> Could we get it done by the end of next week? Hi David, I think that's possible. I'd need consensus from those on the list.
Pete David Bolter wrote: > Hi Pete, > > Could we get it done by the end of next week? > I was chatting with Gregory this morning on the #wai-aria channel on > the topic of roles. > > So, we already have IA2_ROLE_NOTE, which is really for: > "A section whose content is parenthetic or ancillary to the main > content of the resource." (aria definition) > > We want to add something like IA2_ROLE_COMPLEMENTARY for: > "Content that is related to the surrounding content within an article > or web page, but could still stand alone." > > So html:aside would map to IA2_ROLE_COMPLEMENTARY given they way > authors are expected to use it. > > How does this sound? > > Aside: I'm curious to know if NVDA would just treat IA2_ROLE_NOTE and > an IA2_ROLE_COMPLEMENTARY the same? > > Cheers, > David > > On 23/11/10 10:49 AM, Pete Brunet wrote: >> We could do a minor release, i.e. from 1.2 to 1.2.1 to add a new role >> constant for IA2_ROLE_NOTE. >> >> The other updates could include: >> - add a new state, IA2_STATE_PINNED >> - fix various doc bugs >> >> Is there a deadline? >> -- >> *Pete Brunet* >> >> a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development >> (512) 238-6967 (work), (512) 689-4155 (cell) >> Skype: pete.brunet >> IM: ptbrunet (AOL, Google), [email protected] (MSN) >> http://www.a11ysoft.com/about/ >> Ionosphere: WS4G >> >> david bolter wrote: >>> >>> Thanks Gregory, >>> >>> It sounds like there are two problems. >>> >>> 1. My proposed description of the IA2_ROLE_NOTE. >>> 2. What desktop role to use for <aside>. >>> >>> I'll gladly recind my proposed definition of the ia2 role given the >>> semantic distinctions you point out. >>> >>> What should I do about #2? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> D >>> >>> On Nov 22, 2010 2:39 PM, "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> > aloha, david! >>> > >>> > i have a BIG problem with the rewording because it warps both the >>> > semantic meaning of the "note" role in ARIA and the ASIDE element >>> > in HTML5, which is analagous to ARIA's "complementary" role >>> > >>> > ARIA defines "note" as: >>> > >>> > QUOTE cite="http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/complete#note"; >>> > A section whose content is parenthetic or ancillary to the main >>> > content of the resource >>> > UNQUOTE >>> > >>> > >>> > ARIA defines "complementary" as: >>> > >>> > QUOTE cite="http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/complete#complementary"; >>> > A supporting section of the document, designed to be complementary to >>> > the main content at a similar level in the DOM hierarchy, but remains >>> > meaningful when separated from the main content. >>> > >>> > There are various types of content that would appropriately have this >>> > role. For example, in the case of a portal, this may include but not >>> > be limited to show times, current weather, related articles, or >>> stocks >>> > to watch. The complementary role indicates that contained content is >>> > relevant to the main content. If the complementary content is >>> > completely separable main content, it may be appropriate to use a >>> more >>> > general role. >>> > >>> > User agents SHOULD treat elements with the role of complementary as >>> > navigational landmarks. >>> > UNQUOTE >>> > >>> > >>> > HTML5 defines ASIDE as: >>> > >>> > QUOTE >>> cite="http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/sections.html#the-aside-element"; >>> > The aside element represents a section of a page that consists of >>> content >>> > that is tangentially related to the content around the aside >>> element, and >>> > which could be considered separate from that content. Such >>> sections are >>> > often represented as sidebars in printed typography. >>> > >>> > The element can be used for typographical effects like pull quotes or >>> > sidebars, for advertising, for groups of nav elements, and for other >>> > content that is considered separate from the main content of the page. >>> > >>> > It's not appropriate to use the aside element just for >>> parentheticals, >>> > since those are part of the main flow of the document. >>> > UNQUOTE >>> > >>> > re-read that last sentence in the ASIDE definition -- "It's not >>> > appropriate to use the aside element just for parentheticals, since >>> > those are part of the main flow of the document." >>> > >>> > i believe this CLEARLY illustrates that the ROLE_NOTE is INAPPROPRIATE >>> > for content which should be contained in an ASIDE or assigned a role >>> > of "complementary" -- a note, on the other hand, contains information >>> > that is parenthetical to the string of content with which it is >>> > associated -- the user should be able to set her AT so that anything >>> > marked as "note" can either be expanded inline, jumped-to via a >>> > linking mechanism or ignored altogether, but a "note" is a commentary >>> > on the text which -- taken in isolation -- is pretty ambiguous >>> compared >>> > to text marked as "complementary" or witin the ASIDE element -- that >>> > text, while it supports the "main" text, can be read in isolation >>> > without reference to the "main" text -- in other words, self-contained >>> > blocks of structured content which can be read in isolation, in tandem >>> > with the "main" content, or ignored, per user need >>> > >>> > aplogies for SHOUTING about this, but i think this is a critical >>> > issue if the IA2_ROLE_NOTE is to be implemented correctly to allow >>> > users to choose exposition options for actual notes (referrential >>> > or annotative) -- the IA2_ROLE_NOTE should NOT be considered the >>> > analogue to the HTML5 element ASIDE (whose closest ARIA analogue >>> > is "complementary") but is an essential part of offering users the >>> > richest, most customizable means of obtaining all of the information >>> > contained in the document, gregory. >>> > ---------------------------------------------------- >>> > The optimist thinks that this is the best of all >>> > possible worlds; the pessimist knows it is. >>> > ---------------------------------------------------- >>> > Gregory J. Rosmaita: [email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>> > Vice-Chair & Webmaster, Open Accessibility Workgroup >>> > http://a11y.org/ http://a11y.org/specs/ >>> > ---------------------------------------------------- >>> > >>> > >>> > ---------- Original Message ----------- >>> > From: David Bolter <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> > To: Richard Schwerdtfeger <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> > Cc: [email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>, >>> > [email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>, >>> > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>, >>> "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> > Sent: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 14:31:46 -0500 >>> > Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE >>> > >>> >> Thanks Rich, >>> >> >>> >> Is anyone opposed to changing the definition to: "A section that >>> >> provides complementary information" ? >>> >> >>> >> Cheers, >>> >> David >>> >> >>> >> On 16/11/10 10:32 AM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote: >>> >> > >>> >> > That is the appropriate role for aside. >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > Rich Schwerdtfeger >>> >> > CTO Accessibility Software Group >>> >> > >>> >> > Inactive hide details for david bolter ---11/15/2010 05:55:01 >>> >> > PM---Well, I think I'm looking for approval to expose the html >>> asdavid >>> >> > bolter ---11/15/2010 05:55:01 PM---Well, I think I'm looking for >>> >> > approval to expose the html aside element with an IA2 note role >>> (in ge >>> >> > >>> >> > From: david bolter <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> >> > To: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> >> > Cc: [email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>, >>> >> > [email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>, >>> >> > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> >> > Date: 11/15/2010 05:55 PM >>> >> > Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE >>> >> > Sent by: [email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > Well, I think I'm looking for approval to expose the html aside >>> >> > element with an IA2 note role (in gecko). >>> >> > >>> >> > It might be problematic to use a brand new role for FF4 since >>> we are >>> >> > API frozen. >>> >> > >>> >> > Cheers, >>> >> > D >>> >> > >>> >> > On Nov 15, 2010 4:20 PM, "Gregory J. Rosmaita" >>> <[email protected]_ >>> >> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: >>> >> > > aloha, brian! >>> >> > > >>> >> > > please refer to my resend of my reply to david: >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> >> > >>> > >>> _https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2010-November/001235.html_ >>> >> > > >>> >> > > for my complete post -- as for using the brackets, that isn't >>> >> > > semantically marking the text as relating to/glossing the >>> quote, but >>> >> > > not part of the quote -- designating a voice characteristics >>> change >>> >> > > for everything in brackets is a rather "gross" tool for this >>> task, >>> >> > > similar to having a voice chars switch for quotation marks, >>> which are >>> >> > > used for a lot more than quotations -- for example, i use CSS >>> to put >>> >> > > text in emphasis quotes by assigning the text to be encased in >>> >> > > air-quotes the element EM >>> >> > > >>> >> > > for more detailed musings (by me and others) on what is >>> lacking in >>> >> > > HTML5's quote element, consult the HTML WG wiki page: >>> >> > > >>> >> > > _http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/MuchAdoAboutQ_ >>> >> > > >>> >> > > gregory. >>> >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >> > > CONSERVATIVE, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, >>> >> > > as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them >>> >> > > with others. -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_ >>> >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >> > > Gregory J. Rosmaita, [email protected]_ >>> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> >> > > Camera Obscura: _http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html_ >>> <http://www.hicom.net/%7Eoedipus/index.html_> >>> >> > <http://www.hicom.net/%7Eoedipus/index.html> >>> >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > ---------- Original Message ----------- >>> >> > > From: Brian Cragun <[email protected]_ >>> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> >>> >> > > To: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <[email protected]_ >>> >> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> >>> >> > > Cc: [email protected]_ >>> >> > <mailto:[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>>, >>> >> > > [email protected]_ >>> >> > <mailto:[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>>, David >>> Bolter >>> >> > > <[email protected]_ <mailto:[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>>>, >>> >> > [email protected]_ <mailto:[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> >> > > Sent: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 14:05:42 -0600 >>> >> > > Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE >>> >> > > >>> >> > >> Hi, >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> Doesn't the demarcation in the text itself provide that context >>> >> > >> inherently? Anyone reading the text would assume that the >>> >> > >> brackets mean there is editor inserted comment. >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> Regards, >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> Brian >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> Brian Cragun >>> >> > >> IBM AbilityLab Consultant >>> >> > >> Human Ability & Accessibility Center >>> >> > >> _www.ibm.com/able_ <http://www.ibm.com/able_> >>> <http://www.ibm.com/able>& _w3.ibm.com/able_ <http://w3.ibm.com/able_> >>> >> > <http://w3.ibm.com/able> >>> >> > >> W:(720)-663-2801 H:(507)288-2437 >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> From: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <[email protected]_ >>> >> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> >>> >> > >> To: David Bolter <[email protected]_ >>> >> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>, >>> >> > >> [email protected]_ >>> >> > <mailto:[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> >> > >> Cc: [email protected]_ >>> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> >> > >> Date: 11/15/2010 01:48 PM >>> >> > >> Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE >>> >> > >> Sent by: [email protected]_ >>> >> > <mailto:[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> aloha, david! >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> actually, i'd argue that the problem is that the concept "note" >>> >> > >> is insufficient for all use cases: >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> 1. there should be a means to distinguish between >>> explanatory notes >>> >> > >> and referential notes; >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> 2. there needs to be a means to convey within semantically >>> demarcated >>> >> > >> quoted text, that a string of text added to contextualize >>> the quote >>> >> > >> is not part of the original quote, but disambiguation text: >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> <q>He [Robert E. Lee] was hamstrung by his [J.E.B. Stuart's] >>> >> > >> absence from the battlefield for the first two days of fighting, >>> >> > >> depriving him [Lee] of the up-to-date intelligence the calvary >>> >> > >> ordinarily provided.</q> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >> > >> CONSERVATIVE, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, >>> >> > >> as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them >>> >> > >> with others. -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_ >>> >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >> > >> Gregory J. Rosmaita, [email protected]_ >>> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> >> > >> Camera Obscura: _http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html_ >>> <http://www.hicom.net/%7Eoedipus/index.html_> >>> >> > <http://www.hicom.net/%7Eoedipus/index.html> >>> >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> ---------- Original Message ----------- >>> >> > >> From: David Bolter <[email protected]_ >>> >> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> >>> >> > >> To: [email protected]_ >>> >> > <mailto:[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> >> > >> Sent: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 13:42:40 -0500 >>> >> > >> Subject: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> > Hi. >>> >> > >> > >>> >> > >> > I think this is the current description of the note role: >>> >> > >> > "An embedded note which is not visible until activated" >>> >> > >> > >>> >> > >> > I wonder if we could change it to: >>> >> > >> > "A section that provides complementary information" >>> >> > >> > >>> >> > >> > This would make it reusable for things like html:aside >>> elements >>> >> > >> > and aria role="note". Thoughts? >>> >> > >> > >>> >> > >> > Cheers, >>> >> > >> > David >>> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > >> > Accessibility-ia2 mailing list >>> >> > >> > [email protected]_ >>> >> > <mailto:[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> >> > >> > _https://lists.linux-_ <https://lists.linux-/> >>> >> > >> > _foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2_ >>> <http://foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2_> >>> >> > <http://foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2> >>> >> > >> ------- End of Original Message ------- >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> > >> Accessibility-ia2 mailing list >>> >> > >> [email protected]_ >>> >> > <mailto:[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> >> > >> _https://lists.linux-_ <https://lists.linux-/> >>> >> > >> _foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2_ >>> <http://foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2_> >>> >> > <http://foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2> >>> >> > > ------- End of Original Message ------- >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > Accessibility-ia2 mailing list >>> >> > [email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>> >> > >>> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2 >>> >> > >>> > ------- End of Original Message ------- >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Accessibility-ia2 mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2 >>> >> >> -- >> *Pete Brunet* >> >> a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development >> (512) 238-6967 (work), (512) 689-4155 (cell) >> Skype: pete.brunet >> IM: ptbrunet (AOL, Google), [email protected] (MSN) >> http://www.a11ysoft.com/about/ >> Ionosphere: WS4G >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Accessibility-ia2 mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2 >> > -- *Pete Brunet* a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development (512) 238-6967 (work), (512) 689-4155 (cell) Skype: pete.brunet IM: ptbrunet (AOL, Google), [email protected] (MSN) http://www.a11ysoft.com/about/ Ionosphere: WS4G
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