Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Thierry Koblentz wrote: Katrina wrote: Forget about how it should be marked up or presented, the issue is about *defining* what tabular data is. What's your definition of tabular data? Data that is separated by a tab character (such as tsv files etc). I don't think this relates *directly* to HTML though, it's a format for tabular data exchange. The question wasn't about HTML, it was about what tabular data was. And it's data separated by a tab character. To quote: A table can be a simple collection of data in tabular format http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/tables.html But does using a tabular format makes the data tabular? Yes, because tabular format is tabular data due to the use of the tab character (thus 'tab'ular data). Because in this case what about the content of Definition Lists? I mean (when unstyled) a DD shows with a tab indent, isn't it? But it's not unstyled, is it? It's styled by the default browser style sheet. What for you makes a list of name/value pairs tabular data? Yes, because you still need to explain the relationships between the two. Those two pieces of data by themselves mean absolutely diddly squat. Is that the name of the current president of this organisation? Is this a member that is a president of another organisation? Is it a candidate running for president? tabular data requires the tab character (or the close web approximation to) and in some ways requires an explanation of the relationships and meaning between the data. (headers) I totally agree with you on this last point (explicit relationship between the data), but then in a simple two column table (note that I can see exceptions here), there is a good chance that the data would make sense with no headers at all, no? No. It is the assumption on your part of what that data means. It is better to be explicit, rather than implicit, and to not leave the meaning of the data with the viewer who makes their own meanings from their own experiences and understandings. In short, does the following makes sense to you or not at all: President John Smith Vice-president Janet Jones etc. There are tabs in there, which creates an implicit relationship... But it is better, with data, to be explicit, to ensure your reader knows exactly what you are talking about. There is always room for mis-understandings no matter what you do, but you can minimise that. Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
On 8 Mar 2007, at 19:09:52, Paul Novitski wrote: The HTML spec makes it explicitly clear that the relationship between term and description can be interpreted more broadly than merely terms and their definitions: Another application of DL, for example, is for marking up dialogues, with each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing his or her words. [1] In a dialog, the speech does not define the speaker; rather, they mutually inform one another to constitute a data record of closely associated fields. I suggest that the DT/DD relationship is similar to the TH/TD relationship of head and datum. In my view, the spec is far from clear at that point: it states that it is a definition list, explains how it is to be used to mark up terms and their definitions, and then suddenly turns around and gives us carte blanche to do pretty much anything we like with it. Note that this is mentioned as being for example, so should IMHO be considered informative, not normative. In terms of the semantics of term and definition, it makes no sense at all. Also note that this example is not present in the current XHTML 2.0 Working Draft, which might reasonably be assumed to seek to clarify those areas of previous standards which have been found to be less than perfect expressions of the intent of the authors. As Jukka K. Korpela commented about this matter on the W3C's www-html list a couple of years ago, they name it a duck, and then say it can be used as a cow: Another application of a duck is for milking... [1] Regards, Nick. [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2005May/0111.html -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
At 3/9/2007 06:05 AM, Nick Fitzsimons wrote: On 8 Mar 2007, at 19:09:52, Paul Novitski wrote: The HTML spec makes it explicitly clear that the relationship between term and description can be interpreted more broadly than merely terms and their definitions: Another application of DL, for example, is for marking up dialogues, with each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing his or her words. [1] In a dialog, the speech does not define the speaker; rather, they mutually inform one another to constitute a data record of closely associated fields. I suggest that the DT/DD relationship is similar to the TH/TD relationship of head and datum. In my view, the spec is far from clear at that point: it states that it is a definition list, explains how it is to be used to mark up terms and their definitions, and then suddenly turns around and gives us carte blanche to do pretty much anything we like with it. Note that this is mentioned as being for example, so should IMHO be considered informative, not normative. In terms of the semantics of term and definition, it makes no sense at all. That's right -- in order to make sense of the spec it's necessary to expand your thinking beyond term definitions literally to include other metaphorically similar data relationships. Also note that this example Your use of quotation marks implies that you don't consider the example provided in the HTML spec to be a real example. How so? It looks like an example, it smells like an example, and they use the expression for example when they give the example. How is it not an example? Or do your quotes mean that you are so resistant to the ramifications of accepting the example that you are denying that it really is an example? Would you have us believe that it is some other type of information masquerading as an example? I don't take the spec so literally that I assume the authors intended DLs appropriate for dictionaries and dialog only. I take the dialog example as explicit permission to regard the DL structure metaphorically and not restrict the usage to term definitions only. They use the term description as well as definition, another hint that we might think -- if not outside the box -- at least inside of a larger box than term and definition by themselves would indicate. is not present in the current XHTML 2.0 Working Draft, which might reasonably be assumed to seek to clarify those areas of previous standards which have been found to be less than perfect expressions of the intent of the authors. It's interesting to speculate that the original authors somehow wrote the dialog example accidentally in contradiction to their own intent. Considering how much attention those documents receive from so many people, I find it much more likely that the example given fully expressed their consensus, and that the group of people working on the XHTML 2.0 spec have, presumably, come to different conclusions or at least have taken a more conservative approach to their own spec. As Jukka K. Korpela commented about this matter on the W3C's www-html list a couple of years ago, they name it a duck, and then say it can be used as a cow: Another application of a duck is for milking... [1] I'm an admirer of Jukka's colorful writing but I don't find the two usages (dictionary and dialog) as different as duck and cow. Rather than thinking that the spec suddenly turns around and gives us carte blanche to do pretty much anything we like with it, I find the dialog example still remains within fairly clear bounds: a relationship of duality in which the term specifies the thing and the description provides some information about it. This pattern of duality is not mimicked by any other HTML structure I can think of off-hand except TH/TD table cell types, and I find it useful when marking up certain kinds of information. May I ask, do you use DL for anything other than dictionaries and glossaries in which terms are being defined? How broad is your application of the structure? What HTML markup would you choose for a dialog? What about a thumbnail gallery? Can you accept that an image could be a term and its caption the description or vice versa? Or a catalog with the title, author, ISBN, cover image, blurb, etc. as, variously, terms and descriptions? What else? If we are willing to apply DL not just to dictionaries but also to other structures that metaphorically resemble dictionaries, the question remains where we draw the boundaries around that usage. With such a sparse semantic landscape as HTML provides, I resist the effort to confine DLs to dictionaries alone. I want to take advantage of its structural properties to make my markup more semantically meaningful and less tag soupy. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Thierry Koblentz wrote: Paul Novitski wrote: At 3/6/2007 05:51 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: President..John Smith Vice-president.Janet Jones In other words, the items in the two columns line up horizontally, and the cell on the left is filled out with dots. /quote Forget about how it should be marked up or presented, the issue is about *defining* what tabular data is. What's your definition of tabular data? Data that is separated by a tab character (such as tsv files etc). To quote: A table can be a simple collection of data in tabular format http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/tables.html And in the case of the given example, a pseudo tab character was given. Actually, what if there was only one row for our example? Would you consider marking up the following with a table? President..John Smith What for you makes a list of name/value pairs tabular data? --- Yes, because you still need to explain the relationships between the two. Those two pieces of data by themselves mean absolutely diddly squat. Is that the name of the current president of this organisation? Is this a member that is a president of another organisation? Is it a candidate running for president? tabular data requires the tab character (or the close web approximation to) and in some ways requires an explanation of the relationships and meaning between the data. (headers) Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
FWIW, my interpretation of what constitutes tabular data relies on the meaning of the data being directly associated to its grid coordinates, i.e. the intersection of a column and row. The column coordinate + the row coordinate gives specific meaning to the data located at the intersection of these items. Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz Sent: Thursday, 08 March, 2007 9:13 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data... Paul Novitski wrote: At 3/6/2007 05:51 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: President..John Smith Vice-president.Janet Jones In other words, the items in the two columns line up horizontally, and the cell on the left is filled out with dots. /quote The example you present here is clearly two-column tabular data (whether marked up as a table or not). We live in that golden universe where markup and presentation are very (never completely) separate. The question of whether your table of officers is tabular data (duh) is independent of how it's presented. Is anyone actually suggesting that the presence or absence of the dots influences the determination of the semantic structure of the information? Forget about how it should be marked up or presented, the issue is about *defining* what tabular data is. What's your definition of tabular data? Actually, what if there was only one row for our example? Would you consider marking up the following with a table? President..John Smith What for you makes a list of name/value pairs tabular data? --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
At 3/7/2007 11:13 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: What's your definition of tabular data? Actually, what if there was only one row for our example? Would you consider marking up the following with a table? President..John Smith What for you makes a list of name/value pairs tabular data? Pairs, triplets... the number of columns doesn't matter. For me a table is a dataset naturally structured in rows and columns -- in which everything in each column belongs to one class of data and everything in each row is one associated group. In your example, the two columns appear to be Position and Name. It's the fact that everything in the first column belongs to the class of Positions and everything in the second column belongs to the class of Names that's my clue that this is a regular dataset, and therefore a likely candidate for table markup in HTML. The fact that it can also be marked up as a definition list is great -- that gives me two tools to choose from. what if there was only one row for our example? OK, I'll bite. Would I bother marking up a single row as a table? For that matter, would I bother marking up a single row as a definition list? Or any kind of list? I guess it would depend on the circumstances. From where does the data originate? What's its purpose and function? Does this single row belong to a family of similar datasets elsewhere on the site that have more than one row? For easy, consistent styling I'd likely choose a single markup for all those datasets that have a similar look and feel and function. One of the most important criteria for choosing table or list markup is going to be flexibility of styling. Tables can be restyled a bit but they have more restrictive limits than lists which are wonderfully malleable. I might choose DL simply to give myself and future designers more latitude in styling. Today's leader dots might yield to tomorrow's vertical stack of bold position over normal name. To continue probing the edges of the problem, what if you strip the positions from your dataset and leave just the names? Is that single column tabular data? I say yes because everything in that one column belongs to a single data class. Would I mark up such a dataset as a table? Not usually, but I might if it belonged to a family of datasets that were marked up as tables. If it stood by itself I could choose among table, UL, and OL, and would likely choose list markup to provide the greatest freedom of styling. Thierry, I understand that you're looking for simple criteria for deciding when to use table markup and when not to. Personally I don't think hingeing it on the number of columns is the way to go. I think the reality of HTML is that, when a dataset is sufficiently simple in structure and number of columns, there's more than one way to mark it up that can be equally effective structurally. A single-column table can be an unordered list. A two-column table in which the first column contains sequential numbers can be an ordered list. A multiple-column table in which the first column(s) contains row heads can be a definition list. In the absence of any strong semantic cues, I'll choose a structure for its stylability. That might sound like semantic heresy, but I think it's inevitable when even so sparse a language as HTML gives us choices. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Katrina wrote: Forget about how it should be marked up or presented, the issue is about *defining* what tabular data is. What's your definition of tabular data? Data that is separated by a tab character (such as tsv files etc). I don't think this relates *directly* to HTML though, it's a format for tabular data exchange. To quote: A table can be a simple collection of data in tabular format http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/tables.html But does using a tabular format makes the data tabular? Because in this case what about the content of Definition Lists? I mean (when unstyled) a DD shows with a tab indent, isn't it? What for you makes a list of name/value pairs tabular data? Yes, because you still need to explain the relationships between the two. Those two pieces of data by themselves mean absolutely diddly squat. Is that the name of the current president of this organisation? Is this a member that is a president of another organisation? Is it a candidate running for president? Are you saying that only a table would make sense of these name/value pairs? I thought many agreed in this thread that there was a few alternatives to the table. But anyway, this is not about what would be the best element to mark it up but rather what makes some of us (most of us?) think it is tabular data. tabular data requires the tab character (or the close web approximation to) and in some ways requires an explanation of the relationships and meaning between the data. (headers) I totally agree with you on this last point (explicit relationship between the data), but then in a simple two column table (note that I can see exceptions here), there is a good chance that the data would make sense with no headers at all, no? In short, does the following makes sense to you or not at all: President John Smith Vice-president Janet Jones etc. There are tabs in there, which creates an implicit relationship... --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Kenny Graham wrote: What for you makes a list of name/value pairs tabular data? Besides the fact that name/value is an example of what would go inside some ths? Or in this case name and position. I guess the situation I'm forced to wonder about in regards to your stance on this is this: You have a 3 column table: NamePosition Age John SmithPresident 70 Jane Doe CFO 65 And after filling up this table, someone decides, you know, having the age in there is really pretty pointless, so they remove that column from the table. Does/should this make it stop being tabular data? Let's take your example to the next level, what if the person who decided to remove the Age column thinks there is no need for Position either, she'd want to keep just the name, would you keep the table? More seriously, in my opinion yes, it would stop being tabular data because then the top row for the headers becomes useless. Look at it this way: if that (two column) table was linearized, its content would still make sense. But for me, tabular data is data that *need* x and y reference to make sense. Finally, something I disagree with Thierry on! The thread is not finished yet ;-) --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Frank Palinkas wrote: FWIW, my interpretation of what constitutes tabular data relies on the meaning of the data being directly associated to its grid coordinates, i.e. the intersection of a column and row. The column coordinate + the row coordinate gives specific meaning to the data located at the intersection of these items. FWIW: that's exactly how I see it. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Paul Novitski wrote: Pairs, triplets... the number of columns doesn't matter. For me a table is a dataset naturally structured in rows and columns -- in which everything in each column belongs to one class of data and everything in each row is one associated group. In your example, the two columns appear to be Position and Name. It's the fact that everything in the first column belongs to the class of Positions and everything in the second column belongs to the class of Names that's my clue that this is a regular dataset, and therefore a likely candidate for table markup in HTML. But this definition applies to more than just table elements, isn't? In the above, we could replace the words first column with dt and second column with dd and it would make as much sense... The fact that it can also be marked up as a definition list is great -- that gives me two tools to choose from. I guess it would depend on the circumstances. From where does the data originate? What's its purpose and function? Does this single row belong to a family of similar datasets elsewhere on the site that have more than one row? For easy, consistent styling I'd likely choose a single markup for all those datasets that have a similar look and feel and function. Again you're talking about markup and presentation while I'm trying to focus on what make people think tabular data. Everything you say here is important in term of choosing the right tool for the job, but AFAIK, it doesn't help *define* the data. It's true that in my second post in this thread I said I was using markup as my own criteria, saying that if the data could make sense in anything other than a table then (for me) it was not tabular data, but that was a tool to evaluate the data, it has nothing to do with my final decision on how to mark it up. Thierry, I understand that you're looking for simple criteria for deciding when to use table markup and when not to. Not at all Paul. My question is *not* related to markup, it's about defining tabular data. It's even the subject of the thread :) --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
On 8 Mar 2007, at 16:37:15, Thierry Koblentz wrote: Paul Novitski wrote: Pairs, triplets... the number of columns doesn't matter. For me a table is a dataset naturally structured in rows and columns -- in which everything in each column belongs to one class of data and everything in each row is one associated group. In your example, the two columns appear to be Position and Name. It's the fact that everything in the first column belongs to the class of Positions and everything in the second column belongs to the class of Names that's my clue that this is a regular dataset, and therefore a likely candidate for table markup in HTML. But this definition applies to more than just table elements, isn't? In the above, we could replace the words first column with dt and second column with dd and it would make as much sense... On the other hand, I personally believe that the use of a dl in this example would make no *semantic* sense. After all, given the term President, the definition of that term would be something like The individual in charge of the organisation. John Smith simply cannot be seen as a *definition* of the term President, but is rather the personal name of that entity which is *denoted* by the term President. If it was called a denotation list, then fair enough; but it's a definition list, for grouping terms with their definitions (whatever vague examples may be given in the standard). In the example you aren't defining any terms: you are specifying that a key is bound to a value, and *that* is what a table may usefully be used for. Note also that all the elements and attributes of the HTML table model that promote accessibility (summary, caption, axis, headers, scope, abbr) are absent when a list of some kind is used. Still, I've never come across anybody other than myself who uses them anyway :-( Regards, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Nick Fitzsimons wrote: On 8 Mar 2007, at 16:37:15, Thierry Koblentz wrote: But this definition applies to more than just table elements, isn't? In the above, we could replace the words first column with dt and second column with dd and it would make as much sense... On the other hand, I personally believe that the use of a dl in this example would make no *semantic* sense. After all, given the term President, the definition of that term would be something like The individual in charge of the organisation. John Smith simply cannot be seen as a *definition* of the term President, but is rather the personal name of that entity which is *denoted* by the term President. If it was called a denotation list, then fair enough; but it's a definition list, for grouping terms with their definitions (whatever vague examples may be given in the standard). I see your point, but I'm not sure I agree as definition is often replaced by description which leaves more room for interpretation. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html#h-10.3 The two examples given would relate to the definition concept you point out, but what about: quote Another application of DL, for example, is for marking up dialogues, with each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing his or her words. /quote In this case, the words in the DDs are *not* the definition of the speakers, it's even far from that... Note also that all the elements and attributes of the HTML table model that promote accessibility (summary, caption, axis, headers, scope, abbr) are absent when a list of some kind is used. Still, I've never come across anybody other than myself who uses them anyway :-( I don't think simple tables call for all the attributes in the box though. But anyway, talking about accessibility, marking up the given example with accessible table markup, would - imho - make screenreader users listen to information (mostly related to the table itself, not its content) they wouldn't even need to understand the data if it was marked up as a simple DL for example. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Let's take your example to the next level, what if the person who decided to remove the Age column thinks there is no need for Position either, she'd want to keep just the name, would you keep the table? Then there would only be one coordinate, and I think a 1-dimensional table -is- a list. Not that I just think it should be marked up as one, but I think that's the defining characteristic of a list (in web semantics and elsewhere). As such, it still -could- be marked up as a table, but I think a 1-dimensional table and a list are semantically equivalent. I suppose I look at a table as a series of lists that are related to one another. And once you get two related lists, along comes the need to show how those lists are related, which is what all the descendant elements of tables are designed to do, and which definition lists don't provide. More seriously, in my opinion yes, it would stop being tabular data because then the top row for the headers becomes useless. Look at it this way: if that (two column) table was linearized, its content would still make sense. I disagree. What if instead of taking out age, we took out position? Then we'd have: John Smith 20 Jane Doe 23 Is that number their age? Their rank in sales numbers? The number of years they've worked for the company? You'd need to work around what you're missing from tables with something like In the following list, each name is followed by the age of the person. And if you're going to do that, why not do it for three or four columns as well? But for me, tabular data is data that *need* x and y reference to make sense. And 2 column tables do need it to make sense, unless the relation between the two columns is described elsewhere. A table allows you do describe the relationship between the two lists within the data structure. And I think the semantics of an element should be described by that element, not by some random sibling element. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
At 3/8/2007 09:40 AM, Nick Fitzsimons wrote: On the other hand, I personally believe that the use of a dl in this example would make no *semantic* sense. After all, given the term President, the definition of that term would be something like The individual in charge of the organisation. John Smith simply cannot be seen as a *definition* of the term President, but is rather the personal name of that entity which is *denoted* by the term President. If it was called a denotation list, then fair enough; but it's a definition list, for grouping terms with their definitions (whatever vague examples may be given in the standard). In the example you aren't defining any terms: you are specifying that a key is bound to a value, and *that* is what a table may usefully be used for. The HTML spec makes it explicitly clear that the relationship between term and description can be interpreted more broadly than merely terms and their definitions: Another application of DL, for example, is for marking up dialogues, with each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing his or her words. [1] In a dialog, the speech does not define the speaker; rather, they mutually inform one another to constitute a data record of closely associated fields. I suggest that the DT/DD relationship is similar to the TH/TD relationship of head and datum. Regards, Paul [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/lists.html#h-10.3 HTML 4.01 Specification 10.3 Definition lists: the DL, DT, and DD elements *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Kenny Graham wrote: More seriously, in my opinion yes, it would stop being tabular data because then the top row for the headers becomes useless. Look at it this way: if that (two column) table was linearized, its content would still make sense. I disagree. What if instead of taking out age, we took out position? Then we'd have: John Smith 20 Jane Doe 23 Is that number their age? Their rank in sales numbers? The number of years they've worked for the company? But do you think this is relevant? I believe a DL would follow a heading or other element that would help make sense of the data; a heading could be used in the same way caption elements are used with tables. But for me, tabular data is data that *need* x and y reference to make sense. And 2 column tables do need it to make sense, unless the relation between the two columns is described elsewhere. A table allows you do describe the relationship between the two lists within the data structure. And I think the semantics of an element should be described by that element, not by some random sibling element. In a simple two colum table, you'd have a TH and a TD following each other, these are siblings too. Actually, I don't see much difference between that and a DT/DD pair besides the fact that there is more structural markup involved with the former. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
The example we have been seeing in this thread is one that doesn't fall neatly into either the table or definition list categories. It could work with both. The broader debate about just what is a table vrs a definition list is far more interesting. Paul, I like the way you put it. But I don't see DT/DD as being similar to TH/TD. Tables define information that can be accessed using X Y coordinates (Column and row). So a table is a kind of ternary relationship. The x, y, and the value identified by the coordinates. Definition lists define key/value pairs. It's a binary relationship. OF course the way we use these structures is incidental. In the case that started this thread, there appears to be no header information (no X coordinate). But we can infer implied headings of name and position. The y coordinate is the persons name. So it's a table. But without the implied header information, it's just a list of key value pairs. So it's a definition list. We could go on for ever like this. What is it realy? Who cares? How would I write it? I'd use a DL and style the dots with CSS. Lucien. On 9/3/07 6:09 AM, Paul Novitski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 3/8/2007 09:40 AM, Nick Fitzsimons wrote: On the other hand, I personally believe that the use of a dl in this example would make no *semantic* sense. After all, given the term President, the definition of that term would be something like The individual in charge of the organisation. John Smith simply cannot be seen as a *definition* of the term President, but is rather the personal name of that entity which is *denoted* by the term President. If it was called a denotation list, then fair enough; but it's a definition list, for grouping terms with their definitions (whatever vague examples may be given in the standard). In the example you aren't defining any terms: you are specifying that a key is bound to a value, and *that* is what a table may usefully be used for. The HTML spec makes it explicitly clear that the relationship between term and description can be interpreted more broadly than merely terms and their definitions: Another application of DL, for example, is for marking up dialogues, with each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing his or her words. [1] In a dialog, the speech does not define the speaker; rather, they mutually inform one another to constitute a data record of closely associated fields. I suggest that the DT/DD relationship is similar to the TH/TD relationship of head and datum. Regards, Paul [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/lists.html#h-10.3 HTML 4.01 Specification 10.3 Definition lists: the DL, DT, and DD elements *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Lucien Stals Web Developer Academic Development and Support Phone +61 3 9214 4474 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Education is only the beginning. Let's get on with it. Swinburne University of Technology CRICOS Provider Code: 00111D NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the use of the addressee. They may contain information that is privileged or protected by copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution, printing, copying or use is strictly prohibited. The University does not warrant that this e-mail and any attachments are secure and there is also a risk that it may be corrupted in transmission. It is your responsibility to check any attachments for viruses or defects before opening them. If you have received this transmission in error, please contact us on +61 3 9214 8000 and delete it immediately from your system. We do not accept liability in connection with computer virus, data corruption, delay, interruption, unauthorised access or unauthorised amendment. Please consider the environment before printing this email. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
If I may add one other point that hasn't been touched on yet (that I'm aware of)... IMHO, if the elimination of either the table Column coordinate or Row coordinate takes place, it will break the semantic nature of the table element. If you continue to use the table element with one coordinate and its corresponding data entries, the table element is then only being used for presentational purposes, thus the need for an appropriate semantic method, i.e. a definition list or other. I also use table attributes, especially to enhance assistive device identification and transfer of cognitive data from the table structure to the user. Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer website: http://frank.helpware.net email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member: Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.) Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) super group trading ltd. Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa website: http://www.supergroup.co.za Work: +27 011 523 4931 Home: +27 011 455 5287 Fax:+27 011 455 3112 Mobile: +27 074 109 1908 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz Sent: Thursday, 08 March, 2007 20:25 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data... Nick Fitzsimons wrote: On 8 Mar 2007, at 16:37:15, Thierry Koblentz wrote: But this definition applies to more than just table elements, isn't? In the above, we could replace the words first column with dt and second column with dd and it would make as much sense... On the other hand, I personally believe that the use of a dl in this example would make no *semantic* sense. After all, given the term President, the definition of that term would be something like The individual in charge of the organisation. John Smith simply cannot be seen as a *definition* of the term President, but is rather the personal name of that entity which is *denoted* by the term President. If it was called a denotation list, then fair enough; but it's a definition list, for grouping terms with their definitions (whatever vague examples may be given in the standard). I see your point, but I'm not sure I agree as definition is often replaced by description which leaves more room for interpretation. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html#h-10.3 The two examples given would relate to the definition concept you point out, but what about: quote Another application of DL, for example, is for marking up dialogues, with each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing his or her words. /quote In this case, the words in the DDs are *not* the definition of the speakers, it's even far from that... Note also that all the elements and attributes of the HTML table model that promote accessibility (summary, caption, axis, headers, scope, abbr) are absent when a list of some kind is used. Still, I've never come across anybody other than myself who uses them anyway :-( I don't think simple tables call for all the attributes in the box though. But anyway, talking about accessibility, marking up the given example with accessible table markup, would - imho - make screenreader users listen to information (mostly related to the table itself, not its content) they wouldn't even need to understand the data if it was marked up as a simple DL for example. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
At 3/6/2007 11:04 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: For me if it fits in a two column table then it's not tabular data. Yikes-a-roonie! That is the most refreshingly bizarre assertion I've heard all day. And self-contradictory: if it fits in a table then it is by definition tabular, number of columns aside. Your three-column minimum certainly doesn't apply to data tables in general out there in the real world; why impose such a restriction in HTML? I've just re-read what the HTML 4.1 spec has to say about table markup and structure, and nowhere did I see any restriction on the number of columns a table may have. I have a need for a table when it is the only tool that would make sense of the data. Usually that's the way I think about it, if it makes sense only in a table then it's tabular data. If you apply that same rigorousness to all of HTML's tags you're going to tie yourself up in knots. You could as easily say that you shouldn't use a definition list unless it's the only structure that will hold the data. A 2xN dataset doesn't *require* a definition list; to be consistent shouldn't you assert that you shouldn't use a DL unless your data requires that structure? With a table's flexibility in the number of rows and columns and a DL's flexibility in the number of DTs and DDs, how can you find the kind of inflexibility you're seeking? If someone marks up a two-column dataset as H3-P pairs I don't think they're marking it up incorrectly, just differently, with some arguable advantages and disadvantages depending on their circumstances. I don't think the other way around, I don't leave room for any other consideration. So in short, if it *also* makes sense in a DL or an UL or anything else (without styling), then it is not tabular data. Because only tables can display tabular data. You're expecting the markup language to be excessively rigorous. HTML has latitude, gives us choices, leaves us room to be creative and inventive and to come up with multiple solutions to problems. If you paint yourself into tight corners then your own innovations will become brittle and uninspired. Hang loose, man. Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
David Pietersen wrote: Sorry if this has already come up... but have you seen these? http://www.lenef.com/dotleader/ http://home.tampabay.rr.com/bmerkey/examples/dot-leaders.html And another, One I did a while back : http://www.webscribe.fsnet.co.uk/menufiles/mk/mkchapters.html -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Tables always get people dancing around the room, mostly drunk.
The presentation seems unusual as does the term 'table' (possibly
because there's only two values per row). But the most common instance
of tables in print is the table of contents, which is exactly like this.
Try arguing that isn't a table.
Introduction..1
Chapter 139
Chapter 256
As for the 'it could just as well be a definition list' thing, I'm in
agreement but it doesn't cause me headaches anymore. From a practical
level, dd{display:table} doesn't work very well, whereas
td{display:block} is bulletproof. So in any case where something could
be construed as a table, I'd say go with those tags and use CSS if you
decide the info isn't being displayed clearly.
Regards,
Barney
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Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Barney
I don't see this as being a definition list. 39 does not define Chapter 1,
it is an indicator of where to find chapter 1. It is arguably a table, as in
table of contents. Of course it is all a bit of an odd case considering the
web. Web pages aren't paper, and trying to replicate the behaviour of books
via a screen can in *many* circumstances seem a little perverse
--
Regards
- Rob
Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk
On 07/03/07, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Tables always get people dancing around the room, mostly drunk.
The presentation seems unusual as does the term 'table' (possibly
because there's only two values per row). But the most common instance
of tables in print is the table of contents, which is exactly like this.
Try arguing that isn't a table.
Introduction..1
Chapter 139
Chapter 256
As for the 'it could just as well be a definition list' thing, I'm in
agreement but it doesn't cause me headaches anymore. From a practical
level, dd{display:table} doesn't work very well, whereas
td{display:block} is bulletproof. So in any case where something could
be construed as a table, I'd say go with those tags and use CSS if you
decide the info isn't being displayed clearly.
Regards,
Barney
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Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Rob Kirton wrote:
Barney
I don't see this as being a definition list. 39 does not define Chapter
1, it is an indicator of where to find chapter 1. It is arguably a
table, as in table of contents. Of course it is all a bit of an odd case
considering the web. Web pages aren't paper, and trying to replicate
the behaviour of books via a screen can in *many* circumstances seem a
little perverse
--
Regards
- Rob
Sorry Rob, I think you've got the wrong idea. This is relating to a post
Thierry made about tabular data.
The example of contents tables was specifically cited as being 'instance
of tables in print'. I was by no means suggesting we take this to the
web - Thierry's example uses the same format (which is the key matter)
but relates to positions occupied within a company in one column and the
names of the holders in the second.
Remembering that we're discussing Thierry's example, a definition list
would have been appropriate. Besides, I was specifically stating that
the markup for definition lists could be avoided and the same layout
produced with a table and CSS (td{display:block} + niceties).
Regards,
Barney
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Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Thierry Koblentz wrote: President..John Smith Vice-president.Janet Jones I see this as something that could be, or even should be, presented (styled) in a table-like manner, but I would normally not mark something like this up in a table. If I _have to_ organize something in a table in order to make sense of it, then it definitely belongs in a table - even on the web. If, OTOH, it makes just as much sense when the parts are just kept together in the source-code and presented un-styled, then I just check that it hasn't lost any meaning when styled. The un-styled presentation is the major factor when I choose what elements to use for something like this. Having it read out loud by a browser on this level, assures I haven't made too much of a mistake in my choice of mark up. Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
At 3/6/2007 11:04 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: For me if it fits in a two column table then it's not tabular data. And self-contradictory: if it fits in a table then it is by definition tabular, number of columns aside. I didn't say that. What I said is if it *only* fits in a table then it is tabular data. HTML? I've just re-read what the HTML 4.1 spec has to say about table markup and structure, and nowhere did I see any restriction on the number of columns a table may have. I didn't say that either. Actually, I never made any reference to the specs, my post was only about how *I* define tabular data. Since there is no definitive answer, I just tried to come up with a definition that would help me make simplier decision about mark up. I have a need for a table when it is the only tool that would make sense of the data. Usually that's the way I think about it, if it makes sense only in a table then it's tabular data. If you apply that same rigorousness to all of HTML's tags you're going to tie yourself up in knots. You could as easily say that you Where did I say I was applying this kind of thinking for every single tag? I think you're missing my point which is only my personal way to define tabular data and has nothing to do with any other HTML 'tag. inflexibility you're seeking? If someone marks up a two-column dataset as H3-P pairs I don't think they're marking it up incorrectly, just differently, with some arguable advantages and disadvantages depending on their circumstances. It's not about what people do and how they do it, it's about defining tabular data. Using the example above, I'd say that - for me, based on my own definition - I would not consider this as tabular data if it makes sense as H3-P without the use of a table. I don't think the other way around, I don't leave room for any other consideration. So in short, if it *also* makes sense in a DL or an UL or anything else (without styling), then it is not tabular data. Because only tables can display tabular data. You're expecting the markup language to be excessively rigorous. HTML has latitude, gives us choices, leaves us room to be creative and inventive and to come up with multiple solutions to problems. If you paint yourself into tight corners then your own innovations will become brittle and uninspired. Not at all Paul. Please read my post again and you'll see that I'm not talking about how things should be marked up, but how I recognize tabular data (the way I do it). --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
table captionTable of Malcontents/caption thead tr thName/th thComments/th /tr /thead tbody tr tdMe/td tdIs this tabular data?/td /tr tr tdMe supsmall2/small/sup/td tdShould this be a definition list?/td /tr tr tdMe supsmall3/small/sup/td tdWhat if I add a third/td tdcolumn?/td /tr tr tdMe supsmall4/small/sup/td tdIs it wrong to nest a table in a mailing list?/td /tr /tbody /table == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
At 3/6/2007 05:51 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: President..John Smith Vice-president.Janet Jones In other words, the items in the two columns line up horizontally, and the cell on the left is filled out with dots. /quote I'm curious to know what members of this group think about this. Should this be considered tabular data or not? Do you consider a table the best tool to mark this up? Or at least as good as anything else? The example you present here is clearly two-column tabular data (whether marked up as a table or not). We live in that golden universe where markup and presentation are very (never completely) separate. The question of whether your table of officers is tabular data (duh) is independent of how it's presented. Is anyone actually suggesting that the presence or absence of the dots influences the determination of the semantic structure of the information? Yikes, Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
I'm curious to know what members of this group think about this. Should this be considered tabular data or not? Do you consider a table the best tool to mark this up? Or at least as good as anything else? I think a definition list fits better, even though it's a slight abuse of DL it does basically define each title as the person in it (better than the other way around I guess ;)). That said, I can see it as a table too - just a really simple one. Tabular data with just one row of data, so to speak. I'd really lean towards setting it up with two headings: position and name. It does end up being a bit of a gut feel thing though. A bit like can a list have just one item? Sort of... not much of a list, but is it invalid? Probably not, particularly if there's an expectation of adding more items. cheers, Ben -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
What for you makes a list of name/value pairs tabular data? Besides the fact that name/value is an example of what would go inside some ths? Or in this case name and position. I guess the situation I'm forced to wonder about in regards to your stance on this is this: You have a 3 column table: NamePosition Age John SmithPresident 70 Jane Doe CFO 65 And after filling up this table, someone decides, you know, having the age in there is really pretty pointless, so they remove that column from the table. Does/should this make it stop being tabular data? Finally, something I disagree with Thierry on! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
i don't think you are missing anything. imo what you are proposing in your example is not tabular data at all. it's content followed by a string of dots ending in more content. if you are critized for thinking this is tabular data, then you should be critized; but, if you are being critized for wanting to pursue this type of presentation outside of a table, then i too am critized. dwain On 3/6/07, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The tabular data thread reminds me of one I participated in in another group. The original post was: quote I have a page with a list of officers of an organization. It's an obvious application for a table because that's what tables were designed for. But I wanted it to look the way it did in the printed version, where there was a row of dots leading from the heading to the person's name. For example (and this might not look right depending on your browser or viewer): President..John Smith Vice-president.Janet Jones In other words, the items in the two columns line up horizontally, and the cell on the left is filled out with dots. /quote I'm curious to know what members of this group think about this. Should this be considered tabular data or not? Do you consider a table the best tool to mark this up? Or at least as good as anything else? I'm curious because I've been so much criticized for my view on this that I'd like to know if I'm not missing something... Thanks. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
I tend to think of tabular data as that which, if you were to pull one row out at random and without reference to the column headings, it wouldn't make a lot of sense. That's not the case with your example where it's fairly obvious how the two pieces of information are related. On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 11:51:40 +1000, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The tabular data thread reminds me of one I participated in in another group. The original post was: quote I have a page with a list of officers of an organization. It's an obvious application for a table because that's what tables were designed for. But I wanted it to look the way it did in the printed version, where there was a row of dots leading from the heading to the person's name. For example (and this might not look right depending on your browser or viewer): President..John Smith Vice-president.Janet Jones In other words, the items in the two columns line up horizontally, and the cell on the left is filled out with dots. /quote I'm curious to know what members of this group think about this. Should this be considered tabular data or not? Do you consider a table the best tool to mark this up? Or at least as good as anything else? I'm curious because I've been so much criticized for my view on this that I'd like to know if I'm not missing something... Thanks. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Do you consider a table the best tool to mark this up? Or at least as good as anything else? I think it could either be a table or a definition list. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
A table seems fine as would a definition list. Jim -- __ Bugs are, by definition, necessary. Just ask Microsoft! www.co.sauk.wi.us (Work) www.arionshome.com (Personal) www.freexenon.com (Consulting) __ Take Back the Web with Mozilla Fire Fox http://www.getfirefox.com Making a Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards http://www.maccaws.org/ Web Standards Project http://www.webstandards.org/ Web Standards Group http://www.webstandardsgroup.org/ Guild of Accessible Web Designers http://www.gawds.org/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Tables are the go Thierry. The names and functions are always correctly justified that way. Not only that the dots look clunky, like a word document user who hasn't yet discovered tabs, and so just uses stops or the space bar. best Rob Robert Robinson BSS (Applied Psych Pers Mgt IR) e-Publishing Section Service Delivery Design Support Branch Customer Service Design Implementation Division Phone: Fax: Email: (02) 6244 6616 (sp. 446616) (02) 6244 7952 (sp. 447952) Robert Robinson Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/03/2007 12:51 PM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subject [WSG] Talking about tabular data... Reference Expires The tabular data thread reminds me of one I participated in in another group. The original post was: quote I have a page with a list of officers of an organization. It's an obvious application for a table because that's what tables were designed for. But I wanted it to look the way it did in the printed version, where there was a row of dots leading from the heading to the person's name. For example (and this might not look right depending on your browser or viewer): President..John Smith Vice-president.Janet Jones In other words, the items in the two columns line up horizontally, and the cell on the left is filled out with dots. /quote I'm curious to know what members of this group think about this. Should this be considered tabular data or not? Do you consider a table the best tool to mark this up? Or at least as good as anything else? I'm curious because I've been so much criticized for my view on this that I'd like to know if I'm not missing something... Thanks. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ** IMPORTANT: This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament. If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments. ** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** gifAg6qp51EKP.gif Description: GIF image
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
after reading the comments posted here, i guess that standards are what makes you feel good. maybe having a set in stone definition of what is tabular data and what isn't would be easier than what we have? it seems to me that the intent of the author plays a big role in how the document is crafted. i guess it is hard for some to rid themselves of the need to craft pages layed out in tables. i guess that the definition of what is tabular data and what isn't is still a gray area in the arena of standards. dwain On 3/6/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tables are the go Thierry. The names and functions are always correctly justified that way. Not only that the dots look clunky, like a word document user who hasn't yet discovered tabs, and so just uses stops or the space bar. best Rob -- *Robert Robinson BSS (Applied Psych Pers Mgt IR)** e-Publishing Section ** Service Delivery Design Support Branch Customer Service Design Implementation Division* *Phone: Fax: Email:* (02) 6244 6616 (sp. 446616) (02) 6244 7952 (sp. 447952)* **Robert Robinson* [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED]* Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/03/2007 12:51 PM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subject [WSG] Talking about tabular data... Reference Expires The tabular data thread reminds me of one I participated in in another group. The original post was: quote I have a page with a list of officers of an organization. It's an obvious application for a table because that's what tables were designed for. But I wanted it to look the way it did in the printed version, where there was a row of dots leading from the heading to the person's name. For example (and this might not look right depending on your browser or viewer): President..John Smith Vice-president.Janet Jones In other words, the items in the two columns line up horizontally, and the cell on the left is filled out with dots. /quote I'm curious to know what members of this group think about this. Should this be considered tabular data or not? Do you consider a table the best tool to mark this up? Or at least as good as anything else? I'm curious because I've been so much criticized for my view on this that I'd like to know if I'm not missing something... Thanks. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ** IMPORTANT: This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament. If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments. ** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Not only that the dots look clunky, like a word document user who hasn't yet discovered tabs, and so just uses stops or the space bar. If the dots were essential, they should be created using CSS (definitely presentational as they are there to help line up the two blocks of content). This would mean that they would not appear in the markup (they would make life hell for screen readers if the dots were content). This could be achieved using border bottom set with border-style to dots or a background image that is cut off under the two blocks of content... Should be easy :) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Sorry if this has already come up... but have you seen these? http://www.lenef.com/dotleader/ http://home.tampabay.rr.com/bmerkey/examples/dot-leaders.html On 3/7/07, Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i don't think you are missing anything. imo what you are proposing in your example is not tabular data at all. it's content followed by a string of dots ending in more content. if you are critized for thinking this is tabular data, then you should be critized; but, if you are being critized for wanting to pursue this type of presentation outside of a table, then i too am critized. dwain On 3/6/07, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The tabular data thread reminds me of one I participated in in another group. The original post was: quote I have a page with a list of officers of an organization. It's an obvious application for a table because that's what tables were designed for. But I wanted it to look the way it did in the printed version, where there was a row of dots leading from the heading to the person's name. For example (and this might not look right depending on your browser or viewer): President..John Smith Vice-president.Janet Jones In other words, the items in the two columns line up horizontally, and the cell on the left is filled out with dots. /quote I'm curious to know what members of this group think about this. Should this be considered tabular data or not? Do you consider a table the best tool to mark this up? Or at least as good as anything else? I'm curious because I've been so much criticized for my view on this that I'd like to know if I'm not missing something... Thanks. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com http://www.tjkdesign.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Dwain Alford wrote: maybe having a set in stone definition of what is tabular data and what isn't would be easier than what we have? if it was easy to come up with a definitive definition, then yes. ok, i'll just splurge out two random things that popped into my head...the way i see it, it's likely to be tabular data if: - the various cells have a clearly defined relationship - moving content from one cell to another changes the *meaning*, not just the way it's laid out on screen P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
David Pietersen wrote: Sorry if this has already come up... but have you seen these? http://www.lenef.com/dotleader/ http://home.tampabay.rr.com/bmerkey/examples/dot-leaders.html I would suggest that the last one was an example of *table* of contents. John Faulds said: I tend to think of tabular data as that which, if you were to pull one row out at random and without reference to the column headings, it wouldn't make a lot of sense. I think we can say that Thierry Koblentz's example is good, because we are assuming we know what the column headings are. Thierry Koblentz's example: President..John Smith Vice-president.Janet Jones I assume that this is a list of positions and their office holders for a particular organisation. But it could be a list of members of an executives association with their positions listed. It could be a list of people vying for particular positions within an organisation eg.: President..John Smith President..Joe Smith So perhaps John Fauld's requirement of headers is a good one!:) I am going for tabulated data because this data is requiring a right tab, though most data we talk about usually requires a left tab, though you could make a strong case for a definition list. Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
ok, i'll bite. how does it change the meaning? i really don't understand what you mean. after reading a later post about screen readers and how they would go crazy with the dots, that i understand; but again, i don't understand your statement about changing the meaning. what is the meaning in this case? dwain On 3/6/07, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dwain Alford wrote: maybe having a set in stone definition of what is tabular data and what isn't would be easier than what we have? if it was easy to come up with a definitive definition, then yes. ok, i'll just splurge out two random things that popped into my head...the way i see it, it's likely to be tabular data if: - the various cells have a clearly defined relationship - moving content from one cell to another changes the *meaning*, not just the way it's laid out on screen P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
Dwain Alford wrote: ok, i'll bite. how does it change the meaning? i really don't understand what you mean. after reading a later post about screen readers and how they would go crazy with the dots, that i understand; but again, i don't understand your statement about changing the meaning. what is the meaning in this case? Why would this even merit a debate? If one wants to choose a definition list for structure, then he has obviously determined that it's logical for his particular application. If one chooses a table, given the relationship Thierry presented, then that logic is also valid. If I had a relational database that joined an employee_name table to a position table, then I might be inclined to use a table and it's no more arguable then if I were creating a static relationship directly on a page and decided to use a definition list. The dots are academic since anyone with a good CSS grounding would deploy them using a background image - not by typing in a bunch of dots :-) Consider this: http://www.projectseven.com/csslab/tables/dotleader/ If Thierry wants to use a definition list, then that's his decision and it's probably not going to end the world. If he wants to debate with someone who's made his own decision to use a table and who, perhaps, simply wants to know a good way to make the dots, then that could be an invitation to a controversy. -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
i don't think you are missing anything. imo what you are proposing Actually I think I was missing something, because in my opinion, this was a no brainer and I didn't expect these answers at all. For me if it fits in a two column table then it's not tabular data. I have a need for a table when it is the only tool that would make sense of the data. Usually that's the way I think about it, if it makes sense only in a table then it's tabular data. I don't think the other way around, I don't leave room for any other consideration. So in short, if it *also* makes sense in a DL or an UL or anything else (without styling), then it is not tabular data. Because only tables can display tabular data. I don't know if you see what I mean though, I may be making this more complicated than it is :) in your example is not tabular data at all. it's content followed by a string of dots ending in more content. if you are critized for thinking this is tabular data, then you should be critized; but, if you are being critized for wanting to pursue this type of presentation outside of a table, then i too am critized. Yes I was criticized for suggesting that a Definition List was may be more appropriate. I'm *really* surprised that so many people on *this* list replied saying that using a table in this case would be ok. Because in my opinion it's not. I'm not saying that people should not use a table for this, I'm just saying that I don't think it is the proper solution in this particular case. And I do think there is a definitive answer :-) Anyway, this was my examples using a Definition List http://www.tjkdesign.com/lab/dot_dl/ http://www.tjkdesign.com/lab/dot_dl/with_no_image.asp Thanks to all who responded --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
thanks for your explanation. dwain On 3/7/07, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i don't think you are missing anything. imo what you are proposing Actually I think I was missing something, because in my opinion, this was a no brainer and I didn't expect these answers at all. For me if it fits in a two column table then it's not tabular data. I have a need for a table when it is the only tool that would make sense of the data. Usually that's the way I think about it, if it makes sense only in a table then it's tabular data. I don't think the other way around, I don't leave room for any other consideration. So in short, if it *also* makes sense in a DL or an UL or anything else (without styling), then it is not tabular data. Because only tables can display tabular data. I don't know if you see what I mean though, I may be making this more complicated than it is :) in your example is not tabular data at all. it's content followed by a string of dots ending in more content. if you are critized for thinking this is tabular data, then you should be critized; but, if you are being critized for wanting to pursue this type of presentation outside of a table, then i too am critized. Yes I was criticized for suggesting that a Definition List was may be more appropriate. I'm *really* surprised that so many people on *this* list replied saying that using a table in this case would be ok. Because in my opinion it's not. I'm not saying that people should not use a table for this, I'm just saying that I don't think it is the proper solution in this particular case. And I do think there is a definitive answer :-) Anyway, this was my examples using a Definition List http://www.tjkdesign.com/lab/dot_dl/ http://www.tjkdesign.com/lab/dot_dl/with_no_image.asp Thanks to all who responded --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
