Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel, Solar Turn Cheese Guy’s Truck Green | Domestic Fuel
Just to be clear: Biodiesel is quieter than traditional fuel and only has organic emissions. Added lubricity may help a diesel engine run smoother/quieter. Organic emissions??? Let's hope not. Organic emissions from combustion would be unburned hydrocarbons . not desirable. Another alternative fuel addition The Cheese Guy wants to make is replacing propane with natural gas. Alternative fuel addition??? Propane is a specific gas refined from natural gas. Natural gas is a mix of gases that includes methane. Both produce the same emissions. Natural gas contains methane, a powerful greenhouse gas, and so, would be very harmful to the environment if released unburned. Propane is more energy-dense. Natural gas is generally cheaper per BTU. Which is preferable? If cost and availability aren't issues, propane gets the nod because it is less harmful to the environment if released unburned. Great to hear that The Cheese Guy is going green. Waste veg oil to biodiesel - fuel that emits lower levels of Carbon monoxide, oxides of nitrogen, sulfur, and fewer organics (unburned hydrocarbons); all good. The Carbon emitted as carbon dioxide when BD is burned is part of the current carbon cycle (good) vs petro diesel which emits carbon that has been sequestered for millions of years, overwhelming the current cycling process and thus contributing to global warming (bad). i.e. Biodiesel is an appropriate alternative to petro diesel for a number of very real reasons. + Waste veg oil is an appropriate feedstock for BD production. Appropriate technology. Economy of scale. Sort of a JtF mantra. Tom On Tue, 11 Nov 2014 14:59:40 -0500 Darryl McMahon dar...@econogics.com wrote: http://domesticfuel.com/2014/11/11/biodiesel-solar-turn-cheese-guys-truck-green/ Biodiesel, Solar Turn Cheese Guy’s Truck Green Posted on November 11, 2014 by John Davis A food truck entrepreneur known for his cheese is turning his vehicle – not his cheese – green using biodiesel and solar power. This news release posted on EIN News says Oklahoma-based Wil Braggs, aka “The Cheese Guy,” has started a Kickstarter crowdfunding campaign to help him buy a brand new gourmet green energy food truck called the Mean Green Purple Machine. This truck is intended to be powered by solar generated energy. Sunlight is free obviously and solar power is an effective, simple and often overlooked energy choice. The Cheese Guy is committed to implementing solar inverter technology in order to charge batteries with sunlight. A new food truck would enable The Cheese Guy to utilize solar power for the brand new Mean green purple machine. Another form of alternative energy is biodiesel which is formed from vegetable oil. Biodiesel is quieter than traditional fuel and only has organic emissions. The Cheese Guy intends to use biodiesel from recycled plant oil to run their engine and also their generator. This would be the first true biodiesel powered food truck. It is this groundbreaking innovation that has the ability to change the thinking of food truck owners everywhere. Another alternative fuel addition The Cheese Guy wants to make is replacing propane with natural gas. You can visit his Kickstarter campaign here. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/46661449/the-mean-green-purple-machine == http://www.einnews.com/pr_news/233812083/the-cheese-guy-reshaping-the-food-truck-industry The Cheese Guy, Reshaping the Food Truck Industry TULSA, OKLAHOMA, UNITED STATES, November 10, 2014 /EINPresswire.com/ -- Wil Braggs, who is otherwise known as The Cheese Guy, is an experienced food truck entrepreneur with over 10 years of kitchen and hospitality service experience. This experience includes cooking, serving, bartending and hosting various events. Currently Wil is focused on changing the perception of the food truck business. There is a reputation among the food truck industry that the trucks are dirty and wasteful. The Cheese Guy is dedicated to green initiatives. There are many ways in which The Cheese Guy plans to make his truck run more efficiently. This focus on green and renewable energy has the dual benefit of offering a lower cost means of business operation and being beneficial for the environment. These efficiency improvements include the building of a completely new truck which is based on renewable energy. This truck is intended to be powered by solar generated energy. Sunlight is free obviously and solar power is an effective, simple and often overlooked energy choice. The Cheese Guy is committed to implementing solar inverter technology in order to charge batteries with sunlight. A new food truck would enable The Cheese Guy to utilize solar power for the brand new Mean green purple machine. Another form of alternative energy is biodiesel which is formed from vegetable
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in Canada
Thanx for the info Joe. mAKES SENSE FINALLY Seth From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wed, March 30, 2011 1:42:02 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in Canada Yup your biodiesel has the ability to adsorb a little humidity but petroleum will not. When you use fuel air is drawn into the tank as it empties and that air always carries some moisture. When the temperature drops and condensation forms, it goes as liquid to the bottom of your petroleum tank. Always top up your tanks and try to burn only the top quarter in cold weather. I know this means carrying extra weight which means burning more fuel but you will have way less issues with water in fuel. This 'could' explain what happened but I still think you got off damn lucky there Seth!! Joe On 30/03/2011 12:52 PM, Fritz wrote: Hello Seth, i would call for ice in the line! Fritz ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20110403/cd3207ae/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in Canada
Hey Joe, I ran my truck on a blend all winter. Usually 60/40 (Bio/petrol) I did have a couple of filter issues, but I also had a very interesting success story. On Feb the 24th I was in Jasper AB doing sound and had ended up plugging my truck into a dead circuit. The outside temp that night was -35 WITHOUT the windchill. When I discovered that the vehicle had actually NOT been plugged in I figured I was screwed. One of my tanks had straight diesel in it (so called winter diesel at that.)That tank refused to do more than knock and sputter. Out of desperation I switched over to my 80% Bio-Diesel tank as a last resort. The vehicle immediately started to purr. I don't know what the hell I did right with that batch, but I was very happy!I thought at first that I had inadvertently switched the tanks wrong, but the comforting aroma of french fries confirmed that I was indeed running on Bio-Diesel in extreme temps Any ideas out there on how this could have happened? Seth From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 8:21:18 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in Canada The government gives a gift to diesel mechanics and fuel filter retailers! Based on my experience running biodiesel in the Canadian winter vehicles will need heated fuel filters in the least. Heavy hauling rigs crossing the nation will need a heated tank and line system and a switchover manifold like you use for SVO in order to be reliable crossing western Canada in winter. I remember my friend the mechanic who looks after the public transit buses when they mandated biodiesel added to the fleet's fuel in Guelph Ontario (which aint that cold folks by Canadian standards) he was bitching about how bad biodiesel was and on and on since they had to change filters so frequently. This is another boon to the service industry like making it illegal to run with snow tires on only the drive wheels. I wonder how many good fuel filters will be tossed out due to gel plugging before they figure out how to solve it? But this is a big country. Plenty of room to bury fuel filters and rubber eh?. I hope they only blend it in summer. Maybe they will. Joe On 21/03/2011 7:59 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Hi Darryl Thankyou. Yes, B2, that'll hide a multitude of sins. But if you multiply those amounts of oil by 50, does it make sense in terms of Canada's petro-diesel consumption? Or maybe he'll be making it for export (but to where?). How can CRFA make all those grand claims for B2? At that low level it's not much more than just a lubricant. All best Keith I don't know who the specific potential customer is, but I expect the demand is related to this announcement. http://www.greenfuels.org/uploads/media_centre/2011%20news%20releases/021011-en2percentregsannouncement.pdf f (or http://tinyurl.com/5smcn4e) From Canadian Renewable Fuels Association (CRFA) FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE February 10, 2011 BIODIESEL BLENDS NOW A REALITY IN CANADA New Federal Regulations Will Benefit Farmers and the Environment Ottawa: The Canadian Renewable Fuels Association (CRFA) today lauded the announcement of a national 2% biodiesel mandate in Canada as good news for consumers, farmers and energy diversity in Canada. This is a milestone day for homegrown renewable biodiesel in Canada. Biodiesel is a better way to drive and an innovative way to fuel our economy, said Gordon Quaiattini, CRFA president in reacting to the federal government's announcement of a 2 per cent Renewable Fuels Standard for biodiesel. Biodiesel is a cleaner alternative to conventional diesel. It will help moderate price by adding to our fuel supply, create new jobs, and benefit farmers and drivers alike. Biodiesel contains no petroleum and can be made from a variety of renewable raw materials, or feedstocks, including pure seed oils, animal fats and recycled cooking oils. It performs comparably to petroleum diesel in terms of fuel economy, horsepower and torque. Biodiesel is safe to use in all diesel vehicles, and also can be used as heating oil and in a variety of other applications, including marine transportation, electrical generation, farming equipment and mining operations. Biodiesel is 10 times less toxic than table salt and is as biodegradable as sugar. Independent studies have shown that Canadian produced biodiesel generates between 85 to 99 per cent less greenhouse gases, depending on feedstock, compared to conventional diesel fuel. From an economic perspective, renewable fuels such as ethanol and biodiesel in Canada are a substantial source of economic and financial benefit to rural Canada. Construction of biofuels facilities has generated roughly $3 billion in economic activity and ongoing operations represent a $2 billion annual economic contribution. For Canadian farmers, higher incomes that flow from
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in Canada
Yup your biodiesel has the ability to adsorb a little humidity but petroleum will not. When you use fuel air is drawn into the tank as it empties and that air always carries some moisture. When the temperature drops and condensation forms, it goes as liquid to the bottom of your petroleum tank. Always top up your tanks and try to burn only the top quarter in cold weather. I know this means carrying extra weight which means burning more fuel but you will have way less issues with water in fuel. This 'could' explain what happened but I still think you got off damn lucky there Seth!! Joe On 30/03/2011 12:52 PM, Fritz wrote: Hello Seth, i would call for ice in the line! Fritz ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in Canada
The government gives a gift to diesel mechanics and fuel filter retailers! Based on my experience running biodiesel in the Canadian winter vehicles will need heated fuel filters in the least. Heavy hauling rigs crossing the nation will need a heated tank and line system and a switchover manifold like you use for SVO in order to be reliable crossing western Canada in winter. I remember my friend the mechanic who looks after the public transit buses when they mandated biodiesel added to the fleet's fuel in Guelph Ontario (which aint that cold folks by Canadian standards) he was bitching about how bad biodiesel was and on and on since they had to change filters so frequently. This is another boon to the service industry like making it illegal to run with snow tires on only the drive wheels. I wonder how many good fuel filters will be tossed out due to gel plugging before they figure out how to solve it? But this is a big country. Plenty of room to bury fuel filters and rubber eh?. I hope they only blend it in summer. Maybe they will. Joe On 21/03/2011 7:59 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Hi Darryl Thankyou. Yes, B2, that'll hide a multitude of sins. But if you multiply those amounts of oil by 50, does it make sense in terms of Canada's petro-diesel consumption? Or maybe he'll be making it for export (but to where?). How can CRFA make all those grand claims for B2? At that low level it's not much more than just a lubricant. All best Keith I don't know who the specific potential customer is, but I expect the demand is related to this announcement. http://www.greenfuels.org/uploads/media_centre/2011%20news%20releases/021011-en2percentregsannouncement.pdf (or http://tinyurl.com/5smcn4e) From Canadian Renewable Fuels Association (CRFA) FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE February 10, 2011 BIODIESEL BLENDS NOW A REALITY IN CANADA New Federal Regulations Will Benefit Farmers and the Environment Ottawa: The Canadian Renewable Fuels Association (CRFA) today lauded the announcement of a national 2% biodiesel mandate in Canada as good news for consumers, farmers and energy diversity in Canada. This is a milestone day for homegrown renewable biodiesel in Canada. Biodiesel is a better way to drive and an innovative way to fuel our economy, said Gordon Quaiattini, CRFA president in reacting to the federal government's announcement of a 2 per cent Renewable Fuels Standard for biodiesel. Biodiesel is a cleaner alternative to conventional diesel. It will help moderate price by adding to our fuel supply, create new jobs, and benefit farmers and drivers alike. Biodiesel contains no petroleum and can be made from a variety of renewable raw materials, or feedstocks, including pure seed oils, animal fats and recycled cooking oils. It performs comparably to petroleum diesel in terms of fuel economy, horsepower and torque. Biodiesel is safe to use in all diesel vehicles, and also can be used as heating oil and in a variety of other applications, including marine transportation, electrical generation, farming equipment and mining operations. Biodiesel is 10 times less toxic than table salt and is as biodegradable as sugar. Independent studies have shown that Canadian produced biodiesel generates between 85 to 99 per cent less greenhouse gases, depending on feedstock, compared to conventional diesel fuel. From an economic perspective, renewable fuels such as ethanol and biodiesel in Canada are a substantial source of economic and financial benefit to rural Canada. Construction of biofuels facilities has generated roughly $3 billion in economic activity and ongoing operations represent a $2 billion annual economic contribution. For Canadian farmers, higher incomes that flow from the sale of surplus feedstock bring additional security and lessen reliance on income and safety net programs. Today's announcement sets the stage for Canada to become a world leader in advanced biofuels, added Mr. Quaiattini. The production and the commercialization of next generation advanced biofuels using state-of-the-art technologies and a wide variety of feedstocks is underway. Thanks to the entrepreneurial spirit of our biofuel pioneers and a stable policy environment the future is now for advanced biofuels in Canada. On 20/03/2011 10:19 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Hello all I got this enquiry - not very unusual, people often try to buy bulk oil from me, but this one's more bulky than most. Who could be planning to make so much biodiesel in Canada? Must be for biodiesel, I suppose. Good evening My name is xxx. I am a trade agent and I am writing because I have a client that needs the following types of oil fuels: 1. Rapeseed Oil (fuel) - 150,000 metric tons/month; 2. Palm Oil fuel - 50,000 MT/month; and 3. Sunflower Oil Fuel - 50,000 MT/month. Packaging: Bulk Could you please tell me IF you could sell him these types
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in Canada
I've found that I can run b100 down to about 25 with canola based b100, more like 35 with other types. I've never had gelling issues with B20 down to about 0F. Below that I haven't tried. With heated filters like you'd use for SVO I think you'd be fine once you got it up to temperature. Those heat the fuel to a minimum of 180f if they are properly designed, with fuel that's solid around 40f, so I think that they'd handle even bad quality B100 well into the negative temps. Changing filters is often because of the cleaning out of all the years of diesel gunk, not just gelling. When I switched to biodiesel in my Mitsubishi truck I clogged filters every 1000 miles for the first year-- 20 years of diesel deposits and a rusty tank. Then it's been fine after that except fir an occasional gelling issue in the fall when cold weather gets me with B100 still in the tank. Z On Friday, March 25, 2011, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The government gives a gift to diesel mechanics and fuel filter retailers! Based on my experience running biodiesel in the Canadian winter vehicles will need heated fuel filters in the least. Heavy hauling rigs crossing the nation will need a heated tank and line system and a switchover manifold like you use for SVO in order to be reliable crossing western Canada in winter. I remember my friend the mechanic who looks after the public transit buses when they mandated biodiesel added to the fleet's fuel in Guelph Ontario (which aint that cold folks by Canadian standards) he was bitching about how bad biodiesel was and on and on since they had to change filters so frequently. This is another boon to the service industry like making it illegal to run with snow tires on only the drive wheels. I wonder how many good fuel filters will be tossed out due to gel plugging before they figure out how to solve it? But this is a big country. Plenty of room to bury fuel filters and rubber eh?. I hope they only blend it in summer. Maybe they will. Joe On 21/03/2011 7:59 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Hi Darryl Thankyou. Yes, B2, that'll hide a multitude of sins. But if you multiply those amounts of oil by 50, does it make sense in terms of Canada's petro-diesel consumption? Or maybe he'll be making it for export (but to where?). How can CRFA make all those grand claims for B2? At that low level it's not much more than just a lubricant. All best Keith I don't know who the specific potential customer is, but I expect the demand is related to this announcement. http://www.greenfuels.org/uploads/media_centre/2011%20news%20releases/021011-en2percentregsannouncement.pdf (or http://tinyurl.com/5smcn4e) From Canadian Renewable Fuels Association (CRFA) FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE February 10, 2011 BIODIESEL BLENDS NOW A REALITY IN CANADA New Federal Regulations Will Benefit Farmers and the Environment Ottawa: The Canadian Renewable Fuels Association (CRFA) today lauded the announcement of a national 2% biodiesel mandate in Canada as good news for consumers, farmers and energy diversity in Canada. This is a milestone day for homegrown renewable biodiesel in Canada. Biodiesel is a better way to drive and an innovative way to fuel our economy, said Gordon Quaiattini, CRFA president in reacting to the federal government's announcement of a 2 per cent Renewable Fuels Standard for biodiesel. Biodiesel is a cleaner alternative to conventional diesel. It will help moderate price by adding to our fuel supply, create new jobs, and benefit farmers and drivers alike. Biodiesel contains no petroleum and can be made from a variety of renewable raw materials, or feedstocks, including pure seed oils, animal fats and recycled cooking oils. It performs comparably to petroleum diesel in terms of fuel economy, horsepower and torque. Biodiesel is safe to use in all diesel vehicles, and also can be used as heating oil and in a variety of other applications, including marine transportation, electrical generation, farming equipment and mining operations. Biodiesel is 10 times less toxic than table salt and is as biodegradable as sugar. Independent studies have shown that Canadian produced biodiesel generates between 85 to 99 per cent less greenhouse gases, depending on feedstock, compared to conventional diesel fuel. From an economic perspective, renewable fuels such as ethanol and biodiesel in Canada are a substantial source of economic and financial benefit to rural Canada. Construction of biofuels facilities has generated roughly $3 billion in economic activity and ongoing operations represent a $2 billion annual economic contribution. For Canadian farmers, higher incomes that flow from the sale of surplus feedstock bring additional security and lessen reliance on income and safety net programs. Today's announcement sets the stage for Canada to become a world leader in advanced biofuels, added Mr. Quaiattini. The production
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in Canada
Couldn't agree more! As a VERY small producer of B100, I don't even show up as a blip on their radar so far. I've been considering buying a membership in their little big boy's club, but can't decide if there will be any actual benefit to me or my community. I suppose if I could get some of their grant $ I might actually have a chance at setting up a business that could come close to keeping up with demand, but then the fuel I'm producing isn't necessarily legal in this country yet! Seth Macdonald Dunster BC CANADA From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Mon, March 21, 2011 4:59:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in Canada Hi Darryl Thankyou. Yes, B2, that'll hide a multitude of sins. But if you multiply those amounts of oil by 50, does it make sense in terms of Canada's petro-diesel consumption? Or maybe he'll be making it for export (but to where?). How can CRFA make all those grand claims for B2? At that low level it's not much more than just a lubricant. All best Keith I don't know who the specific potential customer is, but I expect the demand is related to this announcement. http://www.greenfuels.org/uploads/media_centre/2011%20news%20releases/021011-en2percentregsannouncement.pdf (or http://tinyurl.com/5smcn4e) From Canadian Renewable Fuels Association (CRFA) FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE February 10, 2011 BIODIESEL BLENDS NOW A REALITY IN CANADA New Federal Regulations Will Benefit Farmers and the Environment Ottawa: The Canadian Renewable Fuels Association (CRFA) today lauded the announcement of a national 2% biodiesel mandate in Canada as good news for consumers, farmers and energy diversity in Canada. This is a milestone day for homegrown renewable biodiesel in Canada. Biodiesel is a better way to drive and an innovative way to fuel our economy, said Gordon Quaiattini, CRFA president in reacting to the federal government's announcement of a 2 per cent Renewable Fuels Standard for biodiesel. Biodiesel is a cleaner alternative to conventional diesel. It will help moderate price by adding to our fuel supply, create new jobs, and benefit farmers and drivers alike. Biodiesel contains no petroleum and can be made from a variety of renewable raw materials, or feedstocks, including pure seed oils, animal fats and recycled cooking oils. It performs comparably to petroleum diesel in terms of fuel economy, horsepower and torque. Biodiesel is safe to use in all diesel vehicles, and also can be used as heating oil and in a variety of other applications, including marine transportation, electrical generation, farming equipment and mining operations. Biodiesel is 10 times less toxic than table salt and is as biodegradable as sugar. Independent studies have shown that Canadian produced biodiesel generates between 85 to 99 per cent less greenhouse gases, depending on feedstock, compared to conventional diesel fuel. From an economic perspective, renewable fuels such as ethanol and biodiesel in Canada are a substantial source of economic and financial benefit to rural Canada. Construction of biofuels facilities has generated roughly $3 billion in economic activity and ongoing operations represent a $2 billion annual economic contribution. For Canadian farmers, higher incomes that flow from the sale of surplus feedstock bring additional security and lessen reliance on income and safety net programs. Today's announcement sets the stage for Canada to become a world leader in advanced biofuels, added Mr. Quaiattini. The production and the commercialization of next generation advanced biofuels using state-of-the-art technologies and a wide variety of feedstocks is underway. Thanks to the entrepreneurial spirit of our biofuel pioneers and a stable policy environment the future is now for advanced biofuels in Canada. On 20/03/2011 10:19 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Hello all I got this enquiry - not very unusual, people often try to buy bulk oil from me, but this one's more bulky than most. Who could be planning to make so much biodiesel in Canada? Must be for biodiesel, I suppose. Good evening My name is xxx. I am a trade agent and I am writing because I have a client that needs the following types of oil fuels: 1. Rapeseed Oil (fuel) - 150,000 metric tons/month; 2. Palm Oil fuel - 50,000 MT/month; and 3. Sunflower Oil Fuel - 50,000 MT/month. Packaging: Bulk Could you please tell me IF you could sell him these types of oil fuels? My client is in Canada. Thank you All best Keith -- Darryl McMahon Prez, Electric Vehicle Council of Ottawa ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in Canada
Hi Darryl Thankyou. Yes, B2, that'll hide a multitude of sins. But if you multiply those amounts of oil by 50, does it make sense in terms of Canada's petro-diesel consumption? Or maybe he'll be making it for export (but to where?). How can CRFA make all those grand claims for B2? At that low level it's not much more than just a lubricant. All best Keith I don't know who the specific potential customer is, but I expect the demand is related to this announcement. http://www.greenfuels.org/uploads/media_centre/2011%20news%20releases/021011-en2percentregsannouncement.pdf (or http://tinyurl.com/5smcn4e) From Canadian Renewable Fuels Association (CRFA) FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE February 10, 2011 BIODIESEL BLENDS NOW A REALITY IN CANADA New Federal Regulations Will Benefit Farmers and the Environment Ottawa: The Canadian Renewable Fuels Association (CRFA) today lauded the announcement of a national 2% biodiesel mandate in Canada as good news for consumers, farmers and energy diversity in Canada. This is a milestone day for homegrown renewable biodiesel in Canada. Biodiesel is a better way to drive and an innovative way to fuel our economy, said Gordon Quaiattini, CRFA president in reacting to the federal government's announcement of a 2 per cent Renewable Fuels Standard for biodiesel. Biodiesel is a cleaner alternative to conventional diesel. It will help moderate price by adding to our fuel supply, create new jobs, and benefit farmers and drivers alike. Biodiesel contains no petroleum and can be made from a variety of renewable raw materials, or feedstocks, including pure seed oils, animal fats and recycled cooking oils. It performs comparably to petroleum diesel in terms of fuel economy, horsepower and torque. Biodiesel is safe to use in all diesel vehicles, and also can be used as heating oil and in a variety of other applications, including marine transportation, electrical generation, farming equipment and mining operations. Biodiesel is 10 times less toxic than table salt and is as biodegradable as sugar. Independent studies have shown that Canadian produced biodiesel generates between 85 to 99 per cent less greenhouse gases, depending on feedstock, compared to conventional diesel fuel. From an economic perspective, renewable fuels such as ethanol and biodiesel in Canada are a substantial source of economic and financial benefit to rural Canada. Construction of biofuels facilities has generated roughly $3 billion in economic activity and ongoing operations represent a $2 billion annual economic contribution. For Canadian farmers, higher incomes that flow from the sale of surplus feedstock bring additional security and lessen reliance on income and safety net programs. Today's announcement sets the stage for Canada to become a world leader in advanced biofuels, added Mr. Quaiattini. The production and the commercialization of next generation advanced biofuels using state-of-the-art technologies and a wide variety of feedstocks is underway. Thanks to the entrepreneurial spirit of our biofuel pioneers and a stable policy environment the future is now for advanced biofuels in Canada. On 20/03/2011 10:19 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Hello all I got this enquiry - not very unusual, people often try to buy bulk oil from me, but this one's more bulky than most. Who could be planning to make so much biodiesel in Canada? Must be for biodiesel, I suppose. Good evening My name is xxx. I am a trade agent and I am writing because I have a client that needs the following types of oil fuels: 1. Rapeseed Oil (fuel) - 150,000 metric tons/month; 2. Palm Oil fuel - 50,000 MT/month; and 3. Sunflower Oil Fuel - 50,000 MT/month. Packaging: Bulk Could you please tell me IF you could sell him these types of oil fuels? My client is in Canada. Thank you All best Keith -- Darryl McMahon Prez, Electric Vehicle Council of Ottawa ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in Canada
This link (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/canada/road-sector-diesel-fuel-consumption-kt-of-oil-equivalent-wb-data.html or http://tinyurl.com/66yty6r) indicates Canada is consuming somewhere in the order of 11 megatonnes (11,000,000 tonnes) of diesel annually (data up to 2007, and I doubt the figures have declined since then). I have no idea how accurate this is. 1/50th of that would be about 220 kilotonnes (220,000 tonnes) annually. Your correspondent seems to be looking for roughly that amount monthly. That's a lot of oil. Either I have messed up the math somewhere, or he is on about something other than 2% of current Canadian diesel consumption. Darryl On 21/03/2011 7:59 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Hi Darryl Thankyou. Yes, B2, that'll hide a multitude of sins. But if you multiply those amounts of oil by 50, does it make sense in terms of Canada's petro-diesel consumption? Or maybe he'll be making it for export (but to where?). How can CRFA make all those grand claims for B2? At that low level it's not much more than just a lubricant. All best Keith I don't know who the specific potential customer is, but I expect the demand is related to this announcement. http://www.greenfuels.org/uploads/media_centre/2011%20news%20releases/021011-en2percentregsannouncement.pdf (or http://tinyurl.com/5smcn4e) From Canadian Renewable Fuels Association (CRFA) FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE February 10, 2011 BIODIESEL BLENDS NOW A REALITY IN CANADA New Federal Regulations Will Benefit Farmers and the Environment Ottawa: The Canadian Renewable Fuels Association (CRFA) today lauded the announcement of a national 2% biodiesel mandate in Canada as good news for consumers, farmers and energy diversity in Canada. This is a milestone day for homegrown renewable biodiesel in Canada. Biodiesel is a better way to drive and an innovative way to fuel our economy, said Gordon Quaiattini, CRFA president in reacting to the federal government's announcement of a 2 per cent Renewable Fuels Standard for biodiesel. Biodiesel is a cleaner alternative to conventional diesel. It will help moderate price by adding to our fuel supply, create new jobs, and benefit farmers and drivers alike. Biodiesel contains no petroleum and can be made from a variety of renewable raw materials, or feedstocks, including pure seed oils, animal fats and recycled cooking oils. It performs comparably to petroleum diesel in terms of fuel economy, horsepower and torque. Biodiesel is safe to use in all diesel vehicles, and also can be used as heating oil and in a variety of other applications, including marine transportation, electrical generation, farming equipment and mining operations. Biodiesel is 10 times less toxic than table salt and is as biodegradable as sugar. Independent studies have shown that Canadian produced biodiesel generates between 85 to 99 per cent less greenhouse gases, depending on feedstock, compared to conventional diesel fuel. From an economic perspective, renewable fuels such as ethanol and biodiesel in Canada are a substantial source of economic and financial benefit to rural Canada. Construction of biofuels facilities has generated roughly $3 billion in economic activity and ongoing operations represent a $2 billion annual economic contribution. For Canadian farmers, higher incomes that flow from the sale of surplus feedstock bring additional security and lessen reliance on income and safety net programs. Today's announcement sets the stage for Canada to become a world leader in advanced biofuels, added Mr. Quaiattini. The production and the commercialization of next generation advanced biofuels using state-of-the-art technologies and a wide variety of feedstocks is underway. Thanks to the entrepreneurial spirit of our biofuel pioneers and a stable policy environment the future is now for advanced biofuels in Canada. On 20/03/2011 10:19 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Hello all I got this enquiry - not very unusual, people often try to buy bulk oil from me, but this one's more bulky than most. Who could be planning to make so much biodiesel in Canada? Must be for biodiesel, I suppose. Good evening My name is xxx. I am a trade agent and I am writing because I have a client that needs the following types of oil fuels: 1. Rapeseed Oil (fuel) - 150,000 metric tons/month; 2. Palm Oil fuel - 50,000 MT/month; and 3. Sunflower Oil Fuel - 50,000 MT/month. Packaging: Bulk Could you please tell me IF you could sell him these types of oil fuels? My client is in Canada. Thank you All best Keith -- Darryl McMahon Prez, Electric Vehicle Council of Ottawa ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in Canada
Palm oil in CANADA?! From what I understand our climate is too harsh in most of this country to make Bio-Diesel out of Palm Oil. Seth(Dredneck) Macdonald From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sun, March 20, 2011 7:19:47 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in Canada Hello all I got this enquiry - not very unusual, people often try to buy bulk oil from me, but this one's more bulky than most. Who could be planning to make so much biodiesel in Canada? Must be for biodiesel, I suppose. Good evening My name is xxx. I am a trade agent and I am writing because I have a client that needs the following types of oil fuels: 1. Rapeseed Oil (fuel) - 150,000 metric tons/month; 2. Palm Oil fuel - 50,000 MT/month; and 3. Sunflower Oil Fuel - 50,000 MT/month. Packaging: Bulk Could you please tell me IF you could sell him these types of oil fuels? My client is in Canada. Thank you All best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20110320/4d0178cd/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in Canada
Palm oil in CANADA?! From what I understand our climate is too harsh in most of this country to make Bio-Diesel out of Palm Oil. Yes, quite. Maybe I'll get another order for a thousand tons of pour-point depressant. Best Keith Seth(Dredneck) Macdonald From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sun, March 20, 2011 7:19:47 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in Canada Hello all I got this enquiry - not very unusual, people often try to buy bulk oil from me, but this one's more bulky than most. Who could be planning to make so much biodiesel in Canada? Must be for biodiesel, I suppose. Good evening My name is xxx. I am a trade agent and I am writing because I have a client that needs the following types of oil fuels: 1. Rapeseed Oil (fuel) - 150,000 metric tons/month; 2. Palm Oil fuel - 50,000 MT/month; and 3. Sunflower Oil Fuel - 50,000 MT/month. Packaging: Bulk Could you please tell me IF you could sell him these types of oil fuels? My client is in Canada. Thank you All best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in Canada
I don't know who the specific potential customer is, but I expect the demand is related to this announcement. http://www.greenfuels.org/uploads/media_centre/2011%20news%20releases/021011-en2percentregsannouncement.pdf (or http://tinyurl.com/5smcn4e) From Canadian Renewable Fuels Association (CRFA) FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE February 10, 2011 BIODIESEL BLENDS NOW A REALITY IN CANADA New Federal Regulations Will Benefit Farmers and the Environment Ottawa: The Canadian Renewable Fuels Association (CRFA) today lauded the announcement of a national 2% biodiesel mandate in Canada as good news for consumers, farmers and energy diversity in Canada. “This is a milestone day for homegrown renewable biodiesel in Canada. Biodiesel is a better way to drive and an innovative way to fuel our economy,” said Gordon Quaiattini, CRFA president in reacting to the federal government’s announcement of a 2 per cent Renewable Fuels Standard for biodiesel. “Biodiesel is a cleaner alternative to conventional diesel. It will help moderate price by adding to our fuel supply, create new jobs, and benefit farmers and drivers alike.” Biodiesel contains no petroleum and can be made from a variety of renewable raw materials, or feedstocks, including pure seed oils, animal fats and recycled cooking oils. It performs comparably to petroleum diesel in terms of fuel economy, horsepower and torque. Biodiesel is safe to use in all diesel vehicles, and also can be used as heating oil and in a variety of other applications, including marine transportation, electrical generation, farming equipment and mining operations. Biodiesel is 10 times less toxic than table salt and is as biodegradable as sugar. Independent studies have shown that Canadian produced biodiesel generates between 85 to 99 per cent less greenhouse gases, depending on feedstock, compared to conventional diesel fuel. From an economic perspective, renewable fuels such as ethanol and biodiesel in Canada are a substantial source of economic and financial benefit to rural Canada. Construction of biofuels facilities has generated roughly $3 billion in economic activity and ongoing operations represent a $2 billion annual economic contribution. For Canadian farmers, higher incomes that flow from the sale of surplus feedstock bring additional security and lessen reliance on income and safety net programs. “Today’s announcement sets the stage for Canada to become a world leader in advanced biofuels,” added Mr. Quaiattini. “The production and the commercialization of next generation advanced biofuels using state-of-the-art technologies and a wide variety of feedstocks is underway. Thanks to the entrepreneurial spirit of our biofuel pioneers and a stable policy environment the future is now for advanced biofuels in Canada.” On 20/03/2011 10:19 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Hello all I got this enquiry - not very unusual, people often try to buy bulk oil from me, but this one's more bulky than most. Who could be planning to make so much biodiesel in Canada? Must be for biodiesel, I suppose. Good evening My name is xxx. I am a trade agent and I am writing because I have a client that needs the following types of oil fuels: 1. Rapeseed Oil (fuel) - 150,000 metric tons/month; 2. Palm Oil fuel - 50,000 MT/month; and 3. Sunflower Oil Fuel - 50,000 MT/month. Packaging: Bulk Could you please tell me IF you could sell him these types of oil fuels? My client is in Canada. Thank you All best Keith -- Darryl McMahon Prez, Electric Vehicle Council of Ottawa ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel, carbon sequestering and carbon trading
Hello John That all makes sound sense, except for one thing: biochar. Biochar is complete nonsense, or worse. You're supposed to use the list archives to check these things first. http://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=terra+pretal=sustainablelorgbiofuel%40sustainablelists.org 21 messages about Terra Preta http://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=sustainablelorgbiofuel%40sustainablelists.orgq=biochar 15 messages about biochar Including these: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg70170.html Re: [Biofuel] Terra Preta - Magic Soil of the Lost Amazon Sat, 09 Jun 2007 http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg70182.html Re: [Biofuel] Terra Preta - Magic Soil of the Lost Amazon Sun, 10 Jun 2007 Please do your homework. Stop wasting your time (and ours) with biochar. Best wishes Keith Addison Hello All, I have been recieving the associated emails from this list for some time now and find them interesting. BUT, maybe I am missing something here although there does seem one question arises - what about tying it all together? So, plant the trees tol get the seed to then get the veg oil to get the biodiesel and the biomass to get the electricity. OK, that is putting it very simplistically but, fully expanded out, it may have some merit. I live in Northern Australia where I can access a native tree that yields copious quantities of seed that, when pressed, yields a generous quantity of oil. Although this oil is totally unsuitable as a food product, it is good for biodiesel and other industrial uses. The tree does not compete with cultivation land used for cropping, is drought tolerant and doesnot require fertilizers etc for its continued life. I am currently at the stage of putting in a screw press to extract the oil, then I can manufacture the biodiesel and generate electricity from the biomass then put the remaining biochar back into the ground (in my vegie garden as a starting point). One question though, if I have access to some 3,000 acres (say, approx 1,500 hectares) of land on which I plant some 450,000 trees that yields around 17, 72, 331,347 kg carbon per plant at 5, 10, 15, 25 years of age respectively, what is the potential for carbon trading? While these figures should be regarded as general only, they do come from a University source from a trial conducted by them over that time frame. So I would think it is reasonably accurate. I would appreciate your responses John Petersen ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel powered radiant heat (was Nigera)
On 10-10-26 09:57 PM, Seth Macdonald wrote: Thanks for the tip Chip! The only reason I would want to be heating the floor with Bio-diesel instead of water or Glycol heated by solar and/or a wood fired boiler, is because I have to dry the fuel anyways. I'd rather not waste that energy so to speak so I may as well pump the fuel throough the floor while I'm heating it and heat the building... When I need to heat the next batch, my thought was to have a hopper above the heating system which is allways full and I would recharge the system with exactly the amount I remove.. Eventually I'd love to run the system on solar or another renewable heat source... Seth(Dredneck) From: Chip Mefford[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tue, October 26, 2010 3:30:57 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel powered radiant heat (was Nigera) I should clarify; The oil burner system shown, is a BACKUP to the solar collector system shown here: http://cpm01.smugmug.com/Bicycles/buy-fresh-bike-local-2010/IMG0751/963631204_narY5-XL.jpg When planning stuff like this, one of the key points to keep in mind, is the order of energy, as Amory Lovins puts it. Second law of thermodynamics. While an oil burner is in the same order of magnitude as the work in this case, heating the floor, it's still a higher quality of energy. A closer match is solar power. The closer the match, the more efficient, taking the long view. esp when you factor in the cracking of the biofuel in the first place. Biofuels, like fossilfuels are just too danged convenient for their own good. :) Using your ingenuity and some more of your food powered energy (IE doing work) you could probably front load your heating needs by dreaming up and implementing a solar heat collection/distribution system, which would drop the biofuel requirements for your heating needs radically. I know you are trying to get this done on a short timeline, but please plan for migrating the main energy source from the oil burner to solar collection, I think you'll be happy you did. You don't have time to do it this year, but maybe next summer. Again, neat project, keep us posted! cheers --chipper - Original Message - From: Chip Mefford[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 6:06:16 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Nigeria: Shell Oil's 'License to Kill' - Original Message - From: Seth Macdonald[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 11:11:35 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Nigeria: Shell Oil's 'License to Kill' |SNIP |I am also madly trying to pour a floor in my shop complete with in-floor heating |pipes before freeze-up(which is happening SOON!) | |I am curious if anyone out there has ever tried to run Bio-Diesel in a hydronic |in-floor heating system. It seems to me to be the perfect solution to using |energy already consumed by the drying process to heat the facility. My biggest |question is wether or not plastic pex water pipe is compatible with bio-diesel. | |Any leads on this subject would be greatly appreciated, | |Sincerely, |The Dred Neck | |Dunster BC |Canada |V0J 1J0 http://cpm01.smugmug.com/Bicycles/buy-fresh-bike-local-2010/IMG0749/963631153_nZVUP-XL.jpg Hey Seth; What you see in this picture, is an experimental greenhouse soil bed heating system, which is based on the same concept as radiant floor heating. This system uses an oil burner converted to run biodiesel. It works. This system is installed at the Dickenson College Farm CSA, which grows the food for Dickenson College in Carlisle Pa, US. This is the website: http://www.dickinson.edu/about/sustainability/college-farm/ Jen Halpin is the farmer/farm manager, and her partner, Matt is the whacko who comes up with stuff like this. You can find her contact info on the website, and they may be able to share some clues with you. Good luck! Sounds like a fun project. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20101026/521b00f9/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel powered radiant heat (was Nigera)
Hey Seth: - Original Message - From: Seth Macdonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 9:57:16 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel powered radiant heat (was Nigera) Thanks for the tip Chip! The only reason I would want to be heating the floor with Bio-diesel instead of water or Glycol heated by solar and/or a wood fired boiler, is because I have to dry the fuel anyways. I'd rather not waste that energy so to speak so I may as well pump the fuel throough the floor while I'm heating it and heat the building... When I need to heat the next batch, my thought was to have a hopper above the heating system which is allways full and I would recharge the system with exactly the amount I remove.. Eventually I'd love to run the system on solar or another renewable heat source... Seth(Dredneck) Ah, this is very cool. yer thinking! Yeah, they call this 'co-generation'. Not wasting the heat. Very very forward thinking. Okay, things to keep in mind, Yer gonna want some kind of major liquid thermal mass storage. What I've seen in some very well engineered house systems, was stuff like a 2500 gallon storage tank buried beneath a part of the slab, as a place to store excess heat. You could use this for a lot of things, like preheating your inputs to your biodiesel system to save on the fuel load when running the process. You might want to put some long thought into this part of the engineering. Further, the slab itself. There is actually a lot of tricky engineering and physics involved in all this. For a conventional radiant slab system, folks put in the pipes, pour the slab, and 'buy' the pre-engineered heating system for the slab size/tempzone. There are a lot of considerations, not the least of which is that the actual amount of heat for the slab is relatively low, you are looking for a slab temp of 22-25c (72-77) and NO MORE. Believe it or not, a slab at a temp higher than 25 is actually uncomfortable, and further, you can CRACK THE SLAB. Adding too much heat can break the slab, adding the right amount of heat too quickly can break the slab. Once the slab cracks, then you have major problems with the system, as the tubing *will* fail, blah blah blah. Essentially, you are going to want to maintain the slab at or near the temp at which the concrete cured. Since this is getting pretty late in the year, this means you are going to be using a lot of additional heat to cure the slab at or near the optimal temp. I hope you are documenting this as you go, this is a very cool project, and I wish you all the luck in the world, keep up the good work! -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel powered radiant heat
Hi Seth; If you dry the fuel in a tank like a hot water tank you can use a vacuum and speed up the process greatly. Also you can recover methanol, there isn't much in the esters compared to what comes out of waste glycerin but once you have this system you can get excellent methanol recovery from waste glycerin using it. If you add a heat exchange coil to this tank you can recover heat energy for other purposes. Joe - Original Message - From: Seth Macdonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 9:57:16 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel powered radiant heat (was Nigera) Thanks for the tip Chip! The only reason I would want to be heating the floor with Bio-diesel instead of water or Glycol heated by solar and/or a wood fired boiler, is because I have to dry the fuel anyways. I'd rather not waste that energy so to speak so I may as well pump the fuel throough the floor while I'm heating it and heat the building... When I need to heat the next batch, my thought was to have a hopper above the heating system which is allways full and I would recharge the system with exactly the amount I remove.. Eventually I'd love to run the system on solar or another renewable heat source... Seth(Dredneck) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20101027/5615ca24/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel powered radiant heat (was Nigera)
I should clarify; The oil burner system shown, is a BACKUP to the solar collector system shown here: http://cpm01.smugmug.com/Bicycles/buy-fresh-bike-local-2010/IMG0751/963631204_narY5-XL.jpg When planning stuff like this, one of the key points to keep in mind, is the order of energy, as Amory Lovins puts it. Second law of thermodynamics. While an oil burner is in the same order of magnitude as the work in this case, heating the floor, it's still a higher quality of energy. A closer match is solar power. The closer the match, the more efficient, taking the long view. esp when you factor in the cracking of the biofuel in the first place. Biofuels, like fossilfuels are just too danged convenient for their own good. :) Using your ingenuity and some more of your food powered energy (IE doing work) you could probably front load your heating needs by dreaming up and implementing a solar heat collection/distribution system, which would drop the biofuel requirements for your heating needs radically. I know you are trying to get this done on a short timeline, but please plan for migrating the main energy source from the oil burner to solar collection, I think you'll be happy you did. You don't have time to do it this year, but maybe next summer. Again, neat project, keep us posted! cheers --chipper - Original Message - From: Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 6:06:16 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Nigeria: Shell Oil's 'License to Kill' - Original Message - From: Seth Macdonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 11:11:35 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Nigeria: Shell Oil's 'License to Kill' |SNIP |I am also madly trying to pour a floor in my shop complete with in-floor heating |pipes before freeze-up(which is happening SOON!) | |I am curious if anyone out there has ever tried to run Bio-Diesel in a hydronic |in-floor heating system. It seems to me to be the perfect solution to using |energy already consumed by the drying process to heat the facility. My biggest |question is wether or not plastic pex water pipe is compatible with bio-diesel. | |Any leads on this subject would be greatly appreciated, | |Sincerely, |The Dred Neck | |Dunster BC |Canada |V0J 1J0 http://cpm01.smugmug.com/Bicycles/buy-fresh-bike-local-2010/IMG0749/963631153_nZVUP-XL.jpg Hey Seth; What you see in this picture, is an experimental greenhouse soil bed heating system, which is based on the same concept as radiant floor heating. This system uses an oil burner converted to run biodiesel. It works. This system is installed at the Dickenson College Farm CSA, which grows the food for Dickenson College in Carlisle Pa, US. This is the website: http://www.dickinson.edu/about/sustainability/college-farm/ Jen Halpin is the farmer/farm manager, and her partner, Matt is the whacko who comes up with stuff like this. You can find her contact info on the website, and they may be able to share some clues with you. Good luck! Sounds like a fun project. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel powered radiant heat (was Nigera)
Thanks for the tip Chip! The only reason I would want to be heating the floor with Bio-diesel instead of water or Glycol heated by solar and/or a wood fired boiler, is because I have to dry the fuel anyways. I'd rather not waste that energy so to speak so I may as well pump the fuel throough the floor while I'm heating it and heat the building... When I need to heat the next batch, my thought was to have a hopper above the heating system which is allways full and I would recharge the system with exactly the amount I remove.. Eventually I'd love to run the system on solar or another renewable heat source... Seth(Dredneck) From: Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tue, October 26, 2010 3:30:57 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel powered radiant heat (was Nigera) I should clarify; The oil burner system shown, is a BACKUP to the solar collector system shown here: http://cpm01.smugmug.com/Bicycles/buy-fresh-bike-local-2010/IMG0751/963631204_narY5-XL.jpg When planning stuff like this, one of the key points to keep in mind, is the order of energy, as Amory Lovins puts it. Second law of thermodynamics. While an oil burner is in the same order of magnitude as the work in this case, heating the floor, it's still a higher quality of energy. A closer match is solar power. The closer the match, the more efficient, taking the long view. esp when you factor in the cracking of the biofuel in the first place. Biofuels, like fossilfuels are just too danged convenient for their own good. :) Using your ingenuity and some more of your food powered energy (IE doing work) you could probably front load your heating needs by dreaming up and implementing a solar heat collection/distribution system, which would drop the biofuel requirements for your heating needs radically. I know you are trying to get this done on a short timeline, but please plan for migrating the main energy source from the oil burner to solar collection, I think you'll be happy you did. You don't have time to do it this year, but maybe next summer. Again, neat project, keep us posted! cheers --chipper - Original Message - From: Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 6:06:16 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Nigeria: Shell Oil's 'License to Kill' - Original Message - From: Seth Macdonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 11:11:35 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Nigeria: Shell Oil's 'License to Kill' |SNIP |I am also madly trying to pour a floor in my shop complete with in-floor heating |pipes before freeze-up(which is happening SOON!) | |I am curious if anyone out there has ever tried to run Bio-Diesel in a hydronic |in-floor heating system. It seems to me to be the perfect solution to using |energy already consumed by the drying process to heat the facility. My biggest |question is wether or not plastic pex water pipe is compatible with bio-diesel. | |Any leads on this subject would be greatly appreciated, | |Sincerely, |The Dred Neck | |Dunster BC |Canada |V0J 1J0 http://cpm01.smugmug.com/Bicycles/buy-fresh-bike-local-2010/IMG0749/963631153_nZVUP-XL.jpg Hey Seth; What you see in this picture, is an experimental greenhouse soil bed heating system, which is based on the same concept as radiant floor heating. This system uses an oil burner converted to run biodiesel. It works. This system is installed at the Dickenson College Farm CSA, which grows the food for Dickenson College in Carlisle Pa, US. This is the website: http://www.dickinson.edu/about/sustainability/college-farm/ Jen Halpin is the farmer/farm manager, and her partner, Matt is the whacko who comes up with stuff like this. You can find her contact info on the website, and they may be able to share some clues with you. Good luck! Sounds like a fun project. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20101026/521b00f9/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Hi Jim, You wrote: I was intially trying different KOH concentrations because I was not passing the wash test; I assumed that this was due to better-than-expected KOH quality and As I reduced KOH concentration, my wash test results worsened and the methanol test indicated incomplete reactions so I reversed course and began increasing KOH concentration.- I found that I can pass the methanol test with higher KOH concentration (5.9 g/L 6.1 g/L). 5.9g KOH/L and 6.1g HOH/L - pass the methanol Quality Test. Success with 5.9 g KOH/L indicates that the KOH you are using is about 83% pure that is, if this veg oil has no Free Fatty Acids. Given a successful quality test, the emulsion you observe in the wash test is likely due to the presence of soap. 18 hours of settling time ought to be sufficient especially given a complete reaction. I suspect that there was glycerin contamination in the wash. At this point, I think I have isolated the source of my wash problems to: (1) incomplete separation of glycerin (I just purchased a separatory funnel that will accomodate my test batches to eliminate this problem... I didn't have the sep funnel for those batches) . the 5.9 6.1 g KOH/L batches that passed QT but failed wash. Be careful to exclude glycerin from the wash, even if it means draining a bit of BD with the glycerin. The last time I had a problem w. soap was whenI accidently drained some glycerin into the wash tank. I will mix another batch using 5.9 g/L for 20 - 30 minutes; if I pass the methanol test, can I assume that I'm getting a complete reaction? - Yes That is, by the way, the hard part. Focus on achieving a complete reaction passing the methanol test.5.9g of your KOH/L of this veg oil seems to be correct. You might try titrating the oil you are using. a recent post suggested titrating all veg oil, even unused. I recently titrated a store brand veg oil and it required 0.3g 90%KOH to neutralize the FFAs present. Another unused oil titrated 0.7g KOH/L. You will have to become familiar with titration for the next step. Good luck. It sounds like you are on the verge of success. You will be thankful later for the effort you put in now. Tom - Original Message - From: James Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Thanks Tom and Keith for your responses. Have you not gotten complete reactions on 1L test batches run at 130F (or higher) in a blender for 20 - 30 minutes? You are using new, unused veg oil? Tom - I am using new, unused soybean oil.- I was intially trying different KOH concentrations because I was not passing the wash test; I assumed that this was due to better-than-expected KOH quality (I only received a represenative Certificate of Analysis with the product, not a batch assay). I did not do the methanol test which, in retrospect, was a mistake. As I reduced KOH concentration, my wash test results worsened and the methanol test indicated incomplete reactions so I reversed course and began increasing KOH concentration.- I found that I can pass the methanol test with higher KOH concentration (5.9 g/L 6.1 g/L). I have not tried a titration yet because I am using fresh oil. Both 5.9 and 6.1 g/L appear to be too high because that concentration yields a complete reaction and when washed separates reasonably quickly but the wash results in 1/4 to 1/2 of emulsion, some of which will break after a couple of days leaving behind chunks of soapy crud - I ran another batch at 5.8 g/L last night taking extra precaution with measurement and clean glassware; I allowed the glycerine to settle out for 18 hours in a separatory funnel. Unfortunately this batch failed the methanol test (there is a bubble of undissolved oil about 0.5 cm in diamter) and subsequently failed the wash test (fairly quick separation into an oil fraction and what appears to be a homogeneous emulsion fraction. - w.r.t. Are you guessing? - I have not reduced processing time only because I wanted to take that variable out of the mix; I will mix another batch using 5.9 g/L for 20 - 30 minutes; if I pass the methanol test, can I assume that I'm getting a complete reaction? - Regarding measurements: + I am still using a simple Ohaus triple beam balance accurate to only 0.1g+ I purchased lab-quality glassware for volumetric measurements+ I began blending methoxide in larger quantities to try to improve weighing accuracy- At this point, I think I have isolated the source of my wash problems to: (1) incomplete separation of glycerin (I just purchased a separatory funnel that will accomodate my test batches to eliminate this problem... I didn't have the sep funnel for those batches) (2) too much KOH (in the case of the 6.1 g/L batch)or, (3) water contamination
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Hey Mike. I'm a novice too but, for what it's worth, in my first 10 test
batches in a blender I have gotten a pretty substantial temperature increase
during mixing - between 10F and 20F increase depending on how long I mixed the
batch (from 25 to 45 minutes) and whether it was my first, 2nd or 3rd batch of
the evening (basically preheating the blender). In my first couple of batches
I tried to insulate the blender with a towel because I was worried that the
mixture would cool during blending. After I saw such significant temperature
gains, I took off the towel. I believe that the temperature increase is due to
friction of the blades - I don't know if it is an exothermic reaction.
As I write this email, I'm running another test batch. the oil was heated to
148F before putting it into a cold blender. When I started processing, the
mixture was 122F and 42 minutes later it is at 145F. I'm processing 40 minutes
instead of the 20 to 30 minutes recommended on Journey-to-forever just because
I'm trying to ensure a complete reaction.
Hope that's useful.
Jim
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:49:05 +0900 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch
question Methanol shouldn't vaporize until 148.46 deg F assuming the
atmospheric pressure in you area is 760mmHg. That's the boiling point
of methanol. It starts to evaporate at much lower temperatures than that.
Temperature maintenance is one of the reasons we recommend a
mini-processor rather than a blender: You can use a spare blender, or,
better, make a simple Test-batch mini-processor.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor7.html Another reason is
that processing in a blender doesn't scale up well to a full-sized
processor, blenders are too fast. Scaling up:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#scale Best Keith
Best, Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL
PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Moran
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:46 PM To:
sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org;
sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel]
biodiesel test batch question I think (but I'm not sure) that
methanol will evaporate at 140, is that correct? If it is, then keeping
the temp below that would become very important too.
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf
of Thomas Kelly Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 6:39 PM To:
sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel]
biodiesel test batch question Mike, Test batches can be
difficult .. well worth the effort. Blenders provide excellent
agitation, but it is difficult to maintain the proper temp. PET
bottles allow one to maintain temp better, but agitation may be
inadequate. It is important to maintain temp even if you must
interupt agitation. Suggestion: Achieve the temp of 130F, blend for
5 minutes, check temp If necessary, carefully return the liquid to a
container to be heated. Return to blender and repeat 2 (3?) more
times I use a hot water bath for heating the mix. Do you have a pot
big enough to fit the blender pitcher into? The pot would contain hot
(~150F) water. Instead of pouring the hot mix back and forth you
could simply place the pitcher from the blender, with top on, into
the hot water bath to re-establish the 130F, blot dry and buzz it
again. I have returned to doing some test batches. I favor heating
the mix in a PET bottle that has a wide mouth with a twist
open/close top. Sport drink plastic bottles often have this feature.
This allows me to limit methanol evaporation while heating the mix.
I either twist the top to open while heating or I squeeze the bottle to
decrease volume of air before closing and heating. The wide mouth
and a funnel make it easy to add the liquid. I heat the mix in a hot
water bath. Good Luck, Tom- Original Message
- From: mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] To:
biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 3:57 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Hello
everyone, my first post i want to apologize if this has been
answered, but I have searched the archives and relevant sites
without finding a clear answer. I've been reading the j2f howto
for doing my first test batch with unused veg oil and a blender. I see
that I'm suppose to pre-heat the oil before starting the process
to 130 deg F, but everything else i read says I need to maintain that
temperature which isn't possible without moving the oil back to
another container that can be heated so I guess basically i'm
asking, is that temp (130) required for the reaction or does it
just aid in a faster reaction. Thanks Mike
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Mechanical agitation will increase the kinetic energy of the molecules thus
temperature.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of James Pfeiffer
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 12:27 PM
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org;
biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Hey Mike. I'm a novice too but, for what it's worth, in my first 10
test batches in a blender I have gotten a pretty substantial
temperature increase during mixing - between 10F and 20F increase
depending on how long I mixed the batch (from 25 to 45 minutes) and
whether it was my first, 2nd or 3rd batch of the evening (basically
preheating the blender). In my first couple of batches I tried to
insulate the blender with a towel because I was worried that the
mixture would cool during blending. After I saw such significant
temperature gains, I took off the towel. I believe that the
temperature increase is due to friction of the blades - I don't know if
it is an exothermic reaction.
As I write this email, I'm running another test batch. the oil was
heated to 148F before putting it into a cold blender. When I started
processing, the mixture was 122F and 42 minutes later it is at 145F.
I'm processing 40 minutes instead of the 20 to 30 minutes recommended
on Journey-to-forever just because I'm trying to ensure a complete
reaction.
Hope that's useful.
Jim
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:49:05 +0900 To:
biofuel@sustainablelists.org From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Methanol
shouldn't vaporize until 148.46 deg F assuming the atmospheric
pressure in you area is 760mmHg. That's the boiling point of
methanol. It starts to evaporate at much lower temperatures than
that. Temperature maintenance is one of the reasons we recommend a
mini-processor rather than a blender: You can use a spare blender,
or, better, make a simple Test-batch mini-processor.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor7.html Another reason
is that processing in a blender doesn't scale up well to a full-sized
processor, blenders are too fast. Scaling up:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#scale Best
Keith Best, Chris -Original Message- From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Steve Moran Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:46 PM To:
sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org;
sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel]
biodiesel test batch question I think (but I'm not sure) that
methanol will evaporate at 140, is that correct? If it is, then
keeping the temp below that would become very important too.
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of
Thomas Kelly Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 6:39 PM To:
sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel]
biodiesel test batch question Mike, Test batches
can be difficult .. well worth the effort. Blenders provide
excellent agitation, but it is difficult to maintain the proper
temp. PET bottles allow one to maintain temp better, but agitation
may be inadequate. It is important to maintain temp
even if you must interupt agitation. Suggestion: Achieve the
temp of 130F, blend for 5 minutes, check temp If necessary,
carefully return the liquid to a container to be heated.
Return to blender and repeat 2 (3?) more times I use a hot
water bath for heating the mix. Do you have a pot big enough to fit
the blender pitcher into? The pot would contain hot (~150F)
water. Instead of pouring the hot mix back and forth you could simply
place the pitcher from the blender, with top on, into the hot
water bath to re-establish the 130F, blot dry and buzz it again.
I have returned to doing some test batches. I favor heating the
mix in a PET bottle that has a wide mouth with a twist
open/close top. Sport drink plastic bottles often have this
feature. This allows me to limit methanol evaporation while
heating the mix. I either twist the top to open while heating or I
squeeze the bottle to decrease volume of air before closing and
heating. The wide mouth and a funnel make it easy to add the liquid. I
heat the mix in a hot water bath. Good Luck, Tom
- Original Message - From: mike
[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent:
Monday, April 28, 2008 3:57 PM Subject: [Biofuel] biodiesel test
batch question Hello everyone, my first post
i want to apologize if this has been answered, but I have searched
the archives and relevant sites without finding a clear answer.
I've been reading the j2f howto for doing my first test
batch with unused veg oil and a blender. I see that I'm suppose
to pre-heat the oil before starting the process to 130 deg F,
but everything else i read says I need to maintain that
temperature
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Steve, Have your test batches passed the quality test? I do my test batches in a pot on a coleman stove out in the garage so I can maintain the temp. How do you agitate the mix? Is the processor an open pot? Tom - Original Message - From: Steve Moran [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org; biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question I do my test batches in a pot on a coleman stove out in the garage so I can maintain the temp. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of mike Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 1:58 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Hello everyone, my first post i want to apologize if this has been answered, but I have searched the archives and relevant sites without finding a clear answer. I've been reading the j2f howto for doing my first test batch with unused veg oil and a blender. I see that I'm suppose to pre-heat the oil before starting the process to 130 deg F, but everything else i read says I need to maintain that temperature which isn't possible without moving the oil back to another container that can be heated so I guess basically i'm asking, is that temp (130) required for the reaction or does it just aid in a faster reaction. Thanks Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Jim,
As I write this email, I'm running another test batch. the oil was heated
to 148F before putting it into a cold blender. When I started
processing, the mixture was 122F and 42 minutes later it is at 145F. I'm
processing 40 minutes instead of the 20 to 30 minutes recommended on
Journey-to-forever just because I'm trying to ensure a complete reaction.
Have you not gotten complete reactions on 1L test batches run at 130F
(or higher) in a blender for 20 - 30 minutes?
You are using new, unused veg oil?
Tom
- Original Message -
From: James Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org;
biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 12:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Hey Mike. I'm a novice too but, for what it's worth, in my first 10 test
batches in a blender I have gotten a pretty substantial temperature
increase during mixing - between 10F and 20F increase depending on how
long I mixed the batch (from 25 to 45 minutes) and whether it was my
first, 2nd or 3rd batch of the evening (basically preheating the
blender). In my first couple of batches I tried to insulate the blender
with a towel because I was worried that the mixture would cool during
blending. After I saw such significant temperature gains, I took off the
towel. I believe that the temperature increase is due to friction of the
blades - I don't know if it is an exothermic reaction.
As I write this email, I'm running another test batch. the oil was heated
to 148F before putting it into a cold blender. When I started processing,
the mixture was 122F and 42 minutes later it is at 145F. I'm processing
40 minutes instead of the 20 to 30 minutes recommended on
Journey-to-forever just because I'm trying to ensure a complete reaction.
Hope that's useful.
Jim
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:49:05 +0900 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test
batch question Methanol shouldn't vaporize until 148.46 deg F
assuming the atmospheric pressure in you area is 760mmHg. That's
the boiling point of methanol. It starts to evaporate at much lower
temperatures than that. Temperature maintenance is one of the reasons
we recommend a mini-processor rather than a blender: You can use a
spare blender, or, better, make a simple Test-batch mini-processor.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor7.html Another reason
is that processing in a blender doesn't scale up well to a full-sized
processor, blenders are too fast. Scaling up:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#scale Best
Keith Best, Chris -Original Message- From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:sustainablelorgbiofuel-bo
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Moran Sent: Monday,
April 28, 2008 4:46 PM To:
sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org;
sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel]
biodiesel test batch question I think (but I'm not sure) that
methanol will evaporate at 140, is that correct? If it is, then
keeping the temp below that would become very important too.
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of
Thomas Kelly Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 6:39 PM To:
sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel]
biodiesel test batch question Mike, Test batches can
be difficult .. well worth the effort. Blenders provide excellent
agitation, but it is difficult to maintain the proper temp.
PET bottles allow one to maintain temp better, but agitation may be
inadequate.
It is important to maintain temp even if you must interupt
agitation. Suggestion: Achieve the temp of 130F, blend for 5
minutes, check temp If necessary, carefully return the liquid to a
container to be heated. Return to blender and repeat 2 (3?)
more times I use a hot water bath for heating the mix. Do you
have a pot big enough to fit the blender pitcher into? The pot
would contain hot (~150F) water. Instead of pouring the hot mix
back and forth you could simply place the pitcher from the
blender, with top on, into the hot water bath to re-establish the
130F, blot dry and buzz it again. I have returned to doing some
test batches. I favor heating the mix in a PET bottle that has
a wide mouth with a twist open/close top. Sport drink plastic
bottles often have this feature. This allows me to limit methanol
evaporation while heating the mix. I either twist the top to open
while heatin
g or I squeeze the bottle to decrease volume of air before closing
and heating. The wide mouth and a funnel make it easy to add the
liquid. I heat the mix in a hot water bath. Good Luck,
Tom- Original Message - From: mike
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
I've gotten one to pass a wash test, but I stopped with test batches until I get a more accurate scale. Its too hit or miss with the scale I have now. I use a drill with a hollow-wall molly anchor as a stirrer and use a piece of Velcro strap to keep the drill moving at a low speed. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thomas Kelly Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 5:36 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Steve, Have your test batches passed the quality test? I do my test batches in a pot on a coleman stove out in the garage so I can maintain the temp. How do you agitate the mix? Is the processor an open pot? Tom - Original Message - From: Steve Moran [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org; biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question I do my test batches in a pot on a coleman stove out in the garage so I can maintain the temp. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of mike Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 1:58 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Hello everyone, my first post i want to apologize if this has been answered, but I have searched the archives and relevant sites without finding a clear answer. I've been reading the j2f howto for doing my first test batch with unused veg oil and a blender. I see that I'm suppose to pre-heat the oil before starting the process to 130 deg F, but everything else i read says I need to maintain that temperature which isn't possible without moving the oil back to another container that can be heated so I guess basically i'm asking, is that temp (130) required for the reaction or does it just aid in a faster reaction. Thanks Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Hello Jim Hey Mike. I'm a novice too but, for what it's worth, in my first 10 test batches in a blender I have gotten a pretty substantial temperature increase during mixing - between 10F and 20F increase depending on how long I mixed the batch (from 25 to 45 minutes) and whether it was my first, 2nd or 3rd batch of the evening (basically preheating the blender). In my first couple of batches I tried to insulate the blender with a towel because I was worried that the mixture would cool during blending. After I saw such significant temperature gains, I took off the towel. I believe that the temperature increase is due to friction of the blades - I don't know if it is an exothermic reaction. As I write this email, I'm running another test batch. the oil was heated to 148F before putting it into a cold blender. When I started processing, the mixture was 122F and 42 minutes later it is at 145F. I'm processing 40 minutes instead of the 20 to 30 minutes recommended on Journey-to-forever just because I'm trying to ensure a complete reaction. So you're just guessing? Didn't you read this bit? Scaling up: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#scale I just posted that link, it's below, in the previous message. It discusses using the quality checks and tweaking the process to fine-tune it. The same applies to any processor, full-scale or mini or blender - for a blender just reduce the period between the samples, for instance. It says that in Make your first test batch, #6. Quality: For instance, different blenders and mini-processors have different shapes and different rates of agitation, and the processing time required for good process completion can vary accordingly. You might have to adjust it. Don't you guys do links? It's hyperlinked, it's not a book. It even explains how it works, though I'd have thought it superfluous: ... comment from a Biofuel list member: - Your website is very well done. I appreciate the layers of technical complexity. You have progressively more technical information layered in an escalating and logical fashion. I like the links as each new item is introduced, the user can click for more specific information on a topic and it opens in a new window. This eliminates the tediousness of having to constantly backtrack to where the new concept was introduced. -- from Make your own biodiesel What's next? It takes you right there: Make your own biodiesel Make your first test batch 6. Quality: Proceed to the wash-test and the methanol test to check the quality of your biodiesel. ... If the biodiesel doesn't pass the tests ... Here's what to do next. The Here's link takes you here: What should you do if your fuel doesn't pass the wash-test? See also How to use the quality tests, below. Scale up to larger batches. Tweaking the process. It's all there, but if you don't follow the links you'll only get a keyhole view. Best Keith Hope that's useful. Jim Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:49:05 +0900 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Methanol shouldn't vaporize until 148.46 deg F assuming the atmospheric pressure in you area is 760mmHg. That's the boiling point of methanol. It starts to evaporate at much lower temperatures than that. Temperature maintenance is one of the reasons we recommend a mini-processor rather than a blender: You can use a spare blender, or, better, make a simple Test-batch mini-processor. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor7.html Another reason is that processing in a blender doesn't scale up well to a full-sized processor, blenders are too fast. Scaling up: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#scale Best Keith Best, Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Moran Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:46 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org; sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question I think (but I'm not sure) that methanol will evaporate at 140, is that correct? If it is, then keeping the temp below that would become very important too. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Thomas Kelly Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 6:39 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Mike, Test batches can be difficult .. well worth the effort. Blenders provide excellent agitation, but it is difficult to maintain the proper temp. PET bottles allow one to maintain temp better, but agitation may be inadequate. It is important to maintain temp even if you must interupt agitation. Suggestion: Achieve the temp of 130F, blend for 5 minutes, check temp If necessary
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Thanks Jim, that is very helpful and I'll be sure to monitor my temps closely as I blend. I thought maybe there was a chance that it would hold the same temp for that reason, but would never have guessed a temp increase. James Pfeiffer wrote: Hey Mike. I'm a novice too but, for what it's worth, in my first 10 test batches in a blender I have gotten a pretty substantial temperature increase during mixing - between 10F and 20F increase depending on how long I mixed the batch (from 25 to 45 minutes) and whether it was my first, 2nd or 3rd batch of the evening (basically preheating the blender). In my first couple of batches I tried to insulate the blender with a towel because I was worried that the mixture would cool during blending. After I saw such significant temperature gains, I took off the towel. I believe that the temperature increase is due to friction of the blades - I don't know if it is an exothermic reaction. As I write this email, I'm running another test batch. the oil was heated to 148F before putting it into a cold blender. When I started processing, the mixture was 122F and 42 minutes later it is at 145F. I'm processing 40 minutes instead of the 20 to 30 minutes recommended on Journey-to-forever just because I'm trying to ensure a complete reaction. Hope that's useful. Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Hey thanks everyone for the advice, I'll try the hot water bath idea and hope for the best, just hope I don't get it too hot and evaporate my methanol... I'd really like for my first test batch to come out good. As for my atmospheric pressure, im not sure what it is, but I live in NW FL so i'm pretty darn close to sea level. as a side note, it's really hard to reply when I have the mailing list set to digest mode lol. Thomas Kelly wrote: Test batches can be difficult .. well worth the effort. Blenders provide excellent agitation, but it is difficult to maintain the proper temp. PET bottles allow one to maintain temp better, but agitation may be inadequate. It is important to maintain temp even if you must interupt agitation. Suggestion: Achieve the temp of 130F, blend for 5 minutes, check temp If necessary, carefully return the liquid to a container to be heated. Return to blender and repeat 2 (3?) more times I use a hot water bath for heating the mix. Do you have a pot big enough to fit the blender pitcher into? The pot would contain hot (~150F) water. Instead of pouring the hot mix back and forth you could simply place the pitcher from the blender, with top on, into the hot water bath to re-establish the 130F, blot dry and buzz it again. Good Luck, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Hello Mike Hey thanks everyone for the advice, I'll try the hot water bath idea and hope for the best, just hope I don't get it too hot and evaporate my methanol... I'd really like for my first test batch to come out good. As for my atmospheric pressure, im not sure what it is, but I live in NW FL so i'm pretty darn close to sea level. as a side note, it's really hard to reply when I have the mailing list set to digest mode lol. Hard to follow the discussions too. You should try this: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg21651.html Best way to handle mailing lists, and any email. Best Keith Thomas Kelly wrote: Test batches can be difficult .. well worth the effort. Blenders provide excellent agitation, but it is difficult to maintain the proper temp. PET bottles allow one to maintain temp better, but agitation may be inadequate. It is important to maintain temp even if you must interupt agitation. Suggestion: Achieve the temp of 130F, blend for 5 minutes, check temp If necessary, carefully return the liquid to a container to be heated. Return to blender and repeat 2 (3?) more times I use a hot water bath for heating the mix. Do you have a pot big enough to fit the blender pitcher into? The pot would contain hot (~150F) water. Instead of pouring the hot mix back and forth you could simply place the pitcher from the blender, with top on, into the hot water bath to re-establish the 130F, blot dry and buzz it again. Good Luck, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
I was just gonna take it out of digest mode and have everything from this list go straight to a folder that I just made but I think that's basically what the link is saying to do, so thanks :) Keith Addison wrote: div class=moz-text-flowed style=font-family: -moz-fixedHello Mike Hey thanks everyone for the advice, I'll try the hot water bath idea and hope for the best, just hope I don't get it too hot and evaporate my methanol... I'd really like for my first test batch to come out good. As for my atmospheric pressure, im not sure what it is, but I live in NW FL so i'm pretty darn close to sea level. as a side note, it's really hard to reply when I have the mailing list set to digest mode lol. Hard to follow the discussions too. You should try this: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg21651.html Best way to handle mailing lists, and any email. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Thanks Tom and Keith for your responses. Have you not gotten complete reactions on 1L test batches run at 130F (or higher) in a blender for 20 - 30 minutes? You are using new, unused veg oil? Tom - I am using new, unused soybean oil.- I was intially trying different KOH concentrations because I was not passing the wash test; I assumed that this was due to better-than-expected KOH quality (I only received a represenative Certificate of Analysis with the product, not a batch assay). I did not do the methanol test which, in retrospect, was a mistake. As I reduced KOH concentration, my wash test results worsened and the methanol test indicated incomplete reactions so I reversed course and began increasing KOH concentration.- I found that I can pass the methanol test with higher KOH concentration (5.9 g/L 6.1 g/L). I have not tried a titration yet because I am using fresh oil. Both 5.9 and 6.1 g/L appear to be too high because that concentration yields a complete reaction and when washed separates reasonably quickly but the wash results in 1/4 to 1/2 of emulsion, some of which will break after a couple of days leaving behind chunks of soapy crud - I ran another batch at 5.8 g/L last night taking extra precaution with measurement and clean glassware; I allowed the glycerine to settle out for 18 hours in a separatory funnel. Unfortunately this batch failed the methanol test (there is a bubble of undissolved oil about 0.5 cm in diamter) and subsequently failed the wash test (fairly quick separation into an oil fraction and what appears to be a homogeneous emulsion fraction. - w.r.t. Are you guessing? - I have not reduced processing time only because I wanted to take that variable out of the mix; I will mix another batch using 5.9 g/L for 20 - 30 minutes; if I pass the methanol test, can I assume that I'm getting a complete reaction? - Regarding measurements: + I am still using a simple Ohaus triple beam balance accurate to only 0.1g+ I purchased lab-quality glassware for volumetric measurements+ I began blending methoxide in larger quantities to try to improve weighing accuracy- At this point, I think I have isolated the source of my wash problems to: (1) incomplete separation of glycerin (I just purchased a separatory funnel that will accomodate my test batches to eliminate this problem... I didn't have the sep funnel for those batches) (2) too much KOH (in the case of the 6.1 g/L batch)or, (3) water contamination in my methanol or KOH Subsequent wash tests often pass after the initial failure, albeit with reduced yield. Presumably some of the fuel was emulsified and lost. I will make my next batch using a different methanol supply to see if that improves results. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 07:56:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Jim, As I write this email, I'm running another test batch. the oil was heated to 148F before putting it into a cold blender. When I started processing, the mixture was 122F and 42 minutes later it is at 145F. I'm processing 40 minutes instead of the 20 to 30 minutes recommended on Journey-to-forever just because I'm trying to ensure a complete reaction. Have you not gotten complete reactions on 1L test batches run at 130F (or higher) in a blender for 20 - 30 minutes? You are using new, unused veg oil? Tom - Original Message - From: James Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org; biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 12:26 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Hey Mike. I'm a novice too but, for what it's worth, in my first 10 test batches in a blender I have gotten a pretty substantial temperature increase during mixing - between 10F and 20F increase depending on how long I mixed the batch (from 25 to 45 minutes) and whether it was my first, 2nd or 3rd batch of the evening (basically preheating the blender). In my first couple of batches I tried to insulate the blender with a towel because I was worried that the mixture would cool during blending. After I saw such significant temperature gains, I took off the towel. I believe that the temperature increase is due to friction of the blades - I don't know if it is an exothermic reaction. As I write this email, I'm running another test batch. the oil was heated to 148F before putting it into a cold blender. When I started processing, the mixture was 122F and 42 minutes later it is at 145F. I'm processing 40 minutes instead of the 20 to 30 minutes recommended on Journey-to-forever just because I'm trying to ensure a complete reaction. Hope that's useful. Jim Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:49:05 +0900 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel testbatch
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
your temps are getting very close to where the methanol will start to boil not something you want to happen,,, esp in your kitchen(been there) incomplete reaction,, boiling mess to clean up not pretty kelly Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:33:58 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Thanks Jim, that is very helpful and I'll be sure to monitor my temps closely as I blend. I thought maybe there was a chance that it would hold the same temp for that reason, but would never have guessed a temp increase. James Pfeiffer wrote: Hey Mike. I'm a novice too but, for what it's worth, in my first 10 test batches in a blender I have gotten a pretty substantial temperature increase during mixing - between 10F and 20F increase depending on how long I mixed the batch (from 25 to 45 minutes) and whether it was my first, 2nd or 3rd batch of the evening (basically preheating the blender). In my first couple of batches I tried to insulate the blender with a towel because I was worried that the mixture would cool during blending. After I saw such significant temperature gains, I took off the towel. I believe that the temperature increase is due to friction of the blades - I don't know if it is an exothermic reaction.As I write this email, I'm running another test batch. the oil was heated to 148F before putting it into a cold blender. When I started processing, the mixture was 122F and 42 minutes later it is at 145F. I'm processing 40 minutes instead of the 20 to 30 minutes recommended on Journey-to-forever just because I'm trying to ensure a complete reaction.Hope that's useful.Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Back to work after baby–how do you know when you’re ready? http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=5797498ocid=T067MSN40A0701A -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080430/db2d4023/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
if your oil is getting to 148 as your earlier post said you may have boiled off some of the meth and that would account for your problems From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:13:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Thanks Tom and Keith for your responses. Have you not gotten complete reactions on 1L test batches run at 130F (or higher) in a blender for 20 - 30 minutes? You are using new, unused veg oil? Tom - I am using new, unused soybean oil.- I was intially trying different KOH concentrations because I was not passing the wash test; I assumed that this was due to better-than-expected KOH quality (I only received a represenative Certificate of Analysis with the product, not a batch assay). I did not do the methanol test which, in retrospect, was a mistake. As I reduced KOH concentration, my wash test results worsened and the methanol test indicated incomplete reactions so I reversed course and began increasing KOH concentration.- I found that I can pass the methanol test with higher KOH concentration (5.9 g/L 6.1 g/L). I have not tried a titration yet because I am using fresh oil. Both 5.9 and 6.1 g/L appear to be too high because that concentration yields a complete reaction and when washed separates reasonably quickly but the wash results in 1/4 to 1/2 of emulsion, some of which will break after a couple of days leaving behind chunks of soapy crud - I ran another batch at 5.8 g/L last night taking extra precaution with measurement and clean glassware; I allowed the glycerine to settle out for 18 hours in a separatory funnel. Unfortunately this batch failed the methanol test (there is a bubble of undissolved oil about 0.5 cm in diamter) and subsequently failed the wash test (fairly quick separation into an oil fraction and what appears to be a homogeneous emulsion fraction. - w.r.t. Are you guessing? - I have not reduced processing time only because I wanted to take that variable out of the mix; I will mix another batch using 5.9 g/L for 20 - 30 minutes; if I pass the methanol test, can I assume that I'm getting a complete reaction? - Regarding measurements: + I am still using a simple Ohaus triple beam balance accurate to only 0.1g+ I purchased lab-quality glassware for volumetric measurements+ I began blending methoxide in larger quantities to try to improve weighing accuracy- At this point, I think I have isolated the source of my wash problems to: (1) incomplete separation of glycerin (I just purchased a separatory funnel that will accomodate my test batches to eliminate this problem... I didn't have the sep funnel for those batches) (2) too much KOH (in the case of the 6.1 g/L batch)or, (3) water contamination in my methanol or KOH Subsequent wash tests often pass after the initial failure, albeit with reduced yield. Presumably some of the fuel was emulsified and lost. I will make my next batch using a different methanol supply to see if that improves results.From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 07:56:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Jim, As I write this email, I'm running another test batch. the oil was heated to 148F before putting it into a cold blender. When I started processing, the mixture was 122F and 42 minutes later it is at 145F. I'm processing 40 minutes instead of the 20 to 30 minutes recommended on Journey-to-forever just because I'm trying to ensure a complete reaction. Have you not gotten complete reactions on 1L test batches run at 130F (or higher) in a blender for 20 - 30 minutes? You are using new, unused veg oil? Tom - Original Message - From: James Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org; biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 12:26 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Hey Mike. I'm a novice too but, for what it's worth, in my first 10 test batches in a blender I have gotten a pretty substantial temperature increase during mixing - between 10F and 20F increase depending on how long I mixed the batch (from 25 to 45 minutes) and whether it was my first, 2nd or 3rd batch of the evening (basically preheating the blender). In my first couple of batches I tried to insulate the blender with a towel because I was worried that the mixture would cool during blending. After I saw such significant temperature gains, I took off the towel. I believe that the temperature increase is due to friction of the blades - I don't know if it is an exothermic reaction. As I write this email, I'm running another test batch. the oil was heated to 148F before putting it into a cold blender. When I started processing, the mixture was 122F and 42 minutes later it is at 145F. I'm processing 40 minutes instead of the 20 to 30 minutes
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
I was just gonna take it out of digest mode and have everything from this list go straight to a folder that I just made Much better. Best Keith but I think that's basically what the link is saying to do, so thanks :) Keith Addison wrote: div class=moz-text-flowed style=font-family: -moz-fixedHello Mike Hey thanks everyone for the advice, I'll try the hot water bath idea and hope for the best, just hope I don't get it too hot and evaporate my methanol... I'd really like for my first test batch to come out good. As for my atmospheric pressure, im not sure what it is, but I live in NW FL so i'm pretty darn close to sea level. as a side note, it's really hard to reply when I have the mailing list set to digest mode lol. Hard to follow the discussions too. You should try this: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg21651.html Best way to handle mailing lists, and any email. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Mike, Test batches can be difficult .. well worth the effort. Blenders provide excellent agitation, but it is difficult to maintain the proper temp. PET bottles allow one to maintain temp better, but agitation may be inadequate. It is important to maintain temp even if you must interupt agitation. Suggestion: Achieve the temp of 130F, blend for 5 minutes, check temp If necessary, carefully return the liquid to a container to be heated. Return to blender and repeat 2 (3?) more times I use a hot water bath for heating the mix. Do you have a pot big enough to fit the blender pitcher into? The pot would contain hot (~150F) water. Instead of pouring the hot mix back and forth you could simply place the pitcher from the blender, with top on, into the hot water bath to re-establish the 130F, blot dry and buzz it again. I have returned to doing some test batches. I favor heating the mix in a PET bottle that has a wide mouth with a twist open/close top. Sport drink plastic bottles often have this feature. This allows me to limit methanol evaporation while heating the mix. I either twist the top to open while heating or I squeeze the bottle to decrease volume of air before closing and heating. The wide mouth and a funnel make it easy to add the liquid. I heat the mix in a hot water bath. Good Luck, Tom - Original Message - From: mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 3:57 PM Subject: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Hello everyone, my first post i want to apologize if this has been answered, but I have searched the archives and relevant sites without finding a clear answer. I've been reading the j2f howto for doing my first test batch with unused veg oil and a blender. I see that I'm suppose to pre-heat the oil before starting the process to 130 deg F, but everything else i read says I need to maintain that temperature which isn't possible without moving the oil back to another container that can be heated so I guess basically i'm asking, is that temp (130) required for the reaction or does it just aid in a faster reaction. Thanks Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
I think (but I'm not sure) that methanol will evaporate at 140, is that correct? If it is, then keeping the temp below that would become very important too. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Thomas Kelly Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 6:39 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Mike, Test batches can be difficult .. well worth the effort. Blenders provide excellent agitation, but it is difficult to maintain the proper temp. PET bottles allow one to maintain temp better, but agitation may be inadequate. It is important to maintain temp even if you must interupt agitation. Suggestion: Achieve the temp of 130F, blend for 5 minutes, check temp If necessary, carefully return the liquid to a container to be heated. Return to blender and repeat 2 (3?) more times I use a hot water bath for heating the mix. Do you have a pot big enough to fit the blender pitcher into? The pot would contain hot (~150F) water. Instead of pouring the hot mix back and forth you could simply place the pitcher from the blender, with top on, into the hot water bath to re-establish the 130F, blot dry and buzz it again. I have returned to doing some test batches. I favor heating the mix in a PET bottle that has a wide mouth with a twist open/close top. Sport drink plastic bottles often have this feature. This allows me to limit methanol evaporation while heating the mix. I either twist the top to open while heating or I squeeze the bottle to decrease volume of air before closing and heating. The wide mouth and a funnel make it easy to add the liquid. I heat the mix in a hot water bath. Good Luck, Tom - Original Message - From: mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 3:57 PM Subject: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Hello everyone, my first post i want to apologize if this has been answered, but I have searched the archives and relevant sites without finding a clear answer. I've been reading the j2f howto for doing my first test batch with unused veg oil and a blender. I see that I'm suppose to pre-heat the oil before starting the process to 130 deg F, but everything else i read says I need to maintain that temperature which isn't possible without moving the oil back to another container that can be heated so I guess basically i'm asking, is that temp (130) required for the reaction or does it just aid in a faster reaction. Thanks Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
I do my test batches in a pot on a coleman stove out in the garage so I can maintain the temp. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of mike Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 1:58 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Hello everyone, my first post i want to apologize if this has been answered, but I have searched the archives and relevant sites without finding a clear answer. I've been reading the j2f howto for doing my first test batch with unused veg oil and a blender. I see that I'm suppose to pre-heat the oil before starting the process to 130 deg F, but everything else i read says I need to maintain that temperature which isn't possible without moving the oil back to another container that can be heated so I guess basically i'm asking, is that temp (130) required for the reaction or does it just aid in a faster reaction. Thanks Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Hi Mike Heat the oil further to about 145 deg F to compensate for cooling. Hopefully the heat will be enough to last the duration of the process. You can also insulate your blender with buble wrap. Best, Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of mike Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 11:58 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Hello everyone, my first post i want to apologize if this has been answered, but I have searched the archives and relevant sites without finding a clear answer. I've been reading the j2f howto for doing my first test batch with unused veg oil and a blender. I see that I'm suppose to pre-heat the oil before starting the process to 130 deg F, but everything else i read says I need to maintain that temperature which isn't possible without moving the oil back to another container that can be heated so I guess basically i'm asking, is that temp (130) required for the reaction or does it just aid in a faster reaction. Thanks Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Methanol shouldn't vaporize until 148.46 deg F assuming the atmospheric pressure in you area is 760mmHg. Best, Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Moran Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:46 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org; sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question I think (but I'm not sure) that methanol will evaporate at 140, is that correct? If it is, then keeping the temp below that would become very important too. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Thomas Kelly Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 6:39 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Mike, Test batches can be difficult .. well worth the effort. Blenders provide excellent agitation, but it is difficult to maintain the proper temp. PET bottles allow one to maintain temp better, but agitation may be inadequate. It is important to maintain temp even if you must interupt agitation. Suggestion: Achieve the temp of 130F, blend for 5 minutes, check temp If necessary, carefully return the liquid to a container to be heated. Return to blender and repeat 2 (3?) more times I use a hot water bath for heating the mix. Do you have a pot big enough to fit the blender pitcher into? The pot would contain hot (~150F) water. Instead of pouring the hot mix back and forth you could simply place the pitcher from the blender, with top on, into the hot water bath to re-establish the 130F, blot dry and buzz it again. I have returned to doing some test batches. I favor heating the mix in a PET bottle that has a wide mouth with a twist open/close top. Sport drink plastic bottles often have this feature. This allows me to limit methanol evaporation while heating the mix. I either twist the top to open while heating or I squeeze the bottle to decrease volume of air before closing and heating. The wide mouth and a funnel make it easy to add the liquid. I heat the mix in a hot water bath. Good Luck, Tom - Original Message - From: mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 3:57 PM Subject: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Hello everyone, my first post i want to apologize if this has been answered, but I have searched the archives and relevant sites without finding a clear answer. I've been reading the j2f howto for doing my first test batch with unused veg oil and a blender. I see that I'm suppose to pre-heat the oil before starting the process to 130 deg F, but everything else i read says I need to maintain that temperature which isn't possible without moving the oil back to another container that can be heated so I guess basically i'm asking, is that temp (130) required for the reaction or does it just aid in a faster reaction. Thanks Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Methanol shouldn't vaporize until 148.46 deg F assuming the atmospheric pressure in you area is 760mmHg. That's the boiling point of methanol. It starts to evaporate at much lower temperatures than that. Temperature maintenance is one of the reasons we recommend a mini-processor rather than a blender: You can use a spare blender, or, better, make a simple Test-batch mini-processor. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor7.html Another reason is that processing in a blender doesn't scale up well to a full-sized processor, blenders are too fast. Scaling up: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#scale Best Keith Best, Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Moran Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:46 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org; sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question I think (but I'm not sure) that methanol will evaporate at 140, is that correct? If it is, then keeping the temp below that would become very important too. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Thomas Kelly Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 6:39 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Mike, Test batches can be difficult .. well worth the effort. Blenders provide excellent agitation, but it is difficult to maintain the proper temp. PET bottles allow one to maintain temp better, but agitation may be inadequate. It is important to maintain temp even if you must interupt agitation. Suggestion: Achieve the temp of 130F, blend for 5 minutes, check temp If necessary, carefully return the liquid to a container to be heated. Return to blender and repeat 2 (3?) more times I use a hot water bath for heating the mix. Do you have a pot big enough to fit the blender pitcher into? The pot would contain hot (~150F) water. Instead of pouring the hot mix back and forth you could simply place the pitcher from the blender, with top on, into the hot water bath to re-establish the 130F, blot dry and buzz it again. I have returned to doing some test batches. I favor heating the mix in a PET bottle that has a wide mouth with a twist open/close top. Sport drink plastic bottles often have this feature. This allows me to limit methanol evaporation while heating the mix. I either twist the top to open while heating or I squeeze the bottle to decrease volume of air before closing and heating. The wide mouth and a funnel make it easy to add the liquid. I heat the mix in a hot water bath. Good Luck, Tom - Original Message - From: mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 3:57 PM Subject: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Hello everyone, my first post i want to apologize if this has been answered, but I have searched the archives and relevant sites without finding a clear answer. I've been reading the j2f howto for doing my first test batch with unused veg oil and a blender. I see that I'm suppose to pre-heat the oil before starting the process to 130 deg F, but everything else i read says I need to maintain that temperature which isn't possible without moving the oil back to another container that can be heated so I guess basically i'm asking, is that temp (130) required for the reaction or does it just aid in a faster reaction. Thanks Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel or Byproduct Powered Boiler
Hello Will Hello everyone, I'm involved in a student run project to construct a 400 gallon batch reactor at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. We cannot use electricity as a source for our reaction heat, so we have been looking for a product or byproduct fueled boiler to heat water that will pass through a heat exchanger to heat the oil. Does anyone have any recommendations? I came across a product from Agsolutions that claims it can burn a mixture of product and byproduct, the ideal solution for us, but their site does not provide very much information. I also read a few threads in the infopop forum that mention the hazards of burning byproduct. :-) We've learnt not to set too much store by what one can read at the infopop forum. Nor even to go there, so I won't be checking it. I guess they're talking about acrolein? Depending on the temperature, the thermal degradation of vegetable oils is a polymerisation (200-300 deg C), a degradation of vegetable oils into acrolein, ketene, fatty acids then formation of alcanes, alcenes above 300 deg C and finally a formation of a gas-liquid mixture from around 500 deg C up. http://www.nf-2000.org/secure/Fair/F484.htm BioMatNet Item: FAIR-CT95-0627 - Advanced Combustion Research for Energy from Vegetable Oils (ACREVO) So acrolein is something you might get if you let your frying pan get out of control. Almost any kind of burner will burn hotter than that. The problem is to get the stuff to burn properly, and completely. As Jan Warnqvist said on the list, the glycerine can be extremely difficult to burn, since its urge to create polymeric compounds rather than vaporize is well known to anybody who have tried burning it. More information here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#burners Burning by-product properly will proibably take an industrial-type burner (something you can't make yourself), which seems to be your conclusion by going to Agsolutions. Only half a solution, IMHO. Other options, check these two sections on that same page above, on composting, which Tom suggested, and biogas: Glycerine and biogas http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#biogas Composting the by-product http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#compost Don't you think there's an advantage in integrating it with the growing process? Another possibility is to burn WVO rather than the by-product. Roger Sanders' Waste Oil Heater burns WVO well, you could use it with a heat-exchanger: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me11.html Roger might help you figure it out if you ask him. HTH. Best Keith Is our goal feasible? Thanks, -- William Kelleher Sophomore, Electrical Engineering University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel or Byproduct Powered Boiler
Hello Willie, there comes Jean Pains Reaktor for Compost to my mind.Depend naturally on availability of composting materials and probably a little burner to heat the water a bit more than the 60 degree cel. a composter can make As a second way could be Solarheat (only in summer?) Fritz - Original Message - From: Will Kelleher To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 2:38 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Biodiesel or Byproduct Powered Boiler Hello everyone, I'm involved in a student run project to construct a 400 gallon batch reactor at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. We cannot use electricity as a source for our reaction heat, so we have been looking for a product or byproduct fueled boiler to heat water that will pass through a heat exchanger to heat the oil. Does anyone have any recommendations? I came across a product from Agsolutions that claims it can burn a mixture of product and byproduct, the ideal solution for us, but their site does not provide very much information. I also read a few threads in the infopop forum that mention the hazards of burning byproduct. Is our goal feasible? Thanks, -- William Kelleher Sophomore, Electrical Engineering University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080210/94e4d2ae/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080210/29bd7edf/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel or Byproduct Powered Boiler
Will, I run my boiler (heat + domestic hot water) on 100% biodiesel. It is an oil-fired boiler. No conversion was necessary, just some minor adjustments. An oil-fired water heater might work well. Pre-heat the water via solar or compost heat as Fritz suggested to minimize fuel requirements. came across a product from Agsolutions that claims it can burn a mixture of product and byproduct, Last winter I split the glycerine mix using phosphoric acid (see JTF). - crude glycerine w excess methanol (compost) - potassium phosphate (fertilizer) - FFAs I blended the FFAs with biodiesel (product and coproduct?) and burned it in my boiler. It required a bit of preheat in order to have reliable starts. In splitting the mix, be sure to allow sufficient settling time and be careful not to include any glycerine with the FFA. Glycerine with coke up the nozzle on a boiler. I used 60-70%BD: 30-40%FFA Tom - Original Message - From: Will Kelleher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 2:38 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Biodiesel or Byproduct Powered Boiler Hello everyone, I'm involved in a student run project to construct a 400 gallon batch reactor at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. We cannot use electricity as a source for our reaction heat, so we have been looking for a product or byproduct fueled boiler to heat water that will pass through a heat exchanger to heat the oil. Does anyone have any recommendations? I came across a product from Agsolutions that claims it can burn a mixture of product and byproduct, the ideal solution for us, but their site does not provide very much information. I also read a few threads in the infopop forum that mention the hazards of burning byproduct. Is our goal feasible? Thanks, -- William Kelleher Sophomore, Electrical Engineering University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080210/94e4d2ae/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel storage - was Re: Best Country's for producing BD
That's very useful information Keith thank you. One of our local brewers took some BD made from canola and put it on a cookie sheet and left it sit all summer and he says it hasn't dried the way oil does. He can't see any difference in it other than the dust it collected. Your info is even more encouraging. Joe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you're in the US, yes. Usual industry advice (US NBB etc) is to use it within six months. They say many petroleum companies do not recommend storing petro-diesel for more than six months. Anyway the problem is that it's mostly soy biodiesel. Soy is not an ideal choice for making biodiesel, it's a semi-drying oil, the Iodine Value (IV) is too high - it oxidises, and polymerises. Biodiesel made from oils that fall within the EU standard, which sets an IV limit of 120, can be kept longer, or much longer. (The US ASTM standard doesn't specify an IV limit, maybe because a realistic limit would not be Big Soy-friendly.) We still have some of the first biodiesel we made, eight years ago, sealed in an HDPE flask with a bung, though it's been opened quite a few times, and it's still fine, nothing wrong with it. We have many samples of biodiesel we made and used years ago, but the samples are still okay. Never seen any bacterial decay or algae, and we've been all the while in places that get hot and very humid. Philip S. Okey gave this reply when this question was asked on the list before: In relation to the storage issues, from our experience it may not be much of an issue at all at the commercial level. We opened up a drum from our first reactor that was 4 years old a couple of weeks ago 45 gallons of it, it had been sitting outside in a steel drum with approximatly 5 inches of airspace over the esters (55 gal drum) so it has been through some record breaking winters and several high heat cycles unattended. Wven though this was a unintentional test is showing us some things. This batch was 50% soy 50% wvo procesessed at the same time. Supprised us... there was a little bit of cloudyness but not much at all, which was easily removed by simply stirring. One of our trucks has run almost a week on it with no change in performance from the freshest batch. HTH. Best Keith Rick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How about the best neighbourhood? Or the best village? It's the one you're in, right? The further away you get from that the less sense it makes. Same as food. Best Keith www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=50328src=rss 19 oktober 2007 Examining the World's Potential to Produce Biodiesel Researchers rank 226 countries according to their potential to make large volumes of biodiesel at low cost. by Madeline Fisher snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20071029/43cf37e6/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel storage - was Re: Best Country's for producing BD
Hello Rick Dear Keith, Along that same line, I have the immpression from the posts I have read that biodiesel is not real stable and would not store and ship that well. Isn't it best used when it is freash? If you're in the US, yes. Usual industry advice (US NBB etc) is to use it within six months. They say many petroleum companies do not recommend storing petro-diesel for more than six months. Anyway the problem is that it's mostly soy biodiesel. Soy is not an ideal choice for making biodiesel, it's a semi-drying oil, the Iodine Value (IV) is too high - it oxidises, and polymerises. Biodiesel made from oils that fall within the EU standard, which sets an IV limit of 120, can be kept longer, or much longer. (The US ASTM standard doesn't specify an IV limit, maybe because a realistic limit would not be Big Soy-friendly.) We still have some of the first biodiesel we made, eight years ago, sealed in an HDPE flask with a bung, though it's been opened quite a few times, and it's still fine, nothing wrong with it. We have many samples of biodiesel we made and used years ago, but the samples are still okay. Never seen any bacterial decay or algae, and we've been all the while in places that get hot and very humid. Philip S. Okey gave this reply when this question was asked on the list before: In relation to the storage issues, from our experience it may not be much of an issue at all at the commercial level. We opened up a drum from our first reactor that was 4 years old a couple of weeks ago 45 gallons of it, it had been sitting outside in a steel drum with approximatly 5 inches of airspace over the esters (55 gal drum) so it has been through some record breaking winters and several high heat cycles unattended. Wven though this was a unintentional test is showing us some things. This batch was 50% soy 50% wvo procesessed at the same time. Supprised us... there was a little bit of cloudyness but not much at all, which was easily removed by simply stirring. One of our trucks has run almost a week on it with no change in performance from the freshest batch. HTH. Best Keith Rick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How about the best neighbourhood? Or the best village? It's the one you're in, right? The further away you get from that the less sense it makes. Same as food. Best Keith www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=50328src=rss 19 oktober 2007 Examining the World's Potential to Produce Biodiesel Researchers rank 226 countries according to their potential to make large volumes of biodiesel at low cost. by Madeline Fisher snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in V6 diesel engine
Jason Mier wrote: thats because the old american diesels were poorly designed (being modified gassers) and burned out after a few sickly weak years. Robert's post pointed out the myth about the GM Diesels being modified Oldsmobile Gasoline engines. Oddly, wikipedia articles both perpetuate and dispel the myth. Most likely I hadn't seen a vehicle equipped with a GM V6 diesel is because this is an agriculture and oil field area. Full sized family sedans where expected to be able to work as hard as a pickup if need be and would have V8 power. Many around here do miss the availability pickups and full sized sedans with the GM 5.7 diesel. Just too far away from the big cities to buy imported models. Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA inc. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in V6 diesel engine
Zeke Yewdall wrote: I vaguely remember a 6 cylinder 4.3 liter version of the early 80's GM 5.7 liter diesel but alot of people don't consider those suitable for running diesel in, let alone biodiesel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmobile_Diesel_V6_engine supports your recollection. I never knew anyone who owned a vehicle so equipped. Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA inc. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in V6 diesel engine
thats because the old american diesels were poorly designed (being modified gassers) and burned out after a few sickly weak years. From: Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in V6 diesel engine Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 14:15:28 -0500 Zeke Yewdall wrote: I vaguely remember a 6 cylinder 4.3 liter version of the early 80's GM 5.7 liter diesel but alot of people don't consider those suitable for running diesel in, let alone biodiesel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmobile_Diesel_V6_engine supports your recollection. I never knew anyone who owned a vehicle so equipped. Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA inc. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ See what youre getting into before you go there http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in V6 diesel engine
you're being kind... Jason Mier wrote: thats because the old american diesels were poorly designed (being modified gassers) and burned out after a few sickly weak years. From: Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in V6 diesel engine Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 14:15:28 -0500 Zeke Yewdall wrote: I vaguely remember a 6 cylinder 4.3 liter version of the early 80's GM 5.7 liter diesel but alot of people don't consider those suitable for running diesel in, let alone biodiesel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmobile_Diesel_V6_engine supports your recollection. I never knew anyone who owned a vehicle so equipped. Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA inc. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ See what you’re getting into…before you go there http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in V6 diesel engine
- Original Message - From: Jason Mier [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thursday, August 16, 2007 1:55 pm Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in V6 diesel engine To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org thats because the old american diesels were poorly designed (being modified gassers) and burned out after a few sickly weak years. I'm away from my home computer right now, so replying is awkward . . . We've been over this before. The GM diesels were NOT modified gassers as is so often reported. They had the same external dimensions as the standard small block V8 so they could bolt up to the same engine mounts and transmissions, but an internal inspection reveals MUCH beefier construction. The reputation these engines gained for unreliability stemmed from several factors, some of which were design based, and others over which the engineers had little to no control. There were several engineering problems that included (but were not limited to) too few head bolts for the compression pressure (they used the same bolt pattern as the gasoline heads, which were designed for half the compression ratio!), poor quality one use head bolts that stretched after being torqued, insufficient radiator air exchange area for such a high compression pressure engine (which made them prone to overheating) and a rather delicate fuel injection pump (the Roosa Master, which was designed for an agricultural diesel) that did not tolerate bad fuel very well. We sometimes forget how bad the diesel fuel of the late 1970's and early 1980's actually WAS . . . Most people who bought cars with these engines abused their Olds diesels terribly. They neglected fuel filters, refused to let the engines warm up when it was cold outside, put poor quality fuel in the tank, towed boats through the desert, overheated them repeatedly, and when the head gaskets blew, often repaired the heads (or replaced them) using the same bolts as originally installed. However, re-installing stretched head bolts dramatically increased the likelihood that the engine would overheat again. Hence, the Olds diesel developed a bad reputation. Yet some of these engines have lasted a very long time and are still in use. These tend to be owned by people with experience running diesel engines, the engines were thus well treated, and they have proven reliable under those circumstances. Olds diesels also very economical to run. Yes, the Mercedes diesels with Bosch fuel injection pumps were more reliable in their day--but they were also MUCH more expensive, and the people who owned them maintained them accordingly. This is all in the archives, if you look! robert luis rabello ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in V6 diesel engine
VW, Audi, BMW and Mercedes all have a V6 diesel. If you are driving a fairly new Dodge sprinter (here in Europe known as the Mercedes Sprinter) it is possible to order a V6 diesel.Just my 2 cents worth.ArdenOn Aug 15, 2007 02:38 AM, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ummm. I don't know anyone who makes a V-6 diesel engine. What's it in, how old is it, and who manufactured it. On 8/14/07, fox mulder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello all, Has any had experience with using Biodiesel in V6 diesel engine? If so, is there any adverse effect? fox ___ Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in V6 diesel engine
Hmmm. I forgot about the old detroit diesels. Here in the US, the diesel sprinter vans that I've seen use an inline 6 instead of a V6. I vaguely remember a 6 cylinder 4.3 liter version of the early 80's GM 5.7 liter diesel but alot of people don't consider those suitable for running diesel in, let alone biodiesel. On 8/15/07, Arden Norder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: VW, Audi, BMW and Mercedes all have a V6 diesel. If you are driving a fairly new Dodge sprinter (here in Europe known as the Mercedes Sprinter) it is possible to order a V6 diesel. Just my 2 cents worth. Arden On Aug 15, 2007 02:38 AM, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ummm. I don't know anyone who makes a V-6 diesel engine. What's it in, how old is it, and who manufactured it. On 8/14/07, fox mulder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello all, Has any had experience with using Biodiesel in V6 diesel engine? If so, is there any adverse effect? fox ___ Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in V6 diesel engine
Hello all, Has any had experience with using Biodiesel in V6 diesel engine? If so, is there any adverse effect? fox ___ Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in V6 diesel engine
Ummm. I don't know anyone who makes a V-6 diesel engine. What's it in, how old is it, and who manufactured it. On 8/14/07, fox mulder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello all, Has any had experience with using Biodiesel in V6 diesel engine? If so, is there any adverse effect? fox ___ Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel in V6 diesel engine
Zeke Yewdall wrote: Ummm. I don't know anyone who makes a V-6 diesel engine. What's it in, how old is it, and who manufactured it. Some of the Detroit 2 cycle diesels where, are? available in a V6 configuration. I remember that my dad's first oil well servicing rig was power by a V6 71 DD. Wikipedia reveals that the V configuration was introduced in 1957. Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA inc. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel pH
If mixed thourghly the ions from the biodiesel will be more attracted to the water phase than the biodiesel phase. The pH value of the biodiesel will reflect in the water phase. So the water phase is the place to do the measurement in. With best regards Jan - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 4:54 PM Subject: [Biofuel] biodiesel pH hello, Yes, you are right Andres and Keith. I realise there is no need to measure pH of fresh oil, and to do a titration on the used oils instead, I was not specific enough. So when the wash water has a pH of 7, the biodiesel should also, as the ions should be equal in both solutions. is that right? By the way, whats virgin oil then? When doing the titration, as the 2 solutions of oil and methanol don't mix, do i just need to keep them vigorously shaken? Also would you suggest a pH meter for this step. Jan, When you say to use 10% biodiesel in 90% distiled water, mix, then let separate. Do you mean to test the biodiesel's or the water's pH? thankyou to all who replied. Josh. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel pH
Hello Josh hello, Yes, you are right Andres and Keith. I realise there is no need to measure pH of fresh oil, and to do a titration on the used oils instead, I was not specific enough. So when the wash water has a pH of 7, the biodiesel should also, as the ions should be equal in both solutions. is that right? By the way, whats virgin oil then? Not the same as fresh, new, unused, uncooked oil. Virgin oil is one thing with olive oil, another thing with coconut oil, but in all cases it refers to special processing or oil extraction methods. Most fresh oils are not virgin oils. When doing the titration, as the 2 solutions of oil and methanol Huh? don't mix, do i just need to keep them vigorously shaken? Also would you suggest a pH meter for this step. Newbie questions, answered many times before, and covered at the Journey to Forever website Biodiesel section. I believe you were warned about this when you joined. You're required to use the list resources please. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner Jan, When you say to use 10% biodiesel in 90% distiled water, mix, then let separate. Do you mean to test the biodiesel's or the water's pH? thankyou to all who replied. Josh. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel compatible gravity-fed filter?
Hello Derick How long does it normally take the cloudy biodiesel to clear, without using the filter? Best Keith Hello Matt I have used a under the sink type water filter for experimental purposes. it has a 1 fitting on both sides. I used a 2 micron carbon filter element for the micron size only. the string filter was 20 micron. I put freshly processed and washed cloudy bio in and got crystal clear fuel out. I have no idea what the carbon does to the mix pros or cons. maybe some one on the list has some insight. Good luck Derick. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Wilson Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 12:46 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel compatible gravity-fed filter? Thanks, Keith! Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Matt Why bother? Not worth the trouble. If you make your biodiesel properly, everything that a filter might remove will be in the by-product layer, not the biodiesel. So settle it properly, separate it carefully, and use it. No need to filter it. No need to filter the oil first either, as these two previous posts show: http://snipurl.com/1j20b Re: [Biofuel] Filtering - was Re: Vegtable oil sources... http://snipurl.com/1j20c Re: [Biofuel] Filtering - was Re: Vegtable oil sources... Best Keith Hey all, I would like to filter our biodiesel between our drying/storage 55 gal. drum and the truck. We are using gravity to fill jugs, then use the jugs to fill the tank- we don't have a dedicated fuel pump. I am having a hard time finding an in-line 3/4 fuel filter that is biodiesel compatible but still filters to around 5-10 microns without needing pump pressure. I purchased a Goldenrod no. 495 gravity filter, but they only suggest it for B20. Bio-tek's High alcohol filter works with B100, but I was told that it needs the pressure of a pump. Any ideas, or am I chasing a mythical beast? Thanks, Matt ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel compatible gravity-fed filter?
Well that has a long explanation. if you talk about summer here 90 deg + just 2 to 3 days works well in the winter it can take much longer since it has a tendency to get a little thick. Take a soda bottle sample and put it in the window or worm place if it doesn't get better there is something wrong with the process you did. I have had batches that pass all the quality tests but I have a layer between the clear fuel and the water. I have tried to dose this muck with vinegar or salt no good . Heated the crap out of it still no good. I also tried to re treat the glop and it just doesn't want to work. But that is only every now and again. Seems to depend on the source. And as I said only a thin layer 1/4 1n a 120m liter batch. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 4:19 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel compatible gravity-fed filter? Hello Derick How long does it normally take the cloudy biodiesel to clear, without using the filter? Best Keith Hello Matt I have used a under the sink type water filter for experimental purposes. it has a 1 fitting on both sides. I used a 2 micron carbon filter element for the micron size only. the string filter was 20 micron. I put freshly processed and washed cloudy bio in and got crystal clear fuel out. I have no idea what the carbon does to the mix pros or cons. maybe some one on the list has some insight. Good luck Derick. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Wilson Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 12:46 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel compatible gravity-fed filter? Thanks, Keith! Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Matt Why bother? Not worth the trouble. If you make your biodiesel properly, everything that a filter might remove will be in the by-product layer, not the biodiesel. So settle it properly, separate it carefully, and use it. No need to filter it. No need to filter the oil first either, as these two previous posts show: http://snipurl.com/1j20b Re: [Biofuel] Filtering - was Re: Vegtable oil sources... http://snipurl.com/1j20c Re: [Biofuel] Filtering - was Re: Vegtable oil sources... Best Keith Hey all, I would like to filter our biodiesel between our drying/storage 55 gal. drum and the truck. We are using gravity to fill jugs, then use the jugs to fill the tank- we don't have a dedicated fuel pump. I am having a hard time finding an in-line 3/4 fuel filter that is biodiesel compatible but still filters to around 5-10 microns without needing pump pressure. I purchased a Goldenrod no. 495 gravity filter, but they only suggest it for B20. Bio-tek's High alcohol filter works with B100, but I was told that it needs the pressure of a pump. Any ideas, or am I chasing a mythical beast? Thanks, Matt ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel compatible gravity-fed filter?
Hello Matt Why bother? Not worth the trouble. If you make your biodiesel properly, everything that a filter might remove will be in the by-product layer, not the biodiesel. So settle it properly, separate it carefully, and use it. No need to filter it. No need to filter the oil first either, as these two previous posts show: http://snipurl.com/1j20b Re: [Biofuel] Filtering - was Re: Vegtable oil sources... http://snipurl.com/1j20c Re: [Biofuel] Filtering - was Re: Vegtable oil sources... Best Keith Hey all, I would like to filter our biodiesel between our drying/storage 55 gal. drum and the truck. We are using gravity to fill jugs, then use the jugs to fill the tank- we don't have a dedicated fuel pump. I am having a hard time finding an in-line 3/4 fuel filter that is biodiesel compatible but still filters to around 5-10 microns without needing pump pressure. I purchased a Goldenrod no. 495 gravity filter, but they only suggest it for B20. Bio-tek's High alcohol filter works with B100, but I was told that it needs the pressure of a pump. Any ideas, or am I chasing a mythical beast? Thanks, Matt ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel compatible gravity-fed filter?
Pushing a fluid with the viscosity BD can have through a 10 micron pore size filter just requires some pressure or a lot of time take your pick. However there is nothing stopping you from rigging up a block and tackle to the top of the barn and hoisting the barrel up 40 or 50 feet to give you some head pressure. Joe Matt Wilson wrote: Hey all, I would like to filter our biodiesel between our drying/storage 55 gal. drum and the truck. We are using gravity to fill jugs, then use the jugs to fill the tank- we don't have a dedicated fuel pump. I am having a hard time finding an in-line 3/4 fuel filter that is biodiesel compatible but still filters to around 5-10 microns without needing pump pressure. I purchased a Goldenrod no. 495 gravity filter, but they only suggest it for B20. Bio-tek's High alcohol filter works with B100, but I was told that it needs the pressure of a pump. Any ideas, or am I chasing a mythical beast? Thanks, Matt Ahhh...imagining that irresistible new car smell? Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48245/*http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc=X3oDMTE1YW1jcXJ2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3LWNhcnM- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel compatible gravity-fed filter?
Thanks, Keith! Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Matt Why bother? Not worth the trouble. If you make your biodiesel properly, everything that a filter might remove will be in the by-product layer, not the biodiesel. So settle it properly, separate it carefully, and use it. No need to filter it. No need to filter the oil first either, as these two previous posts show: http://snipurl.com/1j20b Re: [Biofuel] Filtering - was Re: Vegtable oil sources... http://snipurl.com/1j20c Re: [Biofuel] Filtering - was Re: Vegtable oil sources... Best Keith Hey all, I would like to filter our biodiesel between our drying/storage 55 gal. drum and the truck. We are using gravity to fill jugs, then use the jugs to fill the tank- we don't have a dedicated fuel pump. I am having a hard time finding an in-line 3/4 fuel filter that is biodiesel compatible but still filters to around 5-10 microns without needing pump pressure. I purchased a Goldenrod no. 495 gravity filter, but they only suggest it for B20. Bio-tek's High alcohol filter works with B100, but I was told that it needs the pressure of a pump. Any ideas, or am I chasing a mythical beast? Thanks, Matt ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - Ahhh...imagining that irresistible new car smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process
Currently with the way it is anyone who wants to make ethyl esters pretty much has to grow ther own ethanol, and of course from a sustainability perspective it is still the best approach but with all the hype I am hearing about ethanol and E85 and with all the big investment all over the place ( vis Riverstone- Carlyle in Alberta) I think anyhdrous ethanol may be available to purchase commercially one day soon. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process
Hello Dennis Keith, I am interested in developing strains of bacteria for cellulosic ethanol production. Do you have a list of up to date and pertinent references I could have? The list of references we do have hasn't been updated for years because there's nothing new to add, it was just around the corner then and it's still just around the corner (like biodiesel from algae). Unless you want to use the old Fuel From Sawdust method with concentrated sulphuric acid: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_sawdust.html Fuel From Sawdust http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#cellulose Ethanol from cellulose I suppose ARS is one of the best sources for research: http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/search.htm ARS : News Events ARS News Search for ethanol +cellulose (without the quotes). Eg.: http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2007/070412.htm Single Microbe Yields Ethanol, Plus Eco-Friendly Glue / April 12, 2007 Squeezing more ethanol from cellulose-the basic material from which all plants are made-is still a lofty goal for scientists. The process uses expensive enzymes that are limited in their ability to convert stubbornly rigid plant cells walls into fuels. Good luck. Keith thanks, Dennis - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Pagandai Pannirselvam To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 2:03 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process Respected Keith I am sure about the the use of ethanol, wish to send all the relevant work available from Brazil so that your experiences will be reall sucessful. Thanking you sd Pannirselvam P.V 2007/4/17, Keith Addison mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]: ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process
Joe, In US (elsewhere?) ethanol must be rendered unfit for consumption. For example: Add 2 gal of unleaded gasoline to 100 gal of ethanol. Gasoline may make the ethanol unfit for making biodiesel. It could be denatured with methanol which would be good for making biodiesel, but not so good for use in cars. The question is: Will there be enough demand for fuel grade ethanol denatured with methanol? Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 11:22 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process Currently with the way it is anyone who wants to make ethyl esters pretty much has to grow ther own ethanol, and of course from a sustainability perspective it is still the best approach but with all the hype I am hearing about ethanol and E85 and with all the big investment all over the place ( vis Riverstone- Carlyle in Alberta) I think anyhdrous ethanol may be available to purchase commercially one day soon. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process
Keith, I am interested in developing strains of bacteria for cellulosic ethanol production. Do you have a list of up to date and pertinent references I could have? thanks, Dennis - Original Message - From: Pagandai Pannirselvam To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 2:03 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process Respected Keith I am sure about the the use of ethanol, wish to send all the relevant work available from Brazil so that your experiences will be reall sucessful. Thanking you sd Pannirselvam P.V 2007/4/17, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos e Processos DEQ – Departamento de Engenharia Química CT – Centro de Tecnologia / UFRN, Lagoa Nova – Natal/RN Campus Universitário. CEP: 59.072-970 http://pannirbr.googlepages.com/gpecufrnhomepage 3215-3769 ramal 210 casa 3215-1557 -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process
Dear Pannir Respected Keith I am sure about the the use of ethanol, wish to send all the relevant work available from Brazil so that your experiences will be reall sucessful. I'd be most grateful for any information you can provide on this. But I can't read Portuguese! :-( Regards Keith Thanking you sd Pannirselvam P.V 2007/4/17, Keith Addison mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]: -- Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos e Processos DEQ ñ Departamento de Engenharia QuÌmica CT ñ Centro de Tecnologia / UFRN, Lagoa Nova ñ Natal/RN Campus Universit·rio. CEP: 59.072-970 http://pannirbr.googlepages.com/gpecufrnhomepagehttp://pannirbr.goo glepages.com/gpecufrnhomepage 3215-3769 ramal 210 casa 3215-1557 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process
open process for several billions farmer to be free and >independent of the big blues globalised market .This the natural way >for green future for all , where all are included to have the >sustainable green fuel . > > You may be right when you say ... some novel modification can >be possible to make more environmentally friendly our old two stage >proven JFT BioD process. I think so too, but not if it means trading in some of its many advantages (KISS, for instance). >Thank you for your response and I look forward to discussion and >enlightenment by list members as this story unfolds. > Best Wishes to You, > >Tom > >- Original Message - >From: mailto:mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Pagandai Pannirselvam >To: mailto:mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org>mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org >Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:09 PM >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process > > Dear Cris,Thomas Kelly,Tom ,KEN , > > From Prof Pannir,Ufrn, BRAZIL > >2007/4/10, Thomas Kelly mailto:mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > >Chris, > I agree with you when you say > I can#39;t see anything new about their process and it doesn#39;t seem to >make any sense.. > > > > Pannirbr>>>>>>Certainly the results compared to the conventional >process has merit and has more sense , as the cost of separation of >good grade glycerol involve more than 50 percent the total cost of >the BioD production. But I don#39;t think that#39;s of much interest to small-scale producers. I don#39;t think it#39;s easy to sell small-scale production of glycerin, even if it#39;s refined, so this is really only a concern for large-scale producers. Tom said previously the cost of phosphoric acid for separating the by-product was covered by the recovered methanol, and you end up with crude glycerin that accelerates a compost pile or improves production of an anaerobic digester. Good enough I think. snip> >The project has merit surely , but have very poor content as they >do not wish to share the technical information. That might be the reason, or they might just be fishing for financial support and don#39;t really have anything much except some preliminary results, the claims they make could be true or could be just theory, or a mix of the two. I think we should probably be sceptical. We#39;ve seen so many things like this, and so few of them ever emerge into practice. I doubt this process will contribute much to a sustainable green future. snip> > I wish also to get the comments as our list has so many members >from several countries , only very few members are involved here in >recent biofuel list discussions. Robert said something similar recently. It has been quieter than usual, broader participation and wider discussion would be welcome, as always. All best Keith >It is the fact that It reminds us to be of a poorly written >science project as this is because the information of the novel >technological process are valuable , but the farming community >is one who share the knowledge freely.Surely Keith know well how >hard for him to get the new BioD process information published in >JFT, but incomplete information are always available and here too >the same is true .However the project has good future even for >small scale production in farm scale as very good results have been >reported for the product quality of BiOD, glycerol,recovered alcohol > > > The New Process appears to be the two stage acid/base process. >Stage One involves esterification of fatty acids > methyl esters. Stage >Two is the transesterification of mono-, di-, triglycerides > methyl >esters. > > >Pannnir >>>>> The combined reaction and separation known as >reactive distillation is an advanced novel innovative system of >chemical engineering process engineering subjects.I am sure that l >the small scale production in farm can do benefit using this novel >methods not as it is as this is complex units , but can be modified >if one wish to get recovery of alcohol and glycerol > > > > I don#39;t know why filtration is included in each stage prior to washing. > > > > > >Pannir >>>>>>> the product glycerol combine with ester , making the >reverse reaction.If you can understand also the diverse di >glycerol byproducts making the biofuel with less quality.The better >the separation as soon this is formed better the yield , product >quality. > > > > I#39;m also c
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process
Respected Keith I am sure about the the use of ethanol, wish to send all the relevant work available from Brazil so that your experiences will be reall sucessful. Thanking you sd Pannirselvam P.V 2007/4/17, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos e Processos DEQ – Departamento de Engenharia Química CT – Centro de Tecnologia / UFRN, Lagoa Nova – Natal/RN Campus Universitário. CEP: 59.072-970 http://pannirbr.googlepages.com/gpecufrnhomepage 3215-3769 ramal 210 casa 3215-1557 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process
Hi, Keith, Ken and Tom Tom there is no for your apology, as we can have different views. We, Acadamics , engineers , researchers need to learn a lot from all the people like Keith and Tom who are very practical always work very near to the process problems. What always happens to all the new and old engineers who are good in process synthesis , but lack always and also very bad in critical analysis of the project with regard to materials used, the complexity and viability. Thus several millions money spent by university research are all going as a waste such as supercritical extraction for BiD good results at laboratory , but no use for largescale use. The combination of practical and concepts based on the theory need to go together in this list to evolve a better catalysts, prcoessos, equipments, process seperations. The reactive distillation means doing the reaction together with the distillation and I agree with Keith that, yet this can be only research level. After Keith explanation about mixing by recirculation is an effective way to reduce the product revers reaction of glycerol , moreover , the sediment ion of glycerol , made possible means a better way to filter out the glycerol , thus preventing unwanted byproducts. Thus understanding of the process is vital to operate the plant. At the beginning mixing can favour the reaction , the can be slow so that the product can be pulled out of reaction. I also agree with Keith , there is no point to bother about glycerol recovery as this can be easily used as liquid soap , sold soap , combustible , , for bio gas production , even as the source for rural wood energy and hence the high cost of recovery to get ultra purity glycerol is out of question as far as the small scale process are concerned. Yet I have one one question to Keith regarding the use of Methanol instead of ethanol. Will this two stage process can be possible with ethanol only or the mixture of methanol and ethanol can be possible as methanol is not ready avaialable in several developing countries. let us again wish others do participate actively in our list, as this list used to be very dynamic , let us come back all again to make this as leading one . Kind regards to all Pannirselvam 2007/4/12, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi Tom, Pannir and all Pannirselvam P.V My apologies to the authors of the study. My criticisms Sounds like a poorly written science project and it doesn't seem to make any sense sprouted from my own ignorance. I am doing my homework on the subject of reactive distillation. I must admit to a bias that may compromise my acceptance of any new process. I like the idea of being able to make what I believe to be high quality biodiesel, myself, on my own spot of land, using little more than what I can scavenge from my local scrap metal dump. I think that's the main point. It's accessible to virtually anyone anywhere. A new process that goes beyond the reach of an average Tom and puts control back into the hands of big business may be new, but not necessarily better. It looks like an unholy marriage of the acid-base process and the famous supercritical methanol process (Saka et al) that was getting everyone excited a few years back - methanol at 5080 PSI and 350-400C. Um, no thankyou, I don't want big business doing that anywhere near me, let alone backyarders. High temperature + high pressure + lots of methanol as with this new process is likely to kill someone, I fear. As you said: The new generation biofuel is like the new wave social web2 , the free open process for several billions farmer to be free and independent of the big blues globalised market .This the natural way for green future for all , where all are included to have the sustainable green fuel . You may be right when you say ... some novel modification can be possible to make more environmentally friendly our old two stage proven JFT BioD process. I think so too, but not if it means trading in some of its many advantages (KISS, for instance). Thank you for your response and I look forward to discussion and enlightenment by list members as this story unfolds. Best Wishes to You, Tom - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Pagandai Pannirselvam To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:09 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process Dear Cris,Thomas Kelly,Tom ,KEN , From Prof Pannir,Ufrn, BRAZIL 2007/4/10, Thomas Kelly mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Chris, I agree with you when you say I can't see anything new about their process and it doesn't seem to make any sense.. PannirbrCertainly the results compared to the conventional process has merit and has more sense , as the cost of separation of good grade glycerol involve more than 50 percent the total cost
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process
Pannir, Tom I don't know why filtration is included in each stage prior to washing. Pannir the product glycerol combine with ester , making the reverse reaction.If you can understand also the diverse di glycerol byproducts making the biofuel with less quality.The better the separation as soon this is formed better the yield , product quality. I understand that removing the glycerol will pull the reaction towards ester formation. Is there a way to remove the glycerol and diverse di glcerol byproducts (by filtration) as they form without also removing methanol and caustic? Does filtering refer to something different from simply draining the glycerine layer? Tom - Original Message - From: Pagandai Pannirselvam To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:09 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process Dear Cris,Thomas Kelly,Tom ,KEN , From Prof Pannir,Ufrn, BRAZIL 2007/4/10, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Chris, I agree with you when you say I can't see anything new about their process and it doesn't seem to make any sense.. PannirbrCertainly the results compared to the conventional process has merit and has more sense , as the cost of separation of good grade glycerol involve more than 50 percent the total cost of the BioD production.It is the fact that It reminds us to be of a poorly written science project as this is because the information of the novel technological process are valuable , but the farming community is one who share the knowledge freely.Surely Keith know well how hard for him to get the new BioD process information published in JFT, but incomplete information are always available and here too the same is true .However the project has good future even for small scale production in farm scale as very good results have been reported for the product quality of BiOD, glycerol,recovered alcohol The New Process appears to be the two stage acid/base process. Stage One involves esterification of fatty acids methyl esters. Stage Two is the transesterification of mono-, di-, triglycerides methyl esters. Pannnir The combined reaction and separation known as reactive distillation is an advanced novel innovative system of chemical engineering process engineering subjects.I am sure that l the small scale production in farm can do benefit using this novel methods not as it is as this is complex units , but can be modified if one wish to get recovery of alcohol and glycerol I don't know why filtration is included in each stage prior to washing. Pannir the product glycerol combine with ester , making the reverse reaction.If you can understand also the diverse di glycerol byproducts making the biofuel with less quality.The better the separation as soon this is formed better the yield , product quality. I'm also confused about Distilling the washed and dried Crude Biodiesel to get Biodiesel. While it is possible to recover methanol from the glycerine mix and even from the unwashed biodiesel by distillation, washing removes any excess methanol, so I can't imagine why one would distill washed and dried BD. PannirbrReally we need more information and I can agree with you. I think it is not a simple distillation , but extractive distillation to recover back diverse di ,tri esters formed.If you remember that this process new , the co products need to be recovered as the catalyst is yet not an perfect one. The 30 minute reaction time referred (as an advantage of the New Process to is only for Stage One (acid esterification). There is still a 1 -2 hour base catalyzed transesterification (Stage Two). It also claims that there is no stirring . I suspect this is wrong. Pannirbr I think,this is possible , eventhough not enough information is yet known , if one understand well what is reactive distillation some patented related with the processare known one. If you combine distillation and reaction, the products , alcohol and water are separated simultaneously .Several patented process does prove that it is possible to get results with out the use of mechanical agitator's , but thermal energy are used , which can be recovered , thus the process is designed to be more energy efficient It says that the Classic Process cannot use soy, rapeseed, palm, coconut, sunflower, jatropa, recycled oil (WVO), or lard Wrong again. The acid containing oil as well as the water content are yet still technical problems , as the transesterification reaction using alkai catalyst are very sensitive in terms of yield and quality . It reminds me of a poorly written science
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process
Hi again Tom and Pannir Pannir, Tom I don't know why filtration is included in each stage prior to washing. Pannir the product glycerol combine with ester , making the reverse reaction.If you can understand also the diverse di glycerol byproducts making the biofuel with less quality.The better the separation as soon this is formed better the yield , product quality. I understand that removing the glycerol will pull the reaction towards ester formation. Is there a way to remove the glycerol and diverse di glcerol byproducts (by filtration) as they form without also removing methanol and caustic? Does filtering refer to something different from simply draining the glycerine layer? Our 90-litre processor allows a good proportion (maybe half) of the by-product to drop out and settle, with another proportion of it being recirculated much more slowly than the rest of what's being processed, which keeps that much methanol in action, and the GC tests showed 99+% ester content. See: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor10.html#settle Recirculation is fast in this processor. I add the first-stage methanol (slowly) and let it mix thoroughly with the WVO, which makes it look like milky coffee, and then I pour in 60ml of sulphuric acid at the top, which turns it chalky, and the colour change happens in about one second. So it mixes efficiently, but at the same time lots of by-product drops out as it's being formed. Simple processors that don't seem to allow for this can nonetheless get high-quality results even with single-stage base. So I don't think the reverse reaction from glycerin formation can be that much of a constraint. I can't see a need for multiple or any filtration steps or centrifuging or whatever to remove glycerin. All best Keith Tom - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Pagandai Pannirselvam To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:09 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process Dear Cris,Thomas Kelly,Tom ,KEN , From Prof Pannir,Ufrn, BRAZIL 2007/4/10, Thomas Kelly mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]: Chris, I agree with you when you say I can't see anything new about their process and it doesn't seem to make any sense.. PannirbrCertainly the results compared to the conventional process has merit and has more sense , as the cost of separation of good grade glycerol involve more than 50 percent the total cost of the BioD production.It is the fact that It reminds us to be of a poorly written science project as this is because the information of the novel technological process are valuable , but the farming community is one who share the knowledge freely.Surely Keith know well how hard for him to get the new BioD process information published in JFT, but incomplete information are always available and here too the same is true .However the project has good future even for small scale production in farm scale as very good results have been reported for the product quality of BiOD, glycerol,recovered alcohol The New Process appears to be the two stage acid/base process. Stage One involves esterification of fatty acids methyl esters. Stage Two is the transesterification of mono-, di-, triglycerides methyl esters. Pannnir The combined reaction and separation known as reactive distillation is an advanced novel innovative system of chemical engineering process engineering subjects.I am sure that l the small scale production in farm can do benefit using this novel methods not as it is as this is complex units , but can be modified if one wish to get recovery of alcohol and glycerol I don't know why filtration is included in each stage prior to washing. Pannir the product glycerol combine with ester , making the reverse reaction.If you can understand also the diverse di glycerol byproducts making the biofuel with less quality.The better the separation as soon this is formed better the yield , product quality. I'm also confused about Distilling the washed and dried Crude Biodiesel to get Biodiesel. While it is possible to recover methanol from the glycerine mix and even from the unwashed biodiesel by distillation, washing removes any excess methanol, so I can't imagine why one would distill washed and dried BD. PannirbrReally we need more information and I can agree with you. I think it is not a simple distillation , but extractive distillation to recover back diverse di ,tri esters formed.If you remember that this process new , the co products need to be recovered as the catalyst is yet not an perfect one. The 30 minute reaction time referred (as an advantage of the New Process to is only for Stage One (acid esterification). There is still a 1 -2 hour base catalyzed transesterification (Stage
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process
Keith, Pannir, and Everyone Else, Keith wrote: . it mixes efficiently, but at the same time lots of by-product drops out as it's being formed. Simple processors that don't seem to allow for this can nonetheless get high-quality results even with single-stage base. So I don't think the reverse reaction from glycerin formation can be that much of a constraint. I can't see a need for multiple or any filtration steps or centrifuging or whatever to remove glycerin. Agreed as long as there is excess methanol (20% vol/vol). If it was possible to remove glycerin without removing methanol and caustic, less methanol would be required; maybe shorter reaction time. I'm simply struggling with the idea that reactive distillation and filtration can provide advantages to homebrewers. How do we separate good grade glycerol using temperatures that are safe? I don't know much about reactive distillation, and maybe the process referred to as filtration is different from what I have in mind. I would like to hear more from anyone with knowledge about reactive distillation as it would apply to biodiesel production and what is involved in the process referred to as filtration. Best to All, Tom - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process Hi again Tom and Pannir Pannir, Tom I don't know why filtration is included in each stage prior to washing. Pannir the product glycerol combine with ester , making the reverse reaction.If you can understand also the diverse di glycerol byproducts making the biofuel with less quality.The better the separation as soon this is formed better the yield , product quality. I understand that removing the glycerol will pull the reaction towards ester formation. Is there a way to remove the glycerol and diverse di glcerol byproducts (by filtration) as they form without also removing methanol and caustic? Does filtering refer to something different from simply draining the glycerine layer? Our 90-litre processor allows a good proportion (maybe half) of the by-product to drop out and settle, with another proportion of it being recirculated much more slowly than the rest of what's being processed, which keeps that much methanol in action, and the GC tests showed 99+% ester content. See: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor10.html#settle Recirculation is fast in this processor. I add the first-stage methanol (slowly) and let it mix thoroughly with the WVO, which makes it look like milky coffee, and then I pour in 60ml of sulphuric acid at the top, which turns it chalky, and the colour change happens in about one second. So it mixes efficiently, but at the same time lots of by-product drops out as it's being formed. Simple processors that don't seem to allow for this can nonetheless get high-quality results even with single-stage base. So I don't think the reverse reaction from glycerin formation can be that much of a constraint. I can't see a need for multiple or any filtration steps or centrifuging or whatever to remove glycerin. All best Keith Tom - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Pagandai Pannirselvam To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:09 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process Dear Cris,Thomas Kelly,Tom ,KEN , From Prof Pannir,Ufrn, BRAZIL 2007/4/10, Thomas Kelly mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]: Chris, I agree with you when you say I can't see anything new about their process and it doesn't seem to make any sense.. PannirbrCertainly the results compared to the conventional process has merit and has more sense , as the cost of separation of good grade glycerol involve more than 50 percent the total cost of the BioD production.It is the fact that It reminds us to be of a poorly written science project as this is because the information of the novel technological process are valuable , but the farming community is one who share the knowledge freely.Surely Keith know well how hard for him to get the new BioD process information published in JFT, but incomplete information are always available and here too the same is true .However the project has good future even for small scale production in farm scale as very good results have been reported for the product quality of BiOD, glycerol,recovered alcohol The New Process appears to be the two stage acid/base process. Stage One involves esterification of fatty acids methyl esters. Stage Two is the transesterification of mono-, di-, triglycerides methyl esters. Pannnir The combined reaction and separation known as reactive distillation is an advanced novel innovative system of chemical engineering
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel processing plant
Hi Keith: Many thanks for your valuable response and suggestion. Roger Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: Hi Roger Hi Keith: Thanks for your answer. :-) It was a question. I haven't produce any liter of biodiesel yet but I'm in contact with the University of Agraria of Lima Peru who has developed a very and basic biodiesel plant in a lab and has made investigations about the market oil sources and the statistics of Peruvian Market needs. Actually the master of that project will be part of my company organization. I've studied a post graduate of nuclear engineer in Argentina and have other people with outstanding acomplishment who will work with me. Partnerts of other conuntries are wellcome if you are interested in this project. Any suggestion will be appreciate. Judging from what's happened to many other people, I don't think your qualifications and those of your partners will help you very much if you start in the wrong place. I suggest you start here: Where do I start? http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#start ... where it says Start with the process, NOT with the processor. The processor comes later. Which would you prefer - a failed batch of one litre or a failed batch of 1,000 litres? Learn how to make your biodiesel first. Follow the instructions, step by step. Study everything on that page and the next page and at the links in the text. It tells you everything you need to know. Anyway, why would you prefer a lab version of a biodiesel plant when you have ready access right here to processor designs that have been tried and tested by thousands of people in the real world? Also, a biodiesel plant making 1,000 litres a day is not small, that's far in excess of what would (or should) be needed by an individual, or by a sustainable farm. Is this to be a community-based project or simply a business for profit? The Biofuel mailing list is not seen as a source of free consultancy for commercial operations. It's not against commercial operations either, but its main focus is small-scale, local community level or individual projects. Thank you very much again and I apologise any mispelling. Here is a little difficult to practice my english. Your English is just fine, please don't be embarrassed about it. Best Keith Best regards Roger L. Cotrina Calle Juan Gris 230, Suite 303 San Borja -Lima Peru Phone: 51-1-226-0700 Cel: 51-1-9018-6300 Keith Addison escribió: Hello Roger Have you made any biodiesel yet? Best Keith Dear members: . Estimated friends: This is Roger Cotrina from Lima - Peru. I am gliding to install a small biodiesel plant to obtain 1,000 daily liters of biodiesel using oil of palm and recycled oils. May someone recommend to me some plant or brand of this capacity and the manufacturer? This step that dare is the preliminary one to develop a bigger project in the jungle of Peru taking the great advantages of the tax incentives that the government has given recently. Reards Roger Cotrina ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ __ Correo Yahoo! Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.yahoo.com.mx/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process
Pannirselvam P.V My apologies to the authors of the study. My criticisms Sounds like a poorly written science project and it doesn't seem to make any sense sprouted from my own ignorance. I am doing my homework on the subject of reactive distillation. I must admit to a bias that may compromise my acceptance of any new process. I like the idea of being able to make what I believe to be high quality biodiesel, myself, on my own spot of land, using little more than what I can scavenge from my local scrap metal dump. A new process that goes beyond the reach of an average Tom and puts control back into the hands of big business may be new, but not necessarily better. As you said: The new generation biofuel is like the new wave social web2 , the free open process for several billions farmer to be free and independent of the big blues globalised market .This the natural way for green future for all , where all are included to have the sustainable green fuel . You may be right when you say ... some novel modification can be possible to make more environmentally friendly our old two stage proven JFT BioD process. Thank you for your response and I look forward to discussion and enlightenment by list members as this story unfolds. Best Wishes to You, Tom - Original Message - From: Pagandai Pannirselvam To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:09 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process Dear Cris,Thomas Kelly,Tom ,KEN , From Prof Pannir,Ufrn, BRAZIL 2007/4/10, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Chris, I agree with you when you say I can't see anything new about their process and it doesn't seem to make any sense.. PannirbrCertainly the results compared to the conventional process has merit and has more sense , as the cost of separation of good grade glycerol involve more than 50 percent the total cost of the BioD production.It is the fact that It reminds us to be of a poorly written science project as this is because the information of the novel technological process are valuable , but the farming community is one who share the knowledge freely.Surely Keith know well how hard for him to get the new BioD process information published in JFT, but incomplete information are always available and here too the same is true .However the project has good future even for small scale production in farm scale as very good results have been reported for the product quality of BiOD, glycerol,recovered alcohol The New Process appears to be the two stage acid/base process. Stage One involves esterification of fatty acids methyl esters. Stage Two is the transesterification of mono-, di-, triglycerides methyl esters. Pannnir The combined reaction and separation known as reactive distillation is an advanced novel innovative system of chemical engineering process engineering subjects.I am sure that l the small scale production in farm can do benefit using this novel methods not as it is as this is complex units , but can be modified if one wish to get recovery of alcohol and glycerol I don't know why filtration is included in each stage prior to washing. Pannir the product glycerol combine with ester , making the reverse reaction.If you can understand also the diverse di glycerol byproducts making the biofuel with less quality.The better the separation as soon this is formed better the yield , product quality. I'm also confused about Distilling the washed and dried Crude Biodiesel to get Biodiesel. While it is possible to recover methanol from the glycerine mix and even from the unwashed biodiesel by distillation, washing removes any excess methanol, so I can't imagine why one would distill washed and dried BD. PannirbrReally we need more information and I can agree with you. I think it is not a simple distillation , but extractive distillation to recover back diverse di ,tri esters formed.If you remember that this process new , the co products need to be recovered as the catalyst is yet not an perfect one. The 30 minute reaction time referred (as an advantage of the New Process to is only for Stage One (acid esterification). There is still a 1 -2 hour base catalyzed transesterification (Stage Two). It also claims that there is no stirring . I suspect this is wrong. Pannirbr I think,this is possible , eventhough not enough information is yet known , if one understand well what is reactive distillation some patented related with the processare known one. If you combine distillation and reaction, the products , alcohol and water
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process
Dear Thomas, Ken, Trevon and everyone: I think it is safe to say that we are all in agreement that there's nothing in the process that we don't already know. The last new thing I found about biodiesel production was sulfonated charcoal as catalyst. I made some and got some decent reaction but the process of making the stuff was a complete turn-off. If you guys do find something new do share.Thanks. Best, Chris ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process
Hi Tom, Pannir and all Pannirselvam P.V My apologies to the authors of the study. My criticisms Sounds like a poorly written science project and it doesn't seem to make any sense sprouted from my own ignorance. I am doing my homework on the subject of reactive distillation. I must admit to a bias that may compromise my acceptance of any new process. I like the idea of being able to make what I believe to be high quality biodiesel, myself, on my own spot of land, using little more than what I can scavenge from my local scrap metal dump. I think that's the main point. It's accessible to virtually anyone anywhere. A new process that goes beyond the reach of an average Tom and puts control back into the hands of big business may be new, but not necessarily better. It looks like an unholy marriage of the acid-base process and the famous supercritical methanol process (Saka et al) that was getting everyone excited a few years back - methanol at 5080 PSI and 350-400C. Um, no thankyou, I don't want big business doing that anywhere near me, let alone backyarders. High temperature + high pressure + lots of methanol as with this new process is likely to kill someone, I fear. As you said: The new generation biofuel is like the new wave social web2 , the free open process for several billions farmer to be free and independent of the big blues globalised market .This the natural way for green future for all , where all are included to have the sustainable green fuel . You may be right when you say ... some novel modification can be possible to make more environmentally friendly our old two stage proven JFT BioD process. I think so too, but not if it means trading in some of its many advantages (KISS, for instance). Thank you for your response and I look forward to discussion and enlightenment by list members as this story unfolds. Best Wishes to You, Tom - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Pagandai Pannirselvam To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:09 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process Dear Cris,Thomas Kelly,Tom ,KEN , From Prof Pannir,Ufrn, BRAZIL 2007/4/10, Thomas Kelly mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]: Chris, I agree with you when you say I can't see anything new about their process and it doesn't seem to make any sense.. PannirbrCertainly the results compared to the conventional process has merit and has more sense , as the cost of separation of good grade glycerol involve more than 50 percent the total cost of the BioD production. But I don't think that's of much interest to small-scale producers. I don't think it's easy to sell small-scale production of glycerin, even if it's refined, so this is really only a concern for large-scale producers. Tom said previously the cost of phosphoric acid for separating the by-product was covered by the recovered methanol, and you end up with crude glycerin that accelerates a compost pile or improves production of an anaerobic digester. Good enough I think. snip The project has merit surely , but have very poor content as they do not wish to share the technical information. That might be the reason, or they might just be fishing for financial support and don't really have anything much except some preliminary results, the claims they make could be true or could be just theory, or a mix of the two. I think we should probably be sceptical. We've seen so many things like this, and so few of them ever emerge into practice. I doubt this process will contribute much to a sustainable green future. snip I wish also to get the comments as our list has so many members from several countries , only very few members are involved here in recent biofuel list discussions. Robert said something similar recently. It has been quieter than usual, broader participation and wider discussion would be welcome, as always. All best Keith It is the fact that It reminds us to be of a poorly written science project as this is because the information of the novel technological process are valuable , but the farming community is one who share the knowledge freely.Surely Keith know well how hard for him to get the new BioD process information published in JFT, but incomplete information are always available and here too the same is true .However the project has good future even for small scale production in farm scale as very good results have been reported for the product quality of BiOD, glycerol,recovered alcohol The New Process appears to be the two stage acid/base process. Stage One involves esterification of fatty acids methyl esters. Stage Two is the transesterification of mono-, di-, triglycerides methyl esters. Pannnir The combined reaction and separation known as reactive
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel processing plant
Hi Keith: Thanks for your answer. I haven't produce any liter of biodiesel yet but I'm in contact with the University of Agraria of Lima Peru who has developed a very and basic biodiesel plant in a lab and has made investigations about the market oil sources and the statistics of Peruvian Market needs. Actually the master of that project will be part of my company organization. I've studied a post graduate of nuclear engineer in Argentina and have other people with outstanding acomplishment who will work with me. Partnerts of other conuntries are wellcome if you are interested in this project. Any suggestion will be appreciate. Thank you very much again and I apologise any mispelling. Here is a little difficult to practice my english. Best regards Roger L. Cotrina Calle Juan Gris 230, Suite 303 San Borja -Lima Peru Phone: 51-1-226-0700 Cel: 51-1-9018-6300 Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: Hello Roger Have you made any biodiesel yet? Best Keith Dear members: . Estimated friends: This is Roger Cotrina from Lima - Peru. I am gliding to install a small biodiesel plant to obtain 1,000 daily liters of biodiesel using oil of palm and recycled oils. May someone recommend to me some plant or brand of this capacity and the manufacturer? This step that dare is the preliminary one to develop a bigger project in the jungle of Peru taking the great advantages of the tax incentives that the government has given recently. Reards Roger Cotrina ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ __ Correo Yahoo! Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.yahoo.com.mx/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel processing plant
from all that i have seen, heard, and done, i would suggest that the best way to acquire a BD processor, is to design and produce one (or more) in your own shop. i recommend a more modular system of 2 to 4 smaller reactors - that way if something goes wrong with one of them, you can still operate the others while making repairs to the disabled processor. - Original Message - From: Roger Cotrina To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 4:34 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel processing plant Hi Keith: Thanks for your answer. I haven't produce any liter of biodiesel yet but I'm in contact with the University of Agraria of Lima Peru who has developed a very and basic biodiesel plant in a lab and has made investigations about the market oil sources and the statistics of Peruvian Market needs. Actually the master of that project will be part of my company organization. I've studied a post graduate of nuclear engineer in Argentina and have other people with outstanding acomplishment who will work with me. Partnerts of other conuntries are wellcome if you are interested in this project. Any suggestion will be appreciate. Thank you very much again and I apologise any mispelling. Here is a little difficult to practice my english. Best regards Roger L. Cotrina Calle Juan Gris 230, Suite 303 San Borja -Lima Peru Phone: 51-1-226-0700 Cel: 51-1-9018-6300 Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: Hello Roger Have you made any biodiesel yet? Best Keith Dear members: . Estimated friends: This is Roger Cotrina from Lima - Peru. I am gliding to install a small biodiesel plant to obtain 1,000 daily liters of biodiesel using oil of palm and recycled oils. May someone recommend to me some plant or brand of this capacity and the manufacturer? This step that dare is the preliminary one to develop a bigger project in the jungle of Peru taking the great advantages of the tax incentives that the government has given recently. Reards Roger Cotrina ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ __ Correo Yahoo! Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.yahoo.com.mx/ -- ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.3.0/758 - Release Date: 4/12/2007 11:52 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.3.0/758 - Release Date: 4/12/2007 11:52 AM ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel processing plant
Hi Roger Hi Keith: Thanks for your answer. :-) It was a question. I haven't produce any liter of biodiesel yet but I'm in contact with the University of Agraria of Lima Peru who has developed a very and basic biodiesel plant in a lab and has made investigations about the market oil sources and the statistics of Peruvian Market needs. Actually the master of that project will be part of my company organization. I've studied a post graduate of nuclear engineer in Argentina and have other people with outstanding acomplishment who will work with me. Partnerts of other conuntries are wellcome if you are interested in this project. Any suggestion will be appreciate. Judging from what's happened to many other people, I don't think your qualifications and those of your partners will help you very much if you start in the wrong place. I suggest you start here: Where do I start? http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#start ... where it says Start with the process, NOT with the processor. The processor comes later. Which would you prefer - a failed batch of one litre or a failed batch of 1,000 litres? Learn how to make your biodiesel first. Follow the instructions, step by step. Study everything on that page and the next page and at the links in the text. It tells you everything you need to know. Anyway, why would you prefer a lab version of a biodiesel plant when you have ready access right here to processor designs that have been tried and tested by thousands of people in the real world? Also, a biodiesel plant making 1,000 litres a day is not small, that's far in excess of what would (or should) be needed by an individual, or by a sustainable farm. Is this to be a community-based project or simply a business for profit? The Biofuel mailing list is not seen as a source of free consultancy for commercial operations. It's not against commercial operations either, but its main focus is small-scale, local community level or individual projects. Thank you very much again and I apologise any mispelling. Here is a little difficult to practice my english. Your English is just fine, please don't be embarrassed about it. Best Keith Best regards Roger L. Cotrina Calle Juan Gris 230, Suite 303 San Borja -Lima Peru Phone: 51-1-226-0700 Cel: 51-1-9018-6300 Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: Hello Roger Have you made any biodiesel yet? Best Keith Dear members: . Estimated friends: This is Roger Cotrina from Lima - Peru. I am gliding to install a small biodiesel plant to obtain 1,000 daily liters of biodiesel using oil of palm and recycled oils. May someone recommend to me some plant or brand of this capacity and the manufacturer? This step that dare is the preliminary one to develop a bigger project in the jungle of Peru taking the great advantages of the tax incentives that the government has given recently. Reards Roger Cotrina ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process
Dear Cris,Thomas Kelly,Tom ,KEN , From Prof Pannir,Ufrn, BRAZIL 2007/4/10, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Chris, I agree with you when you say I can't see anything new about their process and it doesn't seem to make any sense.. PannirbrCertainly the results compared to the conventional process has merit and has more sense , as the cost of separation of good grade glycerol involve more than 50 percent the total cost of the BioD production.It is the fact that It reminds us to be of a poorly written science project as this is because the information of the novel technological process are valuable , but the farming community is one who share the knowledge freely.Surely Keith know well how hard for him to get the new BioD process information published in JFT, but incomplete information are always available and here too the same is true .However the project has good future even for small scale production in farm scale as very good results have been reported for the product quality of BiOD, glycerol,recovered alcohol The New Process appears to be the two stage acid/base process. Stage One involves esterification of fatty acids methyl esters. Stage Two is the transesterification of mono-, di-, triglycerides methyl esters. Pannnir The combined reaction and separation known as reactive distillation is an advanced novel innovative system of chemical engineering process engineering subjects.I am sure that l the small scale production in farm can do benefit using this novel methods not as it is as this is complex units , but can be modified if one wish to get recovery of alcohol and glycerol I don't know why filtration is included in each stage prior to washing. Pannir the product glycerol combine with ester , making the reverse reaction.If you can understand also the diverse di glycerol byproducts making the biofuel with less quality.The better the separation as soon this is formed better the yield , product quality. I'm also confused about Distilling the washed and dried Crude Biodiesel to get Biodiesel. While it is possible to recover methanol from the glycerine mix and even from the unwashed biodiesel by distillation, washing removes any excess methanol, so I can't imagine why one would distill washed and dried BD. PannirbrReally we need more information and I can agree with you. I think it is not a simple distillation , but extractive distillation to recover back diverse di ,tri esters formed.If you remember that this process new , the co products need to be recovered as the catalyst is yet not an perfect one. The 30 minute reaction time referred (as an advantage of the New Process to is only for Stage One (acid esterification). There is still a 1 -2 hour base catalyzed transesterification (Stage Two). It also claims that there is no stirring . I suspect this is wrong. Pannirbr I think,this is possible , eventhough not enough information is yet known , if one understand well what is reactive distillation some patented related with the processare known one. If you combine distillation and reaction, the products , alcohol and water are separated simultaneously .Several patented process does prove that it is possible to get results with out the use of mechanical agitator's , but thermal energy are used , which can be recovered , thus the process is designed to be more energy efficient It says that the Classic Process cannot use soy, rapeseed, palm, coconut, sunflower, jatropa, recycled oil (WVO), or lard Wrong again. The acid containing oil as well as the water content are yet still technical problems , as the transesterification reaction using alkai catalyst are very sensitive in terms of yield and quality . It reminds me of a poorly written science project. The project has merit surely , but have very poor content as they do not wish to share the technical information. There are several innovations especially the better quality of all the products , higher recovery , less reaction time , more productivity , better energy recovery less environmental problems .But I agree with all the coments here in the list that this much advantage is needed for the farm scale production not worthy considering the complexity In this sense our old JFT two sage still can be gold.Yet some novel modification can be possible to make more environmentally friendly our old two stage proven JFT BioD process We from Academic research will always wish to invent the process , so that the farmer can also modify to be more productive , the better the quality of the products totally diferent of academic one. I wish also to get the comments as our list has so many members from several countries , only very few members are involved here in recent biofuel list discussions..The more younger list members views , our list leader Keith very balanced view
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process
Chris, I agree with you when you say I can't see anything new about their process and it doesn't seem to make any sense.. The New Process appears to be the two stage acid/base process. Stage One involves esterification of fatty acids methyl esters. Stage Two is the transesterification of mono-, di-, triglycerides methyl esters. I don't know why filtration is included in each stage prior to washing. I'm also confused about Distilling the washed and dried Crude Biodiesel to get Biodiesel. While it is possible to recover methanol from the glycerine mix and even from the unwashed biodiesel by distillation, washing removes any excess methanol, so I can't imagine why one would distill washed and dried BD. The 30 minute reaction time referred (as an advantage of the New Process to is only for Stage One (acid esterification). There is still a 1 -2 hour base catalyzed transesterification (Stage Two). It also claims that there is no stirring . I suspect this is wrong. It says that the Classic Process cannot use soy, rapeseed, palm, coconut, sunflower, jatropa, recycled oil (WVO), or lard Wrong again. It reminds me of a poorly written science project. Tom - Original Message - From: Christopher Jacqueline Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 3:53 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process This website http://www.inet.hr/~jkuftine/en/biodizel.htm features a so called 'New Process but, frankly, I can't see anything new about their process and it doesn't seem to make any sense. Anyone care to comment? Thanks Chris ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process
Hi, I guess using high temperature and pressure can push the reaction to completion but it did not say how high a temperature and pressure. It would be dangerous for backyarders like myself to tinker with such extreme conditions without proper facilities and equipment. Maybe thats why the founders of biodiesel used the process today. Simple, easy and safer. Though i'm open to try other stuff, some guidance is very much appreciated starting with what temperature and pressures are we talking about. Best Regards to everyone. Ken Chua --- Christopher Jacqueline Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This website http://www.inet.hr/~jkuftine/en/biodizel.htm features a so called 'New Process but, frankly, I can't see anything new about their process and it doesn't seem to make any sense. Anyone care to comment? Thanks Chris ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends.http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel New Process
Looks like he is using high heat and pressure as the aid in the process and apparently a lot of methanol. This doesn't look like a homebrewer's use but someone with a controlled lab might be able to do it. And possibly someone who has a little more money. --- Christopher Jacqueline Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This website http://www.inet.hr/~jkuftine/en/biodizel.htm features a so called 'New Process but, frankly, I can't see anything new about their process and it doesn't seem to make any sense. Anyone care to comment? Thanks Chris ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by Green Rating at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel processing plant
Hello Roger Have you made any biodiesel yet? Best Keith Dear members: . Estimated friends: This is Roger Cotrina from Lima - Peru. I am gliding to install a small biodiesel plant to obtain 1,000 daily liters of biodiesel using oil of palm and recycled oils. May someone recommend to me some plant or brand of this capacity and the manufacturer? This step that dare is the preliminary one to develop a bigger project in the jungle of Peru taking the great advantages of the tax incentives that the government has given recently. Reards Roger Cotrina ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel keeping
Hi, I been looking for information about biodiesel storage and havent found much. Then you didn't look very hard. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#store Storing biodiesel - Make your own biodiesel Best Keith Wonder how much time can I storage biodiesel before it looses quality. Isnt any way to extend the storage lifetime? Nacho ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining
Jason, Thank you for the info, I have read and contacted them. The price is about $20 / gallon I tried to get some info on the components of it, but they could not release any. Because of the high price I would like to make mine based on Biodiesel. WE are machining soft steel with low speed cutting tools, so it is not a problem if the performance drops with some percentage. So far I found no real sloution for adding sulfur to it. We think that is the secret ingredient in cutting oils. András Tonomár TONO-Invest KFT H-9200 Mosonmagyaróvár Alkotmány u. 3. +36 96 / 215 - 426 +36 20 / 926 - 7180 (mobil) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 2:36 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining i had a hunch that this was not a new concept, and went looking. http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/489267/rss/3461 Cutting Oil features vegetable-based formula. August 15, 2006 - Derived from renewable raw materials, Vascomill 22 generates minimal mist, vapor, or smoke during use in CNC machinery performing operations with tough materials such as stainless steels, titanium, high-temperature alloys, and beryllium copper. Formula helps extend tool life and lubricity while promoting skin compatibility for operators. While universal for most operations and materials, oil can also be used in medical industry applications. Press Release Release date: July 12, 2006 Blaser Swisslube Announces Vascomill 22 Vegetable Cutting Oil GOSHEN, N.Y. - Blaser Swisslube Inc., premier supplier of world-class, Swiss-quality metalworking fluids, announces Vascomill 22 cutting oil. Vascomill 22 straight vegetable-based oil is universal for most operations and materials and offers superior cutting performance and lubricating properties in metal removal operations from low to high cutting speeds. Vascomill 22 was specially designed to achieve first-rate performance on tough materials when end users need exceptional surface finish, tool life and lubricity. These properties make Vascomill 22 ideal for medical industry applications as well. Vascomill 22 provides the ultimate in cutting performance for CNC machinery, including Swiss-automatic lathes and in operations machining tough materials such as stainless steels, titanium, high temperature alloys and beryllium copper. The flash point for Vascomill 22 is very high for the viscosity, and the product generates minimal mist, vapor or smoke formation during use. Vascomill 22 ensures better skin compatibility for operators compared to mineral oil-based products with large amounts of additives. Vascomill 22 is derived from renewable raw materials. Founded in 1936, Blaser Swisslube Inc. has created lubrication solutions for 70 years. Blaser metal working fluids are recognized world wide for dependability in improving tool life, production and part quality while reducing overall production costs. Blaser products are developed by a team of researchers at the Blaser headquarters in Switzerland, and U.S. production is based in Goshen, N.Y. For more information about Blaser please visit http://www.blaser.com. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 7:14 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.3/530 - Release Date: 11/11/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining
Hello,
Thank you for your experiment Bob, looks like it can not
be disolved in BD in Elementar format
I will do my experiment for BD as an additive to cutting
oil in diff. percentage, and see
what the result will be.
JIM: in this link I dont know what that material is. is it
to act as a catalyst? to disolve sulfur?
Is there any common name for it, and can someone brew at
home?
reg.
Andrew
- Original Message -
From:
JAMES PHELPS
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 9:10
PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use
ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining
The sulfur used is trade name "sulfer lard" I am thinking that the
mineral oil is the carrier. the cutting oil is by composition -sulfur
(unknown if it is elemental or organic compound), mineral oil and an additive
to supply a high lubricity.
Jim
- Original Message -
From: bob allen
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 11:41
AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use
ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining
update, it appears that most of the sulfur which went into
solution crystallized out (needles) upon cooling to room
temp. bob allen wrote: I put one gram of
sulfur (elemental) in 50 milliliters of biodiesel and heated.
some but not all went into solution, so I can say that sulfur is
soluble to less than two percent in biodiesel.
Tonomár András wrote:
I was looking through the MSDS of our cutting oil but found no
trace of the chemical stucture. ( I think they consider it
industrial secret) WOuld be nive if you could find
out something about sulfur dissolving Thank you in
advance Kind reg.
Andrew Subject: Re:
[Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant
andlubricatinginsteelmachining I don't
know off the top of my head, but sulfur is somewhat soluble in
non polar solvents like toluene and carbon tetrachloride, so I
suspect it would have some solubility in biodiesel.
Probably all you would need to do is get some elemental sulfur ,
a yellow powder , add to the biodiesel and heat it up to see if
it dissolves. This is assuming that when someone says sulfur,
they mean elemental sulfur rather than sulfur present in
another form. If I get time this afternoon I'll give it a
try. stay tuned. Another point, if
"sulfurated" biodiesel works, wouldn't "sulfurated"
vegetable oil work just as well?
I would but I don't do
enough to matter. I am not sure how they put sulfer
into oil perhaps Bob Allen would help answer this
question?
Jim
From: Tonomár András [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant
andlubricatinginsteelmachining Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006
11:20:31 +0100
James, Thank you for your
reply. Do you know how can I add
sulfur? What was your final conclusion with the
experiment? Do you still use it or
not? Thanks
Andrew -
Original Message - From: "JAMES PHELPS" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To:
biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:33 PM Subject: Re:
[Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and
lubricatinginsteelmachining
Also you may need to add Sulfur to get a real good
cut. Thats
the
magic
ingreadient to cutting
oils.
From: "JAMES PHELPS" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and
lubricating
insteelmachining Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:49:27
-0700 It will
probably work if the cutting edge can be kept cool. I
used
some
for
this and it got hot and smoked (worked good
though) but I
didn't'
have
a
regenerative supply cooling the surface. Get an
msds on
your
cutting
oil
and one for biodiesel then compare the
properties. This can be
a
guide
that will tell you what modifications you need
to make. - Original Message
- From: Tonomár Andrásmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To:
Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006
4:31 AM Subject: [Biofuel] BIodiesel
use as coolant and lubricating in
steelmachining
Dear list
members,
Does anyone have information on biodiesel in turning machines
as
coolant
and lubricating liquid? Cutting oil
prices are high in the sky
(
$21
/
gallon ). M
Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining
Andrew it is the free patent to make Sulfer Lard using animal fat. It is
for a chemist to figure out how to get sulfer into fat so it can be mixed with
host oils that lubricate and cool. Again the sulfur gets the tool to
"bite". At least as I understand it.
- Original Message -
From: Tonomár András
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 2:00
AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use
ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining
Hello,
Thank you for your experiment Bob, looks like it can not
be disolved in BD in Elementar format
I will do my experiment for BD as an additive to cutting
oil in diff. percentage, and see
what the result will be.
JIM: in this link I dont know what that material is. is
it to act as a catalyst? to disolve sulfur?
Is there any common name for it, and can someone brew at
home?
reg.
Andrew
- Original Message -
From:
JAMES PHELPS
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 9:10
PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use
ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining
The sulfur used is trade name "sulfer lard" I am thinking that the
mineral oil is the carrier. the cutting oil is by composition -sulfur
(unknown if it is elemental or organic compound), mineral oil and an
additive to supply a high lubricity.
Jim
- Original Message -
From: bob allen
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 11:41
AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use
ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining
update, it appears that most of the sulfur which went into
solution crystallized out (needles) upon cooling to room
temp. bob allen wrote: I put one gram of
sulfur (elemental) in 50 milliliters of biodiesel and
heated. some but not all went into solution, so I can say that sulfur is
soluble to less than two percent in biodiesel.
Tonomár András wrote:
I was looking through the MSDS of our cutting oil but found
no trace of the chemical stucture. ( I think they consider it
industrial secret) WOuld be nive if you could find
out something about sulfur dissolving Thank you in
advance Kind reg.
Andrew Subject: Re:
[Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant
andlubricatinginsteelmachining I don't
know off the top of my head, but sulfur is somewhat soluble in
non polar solvents like toluene and carbon tetrachloride, so I
suspect it would have some solubility in
biodiesel. Probably all you would need to do is
get some elemental sulfur , a yellow powder , add to the
biodiesel and heat it up to see if it dissolves. This is assuming
that when someone says sulfur, they mean elemental sulfur
rather than sulfur present in another form. If I
get time this afternoon I'll give it a try. stay
tuned. Another point, if "sulfurated"
biodiesel works, wouldn't "sulfurated" vegetable oil work just
as well?
I would but I don't
do enough to matter. I am not sure how they put
sulfer into oil perhaps Bob Allen would help answer this
question?
Jim
From: Tonomár András [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant
andlubricatinginsteelmachining Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006
11:20:31 +0100
James, Thank you for your
reply. Do you know how can I add
sulfur? What was your final conclusion with the
experiment? Do you still use it or
not? Thanks
Andrew -
Original Message - From: "JAMES PHELPS" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:33 PM Subject:
Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and
lubricatinginsteelmachining
Also you may need to add Sulfur to get a real
good cut. Thats
the
magic
ingreadient to cutting
oils.
From: "JAMES PHELPS" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and
lubricating
insteelmachining Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006
12:49:27 -0700 It
will probably work if the cutting edge can be kept cool. I
used
some
for
this and it got hot and smoked (worked good
though) but I
didn't'
have
a
regenerative supply cooling the surface. Get
an msds on
your
Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining
i had a hunch that this was not a new concept, and went looking. http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/489267/rss/3461 Cutting Oil features vegetable-based formula. August 15, 2006 - Derived from renewable raw materials, Vascomill 22 generates minimal mist, vapor, or smoke during use in CNC machinery performing operations with tough materials such as stainless steels, titanium, high-temperature alloys, and beryllium copper. Formula helps extend tool life and lubricity while promoting skin compatibility for operators. While universal for most operations and materials, oil can also be used in medical industry applications. Press Release Release date: July 12, 2006 Blaser Swisslube Announces Vascomill 22 Vegetable Cutting Oil GOSHEN, N.Y. - Blaser Swisslube Inc., premier supplier of world-class, Swiss-quality metalworking fluids, announces Vascomill 22 cutting oil. Vascomill 22 straight vegetable-based oil is universal for most operations and materials and offers superior cutting performance and lubricating properties in metal removal operations from low to high cutting speeds. Vascomill 22 was specially designed to achieve first-rate performance on tough materials when end users need exceptional surface finish, tool life and lubricity. These properties make Vascomill 22 ideal for medical industry applications as well. Vascomill 22 provides the ultimate in cutting performance for CNC machinery, including Swiss-automatic lathes and in operations machining tough materials such as stainless steels, titanium, high temperature alloys and beryllium copper. The flash point for Vascomill 22 is very high for the viscosity, and the product generates minimal mist, vapor or smoke formation during use. Vascomill 22 ensures better skin compatibility for operators compared to mineral oil-based products with large amounts of additives. Vascomill 22 is derived from renewable raw materials. Founded in 1936, Blaser Swisslube Inc. has created lubrication solutions for 70 years. Blaser metal working fluids are recognized world wide for dependability in improving tool life, production and part quality while reducing overall production costs. Blaser products are developed by a team of researchers at the Blaser headquarters in Switzerland, and U.S. production is based in Goshen, N.Y. For more information about Blaser please visit http://www.blaser.com. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 7:14 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.3/530 - Release Date: 11/11/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining
I was looking through the MSDS of our cutting oil but found no trace of the chemical stucture. ( I think they consider it industrial secret) WOuld be nive if you could find out something about sulfur dissolving Thank you in advance Kind reg. Andrew Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining I don't know off the top of my head, but sulfur is somewhat soluble in non polar solvents like toluene and carbon tetrachloride, so I suspect it would have some solubility in biodiesel. Probably all you would need to do is get some elemental sulfur , a yellow powder , add to the biodiesel and heat it up to see if it dissolves. This is assuming that when someone says sulfur, they mean elemental sulfur rather than sulfur present in another form. If I get time this afternoon I'll give it a try. stay tuned. Another point, if sulfurated biodiesel works, wouldn't sulfurated vegetable oil work just as well? I would but I don't do enough to matter. I am not sure how they put sulfer into oil perhaps Bob Allen would help answer this question? Jim From: Tonomár András [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:20:31 +0100 James, Thank you for your reply. Do you know how can I add sulfur? What was your final conclusion with the experiment? Do you still use it or not? Thanks Andrew - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricatinginsteelmachining Also you may need to add Sulfur to get a real good cut. Thats the magic ingreadient to cutting oils. From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating insteelmachining Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:49:27 -0700 It will probably work if the cutting edge can be kept cool. I used some for this and it got hot and smoked (worked good though) but I didn't' have a regenerative supply cooling the surface. Get an msds on your cutting oil and one for biodiesel then compare the properties. This can be a guide that will tell you what modifications you need to make. - Original Message - From: Tonomár Andrásmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 4:31 AM Subject: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating in steelmachining Dear list members, Does anyone have information on biodiesel in turning machines as coolant and lubricating liquid? Cutting oil prices are high in the sky ( $21 / gallon ). My company operates 8 automatic turns that use such oil. We are machining soft steel and automatic steel. The tools are made of rapid steel and normal HSS drills My boss just got angry because of the oil bills :))) and my thoughts are on biodiesel. We are going to experiment with that, but would be nice to have some info in advance. Kind regards, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - --- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list
Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining
I put one gram of sulfur (elemental) in 50 milliliters of biodiesel and heated. some but not all went into solution, so I can say that sulfur is soluble to less than two percent in biodiesel. Tonomár András wrote: I was looking through the MSDS of our cutting oil but found no trace of the chemical stucture. ( I think they consider it industrial secret) WOuld be nive if you could find out something about sulfur dissolving Thank you in advance Kind reg. Andrew Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining I don't know off the top of my head, but sulfur is somewhat soluble in non polar solvents like toluene and carbon tetrachloride, so I suspect it would have some solubility in biodiesel. Probably all you would need to do is get some elemental sulfur , a yellow powder , add to the biodiesel and heat it up to see if it dissolves. This is assuming that when someone says sulfur, they mean elemental sulfur rather than sulfur present in another form. If I get time this afternoon I'll give it a try. stay tuned. Another point, if sulfurated biodiesel works, wouldn't sulfurated vegetable oil work just as well? I would but I don't do enough to matter. I am not sure how they put sulfer into oil perhaps Bob Allen would help answer this question? Jim From: Tonomár András [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:20:31 +0100 James, Thank you for your reply. Do you know how can I add sulfur? What was your final conclusion with the experiment? Do you still use it or not? Thanks Andrew - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricatinginsteelmachining Also you may need to add Sulfur to get a real good cut. Thats the magic ingreadient to cutting oils. From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating insteelmachining Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:49:27 -0700 It will probably work if the cutting edge can be kept cool. I used some for this and it got hot and smoked (worked good though) but I didn't' have a regenerative supply cooling the surface. Get an msds on your cutting oil and one for biodiesel then compare the properties. This can be a guide that will tell you what modifications you need to make. - Original Message - From: Tonomár Andrásmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 4:31 AM Subject: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating in steelmachining Dear list members, Does anyone have information on biodiesel in turning machines as coolant and lubricating liquid? Cutting oil prices are high in the sky ( $21 / gallon ). My company operates 8 automatic turns that use such oil. We are machining soft steel and automatic steel. The tools are made of rapid steel and normal HSS drills My boss just got angry because of the oil bills :))) and my thoughts are on biodiesel. We are going to experiment with that, but would be nice to have some info in advance. Kind regards, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - --- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey
Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining
Bob, Andrew, I will investigate the percentage of sulfer in cutting oil and get back to you, stay tuned. Jim From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 08:00:34 -0600 I put one gram of sulfur (elemental) in 50 milliliters of biodiesel and heated. some but not all went into solution, so I can say that sulfur is soluble to less than two percent in biodiesel. Tonomár András wrote: I was looking through the MSDS of our cutting oil but found no trace of the chemical stucture. ( I think they consider it industrial secret) WOuld be nive if you could find out something about sulfur dissolving Thank you in advance Kind reg. Andrew Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining I don't know off the top of my head, but sulfur is somewhat soluble in non polar solvents like toluene and carbon tetrachloride, so I suspect it would have some solubility in biodiesel. Probably all you would need to do is get some elemental sulfur , a yellow powder , add to the biodiesel and heat it up to see if it dissolves. This is assuming that when someone says sulfur, they mean elemental sulfur rather than sulfur present in another form. If I get time this afternoon I'll give it a try. stay tuned. Another point, if sulfurated biodiesel works, wouldn't sulfurated vegetable oil work just as well? I would but I don't do enough to matter. I am not sure how they put sulfer into oil perhaps Bob Allen would help answer this question? Jim From: Tonomár András [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:20:31 +0100 James, Thank you for your reply. Do you know how can I add sulfur? What was your final conclusion with the experiment? Do you still use it or not? Thanks Andrew - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricatinginsteelmachining Also you may need to add Sulfur to get a real good cut. Thats the magic ingreadient to cutting oils. From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating insteelmachining Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:49:27 -0700 It will probably work if the cutting edge can be kept cool. I used some for this and it got hot and smoked (worked good though) but I didn't' have a regenerative supply cooling the surface. Get an msds on your cutting oil and one for biodiesel then compare the properties. This can be a guide that will tell you what modifications you need to make. - Original Message - From: Tonomár Andrásmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 4:31 AM Subject: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating in steelmachining Dear list members, Does anyone have information on biodiesel in turning machines as coolant and lubricating liquid? Cutting oil prices are high in the sky ( $21 / gallon ). My company operates 8 automatic turns that use such oil. We are machining soft steel and automatic steel. The tools are made of rapid steel and normal HSS drills My boss just got angry because of the oil bills :))) and my thoughts are on biodiesel. We are going to experiment with that, but would be nice to have some info in advance. Kind regards, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - --- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey
Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining
Andrew, I would purchase a gallon of mineral Oil mix 50% with Biodiesel and sturate with elemental sulfer. Try this mix and let me know how it works. It should work good on carbon steels. Jim From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 08:41:54 -0700 Bob, Andrew, I will investigate the percentage of sulfer in cutting oil and get back to you, stay tuned. Jim From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 08:00:34 -0600 I put one gram of sulfur (elemental) in 50 milliliters of biodiesel and heated. some but not all went into solution, so I can say that sulfur is soluble to less than two percent in biodiesel. Tonomár András wrote: I was looking through the MSDS of our cutting oil but found no trace of the chemical stucture. ( I think they consider it industrial secret) WOuld be nive if you could find out something about sulfur dissolving Thank you in advance Kind reg. Andrew Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining I don't know off the top of my head, but sulfur is somewhat soluble in non polar solvents like toluene and carbon tetrachloride, so I suspect it would have some solubility in biodiesel. Probably all you would need to do is get some elemental sulfur , a yellow powder , add to the biodiesel and heat it up to see if it dissolves. This is assuming that when someone says sulfur, they mean elemental sulfur rather than sulfur present in another form. If I get time this afternoon I'll give it a try. stay tuned. Another point, if sulfurated biodiesel works, wouldn't sulfurated vegetable oil work just as well? I would but I don't do enough to matter. I am not sure how they put sulfer into oil perhaps Bob Allen would help answer this question? Jim From: Tonomár András [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:20:31 +0100 James, Thank you for your reply. Do you know how can I add sulfur? What was your final conclusion with the experiment? Do you still use it or not? Thanks Andrew - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricatinginsteelmachining Also you may need to add Sulfur to get a real good cut. Thats the magic ingreadient to cutting oils. From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating insteelmachining Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:49:27 -0700 It will probably work if the cutting edge can be kept cool. I used some for this and it got hot and smoked (worked good though) but I didn't' have a regenerative supply cooling the surface. Get an msds on your cutting oil and one for biodiesel then compare the properties. This can be a guide that will tell you what modifications you need to make. - Original Message - From: Tonomár Andrásmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 4:31 AM Subject: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating in steelmachining Dear list members, Does anyone have information on biodiesel in turning machines as coolant and lubricating liquid? Cutting oil prices are high in the sky ( $21 / gallon ). My company operates 8 automatic turns that use such oil. We are machining soft steel and automatic steel. The tools are made of rapid steel and normal HSS drills My boss just got angry because of the oil bills :))) and my thoughts are on biodiesel. We are going to experiment with that, but would be nice to have some info in advance. Kind regards, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search
Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining
of equal importance is the form of the sulfur. Is it elemental ie, just sulfur atoms all by themselves, or is the sulfur present as an organosulfur compound. or even present as a metal sulfide salt? JAMES PHELPS wrote: Bob, Andrew, I will investigate the percentage of sulfer in cutting oil and get back to you, stay tuned. Jim From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 08:00:34 -0600 I put one gram of sulfur (elemental) in 50 milliliters of biodiesel and heated. some but not all went into solution, so I can say that sulfur is soluble to less than two percent in biodiesel. Tonomár András wrote: I was looking through the MSDS of our cutting oil but found no trace of the chemical stucture. ( I think they consider it industrial secret) WOuld be nive if you could find out something about sulfur dissolving Thank you in advance Kind reg. Andrew Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining I don't know off the top of my head, but sulfur is somewhat soluble in non polar solvents like toluene and carbon tetrachloride, so I suspect it would have some solubility in biodiesel. Probably all you would need to do is get some elemental sulfur , a yellow powder , add to the biodiesel and heat it up to see if it dissolves. This is assuming that when someone says sulfur, they mean elemental sulfur rather than sulfur present in another form. If I get time this afternoon I'll give it a try. stay tuned. Another point, if sulfurated biodiesel works, wouldn't sulfurated vegetable oil work just as well? I would but I don't do enough to matter. I am not sure how they put sulfer into oil perhaps Bob Allen would help answer this question? Jim From: Tonomár András [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:20:31 +0100 James, Thank you for your reply. Do you know how can I add sulfur? What was your final conclusion with the experiment? Do you still use it or not? Thanks Andrew - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricatinginsteelmachining Also you may need to add Sulfur to get a real good cut. Thats the magic ingreadient to cutting oils. From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating insteelmachining Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:49:27 -0700 It will probably work if the cutting edge can be kept cool. I used some for this and it got hot and smoked (worked good though) but I didn't' have a regenerative supply cooling the surface. Get an msds on your cutting oil and one for biodiesel then compare the properties. This can be a guide that will tell you what modifications you need to make. - Original Message - From: Tonomár Andrásmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 4:31 AM Subject: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating in steelmachining Dear list members, Does anyone have information on biodiesel in turning machines as coolant and lubricating liquid? Cutting oil prices are high in the sky ( $21 / gallon ). My company operates 8 automatic turns that use such oil. We are machining soft steel and automatic steel. The tools are made of rapid steel and normal HSS drills My boss just got angry because of the oil bills :))) and my thoughts are on biodiesel. We are going to experiment with that, but would be nice to have some info in advance. Kind regards, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined
Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining
update, it appears that most of the sulfur which went into solution crystallized out (needles) upon cooling to room temp. bob allen wrote: I put one gram of sulfur (elemental) in 50 milliliters of biodiesel and heated. some but not all went into solution, so I can say that sulfur is soluble to less than two percent in biodiesel. Tonomár András wrote: I was looking through the MSDS of our cutting oil but found no trace of the chemical stucture. ( I think they consider it industrial secret) WOuld be nive if you could find out something about sulfur dissolving Thank you in advance Kind reg. Andrew Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining I don't know off the top of my head, but sulfur is somewhat soluble in non polar solvents like toluene and carbon tetrachloride, so I suspect it would have some solubility in biodiesel. Probably all you would need to do is get some elemental sulfur , a yellow powder , add to the biodiesel and heat it up to see if it dissolves. This is assuming that when someone says sulfur, they mean elemental sulfur rather than sulfur present in another form. If I get time this afternoon I'll give it a try. stay tuned. Another point, if sulfurated biodiesel works, wouldn't sulfurated vegetable oil work just as well? I would but I don't do enough to matter. I am not sure how they put sulfer into oil perhaps Bob Allen would help answer this question? Jim From: Tonomár András [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:20:31 +0100 James, Thank you for your reply. Do you know how can I add sulfur? What was your final conclusion with the experiment? Do you still use it or not? Thanks Andrew - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricatinginsteelmachining Also you may need to add Sulfur to get a real good cut. Thats the magic ingreadient to cutting oils. From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating insteelmachining Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:49:27 -0700 It will probably work if the cutting edge can be kept cool. I used some for this and it got hot and smoked (worked good though) but I didn't' have a regenerative supply cooling the surface. Get an msds on your cutting oil and one for biodiesel then compare the properties. This can be a guide that will tell you what modifications you need to make. - Original Message - From: Tonomár Andrásmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 4:31 AM Subject: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating in steelmachining Dear list members, Does anyone have information on biodiesel in turning machines as coolant and lubricating liquid? Cutting oil prices are high in the sky ( $21 / gallon ). My company operates 8 automatic turns that use such oil. We are machining soft steel and automatic steel. The tools are made of rapid steel and normal HSS drills My boss just got angry because of the oil bills :))) and my thoughts are on biodiesel. We are going to experiment with that, but would be nice to have some info in advance. Kind regards, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey
Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining
see also http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4166795.html Jim - Original Message - From: bob allen To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining update, it appears that most of the sulfur which went into solution crystallized out (needles) upon cooling to room temp. bob allen wrote: I put one gram of sulfur (elemental) in 50 milliliters of biodiesel and heated. some but not all went into solution, so I can say that sulfur is soluble to less than two percent in biodiesel. Tonomár András wrote: I was looking through the MSDS of our cutting oil but found no trace of the chemical stucture. ( I think they consider it industrial secret) WOuld be nive if you could find out something about sulfur dissolving Thank you in advance Kind reg. Andrew Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining I don't know off the top of my head, but sulfur is somewhat soluble in non polar solvents like toluene and carbon tetrachloride, so I suspect it would have some solubility in biodiesel. Probably all you would need to do is get some elemental sulfur , a yellow powder , add to the biodiesel and heat it up to see if it dissolves. This is assuming that when someone says sulfur, they mean elemental sulfur rather than sulfur present in another form. If I get time this afternoon I'll give it a try. stay tuned. Another point, if "sulfurated" biodiesel works, wouldn't "sulfurated" vegetable oil work just as well? I would but I don't do enough to matter. I am not sure how they put sulfer into oil perhaps Bob Allen would help answer this question? Jim From: Tonomár András [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:20:31 +0100 James, Thank you for your reply. Do you know how can I add sulfur? What was your final conclusion with the experiment? Do you still use it or not? Thanks Andrew - Original Message - From: "JAMES PHELPS" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricatinginsteelmachining Also you may need to add Sulfur to get a real good cut. Thats the magic ingreadient to cutting oils. From: "JAMES PHELPS" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating insteelmachining Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:49:27 -0700 It will probably work if the cutting edge can be kept cool. I used some for this and it got hot and smoked (worked good though) but I didn't' have a regenerative supply cooling the surface. Get an msds on your cutting oil and one for biodiesel then compare the properties. This can be a guide that will tell you what modifications you need to make. - Original Message - From: Tonomár Andrásmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 4:31 AM Subject: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating in steelmachining Dear list members, Does anyone have information on biodiesel in turning machines as coolant and lubricating liquid? Cutting oil prices are high in the sky ( $21 / gallon ). My company operates 8 automatic turns that use such oil. We are machining soft steel and automatic steel. The tools are made of rapid steel and normal HSS drills My boss just got angry because of the oil bills :))) and my thoughts are on biodiesel. We are going to experiment with that, but would be nice to have some info in advance. Kind regards, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforeverorg/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey t
Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining
The sulfur used is trade name "sulfer lard" I am thinking that the mineral oil is the carrier. the cutting oil is by composition -sulfur (unknown if it is elemental or organic compound), mineral oil and an additive to supply a high lubricity. Jim - Original Message - From: bob allen To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining update, it appears that most of the sulfur which went into solution crystallized out (needles) upon cooling to room temp. bob allen wrote: I put one gram of sulfur (elemental) in 50 milliliters of biodiesel and heated. some but not all went into solution, so I can say that sulfur is soluble to less than two percent in biodiesel. Tonomár András wrote: I was looking through the MSDS of our cutting oil but found no trace of the chemical stucture. ( I think they consider it industrial secret) WOuld be nive if you could find out something about sulfur dissolving Thank you in advance Kind reg. Andrew Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use ascoolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining I don't know off the top of my head, but sulfur is somewhat soluble in non polar solvents like toluene and carbon tetrachloride, so I suspect it would have some solubility in biodiesel. Probably all you would need to do is get some elemental sulfur , a yellow powder , add to the biodiesel and heat it up to see if it dissolves. This is assuming that when someone says sulfur, they mean elemental sulfur rather than sulfur present in another form. If I get time this afternoon I'll give it a try. stay tuned. Another point, if "sulfurated" biodiesel works, wouldn't "sulfurated" vegetable oil work just as well? I would but I don't do enough to matter. I am not sure how they put sulfer into oil perhaps Bob Allen would help answer this question? Jim From: Tonomár András [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:20:31 +0100 James, Thank you for your reply. Do you know how can I add sulfur? What was your final conclusion with the experiment? Do you still use it or not? Thanks Andrew - Original Message - From: "JAMES PHELPS" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricatinginsteelmachining Also you may need to add Sulfur to get a real good cut. Thats the magic ingreadient to cutting oils. From: "JAMES PHELPS" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating insteelmachining Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:49:27 -0700 It will probably work if the cutting edge can be kept cool. I used some for this and it got hot and smoked (worked good though) but I didn't' have a regenerative supply cooling the surface. Get an msds on your cutting oil and one for biodiesel then compare the properties. This can be a guide that will tell you what modifications you need to make. - Original Message - From: Tonomár Andrásmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 4:31 AM Subject: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating in steelmachining Dear list members, Does anyone have information on biodiesel in turning machines as coolant and lubricating liquid? Cutting oil prices are high in the sky ( $21 / gallon ). My company operates 8 automatic turns that use such oil. We are machining soft steel and automatic steel. The tools are made of rapid steel and normal HSS drills My boss just got angry because of the oil bills :))) and my thoughts are on biodiesel. We are going to experiment with that, but would be nice to have some info in advance. Kind regards, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforeverorg/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricatinginsteelmachining
James, Thank you for your reply. Do you know how can I add sulfur? What was your final conclusion with the experiment? Do you still use it or not? Thanks Andrew - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricatinginsteelmachining Also you may need to add Sulfur to get a real good cut. Thats the magic ingreadient to cutting oils. From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating insteelmachining Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:49:27 -0700 It will probably work if the cutting edge can be kept cool. I used some for this and it got hot and smoked (worked good though) but I didn't' have a regenerative supply cooling the surface. Get an msds on your cutting oil and one for biodiesel then compare the properties. This can be a guide that will tell you what modifications you need to make. - Original Message - From: Tonomár Andrásmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 4:31 AM Subject: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating in steelmachining Dear list members, Does anyone have information on biodiesel in turning machines as coolant and lubricating liquid? Cutting oil prices are high in the sky ( $21 / gallon ). My company operates 8 automatic turns that use such oil. We are machining soft steel and automatic steel. The tools are made of rapid steel and normal HSS drills My boss just got angry because of the oil bills :))) and my thoughts are on biodiesel. We are going to experiment with that, but would be nice to have some info in advance. Kind regards, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining
I would but I don't do enough to matter. I am not sure how they put sulfer into oil perhaps Bob Allen would help answer this question? Jim From: Tonomár András [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:20:31 +0100 James, Thank you for your reply. Do you know how can I add sulfur? What was your final conclusion with the experiment? Do you still use it or not? Thanks Andrew - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricatinginsteelmachining Also you may need to add Sulfur to get a real good cut. Thats the magic ingreadient to cutting oils. From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating insteelmachining Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:49:27 -0700 It will probably work if the cutting edge can be kept cool. I used some for this and it got hot and smoked (worked good though) but I didn't' have a regenerative supply cooling the surface. Get an msds on your cutting oil and one for biodiesel then compare the properties. This can be a guide that will tell you what modifications you need to make. - Original Message - From: Tonomár Andrásmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 4:31 AM Subject: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating in steelmachining Dear list members, Does anyone have information on biodiesel in turning machines as coolant and lubricating liquid? Cutting oil prices are high in the sky ( $21 / gallon ). My company operates 8 automatic turns that use such oil. We are machining soft steel and automatic steel. The tools are made of rapid steel and normal HSS drills My boss just got angry because of the oil bills :))) and my thoughts are on biodiesel. We are going to experiment with that, but would be nice to have some info in advance. Kind regards, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining
I don't know off the top of my head, but sulfur is somewhat soluble in non polar solvents like toluene and carbon tetrachloride, so I suspect it would have some solubility in biodiesel. Probably all you would need to do is get some elemental sulfur , a yellow powder , add to the biodiesel and heat it up to see if it dissolves. This is assuming that when someone says sulfur, they mean elemental sulfur rather than sulfur present in another form. If I get time this afternoon I'll give it a try. stay tuned. Another point, if sulfurated biodiesel works, wouldn't sulfurated vegetable oil work just as well? I would but I don't do enough to matter. I am not sure how they put sulfer into oil perhaps Bob Allen would help answer this question? Jim From: Tonomár András [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant andlubricatinginsteelmachining Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:20:31 +0100 James, Thank you for your reply. Do you know how can I add sulfur? What was your final conclusion with the experiment? Do you still use it or not? Thanks Andrew - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricatinginsteelmachining Also you may need to add Sulfur to get a real good cut. Thats the magic ingreadient to cutting oils. From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating insteelmachining Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 12:49:27 -0700 It will probably work if the cutting edge can be kept cool. I used some for this and it got hot and smoked (worked good though) but I didn't' have a regenerative supply cooling the surface. Get an msds on your cutting oil and one for biodiesel then compare the properties. This can be a guide that will tell you what modifications you need to make. - Original Message - From: Tonomár Andrásmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 4:31 AM Subject: [Biofuel] BIodiesel use as coolant and lubricating in steelmachining Dear list members, Does anyone have information on biodiesel in turning machines as coolant and lubricating liquid? Cutting oil prices are high in the sky ( $21 / gallon ). My company operates 8 automatic turns that use such oil. We are machining soft steel and automatic steel. The tools are made of rapid steel and normal HSS drills My boss just got angry because of the oil bills :))) and my thoughts are on biodiesel. We are going to experiment with that, but would be nice to have some info in advance. Kind regards, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman
