamic terrorist use of civilian 
planes on buildings?



Christopher Hitchens couldn't have put it better.
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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[ioannis aposperites via Marxism]

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Devil has been burning sinners

Some scholars, like Faust, are supported by Devil.
I think it is reasonable to assume that if such scholars came to power 
and had control of hell they would be prepared to burn some sinners too.

 JA

On 18/03/2017 10:09 μμ, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote:


Turkey has been bombing Kurdish cities.

Saudi Arabia has been bombing Yemeni cities.

Some Syrian rebel groups are supported by Turkey and/or Saudi Arabia.  I think 
it is reasonable to assume that if such groups came to power and had control of 
an air force they would be prepared to bomb cities that rebelled against their 
rule.



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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 3/18/17 4:09 PM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote:

 I think it is reasonable to assume that if such groups came to power and had 
control of an air force they would be prepared to bomb cities that rebelled 
against their rule.


Except that the "jihadists" have never deployed artillery in the 
indiscriminate fashion that Assad has used his air force. When a single 
hospital in West Aleppo came under fire, there were ten thousand 
articles denouncing such inhumanity but not a single one about all the 
hospitals that had been leveled to the ground in East Aleppo. If you 
have trouble grasping this, I suggest you read the Zionist press on 
Hamas's rocket attacks on Sderot. As is almost universally the case, the 
"anti-imperialist" press can figure this out when it comes to Gaza but 
not Syria. Too bad that Chris Slee reflects this sort of bad faith.

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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Dennis Brasky via Marxism]

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How about this typical bit of Zionist projection - If the Palestinians had
the power, they would have ethnically cleansed the Jews.

On Sat, Mar 18, 2017 at 12:57 AM, Michael Karadjis via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>
>
> On 3/17/17 6:57 AM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote:
>
>> I agree with Michael that the Assad regime has killed more people
>> than the rebels.  A major reason for this is that the regime has a
>> lot of high-tech weapons that the rebels don't have.  If they had
>> similar weapons they might be doing similar things.
>>
>
> Chris, are you being serious using an argument like that? I expected
> better. If that is your argument, I just wonder when it doesn't apply.
> Surely the difference in actual killing power you refer to might have
> something to do with the difference in actual power, and thus have some
> bearing on the very nature of the conflict? No? OK, then let's try this:
>
> I agree with Chris that the Turkish regime has killed more people
>> than the PKK.  A major reason for this is that the regime has a
>> lot of high-tech weapons that the PKK doesn't have.  If they had
>> similar weapons they might be doing similar things.
>>
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Michael Karadjis via Marxism]

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On 3/17/17 6:57 AM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote:

I agree with Michael that the Assad regime has killed more people
than the rebels.  A major reason for this is that the regime has a
lot of high-tech weapons that the rebels don't have.  If they had
similar weapons they might be doing similar things.


Chris, are you being serious using an argument like that? I expected 
better. If that is your argument, I just wonder when it doesn't apply. 
Surely the difference in actual killing power you refer to might have 
something to do with the difference in actual power, and thus have some 
bearing on the very nature of the conflict? No? OK, then let's try this:



I agree with Chris that the Turkish regime has killed more people
than the PKK.  A major reason for this is that the regime has a
lot of high-tech weapons that the PKK doesn't have.  If they had
similar weapons they might be doing similar things.



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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 3/17/17 7:32 PM, Nick Fredman via Marxism wrote:


Louis claims relations with the regime are a more fundamental question. But
there's also a clear pattern by some of exaggerating and distorting the
PYD-led movement's limited, ad hoc and frequently broken arrangements,


I am quoting the PYD leader Saleh Muslim. This guy is writing Rania 
Khalek type bullshit. I am all for Rojova but I am opposed to lying 
about sarin gas, etc.

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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Nick Fredman via Marxism]

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I started this thread specifically to point to the UN commission's
conclusion here
http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/SY/A_HRC_34_CRP.3_E.docx that
there was no evidence that the PYD-led movement had engaged in ethnic
cleansing. This conclusion reinforces the rebuttals made by a Syrian
National Coalition investigation team and the Syrian Observatory for Human
Rights in 2015 that I've previously cited. Countering this charge isn't an
irrelevant strawperson argument: The charge was widely spread by mainstream
media and some leftists, with the clear intention to represent the movement
as having the same sectarian and chauvinist politics as the regime and more
reactionary rebels.

Human rights might not be the main issue, and irregular forces simply can't
operate the way regular forces are meant to by international law. But the
extent to which political and military forces respect human rights within
the constraints placed on them — and not just possibly unintended killing
of civilians but also political repression and arbitrary arrest, torture,
execution etc — are one indication of how progressive they are and would be
if they held more power.

The idea that the abuses documented in this report by the PYD-led movement
and the rebels are comparable is laughable. The former is accused by not
looking after everyone properly it moves for military reasons, of
conscription — without mentioning the YPG/J are volunteer forces and
conscripts are strictly adults who only serve in the civil defence HXP —
and the abuse of one young man who refused conscription. Rebels — with the
worst being Jabhat Fatah al-Sham but others implicated as well — are
accused of widespread indiscriminate attacks on civilians, of conscription
of child soldiers, of widespread summary execution of prisoners, and both
JFS and Jund al-Sham are accused of setting up sharia courts in Idlib that
regularly dispense arbitrary imprisonment, torture and execution. E.g. in
the period of this report, Liwa al-Aqsa executed 128 prisoners in one
brutal job lot, and JFS stoned to death a women for adultery in Heish
village in Idlib, and shot the man allegedly involved. Let's let the
stoning to death of a woman and the shooting of a man for adultery sink in
for a minute. Some revolution.

It's true regarding chlorine weapons I misread this report while
concurrently reading an earlier Amnesty report on Sheikh Masqod, and this
report makes clear they found chlorine in the period under review only used
by the regime (as Chris notes this Amnesty report had more serious evidence
of chlorine use by rebels that Mike claims).

Louis claims relations with the regime are a more fundamental question. But
there's also a clear pattern by some of exaggerating and distorting the
PYD-led movement's limited, ad hoc and frequently broken arrangements,
accompanied by frequent assertions by both sides of their incompatibility
of aims and regular fighting (Hawzhin Azeez  says on Facebook fighting
between the regime and SDF forces is happening in Efrin right now). Louis
for example once asserted that Assad's claim to have "documents" to prove
his arming of and overall alliance with the PYD-movement, was proof of this
alliance. A strange person to place such trust in and such documents have
of course never appeared.

I for one now have a hectic weekend of domestic labour and family
activities, so it's over and out from me.

On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 11:18 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> On 3/15/17 11:01 PM, Nick Fredman via Marxism wrote:
>
>> I've criticised Roy Gutman and
>> called his Nation articles rubbish not just because he seems to be a
>> cruise
>> missile liberal who's a shill for Erdogan, but also because at least two
>> of
>> his sources have complained about his distortion of their words, because
>> this has also happened in his previous work, because he leaves crucial
>> facts out, because claims made by his anonymous sources are often absurd
>> and/or completely contradicted by other evidence, etc.
>>
>
> Frankly, human rights abuses are not uppermost on my mind in a situation
> where violence has become so generalized. There were human rights abuses by
> Sandinista soldiers against Miskitos, while the Red Army was positively
> barbaric as it swept westward against Hitler in 1945,
>
> 

Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 3/17/17 6:57 AM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote:

I agree with Michael that the Assad regime has killed more people
than the rebels.  A major reason for this is that the regime has a
lot of high-tech weapons that the rebels don't have.  If they had
similar weapons they might be doing similar things.


Pure reactionary gibberish.


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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Chris Slee via Marxism]

utah.edu> on behalf of Michael 
Karadjis via Marxism <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>
Sent: Friday, 17 March 2017 1:14 AM
To: Chris Slee
Subject: Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic 
cleansing charges

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---Original Message-
From: Louis Proyect via Marxism

> Frankly, human rights abuses are not uppermost on my mind in a
> situation
where violence has become so generalized. There were human rights abuses
by Sandinista soldiers against Miskitos, while the Red Army was
positively barbaric as it swept westward against Hitler in 1945 ...
one can not be exactly sure what happens on the battlefield in the fog
of war

Exactly. On the basis of what we know about the big picture, however, we
can distinguish two sides in terms of the sheer level of human rights
abuse:

1. The Assad regime, responsible for some 95% of all killing in Syria,
and even higher if we talking specifics such as torturing to death etc;
and, at the same level in terms of the totalitarian nature of its
barbarity, the Islamic State, though in terms of quantity only a midget
in comparison with the regime.

2. All those forces fighting both, in which category I include the FSA,
the Islamist brigades, the YPG/SDF, and, perhaps controversially for
some, Nusra/JFS. All commit a certain level of human rights abuse, as
would be expected in such a barbaric battlefield against such violently
terroristic regimes, in the same way as does Hamas against a similarly
all-encompassing violent oppressor in the Zionist regime; and the list
could go on.

Nick on the other hand is doing great sleight of the hand stuff when,
responding to my point that the report clears the YPG/SDF of
*systematic* ethnic cleansing but does not clear it of various crimes,
he says I am "keen to imply this is of a piece with the abuses by other
forces", and Nick describes these "other forces" as "both the regime and
some rebels", ie, making Nick keen to imply the crimes of "some rebels"
are "of a piece" with the regime! He does this by talking of "the
numerous instances of torture, summary execution, bombing of civilians
including with chlorine and cluster bombs etc", by both!

Of course there was no use of "chlorine or cluster bombs" by any rebels
in this report (and the entirely false accusation in a previous Amnesty
report that chlorine was sued against Sheikh Maqsud was based on one
photo with some yellow dye smudged on it), whereas they are used on a
massive scale by the regime, alongside napalm, white phosphorus, vacuum
bombs, barrel bobs, bunker busters,  ballistic missiles etc, yet Nick
seeks to lump the rebels together with this regime. The "numerous
instances" of torture in this report by "some rebels" included, just as
with the YPG, *one* instance, allegedly in Aleppo of some one who tried
to flee west. But Nick lumps this together with the regime which has
been accused by the UN of torturing people to death in its dungeons at a
level which amounts to "extermination," and there is copious evidence of
at least tens of thousands tortured to death. Don't you think the *one*
case of rebel torture is more "of a piece" with the one case of YPG
torture?As for Nick's "summary executions", well wow! Here the report
fucks up royally, and perhaps Nick can be excused for not reading the
fine print, because the huge case of "summary execution" by "rebels" in
this report was none other than the horrific slaughter of 128 *FSA
captives* by the ISIS-aligned bandit group Liwa al-Aqsa, which the
report mistakenly puts in under rebel crimes rather than ISIS crimes
even though rebels were the victims.

So yes Nick I do put the crime of various rebel groups, including the
YPG, on a par. Especially given *context* as you are keen to discuss.
Nick notes that "The context of a militia in a poor, blockaded statelet
should be taken into account" without seeing the apparent irony of
shoving together rebels and regime - as if the Rojava statelet, free of
regime bombing for the whole war, and under the permanent protection of
the US airforce, can be compared "context-wise" with the situation of
all the areas controlled by the rebels, al of which make Gaza look like
a picnic except at the most intense moments of Zionist genocidal terror
(the various 5-6 week "operations" which are akin the the last 6 years
in Syria). Yes the context of various poor blockaded statelets being
barrel-bombed into oblivion for years on end might be expected to
produce more human rights abuse than in the r

Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Michael Karadjis via Marxism]

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---Original Message- 
From: Louis Proyect via Marxism


Frankly, human rights abuses are not uppermost on my mind in a 
situation

where violence has become so generalized. There were human rights abuses
by Sandinista soldiers against Miskitos, while the Red Army was
positively barbaric as it swept westward against Hitler in 1945 ...
one can not be exactly sure what happens on the battlefield in the fog 
of war


Exactly. On the basis of what we know about the big picture, however, we 
can distinguish two sides in terms of the sheer level of human rights 
abuse:


1. The Assad regime, responsible for some 95% of all killing in Syria, 
and even higher if we talking specifics such as torturing to death etc; 
and, at the same level in terms of the totalitarian nature of its 
barbarity, the Islamic State, though in terms of quantity only a midget 
in comparison with the regime.


2. All those forces fighting both, in which category I include the FSA, 
the Islamist brigades, the YPG/SDF, and, perhaps controversially for 
some, Nusra/JFS. All commit a certain level of human rights abuse, as 
would be expected in such a barbaric battlefield against such violently 
terroristic regimes, in the same way as does Hamas against a similarly 
all-encompassing violent oppressor in the Zionist regime; and the list 
could go on.


Nick on the other hand is doing great sleight of the hand stuff when, 
responding to my point that the report clears the YPG/SDF of 
*systematic* ethnic cleansing but does not clear it of various crimes, 
he says I am "keen to imply this is of a piece with the abuses by other 
forces", and Nick describes these "other forces" as "both the regime and 
some rebels", ie, making Nick keen to imply the crimes of "some rebels" 
are "of a piece" with the regime! He does this by talking of "the 
numerous instances of torture, summary execution, bombing of civilians 
including with chlorine and cluster bombs etc", by both!


Of course there was no use of "chlorine or cluster bombs" by any rebels 
in this report (and the entirely false accusation in a previous Amnesty 
report that chlorine was sued against Sheikh Maqsud was based on one 
photo with some yellow dye smudged on it), whereas they are used on a 
massive scale by the regime, alongside napalm, white phosphorus, vacuum 
bombs, barrel bobs, bunker busters,  ballistic missiles etc, yet Nick 
seeks to lump the rebels together with this regime. The "numerous 
instances" of torture in this report by "some rebels" included, just as 
with the YPG, *one* instance, allegedly in Aleppo of some one who tried 
to flee west. But Nick lumps this together with the regime which has 
been accused by the UN of torturing people to death in its dungeons at a 
level which amounts to "extermination," and there is copious evidence of 
at least tens of thousands tortured to death. Don't you think the *one* 
case of rebel torture is more "of a piece" with the one case of YPG 
torture?As for Nick's "summary executions", well wow! Here the report 
fucks up royally, and perhaps Nick can be excused for not reading the 
fine print, because the huge case of "summary execution" by "rebels" in 
this report was none other than the horrific slaughter of 128 *FSA 
captives* by the ISIS-aligned bandit group Liwa al-Aqsa, which the 
report mistakenly puts in under rebel crimes rather than ISIS crimes 
even though rebels were the victims.


So yes Nick I do put the crime of various rebel groups, including the 
YPG, on a par. Especially given *context* as you are keen to discuss. 
Nick notes that "The context of a militia in a poor, blockaded statelet 
should be taken into account" without seeing the apparent irony of 
shoving together rebels and regime - as if the Rojava statelet, free of 
regime bombing for the whole war, and under the permanent protection of 
the US airforce, can be compared "context-wise" with the situation of 
all the areas controlled by the rebels, al of which make Gaza look like 
a picnic except at the most intense moments of Zionist genocidal terror 
(the various 5-6 week "operations" which are akin the the last 6 years 
in Syria). Yes the context of various poor blockaded statelets being 
barrel-bombed into oblivion for years on end might be expected to 
produce more human rights abuse than in the relative calm and peaceful 
conditions in Rojava. Yet not much more according to the report.


Actually the worst rebel abuses are the firing of "indirect fire 
artillery systems, including improvised, locally manufactured “Omar” 
rockets" at targets in Assad-controlled cities (eg West Aleppo etc) 
which kill civilians. While virtually all 

Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 3/15/17 11:01 PM, Nick Fredman via Marxism wrote:

I've criticised Roy Gutman and
called his Nation articles rubbish not just because he seems to be a cruise
missile liberal who's a shill for Erdogan, but also because at least two of
his sources have complained about his distortion of their words, because
this has also happened in his previous work, because he leaves crucial
facts out, because claims made by his anonymous sources are often absurd
and/or completely contradicted by other evidence, etc.


Frankly, human rights abuses are not uppermost on my mind in a situation 
where violence has become so generalized. There were human rights abuses 
by Sandinista soldiers against Miskitos, while the Red Army was 
positively barbaric as it swept westward against Hitler in 1945,


My issue with the PYD is the deals it cut with Assad. While one can not 
be exactly sure what happens on the battlefield in the fog of war, we do 
know exactly what words came out of Saleh Muslim's mouth: Assad was 
being framed for using sarin gas in Ghouta; if he was overthrown, there 
would be mass murder against Christians and Alawites, etc.


Disgusting.
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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Nick Fredman via Marxism]

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Mike is quite wrong in claiming that the not guilty verdict from the UN
commission only covers last 8 months. The narrative throughout the report
ranges over the past several years, and it explicitly states,

"Though allegations of 'ethnic cleansing' continued to be received during
the period under review, the Commission found no evidence to substantiate
claims that YPG or SDF forces *ever* targeted Arab communities on the basis
of ethnicity, nor that YPG cantonal authorities systematically sought to
change the demographic composition of territories under their control
through the commission of violations directed against any particular ethnic
group" (p. 21, emphasis added).

Regarding abuses by the YPG/J and SDF, the report details allegations
property damage and forced movement of people. The latter is impossible to
avoid in irregular war and report is clear that much if not all of it is
necessitated by landmine clearing and other military contingencies. The
context of a militia in a poor, blockaded statelet should be taken into
account when all displaced people and their property aren't looked after
properly or allowed to return when they'd prefer. Mike seems keen to imply
this is of a piece with the abuses by other forces. But the report presents
one single allegation of torture, c.f. the numerous instances of torture,
summary execution, bombing of civilians including with chlorine and cluster
bombs etc, by both the regime and some rebels. Proportionality and context
isn't the same thing as Mike's unnamed caricatures who allegedly think the
PYD-led movement is perfect and all rebels are head-choppers.

Mike isn't sure many people made the ethnic cleansing claim. After the
poorly substantiated claims in the 2015 Amnesty report, the charges were
uncritically all over the mainstream media, and on the left that I recall
were uncritically cited by Mick Armstrong at
https://redflag.org.au/node/5116, an article priased by Mike, and more
explicitly made by Socialist Alternative members on Facebook. And of course
luridly made if completely unsubstantiated by the Roy Gutman articles in
the apparently leftist Nation which Mike has approvingly cited.

Gutman's previous form as a cruise missile leftist (regarding Serbia) may
not be relevant to his current hackery for the Turkish state. But
completely irrelevant is Mike aspersions about the PYD-led movement's
tactical alliance with the US. What's relevant to the topic at hand is that
Gutman's has demonstrably lied about his sources and presented fantastical
and demonstrably false accounts of the innocence of the Turkish state and
its crony capitalist clients in Iraqi Kurdistan, of the 2012 insurrection
in Rojava and of the battle of Kobane and the 2014 battle for Sinjar. His
second article is particularly disgusting in presenting the heroic rescue
of 50,000 Yazidis in Sinjar in the most perfunctory way possible, and the
really about some sort of unjustified imperialistic incursion by the PKK.

"Turkey is not the only US ally at odds with the YPG. Iraq’s Kurdistan
Regional Government in late December threatened to use force if the PKK
didn’t withdraw from Sinjar in northern Iraq, which the KRG insists is in
its security sphere. (The PKK had moved into Sinjar in 2014 to fight off an
ISIS attack against the Yazidi population there.)"

https://www.thenation.com/article/americas-favorite-syrian-militia-rules-with-an-iron-fist/

If Mike this creep is a credible source, he's welcome to him.

On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 3:38 PM, Michael Karadjis 
wrote:

> The report says there is no evidence of a systematic policy of ethnic
> cleansing. I'm not too sure many people made that claim. The various
> reports, from a variety of sources (eg the anti-ISIS group 'Raqqa is Being
> Slaughtered Silently'), that show the YPG uprooted people, destroyed
> property, prevented return etc, are too many to be false, and in any case
> this report gives plenty of dirt on YPG actions (as it does on all
> players). Nick wants to show that it doesn't show the worst, which is true,
> but it does show that the YPG is not perfect, which should be considered by
> those who have romanticised this current to the point that they are the
> only "true revolutionaries", any allegation against them is just Turkish or
> ISUS slander, whereas every allegation against other rebels are undoubtedly
> true and proof that they are little more than a jihadist jungle.
>
> In addition, let's not forget that the report is only for the second half
> of 2016 and early 2017, whereas most of the worst allegations against YPG
> crimes were from 2014 through early 2016.
>
> Nick writes, in 

Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Michael Karadjis via Marxism]

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The report says there is no evidence of a systematic policy of ethnic 
cleansing. I'm not too sure many people made that claim. The various 
reports, from a variety of sources (eg the anti-ISIS group 'Raqqa is 
Being Slaughtered Silently'), that show the YPG uprooted people, 
destroyed property, prevented return etc, are too many to be false, and 
in any case this report gives plenty of dirt on YPG actions (as it does 
on all players). Nick wants to show that it doesn't show the worst, 
which is true, but it does show that the YPG is not perfect, which 
should be considered by those who have romanticised this current to the 
point that they are the only "true revolutionaries", any allegation 
against them is just Turkish or ISUS slander, whereas every allegation 
against other rebels are undoubtedly true and proof that they are little 
more than a jihadist jungle.


In addition, let's not forget that the report is only for the second 
half of 2016 and early 2017, whereas most of the worst allegations 
against YPG crimes were from 2014 through early 2016.


Nick writes, in relation to Roy Gutman, that "he seems to be a cruise 
missile liberal who's a shill for Erdogan." Not sure that the first and 
second parts of that sentence necessarily connect; I suppose it depends 
on concrete circumstances.  Does he advocate US send its air-force to 
bomb the Kurds on behalf of Erdogan? Not that I am aware of. But, for 
example, do "cruise missile leftists" not advocate things like US 
intervention, use of the US air-force to bomb countries, even killing 
significant numbers of civilians, the sending of hundreds of US special 
forces into countries to back forces they support, the setting up of US 
bases in foreign countries etc etc? Not sure that Gutman advocates all 
that. But is your definition affected by the fact that the US does all 
these things in Syria in support, almost solely, of the YPG/SDF? (and 
when not in support of the YPG/SDF, in support of Assad).


-Original Message- 
From: Nick Fredman via Marxism

Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 2:01 PM
To: Michael Karadjis
Subject: Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of 
ethnic cleansing charges


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Well too bad. I don't much stock at all in instant dismissal of evidence
because of the apparent predilections of the messenger, especially with
regard to Syria, about which it seems to be a particularly widespread
mechanism that allows people to stay in their comfortable bubble and not
even look at anything they know they won't like. It's fair enough that 
some
people's agenda make one suspicious about how objective their evidence 
is,
but it's a pretty weak argument to stop at that. You don't seem to be 
even
starting at that, unless you think of some agenda a particular UN 
official

has in ordering her minions to doctor the evidence about alleged YPG and
SDF war crimes. And that the SNC and SOHR, who've also rebutted the 
"ethnic
cleansing" claims, also have such an agenda. I've criticised Roy Gutman 
and
called his Nation articles rubbish not just because he seems to be a 
cruise
missile liberal who's a shill for Erdogan, but also because at least two 
of

his sources have complained about his distortion of their words, because
this has also happened in his previous work, because he leaves crucial
facts out, because claims made by his anonymous sources are often absurd
and/or completely contradicted by other evidence, etc.


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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Nick Fredman via Marxism]

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Well too bad. I don't much stock at all in instant dismissal of evidence
because of the apparent predilections of the messenger, especially with
regard to Syria, about which it seems to be a particularly widespread
mechanism that allows people to stay in their comfortable bubble and not
even look at anything they know they won't like. It's fair enough that some
people's agenda make one suspicious about how objective their evidence is,
but it's a pretty weak argument to stop at that. You don't seem to be even
starting at that, unless you think of some agenda a particular UN official
has in ordering her minions to doctor the evidence about alleged YPG and
SDF war crimes. And that the SNC and SOHR, who've also rebutted the "ethnic
cleansing" claims, also have such an agenda. I've criticised Roy Gutman and
called his Nation articles rubbish not just because he seems to be a cruise
missile liberal who's a shill for Erdogan, but also because at least two of
his sources have complained about his distortion of their words, because
this has also happened in his previous work, because he leaves crucial
facts out, because claims made by his anonymous sources are often absurd
and/or completely contradicted by other evidence, etc.

On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Louis Proyect  wrote:

> On 3/15/17 7:18 PM, Nick Fredman wrote:
>
>> rather than something the boss of the agency apparently said 4 years ago
>> about something else.
>>
>
>
> Yeah, well. I just don't trust someone like Carla del Ponte to oversee any
> report about Syria in the same way I wouldn't rely on the word of
> Islamophobe Max Abrahms, whose poll found that Syrian refugees blamed the
> rebels just as much as they blamed Assad (cited by Rania Khalek in an
> Alternet article).
>
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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 3/15/17 7:18 PM, Nick Fredman wrote:

rather than something the boss of the agency apparently said 4 years ago
about something else.



Yeah, well. I just don't trust someone like Carla del Ponte to oversee 
any report about Syria in the same way I wouldn't rely on the word of 
Islamophobe Max Abrahms, whose poll found that Syrian refugees blamed 
the rebels just as much as they blamed Assad (cited by Rania Khalek in 
an Alternet article).

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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Nick Fredman via Marxism]

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Look at the current report. It has plenty of details of bombing of
civilians, and chemical weapon and cluster bomb use by by the regime as
well as abuses by rebels. If you can cast doubts with concrete evidence on
its conclusions regarding the slurs against the YPG and SDF of ethnic
cleansing cast freely about by some leftists, including by people on this
list, that'd have relevance to this thread, rather than something the boss
of the agency apparently said 4 years ago about something else.


On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Louis Proyect  wrote:

> On 3/15/17 6:36 PM, Nick Fredman via Marxism wrote:
>
>> The report, covering the miserable situation accross Syria generally,
>> describes any displacement by YPG/J and SDF as due to military necessity,
>> particularly the mass clearance of IS' indiscriminately laid land mines.
>> It
>> notes some abuses that are very minor in the context of Syria but
>> explicitly rejects ethnic cleansing. By my reckoning these charges have
>> now
>> been rebutted by a Syria National Coalition team, the Syria Observatory
>> for
>> Human Rights and now the UN Commission for Syria. The UN report is
>> available as the latest report
>> http://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/IICISyria/Pages/Indepen
>> dentInternationalCommission.aspx
>>
>>
> http://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/IICISyria/Pages/CarlaDelPonte.aspx
>
> Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Syrian Arab Republic
>
> Carla Del Ponte (Switzerland)
>
> Ms. Del Ponte is a Swiss and international Prosecutor and diplomat. Within
> the United Nations System, she is a former Chief Prosecutor of two United
> Nations international criminal tribunals.
>
>
> ---
>
> Contrary to subsequent insinuations that she did not know what she was
> talking about, Del Ponte had chosen her words carefully. She had said that
> witness testimony made it appear that “some chemical weapons were used, in
> particular nerve gas.” And it appeared to have been used by the “opponents,
> by the rebels.” There is “no indication at all that the Syria government …
> used chemical weapons.”
>
> --Deepak Tripathi, Counterpunch May 13, 2013
>
> full: https://louisproyect.org/2013/08/31/carla-del-ponte-and-the-
> anti-imperialist-left-an-unprincipled-combination/
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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 3/15/17 6:36 PM, Nick Fredman via Marxism wrote:

The report, covering the miserable situation accross Syria generally,
describes any displacement by YPG/J and SDF as due to military necessity,
particularly the mass clearance of IS' indiscriminately laid land mines. It
notes some abuses that are very minor in the context of Syria but
explicitly rejects ethnic cleansing. By my reckoning these charges have now
been rebutted by a Syria National Coalition team, the Syria Observatory for
Human Rights and now the UN Commission for Syria. The UN report is
available as the latest report
http://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/IICISyria/Pages/IndependentInternationalCommission.aspx



http://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/IICISyria/Pages/CarlaDelPonte.aspx

Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Syrian Arab Republic

Carla Del Ponte (Switzerland)

Ms. Del Ponte is a Swiss and international Prosecutor and diplomat. 
Within the United Nations System, she is a former Chief Prosecutor of 
two United Nations international criminal tribunals.



---

Contrary to subsequent insinuations that she did not know what she was 
talking about, Del Ponte had chosen her words carefully. She had said 
that witness testimony made it appear that “some chemical weapons were 
used, in particular nerve gas.” And it appeared to have been used by the 
“opponents, by the rebels.” There is “no indication at all that the 
Syria government … used chemical weapons.”


--Deepak Tripathi, Counterpunch May 13, 2013

full: 
https://louisproyect.org/2013/08/31/carla-del-ponte-and-the-anti-imperialist-left-an-unprincipled-combination/




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