Thanks Gregory,
It sounds like there are two problems.
1. My proposed description of the IA2_ROLE_NOTE.
2. What desktop role to use for <aside>.
I'll gladly recind my proposed definition of the ia2 role given the
semantic distinctions you point out.
What should I do about #2?
Cheers,
D
On Nov 22, 2010 2:39 PM, "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> aloha, david!
>
> i have a BIG problem with the rewording because it warps both the
> semantic meaning of the "note" role in ARIA and the ASIDE element
> in HTML5, which is analagous to ARIA's "complementary" role
>
> ARIA defines "note" as:
>
> QUOTE cite="http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/complete#note";
> A section whose content is parenthetic or ancillary to the main
> content of the resource
> UNQUOTE
>
>
> ARIA defines "complementary" as:
>
> QUOTE cite="http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/complete#complementary";
> A supporting section of the document, designed to be complementary to
> the main content at a similar level in the DOM hierarchy, but remains
> meaningful when separated from the main content.
>
> There are various types of content that would appropriately have this
> role. For example, in the case of a portal, this may include but not
> be limited to show times, current weather, related articles, or stocks
> to watch. The complementary role indicates that contained content is
> relevant to the main content. If the complementary content is
> completely separable main content, it may be appropriate to use a more
> general role.
>
> User agents SHOULD treat elements with the role of complementary as
> navigational landmarks.
> UNQUOTE
>
>
> HTML5 defines ASIDE as:
>
> QUOTE
cite="http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/sections.html#the-aside-element";
> The aside element represents a section of a page that consists of
content
> that is tangentially related to the content around the aside
element, and
> which could be considered separate from that content. Such sections
are
> often represented as sidebars in printed typography.
>
> The element can be used for typographical effects like pull quotes or
> sidebars, for advertising, for groups of nav elements, and for other
> content that is considered separate from the main content of the page.
>
> It's not appropriate to use the aside element just for parentheticals,
> since those are part of the main flow of the document.
> UNQUOTE
>
> re-read that last sentence in the ASIDE definition -- "It's not
> appropriate to use the aside element just for parentheticals, since
> those are part of the main flow of the document."
>
> i believe this CLEARLY illustrates that the ROLE_NOTE is INAPPROPRIATE
> for content which should be contained in an ASIDE or assigned a role
> of "complementary" -- a note, on the other hand, contains information
> that is parenthetical to the string of content with which it is
> associated -- the user should be able to set her AT so that anything
> marked as "note" can either be expanded inline, jumped-to via a
> linking mechanism or ignored altogether, but a "note" is a commentary
> on the text which -- taken in isolation -- is pretty ambiguous compared
> to text marked as "complementary" or witin the ASIDE element -- that
> text, while it supports the "main" text, can be read in isolation
> without reference to the "main" text -- in other words, self-contained
> blocks of structured content which can be read in isolation, in tandem
> with the "main" content, or ignored, per user need
>
> aplogies for SHOUTING about this, but i think this is a critical
> issue if the IA2_ROLE_NOTE is to be implemented correctly to allow
> users to choose exposition options for actual notes (referrential
> or annotative) -- the IA2_ROLE_NOTE should NOT be considered the
> analogue to the HTML5 element ASIDE (whose closest ARIA analogue
> is "complementary") but is an essential part of offering users the
> richest, most customizable means of obtaining all of the information
> contained in the document, gregory.
> ----------------------------------------------------
> The optimist thinks that this is the best of all
> possible worlds; the pessimist knows it is.
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Gregory J. Rosmaita: [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
> Vice-Chair & Webmaster, Open Accessibility Workgroup
> http://a11y.org/ http://a11y.org/specs/
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ---------- Original Message -----------
> From: David Bolter <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
> To: Richard Schwerdtfeger <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
> Cc: [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>,
> [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>,
> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>,
"Gregory J. Rosmaita" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> Sent: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 14:31:46 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE
>
>> Thanks Rich,
>>
>> Is anyone opposed to changing the definition to: "A section that
>> provides complementary information" ?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> David
>>
>> On 16/11/10 10:32 AM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
>> >
>> > That is the appropriate role for aside.
>> >
>> >
>> > Rich Schwerdtfeger
>> > CTO Accessibility Software Group
>> >
>> > Inactive hide details for david bolter ---11/15/2010 05:55:01
>> > PM---Well, I think I'm looking for approval to expose the html
asdavid
>> > bolter ---11/15/2010 05:55:01 PM---Well, I think I'm looking for
>> > approval to expose the html aside element with an IA2 note role
(in ge
>> >
>> > From: david bolter <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
>> > To: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
>> > Cc: [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>,
>> > [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>,
>> > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>> > Date: 11/15/2010 05:55 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE
>> > Sent by: [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
>> >
>> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Well, I think I'm looking for approval to expose the html aside
>> > element with an IA2 note role (in gecko).
>> >
>> > It might be problematic to use a brand new role for FF4 since we
are
>> > API frozen.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > D
>> >
>> > On Nov 15, 2010 4:20 PM, "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <[email protected]_
>> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:
>> > > aloha, brian!
>> > >
>> > > please refer to my resend of my reply to david:
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>
_https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2010-November/001235.html_
>> > >
>> > > for my complete post -- as for using the brackets, that isn't
>> > > semantically marking the text as relating to/glossing the
quote, but
>> > > not part of the quote -- designating a voice characteristics
change
>> > > for everything in brackets is a rather "gross" tool for this task,
>> > > similar to having a voice chars switch for quotation marks,
which are
>> > > used for a lot more than quotations -- for example, i use CSS
to put
>> > > text in emphasis quotes by assigning the text to be encased in
>> > > air-quotes the element EM
>> > >
>> > > for more detailed musings (by me and others) on what is lacking in
>> > > HTML5's quote element, consult the HTML WG wiki page:
>> > >
>> > > _http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/MuchAdoAboutQ_
>> > >
>> > > gregory.
>> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > CONSERVATIVE, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils,
>> > > as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them
>> > > with others. -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_
>> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > Gregory J. Rosmaita, [email protected]_
<mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> > > Camera Obscura: _http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html_
<http://www.hicom.net/%7Eoedipus/index.html_>
>> > <http://www.hicom.net/%7Eoedipus/index.html>
>> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ---------- Original Message -----------
>> > > From: Brian Cragun <[email protected]_
<mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>
>> > > To: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <[email protected]_
>> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>
>> > > Cc: [email protected]_
>> > <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>,
>> > > [email protected]_
>> > <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>, David
Bolter
>> > > <[email protected]_ <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>>,
>> > [email protected]_ <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
>> > > Sent: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 14:05:42 -0600
>> > > Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE
>> > >
>> > >> Hi,
>> > >>
>> > >> Doesn't the demarcation in the text itself provide that context
>> > >> inherently? Anyone reading the text would assume that the
>> > >> brackets mean there is editor inserted comment.
>> > >>
>> > >> Regards,
>> > >>
>> > >> Brian
>> > >>
>> > >> Brian Cragun
>> > >> IBM AbilityLab Consultant
>> > >> Human Ability & Accessibility Center
>> > >> _www.ibm.com/able_ <http://www.ibm.com/able_>
<http://www.ibm.com/able>& _w3.ibm.com/able_ <http://w3.ibm.com/able_>
>> > <http://w3.ibm.com/able>
>> > >> W:(720)-663-2801 H:(507)288-2437
>> > >>
>> > >> From: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <[email protected]_
>> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>
>> > >> To: David Bolter <[email protected]_
>> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>,
>> > >> [email protected]_
>> > <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
>> > >> Cc: [email protected]_
<mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> > >> Date: 11/15/2010 01:48 PM
>> > >> Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE
>> > >> Sent by: [email protected]_
>> > <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
>> > >>
>> > >> aloha, david!
>> > >>
>> > >> actually, i'd argue that the problem is that the concept "note"
>> > >> is insufficient for all use cases:
>> > >>
>> > >> 1. there should be a means to distinguish between explanatory
notes
>> > >> and referential notes;
>> > >>
>> > >> 2. there needs to be a means to convey within semantically
demarcated
>> > >> quoted text, that a string of text added to contextualize the
quote
>> > >> is not part of the original quote, but disambiguation text:
>> > >>
>> > >> <q>He [Robert E. Lee] was hamstrung by his [J.E.B. Stuart's]
>> > >> absence from the battlefield for the first two days of fighting,
>> > >> depriving him [Lee] of the up-to-date intelligence the calvary
>> > >> ordinarily provided.</q>
>> > >>
>> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> > >> CONSERVATIVE, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils,
>> > >> as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them
>> > >> with others. -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_
>> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> > >> Gregory J. Rosmaita, [email protected]_
<mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> > >> Camera Obscura: _http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html_
<http://www.hicom.net/%7Eoedipus/index.html_>
>> > <http://www.hicom.net/%7Eoedipus/index.html>
>> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> > >>
>> > >> ---------- Original Message -----------
>> > >> From: David Bolter <[email protected]_
>> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>
>> > >> To: [email protected]_
>> > <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
>> > >> Sent: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 13:42:40 -0500
>> > >> Subject: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE
>> > >>
>> > >> > Hi.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > I think this is the current description of the note role:
>> > >> > "An embedded note which is not visible until activated"
>> > >> >
>> > >> > I wonder if we could change it to:
>> > >> > "A section that provides complementary information"
>> > >> >
>> > >> > This would make it reusable for things like html:aside elements
>> > >> > and aria role="note". Thoughts?
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Cheers,
>> > >> > David
>> > >> > _______________________________________________
>> > >> > Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
>> > >> > [email protected]_
>> > <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
>> > >> > _https://lists.linux-_ <https://lists.linux-/>
>> > >> > _foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2_
<http://foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2_>
>> > <http://foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2>
>> > >> ------- End of Original Message -------
>> > >>
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
>> > >> [email protected]_
>> > <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
>> > >> _https://lists.linux-_ <https://lists.linux-/>
>> > >> _foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2_
<http://foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2_>
>> > <http://foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2>
>> > > ------- End of Original Message -------
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
>> > [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
>> >
https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2
>> >
> ------- End of Original Message -------
>
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