Thanks Gregory, It sounds like there are two problems.
1. My proposed description of the IA2_ROLE_NOTE. 2. What desktop role to use for <aside>. I'll gladly recind my proposed definition of the ia2 role given the semantic distinctions you point out. What should I do about #2? Cheers, D On Nov 22, 2010 2:39 PM, "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <[email protected]> wrote: > aloha, david! > > i have a BIG problem with the rewording because it warps both the > semantic meaning of the "note" role in ARIA and the ASIDE element > in HTML5, which is analagous to ARIA's "complementary" role > > ARIA defines "note" as: > > QUOTE cite="http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/complete#note"; > A section whose content is parenthetic or ancillary to the main > content of the resource > UNQUOTE > > > ARIA defines "complementary" as: > > QUOTE cite="http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/complete#complementary"; > A supporting section of the document, designed to be complementary to > the main content at a similar level in the DOM hierarchy, but remains > meaningful when separated from the main content. > > There are various types of content that would appropriately have this > role. For example, in the case of a portal, this may include but not > be limited to show times, current weather, related articles, or stocks > to watch. The complementary role indicates that contained content is > relevant to the main content. If the complementary content is > completely separable main content, it may be appropriate to use a more > general role. > > User agents SHOULD treat elements with the role of complementary as > navigational landmarks. > UNQUOTE > > > HTML5 defines ASIDE as: > > QUOTE cite="http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/sections.html#the-aside-element"; > The aside element represents a section of a page that consists of content > that is tangentially related to the content around the aside element, and > which could be considered separate from that content. Such sections are > often represented as sidebars in printed typography. > > The element can be used for typographical effects like pull quotes or > sidebars, for advertising, for groups of nav elements, and for other > content that is considered separate from the main content of the page. > > It's not appropriate to use the aside element just for parentheticals, > since those are part of the main flow of the document. > UNQUOTE > > re-read that last sentence in the ASIDE definition -- "It's not > appropriate to use the aside element just for parentheticals, since > those are part of the main flow of the document." > > i believe this CLEARLY illustrates that the ROLE_NOTE is INAPPROPRIATE > for content which should be contained in an ASIDE or assigned a role > of "complementary" -- a note, on the other hand, contains information > that is parenthetical to the string of content with which it is > associated -- the user should be able to set her AT so that anything > marked as "note" can either be expanded inline, jumped-to via a > linking mechanism or ignored altogether, but a "note" is a commentary > on the text which -- taken in isolation -- is pretty ambiguous compared > to text marked as "complementary" or witin the ASIDE element -- that > text, while it supports the "main" text, can be read in isolation > without reference to the "main" text -- in other words, self-contained > blocks of structured content which can be read in isolation, in tandem > with the "main" content, or ignored, per user need > > aplogies for SHOUTING about this, but i think this is a critical > issue if the IA2_ROLE_NOTE is to be implemented correctly to allow > users to choose exposition options for actual notes (referrential > or annotative) -- the IA2_ROLE_NOTE should NOT be considered the > analogue to the HTML5 element ASIDE (whose closest ARIA analogue > is "complementary") but is an essential part of offering users the > richest, most customizable means of obtaining all of the information > contained in the document, gregory. > ---------------------------------------------------- > The optimist thinks that this is the best of all > possible worlds; the pessimist knows it is. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Gregory J. Rosmaita: [email protected] > Vice-Chair & Webmaster, Open Accessibility Workgroup > http://a11y.org/ http://a11y.org/specs/ > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > ---------- Original Message ----------- > From: David Bolter <[email protected]> > To: Richard Schwerdtfeger <[email protected]> > Cc: [email protected], > [email protected], > [email protected], "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <[email protected]> > Sent: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 14:31:46 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE > >> Thanks Rich, >> >> Is anyone opposed to changing the definition to: "A section that >> provides complementary information" ? >> >> Cheers, >> David >> >> On 16/11/10 10:32 AM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote: >> > >> > That is the appropriate role for aside. >> > >> > >> > Rich Schwerdtfeger >> > CTO Accessibility Software Group >> > >> > Inactive hide details for david bolter ---11/15/2010 05:55:01 >> > PM---Well, I think I'm looking for approval to expose the html asdavid >> > bolter ---11/15/2010 05:55:01 PM---Well, I think I'm looking for >> > approval to expose the html aside element with an IA2 note role (in ge >> > >> > From: david bolter <[email protected]> >> > To: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <[email protected]> >> > Cc: [email protected], >> > [email protected], >> > [email protected] >> > Date: 11/15/2010 05:55 PM >> > Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE >> > Sent by: [email protected] >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > >> > >> > >> > Well, I think I'm looking for approval to expose the html aside >> > element with an IA2 note role (in gecko). >> > >> > It might be problematic to use a brand new role for FF4 since we are >> > API frozen. >> > >> > Cheers, >> > D >> > >> > On Nov 15, 2010 4:20 PM, "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <[email protected]_ >> > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> > > aloha, brian! >> > > >> > > please refer to my resend of my reply to david: >> > > >> > > >> > > _ https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2010-November/001235.html_ >> > > >> > > for my complete post -- as for using the brackets, that isn't >> > > semantically marking the text as relating to/glossing the quote, but >> > > not part of the quote -- designating a voice characteristics change >> > > for everything in brackets is a rather "gross" tool for this task, >> > > similar to having a voice chars switch for quotation marks, which are >> > > used for a lot more than quotations -- for example, i use CSS to put >> > > text in emphasis quotes by assigning the text to be encased in >> > > air-quotes the element EM >> > > >> > > for more detailed musings (by me and others) on what is lacking in >> > > HTML5's quote element, consult the HTML WG wiki page: >> > > >> > > _http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/MuchAdoAboutQ_ >> > > >> > > gregory. >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > CONSERVATIVE, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, >> > > as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them >> > > with others. -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_ >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > Gregory J. Rosmaita, [email protected]_ <mailto:[email protected]> >> > > Camera Obscura: _http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html_ >> > <http://www.hicom.net/%7Eoedipus/index.html> >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > >> > > >> > > ---------- Original Message ----------- >> > > From: Brian Cragun <[email protected]_ <mailto:[email protected]>> >> > > To: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <[email protected]_ >> > <mailto:[email protected]>> >> > > Cc: [email protected]_ >> > <mailto:[email protected]>, >> > > [email protected]_ >> > <mailto:[email protected]>, David Bolter >> > > <[email protected]_ <mailto:[email protected]>>, >> > [email protected]_ <mailto:[email protected]> >> > > Sent: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 14:05:42 -0600 >> > > Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE >> > > >> > >> Hi, >> > >> >> > >> Doesn't the demarcation in the text itself provide that context >> > >> inherently? Anyone reading the text would assume that the >> > >> brackets mean there is editor inserted comment. >> > >> >> > >> Regards, >> > >> >> > >> Brian >> > >> >> > >> Brian Cragun >> > >> IBM AbilityLab Consultant >> > >> Human Ability & Accessibility Center >> > >> _www.ibm.com/able_ <http://www.ibm.com/able>& _w3.ibm.com/able_ >> > <http://w3.ibm.com/able> >> > >> W:(720)-663-2801 H:(507)288-2437 >> > >> >> > >> From: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <[email protected]_ >> > <mailto:[email protected]>> >> > >> To: David Bolter <[email protected]_ >> > <mailto:[email protected]>>, >> > >> [email protected]_ >> > <mailto:[email protected]> >> > >> Cc: [email protected]_ <mailto:[email protected]> >> > >> Date: 11/15/2010 01:48 PM >> > >> Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE >> > >> Sent by: [email protected]_ >> > <mailto:[email protected]> >> > >> >> > >> aloha, david! >> > >> >> > >> actually, i'd argue that the problem is that the concept "note" >> > >> is insufficient for all use cases: >> > >> >> > >> 1. there should be a means to distinguish between explanatory notes >> > >> and referential notes; >> > >> >> > >> 2. there needs to be a means to convey within semantically demarcated >> > >> quoted text, that a string of text added to contextualize the quote >> > >> is not part of the original quote, but disambiguation text: >> > >> >> > >> <q>He [Robert E. Lee] was hamstrung by his [J.E.B. Stuart's] >> > >> absence from the battlefield for the first two days of fighting, >> > >> depriving him [Lee] of the up-to-date intelligence the calvary >> > >> ordinarily provided.</q> >> > >> >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> CONSERVATIVE, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, >> > >> as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them >> > >> with others. -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_ >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> Gregory J. Rosmaita, [email protected]_ <mailto:[email protected]> >> > >> Camera Obscura: _http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html_ >> > <http://www.hicom.net/%7Eoedipus/index.html> >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> >> > >> ---------- Original Message ----------- >> > >> From: David Bolter <[email protected]_ >> > <mailto:[email protected]>> >> > >> To: [email protected]_ >> > <mailto:[email protected]> >> > >> Sent: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 13:42:40 -0500 >> > >> Subject: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE >> > >> >> > >> > Hi. >> > >> > >> > >> > I think this is the current description of the note role: >> > >> > "An embedded note which is not visible until activated" >> > >> > >> > >> > I wonder if we could change it to: >> > >> > "A section that provides complementary information" >> > >> > >> > >> > This would make it reusable for things like html:aside elements >> > >> > and aria role="note". Thoughts? >> > >> > >> > >> > Cheers, >> > >> > David >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > >> > Accessibility-ia2 mailing list >> > >> > [email protected]_ >> > <mailto:[email protected]> >> > >> > _https://lists.linux-_ <https://lists.linux-/> >> > >> > _foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2_ >> > <http://foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2> >> > >> ------- End of Original Message ------- >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> Accessibility-ia2 mailing list >> > >> [email protected]_ >> > <mailto:[email protected]> >> > >> _https://lists.linux-_ <https://lists.linux-/> >> > >> _foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2_ >> > <http://foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2> >> > > ------- End of Original Message ------- >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > Accessibility-ia2 mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2 >> > > ------- End of Original Message ------- >
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