Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

Hi, because the whole issue alao affects Overpass API, I have written down my thoughts in a blog post: http://dev.overpass-api.de/blog/fahrenheit_451.html Best regards, Roland ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

On 05.05.2017 at 11:38 Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) just a hint to a talk held at the FOSDEM 2017 (including the video): https://fosdem.org/2017/schedule/event/foss_and_the_gdpr/ Maybody some persons discussing here might want to have a lock at

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

Hi, On 05/08/2017 10:53 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > Breaking the connection between real people and "their map" fundamentally > alters the OSM community, and, I think, makes it closer to the toxic, > identity-free, virtual-personality environment that Wikipedia can so often > be. Yes.

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

Frederik Ramm wrote: > saying "your privacy goes down the drain if you do anything > online anyway, so why should we at OSM take steps to protect > it more". > > Perhaps: because we can, and because it's a good thing? ...or perhaps it isn't quite that black and white. OSM, at its best, is a

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

On Sunday 07 May 2017, Frederik Ramm wrote: > > It is a common issue in OSM (and elsewhere) for people to use the > status quo as a reason. "Admin boundaries are not visible on the > ground and they are mapped, THEREFORE I can also map everything else > that is not visible on the ground" - no! And

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

Hi, On 07.05.2017 22:54, Nicolás Alvarez wrote: > Yet I don't know of any such platform that has rules on how such > metadata can be used, and I don't see anyone here arguing that we need > rules on the use of mailing list archive metadata. One thing at a time. Pascal's request for identifying

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

2017-05-05 6:59 GMT-03:00 Frederik Ramm : > Today, if you are looking for a job and you're being interviewed by a > potential employer, the potential employer could say: "I can see from > OpenStreetMap that you've been editing a lot during the day in your last > job. Did you

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

On 4 May 2017 22:33:47 IST, Frederik Ramm wrote: >It doesn't matter that anyone can sign up and then view that data; we >can at least make people promise to only use the data for project >internal use when they sign up. While I'm not looking forward to having to login to

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

On Fri, 5 May 2017 12:34:14 +0200 Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > 2017-05-05 12:24 GMT+02:00 Frederik Ramm : > > > I think that even if they are careful enough not to use their real > > name, the identity of a mapper will often be easy to reconstruct if

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

"‘personal data’ means any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person (‘data subject’); an identifiable natural person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

Le 05. 05. 17 à 19:11, Simon Poole a écrit : That is why I suspect that the consequence of this discussion could be fairly drastic and result in essentially all meta data being removed from the planet dumps, including changeset ids and so on. So, if you suspect, ... don't ? Editing the map

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

This topic started a bit backwards -- with an action taken by one project within the OSM ecosystem. We've covered a lot of perspectives on the topic of privacy in OSM, and possible actions and their implications. To turn this thread into some forward movement for us, a good course of action

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

"It depends" the critical part (regardless of if it is your real name or not) is that it can be used as a key to generate a profile a la HDYC and that can then be associated with the help of additional sources with a real person, potentially revealing all kind of things about your life. But

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

Actually, can an OSM username be considered as 'personal data'? Can somebody point out to a definition of 'personal data' ? How would this be different from, say, my github account? Yves ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

On Friday 05 May 2017, Frederik Ramm wrote: > [...] > > I would like to come to a point where, if this happened to you in a > job interview, you could afterwards point to an OSM policy and say: > Clearly this company has violated OSM rules, they must have created > an account under false pretenses

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

sent from a phone > On 5. May 2017, at 12:24, Frederik Ramm wrote: > > This is true. It would actually be possible to write a plugin for JOSM > to do that - automatically sign up to OSM with a different throw-away > account for each changeset you upload. then you'd

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

Hi, On 05.05.2017 12:27, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > I also fail to understand who would > attack someones privacy by looking at OSM edits and for what scope, and > why this can't be legally excluded by stating you must not do it if you > want the data (which on the other hand will make OSM

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

2017-05-05 12:24 GMT+02:00 Frederik Ramm : > I think that even if they are careful enough not to use their real name, > the identity of a mapper will often be easy to reconstruct if you have > access to just a little bit of extra information (might be as little as > a name on

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

2017-05-05 12:10 GMT+02:00 Frederik Ramm : > How the goals of transparency and quality control in the project and the > goal of protecting the privacy of the individual contributor can be > reconciled is something we can, and should, think about > I still don't see how

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

Hi, On 05.05.2017 10:37, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > you write a lot about personal data, but all osm admins have about > users is some email address, which often isn't even existing anymore > and an associated user name Many people choose their real name, or at least something easily linkable

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

Hi, On 05.05.2017 08:49, joost schouppe wrote: > Putting a somewhat pointless access limitation to > HDYC is counterproductive, as it might give people a false sense of > security. This is correct, but so would > A system to opt-out of being > included in this particular system because it

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

Hi, On 05.05.2017 11:01, Christoph Hormann wrote: > ... or use some rouge open instance running anonymiously somewhere. I am aware that no matter what we do there will always be "rogue" uses of our data. Therefore making all contributors aware of what they are releasing about themselves and how

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

Am 05.05.2017 um 11:38 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: > > Usually in statistics, information down to the block level is not > considered personal informationn. You won't be able from OSM edits to > say in which house someone lives, or who she is, so it doesn't seem to > apply. Anybody that

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

On 2017-05-05 10:35, Simon Poole wrote: Am 05.05.2017 um 09:47 schrieb Maarten Deen: .. We have all agreed to the contributor terms (although I can not find the version I have agreed to, I can only find a version from 2016) and that says that OSMF has the right to sub-license. PS

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

Am 05.05.2017 um 10:37 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: > .. > Also everyone can create new users at will, if your concern is privacy, you > could use a new user for every edit and nobody could associate these edits to > the same person. > > .. Well if a "new user" includes - changing (the

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

Again on the term "personal data". According to the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) (Regulation (EU) 2016/679) [1], pseudonymized data is not concerned, unless it would be possible to attribute it to a natural person: ___ (26) "The principles of data protection should apply to any

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

On Friday 05 May 2017, Frederik Ramm wrote: > > I think that a viable middle ground could be to make user data > available to signed-up project members only, and they'd have to > promise to only use that data for project-internal purposes. You know i have not formed an opinion on this matter yet

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

sent from a phone > On 5. May 2017, at 01:36, Frederik Ramm wrote: > > Only if you want to distribute it outside > of OSM you'd either have to remove/pseudonymize the user names or get > explicit permission (as in: "I am ok with you publishing this particular > work with

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

Am 05.05.2017 um 09:47 schrieb Maarten Deen: > .. > We have all agreed to the contributor terms (although I can not find > the version I have agreed to, I can only find a version from 2016) and > that says that OSMF has the right to sub-license. PS

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

Am 05.05.2017 um 09:47 schrieb Maarten Deen: > ... > > And, "You also waive and/or agree not to assert against OSMF or its > licensees any moral rights that You may have in the Contents." > ... "the Contents" is defined as "in contributing data and/or any other content (collectively,

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

On 2017-05-05 09:17, Simon Poole wrote: Am 05.05.2017 um 00:39 schrieb Michał Brzozowski: ... Also, I see no reasonable way that upcoming EU privacy rules would affect us. Would they consider OSM as a special case or what? Everything mappers do, as has been said, is consensual and explicit.

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

Am 05.05.2017 um 00:39 schrieb Michał Brzozowski: > ... > Also, I see no reasonable way that upcoming EU privacy rules would > affect us. Would they consider OSM as a special case or what? > Everything mappers do, as has been said, is consensual and explicit. > > ... Well I don't remember giving

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

It's nice to know where this is coming from, because I was a bit confused about this too. In what way is my privacy protected if 2 million people can see my profile; oh and also everyone who bothers to make an OSM account? Putting a somewhat pointless access limitation to HDYC is

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

Hi, On 05/05/2017 12:39 AM, Michał Brzozowski wrote: > Many national communities use their own change monitoring tools that > will break, for instance greeting and monitoring new mappers. Why? Would it be so hard to adapt the tools to log in to OSM to access user information? > We use one site

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 11:33 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > I have personally talked to people who said they don't want to > contribute to OSM because Pascal Neis' page was "inviting stalkers". > > Those people were not the geek elite who have made it a habit to > thoroughly

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

On Thursday 04 May 2017, Michał Brzozowski wrote: > > > Well - HDYC is a tool offered by Pascal Neis, AFAIK it is not even > > open source. Pascal could turn it off any time if he wanted to and > > of course he can also put up constraints. > > Keep in mind that I don't make it appear that my

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

Hi, On 05/04/2017 09:33 PM, Michał Brzozowski wrote: > I don't like the idea how this was never introduced and discussed > outside of the German forum. > I think that such "privacy" measures are futile and go against the > spirit of OSM - transparency. I think that what we mainly want to create

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

This seems to be derailing rather fast. The background is that we are publishing a fair amount of meta data about our contributors that could at least be seen as not totally harmless from a privacy and data protection point of view. This includes all the changeset meta data, user ids and display

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

As Michal said, forcing login wont stop "those that want to cause harm". They will just login and harvest the data. They can also just scrape the osm data, so I dont think this is an issue with HDYC as much it is a privacy concern with OSM data itself. If you dont want to be associated with your

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 10:48 PM, Christoph Hormann wrote: > Michał made a connection to privacy concerns regarding Google StreetView > which were exclusively about the recorded data and not about the > recording metadata (which Google obviously has no interest in > publishing).

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

On Thursday 04 May 2017, Nicolás Alvarez wrote: > > > Just to make this clear since there are likely quite a few people > > reading here who will not be able or willing to parse the > > discussion on the German forum - discussion there was about privacy > > concerns w.r.t. editing metadata, which

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

> So you think the German community should be required to proactively > communicate any subject they discuss in German language channels to the > international community? We have to do this for imports, the least you could have done is brought it up on the talk mailing list. On May 4, 2017 4:41

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

> So you think the German community should be required to proactively > communicate any subject they discuss in German language channels to the > international community? I think the tools are _de facto_ used by the whole OSM community worldwide, that's why I think any sort of announcement would

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

2017-05-04 17:21 GMT-03:00 Christoph Hormann : > On Thursday 04 May 2017, Michał Brzozowski wrote: >> Maybe this is due to some "moral panic" in Germany revolving around >> privacy, just like StreetView ban - except it's made clear that your >> edits are public and you agree to

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

On Thursday 04 May 2017, Michał Brzozowski wrote: > > https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=57813 > > I don't like the idea how this was never introduced and discussed > outside of the German forum. So you think the German community should be required to proactively communicate any

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

+1 both James & Michal's comments. Thanks Michal for bringing up this undiscussed topic to the mailing list. *~~* *Denis Carriere* *GIS Software & Systems Specialist* On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 3:42 PM, James wrote: > What Michal said. Any body can download the OSM data

Re: [OSM-talk] HDYC, login requirement and "privacy"

What Michal said. Any body can download the OSM data and run the same analysis. You agreed to contribute to OSM, if you want your online footprint to be non-existant: unplug your internet. On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 3:33 PM, Michał Brzozowski wrote: > Many know Pascal Neis'