aloha, david!
thanks for taking this particular bull by the horns... for what it
is worth, i am in complete accord with IA2_ROLE_COMPLEMENTARY handling
both the role "complementary" and the HTML5 element ASIDE
one point about IA2_ROLE_NOTE: i believe that it is robust enough to
accommodate both annotative and referential notes -- both function in
the same manner, and exposition or notification of both types of notes
should be handled in an identical manner, leaving it to the the AT,
UA or other app to filter between annotative and referential notes...
just my recently de-valued 2 U.S. cents, gregory.
-------------------------------------------------------------
ADVICE, n. The smallest common coin.
-- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
-------------------------------------------------------------
Gregory J. Rosmaita, [email protected]
Camera Obscura: http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html
-------------------------------------------------------------
---------- Original Message -----------
From: David Bolter <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Sent: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 09:38:09 -0500
Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE
> Hi Pete,
>
> Could we get it done by the end of next week?
> I was chatting with Gregory this morning on the #wai-aria
> channel on the topic of roles.
>
> So, we already have IA2_ROLE_NOTE, which is really for:
> "A section whose content is parenthetic or ancillary to the main
> content of the resource." (aria definition)
>
> We want to add something like IA2_ROLE_COMPLEMENTARY for:
> "Content that is related to the surrounding content within an
> article or web page, but could still stand alone."
>
> So html:aside would map to IA2_ROLE_COMPLEMENTARY given they way
> authors are expected to use it.
>
> How does this sound?
>
> Aside: I'm curious to know if NVDA would just treat
> IA2_ROLE_NOTE and an IA2_ROLE_COMPLEMENTARY the same?
>
> Cheers,
> David
>
> On 23/11/10 10:49 AM, Pete Brunet wrote:
> > We could do a minor release, i.e. from 1.2 to 1.2.1 to add a new role
> > constant for IA2_ROLE_NOTE.
> >
> > The other updates could include:
> > - add a new state, IA2_STATE_PINNED
> > - fix various doc bugs
> >
> > Is there a deadline?
> > --
> > *Pete Brunet*
> >
> > a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development
> > (512) 238-6967 (work), (512) 689-4155 (cell)
> > Skype: pete.brunet
> > IM: ptbrunet (AOL, Google), [email protected] (MSN)
> > http://www.a11ysoft.com/about/
> > Ionosphere: WS4G
> >
> > david bolter wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks Gregory,
> >>
> >> It sounds like there are two problems.
> >>
> >> 1. My proposed description of the IA2_ROLE_NOTE.
> >> 2. What desktop role to use for <aside>.
> >>
> >> I'll gladly recind my proposed definition of the ia2 role given the
> >> semantic distinctions you point out.
> >>
> >> What should I do about #2?
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> D
> >>
> >> On Nov 22, 2010 2:39 PM, "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <[email protected]
> >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> >> > aloha, david!
> >> >
> >> > i have a BIG problem with the rewording because it warps both the
> >> > semantic meaning of the "note" role in ARIA and the ASIDE element
> >> > in HTML5, which is analagous to ARIA's "complementary" role
> >> >
> >> > ARIA defines "note" as:
> >> >
> >> > QUOTE cite="http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/complete#note";
> >> > A section whose content is parenthetic or ancillary to the main
> >> > content of the resource
> >> > UNQUOTE
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ARIA defines "complementary" as:
> >> >
> >> > QUOTE cite="http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/complete#complementary";
> >> > A supporting section of the document, designed to be complementary to
> >> > the main content at a similar level in the DOM hierarchy, but remains
> >> > meaningful when separated from the main content.
> >> >
> >> > There are various types of content that would appropriately have this
> >> > role. For example, in the case of a portal, this may include but not
> >> > be limited to show times, current weather, related articles, or stocks
> >> > to watch. The complementary role indicates that contained content is
> >> > relevant to the main content. If the complementary content is
> >> > completely separable main content, it may be appropriate to use a more
> >> > general role.
> >> >
> >> > User agents SHOULD treat elements with the role of complementary as
> >> > navigational landmarks.
> >> > UNQUOTE
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > HTML5 defines ASIDE as:
> >> >
> >> > QUOTE
> >> cite="http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/sections.html#the-aside-element";
> >> > The aside element represents a section of a page that consists of
> >> content
> >> > that is tangentially related to the content around the aside
> >> element, and
> >> > which could be considered separate from that content. Such sections
> >> are
> >> > often represented as sidebars in printed typography.
> >> >
> >> > The element can be used for typographical effects like pull quotes or
> >> > sidebars, for advertising, for groups of nav elements, and for other
> >> > content that is considered separate from the main content of the page.
> >> >
> >> > It's not appropriate to use the aside element just for parentheticals,
> >> > since those are part of the main flow of the document.
> >> > UNQUOTE
> >> >
> >> > re-read that last sentence in the ASIDE definition -- "It's not
> >> > appropriate to use the aside element just for parentheticals, since
> >> > those are part of the main flow of the document."
> >> >
> >> > i believe this CLEARLY illustrates that the ROLE_NOTE is INAPPROPRIATE
> >> > for content which should be contained in an ASIDE or assigned a role
> >> > of "complementary" -- a note, on the other hand, contains information
> >> > that is parenthetical to the string of content with which it is
> >> > associated -- the user should be able to set her AT so that anything
> >> > marked as "note" can either be expanded inline, jumped-to via a
> >> > linking mechanism or ignored altogether, but a "note" is a commentary
> >> > on the text which -- taken in isolation -- is pretty ambiguous compared
> >> > to text marked as "complementary" or witin the ASIDE element -- that
> >> > text, while it supports the "main" text, can be read in isolation
> >> > without reference to the "main" text -- in other words, self-contained
> >> > blocks of structured content which can be read in isolation, in tandem
> >> > with the "main" content, or ignored, per user need
> >> >
> >> > aplogies for SHOUTING about this, but i think this is a critical
> >> > issue if the IA2_ROLE_NOTE is to be implemented correctly to allow
> >> > users to choose exposition options for actual notes (referrential
> >> > or annotative) -- the IA2_ROLE_NOTE should NOT be considered the
> >> > analogue to the HTML5 element ASIDE (whose closest ARIA analogue
> >> > is "complementary") but is an essential part of offering users the
> >> > richest, most customizable means of obtaining all of the information
> >> > contained in the document, gregory.
> >> > ----------------------------------------------------
> >> > The optimist thinks that this is the best of all
> >> > possible worlds; the pessimist knows it is.
> >> > ----------------------------------------------------
> >> > Gregory J. Rosmaita: [email protected]
> >> <mailto:[email protected]>
> >> > Vice-Chair & Webmaster, Open Accessibility Workgroup
> >> > http://a11y.org/ http://a11y.org/specs/
> >> > ----------------------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ---------- Original Message -----------
> >> > From: David Bolter <[email protected]
> >> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> >> > To: Richard Schwerdtfeger <[email protected]
> >> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> >> > Cc: [email protected]
> >> <mailto:[email protected]>,
> >> > [email protected]
> >> <mailto:[email protected]>,
> >> > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>,
> >> "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> >> > Sent: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 14:31:46 -0500
> >> > Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE
> >> >
> >> >> Thanks Rich,
> >> >>
> >> >> Is anyone opposed to changing the definition to: "A section that
> >> >> provides complementary information" ?
> >> >>
> >> >> Cheers,
> >> >> David
> >> >>
> >> >> On 16/11/10 10:32 AM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > That is the appropriate role for aside.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Rich Schwerdtfeger
> >> >> > CTO Accessibility Software Group
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Inactive hide details for david bolter ---11/15/2010 05:55:01
> >> >> > PM---Well, I think I'm looking for approval to expose the html
> >> asdavid
> >> >> > bolter ---11/15/2010 05:55:01 PM---Well, I think I'm looking for
> >> >> > approval to expose the html aside element with an IA2 note role
> >> (in ge
> >> >> >
> >> >> > From: david bolter <[email protected]
> >> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> >> >> > To: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <[email protected]
> >> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> >> >> > Cc: [email protected]
> >> <mailto:[email protected]>,
> >> >> > [email protected]
> >> <mailto:[email protected]>,
> >> >> > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> >> >> > Date: 11/15/2010 05:55 PM
> >> >> > Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE
> >> >> > Sent by: [email protected]
> >> <mailto:[email protected]>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Well, I think I'm looking for approval to expose the html aside
> >> >> > element with an IA2 note role (in gecko).
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It might be problematic to use a brand new role for FF4 since we
> >> are
> >> >> > API frozen.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Cheers,
> >> >> > D
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Nov 15, 2010 4:20 PM, "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <[email protected]_
> >> >> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:
> >> >> > > aloha, brian!
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > please refer to my resend of my reply to david:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >
> >>
_https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2010-November/001235.html_
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > for my complete post -- as for using the brackets, that isn't
> >> >> > > semantically marking the text as relating to/glossing the
> >> quote, but
> >> >> > > not part of the quote -- designating a voice characteristics
> >> change
> >> >> > > for everything in brackets is a rather "gross" tool for this task,
> >> >> > > similar to having a voice chars switch for quotation marks,
> >> which are
> >> >> > > used for a lot more than quotations -- for example, i use CSS
> >> to put
> >> >> > > text in emphasis quotes by assigning the text to be encased in
> >> >> > > air-quotes the element EM
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > for more detailed musings (by me and others) on what is lacking in
> >> >> > > HTML5's quote element, consult the HTML WG wiki page:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > _http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/MuchAdoAboutQ_
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > gregory.
> >> >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > > CONSERVATIVE, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils,
> >> >> > > as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them
> >> >> > > with others. -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_
> >> >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > > Gregory J. Rosmaita, [email protected]_
> >> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> >> >> > > Camera Obscura: _http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html_
> >> <http://www.hicom.net/%7Eoedipus/index.html_>
> >> >> > <http://www.hicom.net/%7Eoedipus/index.html>
> >> >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > ---------- Original Message -----------
> >> >> > > From: Brian Cragun <[email protected]_
> >> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>
> >> >> > > To: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <[email protected]_
> >> >> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>
> >> >> > > Cc: [email protected]_
> >> >> > <mailto:[email protected]
> >> <mailto:[email protected]>>,
> >> >> > > [email protected]_
> >> >> > <mailto:[email protected]
> >> <mailto:[email protected]>>, David
> >> Bolter
> >> >> > > <[email protected]_ <mailto:[email protected]
> >> <mailto:[email protected]>>>,
> >> >> > [email protected]_ <mailto:[email protected]
> >> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> >> >> > > Sent: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 14:05:42 -0600
> >> >> > > Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >> Hi,
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> Doesn't the demarcation in the text itself provide that context
> >> >> > >> inherently? Anyone reading the text would assume that the
> >> >> > >> brackets mean there is editor inserted comment.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> Regards,
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> Brian
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> Brian Cragun
> >> >> > >> IBM AbilityLab Consultant
> >> >> > >> Human Ability & Accessibility Center
> >> >> > >> _www.ibm.com/able_ <http://www.ibm.com/able_>
> >> <http://www.ibm.com/able>& _w3.ibm.com/able_ <http://w3.ibm.com/able_>
> >> >> > <http://w3.ibm.com/able>
> >> >> > >> W:(720)-663-2801 H:(507)288-2437
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> From: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <[email protected]_
> >> >> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>
> >> >> > >> To: David Bolter <[email protected]_
> >> >> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>,
> >> >> > >> [email protected]_
> >> >> > <mailto:[email protected]
> >> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> >> >> > >> Cc: [email protected]_
> >> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> >> >> > >> Date: 11/15/2010 01:48 PM
> >> >> > >> Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE
> >> >> > >> Sent by: [email protected]_
> >> >> > <mailto:[email protected]
> >> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> aloha, david!
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> actually, i'd argue that the problem is that the concept "note"
> >> >> > >> is insufficient for all use cases:
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> 1. there should be a means to distinguish between explanatory
> >> notes
> >> >> > >> and referential notes;
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> 2. there needs to be a means to convey within semantically
> >> demarcated
> >> >> > >> quoted text, that a string of text added to contextualize the
> >> quote
> >> >> > >> is not part of the original quote, but disambiguation text:
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> <q>He [Robert E. Lee] was hamstrung by his [J.E.B. Stuart's]
> >> >> > >> absence from the battlefield for the first two days of fighting,
> >> >> > >> depriving him [Lee] of the up-to-date intelligence the calvary
> >> >> > >> ordinarily provided.</q>
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > >> CONSERVATIVE, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils,
> >> >> > >> as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them
> >> >> > >> with others. -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_
> >> >> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > >> Gregory J. Rosmaita, [email protected]_
> >> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> >> >> > >> Camera Obscura: _http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html_
> >> <http://www.hicom.net/%7Eoedipus/index.html_>
> >> >> > <http://www.hicom.net/%7Eoedipus/index.html>
> >> >> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> ---------- Original Message -----------
> >> >> > >> From: David Bolter <[email protected]_
> >> >> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>
> >> >> > >> To: [email protected]_
> >> >> > <mailto:[email protected]
> >> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> >> >> > >> Sent: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 13:42:40 -0500
> >> >> > >> Subject: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2_ROLE_NOTE
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> > Hi.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > I think this is the current description of the note role:
> >> >> > >> > "An embedded note which is not visible until activated"
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > I wonder if we could change it to:
> >> >> > >> > "A section that provides complementary information"
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > This would make it reusable for things like html:aside elements
> >> >> > >> > and aria role="note". Thoughts?
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > Cheers,
> >> >> > >> > David
> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> > >> > Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
> >> >> > >> > [email protected]_
> >> >> > <mailto:[email protected]
> >> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> >> >> > >> > _https://lists.linux-_ <https://lists.linux-/>
> >> >> > >> > _foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2_
> >> <http://foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2_>
> >> >> > <http://foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2>
> >> >> > >> ------- End of Original Message -------
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> > >> Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
> >> >> > >> [email protected]_
> >> >> > <mailto:[email protected]
> >> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> >> >> > >> _https://lists.linux-_ <https://lists.linux-/>
> >> >> > >> _foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2_
> >> <http://foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2_>
> >> >> > <http://foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2>
> >> >> > > ------- End of Original Message -------
> >> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> >> > Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
> >> >> > [email protected]
> >> <mailto:[email protected]>
> >> >> >
> >> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2
> >> >> >
> >> > ------- End of Original Message -------
> >> >
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
> >> [email protected]
> >> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2
> >>
> >
> > --
> > *Pete Brunet*
> >
> > a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development
> > (512) 238-6967 (work), (512) 689-4155 (cell)
> > Skype: pete.brunet
> > IM: ptbrunet (AOL, Google), [email protected] (MSN)
> > http://www.a11ysoft.com/about/
> > Ionosphere: WS4G
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
> > [email protected]
> > https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2
------- End of Original Message -------
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